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Old 1st February 2019, 09:27 PM   #121
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have to take back what I said. You were talking about the US Constitution rather than rights generally. My points were unrelated to the constitution amd are not an answer to your questions.
I don't think it's an answer or point that is serious in any way. It's emblematic of how you conduct yourself on the forum. You stretch every point beyond honest analysis down the rabbit hole to the ridiculous.
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Old 1st February 2019, 09:30 PM   #122
Kid Eager
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Are you really interested in simply debating the construction that if the premises I state are true that my conclusion is true? It seems that the whole source of disagreement is we accept different things as self evidently true. I don't think we can debate that because they are self evident.
It's not clear that you hold the things you say to be true, as the assertions exist in isolation and do not reflect a consistent set of truths that would appear to belong to a single mind, unless the truth being evidenced was a desire to be a contrarian...

Anyhow, back to the topic of the thread: mandatory voting seems to work where it is used. If there's a refutation supported by evidence, I'm willing to consider the counter-claim.
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Old 1st February 2019, 09:37 PM   #123
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think it's an answer or point that is serious in any way. It's emblematic of how you conduct yourself on the forum. You stretch every point beyond honest analysis down the rabbit hole to the ridiculous.
I have no objection to ridiculous ideas.
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Old 1st February 2019, 09:38 PM   #124
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
It's not clear that you hold the things you say to be true, as the assertions exist in isolation and do not reflect a consistent set of truths that would appear to belong to a single mind, unless the truth being evidenced was a desire to be a contrarian...

Anyhow, back to the topic of the thread: mandatory voting seems to work where it is used. If there's a refutation supported by evidence, I'm willing to consider the counter-claim.
This goes back to what I asked earlier. What is the objective of having voting? Only then can we assess if it works. It depends a lot of voting is an ends or a means. I see it as an ends to itself.
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Old 1st February 2019, 09:46 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This goes back to what I asked earlier. What is the objective of having voting? Only then can we assess if it works. It depends a lot of voting is an ends or a means. I see it as an ends to itself.
Explain
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Old 1st February 2019, 10:23 PM   #126
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Explain
Let's take one possible purpose for voting which is to produce choices that reflect the preferences of the population. Voting is not a random sample of the population. So each sample is skewed to some degree. Since not every person gets off a holiday, that is skewing the voting group from the population. We would actually have to measure which is less skewed. More voters doesn't absolutely mean more representative of the population.

And that doesn't even touch upon if that purpose actually varies with intensity of dwellings by voters.

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Old 1st February 2019, 11:50 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Let's take one possible purpose for voting which is to produce choices that reflect the preferences of the population. Voting is not a random sample of the population. So each sample is skewed to some degree. Since not every person gets off a holiday, that is skewing the voting group from the population. We would actually have to measure which is less skewed. More voters doesn't absolutely mean more representative of the population.

And that doesn't even touch upon if that purpose actually varies with intensity of dwellings by voters.
How about making voting day on the weekend, like a Saturday. That tends to eliminate any possibility of bias due to inability to attend in person. Another method is to make pre-polling and mail voting (i.e. absentee voting) readily available and well managed.
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Old 1st February 2019, 11:53 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
More voters doesn't absolutely mean more representative of the population.
Whoah! Want to rethink that a bit?

Surely the ultimate goal of truly representative voting is for 100% of eligible voters to cast a valid vote on measures or elections and have them counted. Everybody gets their voice heard.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 12:15 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why not do what Australia does and make it illegal NOT to vote. That will increase turnout.
Again? How many times does this have to be refuted.

All you have to do is get your name crossed off the list at the polling booth.

Voting is not compulsory.

Attendance (on election day) is not compulsory if you send in a postal vote, or complete a pre-poll vote at a pre-polling station.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 12:16 AM   #130
Kid Eager
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Let's take one possible purpose for voting which is to produce choices that reflect the preferences of the population. Voting is not a random sample of the population. So each sample is skewed to some degree. Since not every person gets off a holiday, that is skewing the voting group from the population. We would actually have to measure which is less skewed. More voters doesn't absolutely mean more representative of the population.

