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Old 3rd February 2019, 01:06 AM   #161
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I think it was "That is why fail you do." Or maybe it was "Fail do that's you why"

Oh the topic was mandatory voting. Okay, well my ex-wife said it's mandatory in Brazil where she's from, and if she didn't go home and vote she'd lose her driver's license. Doesn't seem like a good way to handle it.

By the way she came here legally on work visas before I met her, took medical tests, did everything right, and is now a citizen, and a very productive one. That is an immigrant.

I don't agree with mandatory anything from my government. I'm probably forgetting something important but in general - hell no.

2016 was a perfect reason why people should not be forced to vote. I guess you could write in Mickey Mouse - or would they allow that anymore? Ya no thanks. People are so stupid I wonder sometimes if there should be an intelligence quiz to vote. Or maybe a civics test. LOL.

I almost didn't vote myself, but then I realized it didn't matter who I voted for because I live in Cali.

Just say no to mandatory voting
Do you pay your taxes?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 07:54 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I think it was "That is why fail you do." Or maybe it was "Fail do that's you why"

Oh the topic was mandatory voting. Okay, well my ex-wife said it's mandatory in Brazil where she's from, and if she didn't go home and vote she'd lose her driver's license. Doesn't seem like a good way to handle it.

By the way she came here legally on work visas before I met her, took medical tests, did everything right, and is now a citizen, and a very productive one. That is an immigrant.

I don't agree with mandatory anything from my government. I'm probably forgetting something important but in general - hell no.

2016 was a perfect reason why people should not be forced to vote. I guess you could write in Mickey Mouse - or would they allow that anymore? Ya no thanks. People are so stupid I wonder sometimes if there should be an intelligence quiz to vote. Or maybe a civics test. LOL.

I almost didn't vote myself, but then I realized it didn't matter who I voted for because I live in Cali.

Just say no to mandatory voting
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Do you pay your taxes?
I ABSOLUTELY love mgidm86's response. As if he has no responsibility to society at all.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 07:57 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I also was purged from my precinct's voter roll once and told I couldn't vote because I wasn't registered.
Sounds like voting isn't a right.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 08:43 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You don't know what you're talking about. And yes, you do have bigger problems than voting. I volunteer to help the homeless. Just imagine you're living on the streets. And you don't have any ID. How do you think you get ID? How hard do you think it is?
With the advent of Real ID, it's borderline impossible. I had to help my nephew get a TXID card, he doesn't drive (kids today). He lacked all sorts of documents one would need to establish residency. No car auto insurance, no car, no lease agreement, no bills. So, yeah, I do know a bit about the circumstances, but thanks for the assumption. Just because you put yourself into a circumstance where you see it everywhere does not mean it is actually everywhere.

Ironically, I had to vouch for him. So I had to prove my residency. The one document they would not accept, my TXDL. I thought it was odd that the document I got for essentially proving my residency was invalid for proving my residency.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 08:54 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
I don't see the compulsion as a problem. If one wishes to participate in a society that vests certain rights and accompanying responsibilities upon an individual, then there must be consequences for breaching rights and failing in responsibilities. The responsibilities part is, however, persistently overlooked in amongst all the breast-beating over "my rights". Rights do not exist in a vacuum.
I almost always see compulsion, without a demonstrable public good, as a problem. Taxes pay for common goods that wouldn't likely get built any other way. I don't see that common good with a forced vote. Any compulsion is an encroachment on freedom.

So what penalties are you willing to impose for someone not sharing your political thoughts? Fines? Jail?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 09:12 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
With the advent of Real ID, it's borderline impossible. I had to help my nephew get a TXID card, he doesn't drive (kids today). He lacked all sorts of documents one would need to establish residency. No car auto insurance, no car, no lease agreement, no bills. So, yeah, I do know a bit about the circumstances, but thanks for the assumption. Just because you put yourself into a circumstance where you see it everywhere does not mean it is actually everywhere.

Ironically, I had to vouch for him. So I had to prove my residency. The one document they would not accept, my TXDL. I thought it was odd that the document I got for essentially proving my residency was invalid for proving my residency.
But that IS the point. It IS EVERYWHERE. The homeless are ALL around you. They are ignored by everyone. You just have to open your eyes. And society is making it harder and harder on them. You can't get ID WITHOUT ID and the homeless are usually without family to help. And without the ability to vote, who is representing them?

How do we give a voice to the voiceless?

Or do we continue to ignore them?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:35 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I almost always see compulsion, without a demonstrable public good, as a problem. Taxes pay for common goods that wouldn't likely get built any other way. I don't see that common good with a forced vote. Any compulsion is an encroachment on freedom.

So what penalties are you willing to impose for someone not sharing your political thoughts? Fines? Jail?
"...without a demonstrable public good..."

Do you see no good in voting? Even if we restrict the case to mandatory voting has been shown to achieve good - this is not a hypothetical situation.

As mentioned earlier, the coercion or compulsion is very light, with the society accepting it.

Note also, as previously mentioned, the government places makes it very easy to vote in those societies that do have mandatory voting and electoral boundaries are not determined by the parties competing.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:50 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But that IS the point. It IS EVERYWHERE. The homeless are ALL around you. They are ignored by everyone. You just have to open your eyes. And society is making it harder and harder on them. You can't get ID WITHOUT ID and the homeless are usually without family to help. And without the ability to vote, who is representing them?

How do we give a voice to the voiceless?

Or do we continue to ignore them?
They still are edge cases, when it comes to voting. They aren't everywhere in numbers. When you look at the bigger picture, you are talking less than a percent of the population in the US. It is an issue of perspective.