And that doesn't even touch upon if that purpose actually varies with intensity of dwellings by voters.
Therefore the purpose of voting is not realised if there is not mandatory voting. There is, however, no uncertainty of purpose, so the proposition that it's a means unto itself is not supported by the evidence.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:00 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I used to be on the "let's all vote by mail" camp, but after all this NC absentee ballot shenanigans (where a GOP operative was illegally collecting ballots and changing/destroying them), I think I do prefer in person voting. There's much less chance of someone secretly intercepting or otherwise spoiling a ballot when in person. There's really no way to guarantee that a mail ballot is also a secret ballot (say, an abusive spouse checking to make sure the battered spouse votes the "right" way). When you vote in person, secrecy is easy to accomplish.
Absentee ballots/ballots by mail have always been notably more susceptible to abuse and fraud than in person voting, incidentally. That the GOP was specifically and pointedly pushing laws that only really targeted in person voting (the least abusable method of voting on the voters side) and largely completely ignored absentee ballots (the most abusable method of voting on the voters side) was one of the really, really big red flags when it came to how truthful they were being about wanting to address voter fraud. It was just one of the many cases where I would have been far more sympathetic to their causes if they actually proposed meaningful solutions (even if they could reasonably be considered preemptive solutions to prospective problems, rather than addressing something that they couldn't even show was actually happening in the first place, let alone in any meaningful numbers in the first place).


Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I also think voting holiday won't help much, except for government workers. Holidays in the US have a way of rapidly becoming big retail events. Making it a holiday would probably actually make it harder for many workers to make it, as demand would be high to man a cash register during the big "election day sale". People that can't be bothered to engage in democracy have no problem lining up on the sidewalk at 3am for a discount TV.
I like the idea of a voting holiday, in general, but... yes, indeed. The impact would inevitably be somewhat mixed. It would make it easier to for some categories of workers to vote (manufacturing, for example), potentially harder for others (retail, as you mentioned), and have likely little effect on others (fast food, perhaps).

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Early voting is the best option IMO. Assuming the polls are open into the evenings and weekends for a couple weeks and polling locations are numerous and convenient, nearly everyone will be able to cast a ballot quickly and conveniently. I voted early this time and had no wait. It's great.
Early voting even helps to reduce the impact of less accessible voting locations and... machine malfunctions. As for waits... I, at least, have been lucky enough to generally have no or very little wait time. It is indeed very nice.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I just want to add that voter turnout is largely a problem of voter apathy. Sure, many states play corrupt games in order to reduce turnout, but voter disengagement is the larger issue. Voters simply choose not to vote.
I'll certainly agree here. That's likely the number 1 overall issue when it comes to voting. Of course, there's also sometimes an issue of awareness in the first place. It's been less problematic for the last couple years, but... it wasn't so long ago that I didn't really even know that there were elections held other than the midterms and the Presidential elections. I vote in all the elections that I know of these days, but... in the past, there have been elections that I opted out on voting because I didn't know pretty much anything about any of the people on the ballot, and I can certainly respect the choices of others who don't want to vote without sufficient information. On the other hand, there were a bunch of elections that I didn't vote in because I didn't even know that they were happening. That's a problem that I suspect is rather widespread. For the last couple years, when an election day's coming up, I tend to mention that it's coming up at work to co-workers and there are a sizable number of people that didn't know it was coming up at all.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I haven't seen the McConnell quote in context, but as I understand it, the bill includes other matters, such as matching small donations (using public funds? not sure) for Congressional candidates. That is clearly going to benefit Dems more than Republicans and I can see why that's controversial.
The bill itself is more of a wishlist of anti-corruption and anti-GOP voting obstruction measures than anything else (it's very pointedly in favor of working democracy, in short), given McConnell's entirely predictable refusal to allow it to even get a vote. Yes, though, it would definitely help the Democrats a LOT more than the GOP, much like pretty much every actually effective pro-Democracy measure would, given the present state of things. Much of what it's pushing is really all about shifting power back towards the people and out of corporate/very very rich hands, after all. Incidentally, effectively pro-oligarchy measures are the ones that help the present GOP.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
If McConnell really meant that the national holiday for voting should not be acceptable because more voters means more Democratic votes, then shame on him. Those who choose to vote should have ample opportunity to do so.
Mmm. His criticisms seemed to be more related to the holiday stuff were more on the financial and federal workers don't need more time off sides of things.

Quote:
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell called efforts by House Democrats to make Election Day a federal holiday a "power grab" by Democrats. McConnell was criticizing H.R. 1, the far-reaching bill that Democrats have made the center of their agenda since taking the House. The bill is focused on voting, campaign finance and ethics reform.

The bill would make Election Day a holiday for federal workers, and would encourage private employers to do the same. McConnell said on the Senate floor Wednesday that Democrats "want taxpayers on the hook for generous new benefits for federal bureaucrats and government employees," including a "new paid holiday for government workers." These comments were made the week after 800,000 federal employees across the country were finally back to work after 35 days of having been furloughed or forced to work without pay during the government shutdown.

The bill also attempts to dismantle barriers to voting with measures such as automatic voter registration and re-enfranchising felons who have completed their sentences. It would also allow federal workers six days off to work at polling places, which McConnell particularly criticized.
With that said, one of the fairly widely recognized truths in US Politics for a several decades is that more people voting, in general, means that Democrats benefit more (numerically, Democrats have been much more numerous than Republicans, but less likely to vote/more easily discouraged from voting). Hence the numerous and consistent voter suppression and reduction tactics by the GOP and hence the numerous and consistent efforts to do the opposite by the Democrats. Given McConnell and many Republicans' comments in the past, it's not a particularly far-fetched interpretation to say that McConnell mostly just doesn't want more Democrats voting.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:40 AM   #132
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Of course we should have mandatory voting. Let's address a couple of the popular counterarguments.

1) Compulsory voting is a violation of liberty

Should the government be allowed to force us to do something we otherwise do not want to do? Whenever I've asked anyone if they'd prefer to vote or pay taxes, they always choose the former. What about jury duty, which is theoretically compulsory and far more burdensome? Yes, the government can force us to do things, but it needs a good reason. Let's table this until we get to the positive arguments.

2) People will vote randomly/carelessly

Random votes will largely cancel each other out because of the law of large numbers.

2b) People will vote in a manner that is racist and/or sexist

I had a friend who refused to vote for anyone with a "foreign" sounding name or a female with a hyphenated last name. Some people will vote in racist and sexist ways. It's not like this happens already. At some point, you get the leaders you deserve.

3) My vote will not make a difference

This is true. You are more likely to get hurt or die on your way to the polling place than to cast a vote that alters the outcome of the election (unless you live in some bumble**** town of seven people where your wife and sister are running -- and they're the same person). Rationally speaking, your vote will NOT make a difference. And that's precisely why we should compel everyone to vote.

The Case for Mandatory Voting

1) Civic Duty

We want citizens to change things peacefully at the ballot box rather than violently in the street. It's funny how the people who oppose mandatory voting tend to support selective service. Actually, it's not funny. It's not right that some Americans go to the polls while others free-ride off our brilliant choice of leaders. Again, voting should be mandatory precisely because your one vote does not make a difference.

2) Representative Outcome

What kind of people do you find at the polling place? That's right, old people. I read somewhere that the average age of the American voter is deceased. Do old people get anything from the government? They certainly do. Do eighteen year-olds get anything from the government? Well, you can get sent off to die in a war. Suppose you oppose the war. Great! Go cast your single vote that makes no difference. Your friends have to go and vote, but they won't because they're too busy.

A mandatory vote gives us more information about who stands where. It's difficult to interpret the positions of non-voters. Did they not vote because they agree with the direction of the country? Did they not vote as a form of protest?

3) Confers Greater Legitimacy on the Victor

If barely more than half of the population bothers to vote, and less than half of them vote for the eventual winner, what kind of legitimacy is that? At the time of Puerto Rico's last major referendum, most people supported statehood. Did the anti statehood urge residents to go out and vote? No, they told them to go to the beach. Or stay in-doors. Do anything but vote. What's this going to do to the pro-statehood vote? Depress it. Then when statehood gets a majority, the other-side can say, "Well, only X percent even bothered to go and vote, and it would be wrong to entrust such an important decision to anything but a super-majority."

4) You don't actually have to vote

It's a secret ballot. You're not being forced to support any candidate or policy. You can void your ballot.

5) Campaigns will waste less time, energy, and money "getting out the vote."

This frees campaigns to spend more time discussing issues rather than mobilizing voters.

Additional Complaints

1) Fines will disproportionately hurt the poor.

Yes. This sucks.

2) Some people are too old or too young to be forced to vote

Good point. In many countries voting is only mandatory for people who are 18-65. If you're over 65, don't bother. If you're 16, then you should have the right to vote, but we're not going to force you to participate.

3) Democrats will win more elections

Ah, yes, the real reason you oppose mandatory voting. It's also the real reason you support the Electoral College. Because it helps your side.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 04:33 AM   #133
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From here:

Arguments used in favour of compulsory voting

Voting is a civic duty comparable to other duties citizens perform e.g. taxation, compulsory education, jury duty
Teaches the benefits of political participation
Parliament reflects more accurately the "will of the electorate"
Governments must consider the total electorate in policy formulation and management
Candidates can concentrate their campaigning energies on issues rather than encouraging voters to attend the poll
The voter isn't actually compelled to vote for anyone because voting is by secret ballot.

Arguments used against compulsory voting:

It is undemocratic to force people to vote – an infringement of liberty
The ill informed and those with little interest in politics are forced to the polls
It may increase the number of "donkey votes"
It may increase the number of informal votes
It increases the number of safe, single-member electorates – political parties then concentrate on the more marginal electorates
Resources must be allocated to determine whether those who failed to vote have "valid and sufficient" reasons.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 04:59 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The Turtle says: Its wrong to actually let people vote because it harms republicans.

From: https://www.vox.com/2019/1/30/182039...ederal-holiday
McConnell took to the Senate floor Wednesday to rail against HR 1, the sweeping anti-corruption proposal House Democrats have put forward as their first bill in the majority. Among many other measures, it proposes making Election Day a federal holiday and encourages private sector businesses to do the same. McConnell, who calls the bill the “Democratic Politician Protection Act,” sees that as a “power grab.”

The democrats want to make election day a holiday because many non-voters claim they can't vote because other responsibilities (work, family care) get in the way. This can have a slightly bigger impact on minorities because they often have less flexibility with their work hours, and lack a vehicle for transportation to the polling stations.

The republicans fear that if they make election day a holiday it will undo some of their voter suppression efforts.
Thanks for reminding me what I love about Australia.

Voting is compulsory.
Voting is on a Saturday
There is always a sausage sizzle at the voting booths.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 05:35 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Therefore the purpose of voting is not realised if there is not mandatory voting. There is, however, no uncertainty of purpose, so the proposition that it's a means unto itself is not supported by the evidence.
Do you even read what I write? I discussed one possible purpose and one possible proposal discussed here as an example of how to consider them. I was not trying to say something about any one proposal and I certainly wasn't advocating for what I think the purpose of voting is.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 05:41 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
How about making voting day on the weekend, like a Saturday. That tends to eliminate any possibility of bias due to inability to attend in person. Another method is to make pre-polling and mail voting (i.e. absentee voting) readily available and well managed.
....I'm not arguing for or against a policy. It was a demonstration of how we need to know a person's objective before we can assess if the proposals here accomplish it. So your counter proposals are aimed at the wrong person because I wasn't arguing the merits of a proposal.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 05:59 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Again? How many times does this have to be refuted.

All you have to do is get your name crossed off the list at the polling booth.

Voting is not compulsory.

Attendance (on election day) is not compulsory if you send in a postal vote, or complete a pre-poll vote at a pre-polling station.
How is that a refutation?

The fact is that for the vast majority, once they are there at the polling booth, they decide they do want to vote.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 06:05 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Are you really interested in simply debating the construction that if the premises I state are true that my conclusion is true? It seems that the whole source of disagreement is we accept different things as self evidently true. I don't think we can debate that because they are self evident.
I have no opinion about that.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 07:42 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's a stretch on both Amendments. I wouldn't even consider mandatory voting if Republicans weren't trying to disenfranchise voters as a political strategy. How about automatic voter registration then? Would you be opposed to that?
I think the first amendment argument is stronger than the 4th. The 4th only comes into play if who voted becomes public information. The general public has no right, for example, to know if I filed a tax return.

I've got no problem with things like Motor Voter, so long as they do it better than we do it here in Texas. When I moved here from CA, my request was never processed. Had to fill out the form and mail it in. States with income tax should also allow people to register to vote based on filing as well.

CA still has me on their voter roles. Despite moving, surrendering my CADL, getting a TXDL, they still send a ballot. I guess time will fix that since that ballot is never cast. So I guess I would like to see some sort of clearing house between the states so when you cross states, they remove you from old state when you get added to new state.

I do understand it's hard for certain folks to get registered. Homeless, Natives on reservations where addresses aren't set. But for the vast majority of citizens it's really easy to register and vote. I'm not a fan of redesigning an entire system that mostly works to get edge cases.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 08:54 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no objection to ridiculous ideas.
Ridiculous ideas by their very name are deserving of RIDICULE. But who wants to be rude? The only other alternative is know who it is and ignore the absurdity.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 08:56 AM   #141
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I'm for this as long as IDs are mandatory as well
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Old 2nd February 2019, 09:01 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Again? How many times does this have to be refuted.

All you have to do is get your name crossed off the list at the polling booth.

Voting is not compulsory.

Attendance (on election day) is not compulsory if you send in a postal vote, or complete a pre-poll vote at a pre-polling station.
That works for me too. The goal in my mind is to

1. increase participation
2. end voter suppression.

The point is even by just signing your name or sending in the postal vote you are participating in the Democratic process.

As opposed to here in the US where Republican operatives purge minorities from voting rolls and limit the participation of the underclass.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 09:04 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I'm for this as long as IDs are mandatory as well
I'm not for mandatory IDs until it can be shown that voter fraud is really a problem. There is no evidence, none that it is.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 09:14 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I think the first amendment argument is stronger than the 4th. The 4th only comes into play if who voted becomes public information. The general public has no right, for example, to know if I filed a tax return.

I've got no problem with things like Motor Voter, so long as they do it better than we do it here in Texas. When I moved here from CA, my request was never processed. Had to fill out the form and mail it in. States with income tax should also allow people to register to vote based on filing as well.

CA still has me on their voter roles. Despite moving, surrendering my CADL, getting a TXDL, they still send a ballot. I guess time will fix that since that ballot is never cast. So I guess I would like to see some sort of clearing house between the states so when you cross states, they remove you from old state when you get added to new state.

I do understand it's hard for certain folks to get registered. Homeless, Natives on reservations where addresses aren't set. But for the vast majority of citizens it's really easy to register and vote. I'm not a fan of redesigning an entire system that mostly works to get edge cases.
There are a hell of a LOT more so called edge cases than you realize. And the system particularly when it is run by the GOP can make it quite difficult for many to procure ID and vote. And so what, you're still registered in CA. You aren't traveling from Texas to California to vote are you? If someone shows up at their polling place, they should be allowed to vote PERIOD.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 10:39 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
From here:

Arguments used in favour of compulsory voting

Voting is a civic duty comparable to other duties citizens perform e.g. taxation, compulsory education, jury duty
The problem I have with this line of thinking is that those "duties" don't really work without compulsion. Take away the mandate and the functions of government all but fall apart if you can't get a jury, or taxes to pay for stuff. There are real long term negatives to not educating the populous. But voting? The government will chug along with or without your vote, just fine.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:00 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There are a hell of a LOT more so called edge case than you realize. And the system particularly when it is run by the GOP can make it quite difficult for many to pricure ID and vote. And so what, you're still registered in CA. You aren't traveling from Texas to California to vote are you? If someone shows up at their polling place, they should be allowed to vote PERIOD.
I don't need to travel to vote in CA. It's done by mail.

I would also argue that it's really not that hard to get a picture ID, and if you can't get one of those, you have greater problems than voting. That the laws around getting the ID are the problem and not the voting laws.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:07 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I don't need to travel to vote in CA. It's done by mail.

I would also argue that it's really not that hard to get a picture ID, and if you can't get one of those, you have greater problems than voting. That the laws around getting the ID are the problem and not the voting laws.
You don't know what you're talking about. And yes, you do have bigger problems than voting. I volunteer to help the homeless. Just imagine you're living on the streets. And you don't have any ID. How do you think you get ID? How hard do you think it is?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 12:23 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I don't need to travel to vote in CA. It's done by mail.

I would also argue that it's really not that hard to get a picture ID, and if you can't get one of those, you have greater problems than voting. That the laws around getting the ID are the problem and not the voting laws.
One problem is that many laws are written to require a "current" photo ID. So your expired driver's license or passport isn't sufficient ID to vote, even though it's the only ID you need to renew your license or passport. You might have some kind of welfare card, but it doesn't have your picture. If you need to get a new ID, you typically will have to provide a birth certificate, a Social Security card, and proof of residence. And somebody who is homeless doesn't have a mailing address, he very likely doesn't travel with important documents, and he's not very good at dealing with authorities. But he still has a legal right to vote.

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Old 2nd February 2019, 12:35 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I would also argue that it's really not that hard to get a picture ID, and if you can't get one of those, you have greater problems than voting. That the laws around getting the ID are the problem and not the voting laws.
My experience indicates otherwise. It took nearly six months for me to get a valid ID. I had moved -- temporarily -- from my house (due to a remodel) and had my mail sent to a forwarding address. It took a half-dozen trips to more than one post office to attempt to start to fix the situation (and two trips to the DMV). The DMV refused to send the license to the forwarded address for fear of identity theft. The post office refused to recognize the old address because they're idiots. The issue was not resolved until I went online, but even now the address on the ID does not match my actual residence.

I used to be quite fond of the post office. The dreadful experience not only made more inclined to consider privatization, but introducing the physical buildings to gasoline and matches. I can't imagine how a broke person on the edge of society (and constantly moving) will handle such things.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:20 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you even read what I write? I discussed one possible purpose and one possible proposal discussed here as an example of how to consider them. I was not trying to say something about any one proposal and I certainly wasn't advocating for what I think the purpose of voting is.
Too late to walk away from actually taking a position now, as your posts are preserved in this thread: you think voting is a means unto itself, and neither the use of a Wookie Defence or additional obscuring blather has rescinded that position.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:28 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
The problem I have with this line of thinking is that those "duties" don't really work without compulsion. Take away the mandate and the functions of government all but fall apart if you can't get a jury, or taxes to pay for stuff. There are real long term negatives to not educating the populous. But voting? The government will chug along with or without your vote, just fine.
I don't see the compulsion as a problem. If one wishes to participate in a society that vests certain rights and accompanying responsibilities upon an individual, then there must be consequences for breaching rights and failing in responsibilities. The responsibilities part is, however, persistently overlooked in amongst all the breast-beating over "my rights". Rights do not exist in a vacuum.

I agree with the second half of your observation - the machinery of government is robust enough to continue to function with or without elected members poking their fingers into the gears. but those same elected members are the ones appointed for setting the direction and ensuring the machinery moves in that direction. Otherwise, we have something other than a democracy.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 03:25 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no objection to ridiculous ideas.
"That is why you fail."

-Yoda, probably
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Old 2nd February 2019, 03:30 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post

1. increase participation
Die in a fire.


Quote:
2. end voter suppression.


Very yes.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 04:03 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Too late to walk away from actually taking a position now, as your posts are preserved in this thread: you think voting is a means unto itself, and neither the use of a Wookie Defence or additional obscuring blather has rescinded that position.
I didn't attempt to rescind a position. My post about how a proposal should be analyzed through the position was about argument, not about my position.

ETA: I don't even know if the position and proposal I used for demonstration are a combination someone here advocates for. It was just an example.

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Old 2nd February 2019, 04:21 PM   #155
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This

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This goes back to what I asked earlier. What is the objective of having voting? Only then can we assess if it works. It depends a lot of voting is an ends or a means. I see it as an ends to itself.
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Therefore the purpose of voting is not realised if there is not mandatory voting. There is, however, no uncertainty of purpose, so the proposition that it's a means unto itself is not supported by the evidence.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you even read what I write? I discussed one possible purpose and one possible proposal discussed here as an example of how to consider them. I was not trying to say something about any one proposal and I certainly wasn't advocating for what I think the purpose of voting is.
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Too late to walk away from actually taking a position now, as your posts are preserved in this thread: you think voting is a means unto itself, and neither the use of a Wookie Defence or additional obscuring blather has rescinded that position.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't attempt to rescind a position. My post about how a proposal should be analyzed through the position was about argument, not about my position.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 04:34 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
This
You literally omitted two posts in our conversation where you ask for an explanation and I then explain how a policy is assessed through the objective.

Fix it.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 09:44 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I'm for this as long as IDs are mandatory as well
Here, all registered voters (i.e. everyone over 18 who is eligible to vote) are sent a voter pack including a list of the local polling places, some basic information on how to vote, and a brief information pack on the candidates. Also included is a voting card with your details on it that you can hand in at the polling place and they can locate you in the register quickly.

Why not do something similar?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 10:13 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. I am all for any measure to make voting easier.
2. I also think it will make, at best, a negligible difference in our voting numbers.
I'm not for any measure. I'm for a good one though.

We don't need a new federal holiday. It's bad enough federal employees all got a paid day off on our dime after Bush died so they could "mourn". That was bullspit. I think state workers got it too.

My off the cuff plan:

Move Presidents Day to November and call it voting day.

Make that on a Friday (or Monday maybe) and have the polls open all weekend as well.

Problems?

I'd say just do the weekend and forget the holiday, but a lot of people work weekends. We can do both. Or maybe just Friday and Saturday if it's too expensive.

Someone has probably suggested this here but I skipped ahead.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 10:25 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"That is why you fail."

-Yoda, probably
I think it was "That is why fail you do." Or maybe it was "Fail do that's you why"

Oh the topic was mandatory voting. Okay, well my ex-wife said it's mandatory in Brazil where she's from, and if she didn't go home and vote she'd lose her driver's license. Doesn't seem like a good way to handle it.

By the way she came here legally on work visas before I met her, took medical tests, did everything right, and is now a citizen, and a very productive one. That is an immigrant.

I don't agree with mandatory anything from my government. I'm probably forgetting something important but in general - hell no.

2016 was a perfect reason why people should not be forced to vote. I guess you could write in Mickey Mouse - or would they allow that anymore? Ya no thanks. People are so stupid I wonder sometimes if there should be an intelligence quiz to vote. Or maybe a civics test. LOL.

I almost didn't vote myself, but then I realized it didn't matter who I voted for because I live in Cali.

Just say no to mandatory voting
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Old 3rd February 2019, 12:05 AM   #160
Aridas
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Here, all registered voters (i.e. everyone over 18 who is eligible to vote) are sent a voter pack including a list of the local polling places, some basic information on how to vote, and a brief information pack on the candidates. Also included is a voting card with your details on it that you can hand in at the polling place and they can locate you in the register quickly.

Why not do something similar?
This is probably the thing that I wish that we got here the most. Finding any information on most of the people on the ballot tends to be annoyingly difficult. It's actually a sad thing when I end up having to rely on, for example, BBC or Guardian reporting, rather than finding much easily accessible information from more... American sources.
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