Do we change the rules for 99.8% of the population to satisfy the needs of that 0.2%, or do we address the underlying problems that has caused them to slip through the cracks?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:55 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
"...without a demonstrable public good..."

Do you see no good in voting? Even if we restrict the case to mandatory voting has been shown to achieve good - this is not a hypothetical situation.-
Straw man. I don't see the need to coerce people to take an action without that public good. Does forcing people to vote make society better? I don't see it. Nor has anyone advanced a reason for forcing everyone by law to vote.

Quote:
As mentioned earlier, the coercion or compulsion is very light, with the society accepting it.
Why should any coercion or compulsion be used at all?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 12:05 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Straw man. I don't see the need to coerce people to take an action without that public good. Does forcing people to vote make society better? I don't see it. Nor has anyone advanced a reason for forcing everyone by law to vote.



Why should any coercion or compulsion be used at all?
I think you may not have understood my post. I pointed out that a public good was already being achieved in the real world.

Arguing against the concept in the context of doing it in the USA is another thing altogether and I agree that it’s unlikely to work there. The electoral system has too many other broken parts for any one correction to bring it back from being a failed democracy
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Old 3rd February 2019, 12:05 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
They still are edge cases, when it comes to voting. They aren't everywhere in numbers. When you look at the bigger picture, you are talking less than a percent of the population in the US. It is an issue of perspective.

Do we change the rules for 99.8% of the population to satisfy the needs of that 0.2%, or do we address the underlying problems that has caused them to slip through the cracks?
I got news for you. Their population is far greater than that. And YES, we DEFINITELY address BOTH. The wrong approach is to treat those that have slipped through the cracks as expendable. We find ways to help them and include them and make them participating members of society.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 12:33 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I almost always see compulsion, without a demonstrable public good, as a problem. Taxes pay for common goods that wouldn't likely get built any other way. I don't see that common good with a forced vote. Any compulsion is an encroachment on freedom.

So what penalties are you willing to impose for someone not sharing your political thoughts? Fines? Jail?
The public good is that sections of the population are under-represented when it comes to voting. More than anything else, voting is a habit, and wealthier, more educated people are socialized into it.

More specifically, at least in the present day United States, it takes the form of intergenerational tyranny, where elders are spending money and cutting taxes on high incomes. This drives up debt. Tax cuts without spending spending cuts are a tax increase on future generations.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 03:34 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I almost always see compulsion, without a demonstrable public good, as a problem. Taxes pay for common goods that wouldn't likely get built any other way. I don't see that common good with a forced vote. Any compulsion is an encroachment on freedom.

So what penalties are you willing to impose for someone not sharing your political thoughts? Fines? Jail?
I'm not sure you have understood how mandatory voting actually works. So I'll repeat, using Australia as the example: Since we are already registered to vote, we are obliged to cast a ballot. That may be pre-poll, postal, or in person at a polling station. We get our names ticked off the roll of voters as having attended, are given our ballot paper(s), and that's it. Our obligation of mandatory voting is now over.

Should we decide we are serious about this election and fill in the papers correctly and drop them in the ballot box then we have cast a ballot. Should we simply number them top-to-bottom without thought then we have cast a ballot...a donkey vote. Should we decide to leave them blank or write stuff or draw rude pictures on them and drop them in the box then we have cast a ballot...a spoiled and silly ballot. In all these cases, since it is a secret ballot, nobody will know who wrote what (unless we are stupid enough to write our name on it). Should we even decide to hand the papers back because we don't want to vote then we have not cast a ballot (it is illegal to remove ballot papers from a polling station so we can't trash or burn ballot papers). But we have still legally fulfilled our obligation of "mandatory voting" so there is no punishment involved.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 03:39 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
They still are edge cases, when it comes to voting. They aren't everywhere in numbers. When you look at the bigger picture, you are talking less than a percent of the population in the US. It is an issue of perspective.

Do we change the rules for 99.8% of the population to satisfy the needs of that 0.2%, or do we address the underlying problems that has caused them to slip through the cracks?
Do you mean the 35-40% of eligible citizens who do not, are prevented from, or simply could not be arsed voting? That 0.02%?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 06:17 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Why should any coercion or compulsion be used at all?
Because voter suppression is no longer a thing.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:18 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I'm not sure you have understood how mandatory voting actually works. ....
I understand that ~10% of Australians fail to register (despite it being compulsory). In 2010 92% of those registered, voted (~8% scofflaws) but 6% gave blank ballots (an unknown number of donkey votes). Agreed 70-80% votes is a high number,but at what cost? How many non-voters are actually fined?
--

I read that Belgium has a rather clever solution - the penalty for repeated failure to vote is disenfranchisement !

===

In the bigger picture, democracy is a truly horrible way to create any coherent process or plan. Imagining the outcomes would improve by including people who prefer not to get involved seems foolish. Yes, we should make it far more convenient for ppl to get ID, register and to vote, but obligating people who are unmotivated seems counterproductive.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:29 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by stevea View Post
I understand that ~10% of Australians fail to register (despite it being compulsory). In 2010 92% of those registered, voted (~8% scofflaws) but 6% gave blank ballots (an unknown number of donkey votes). Agreed 70-80% votes is a high number,but at what cost? How many non-voters are actually fined?
I understand the philosophical objections to compulsory voting but in practice, there is no real downside to compulsory voting in Australia.

The public at large accept that voting is a duty and apart from the odd whinge, there is no real movement to end compulsory voting. It means that candidates can spend more money on "vote for me" campaigns and less on "go to the polls" campaigns. It also makes voter disenfranchisement more difficult.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:32 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by stevea View Post
I understand that ~10% of Australians fail to register (despite it being compulsory). In 2010 92% of those registered, voted (~8% scofflaws) but 6% gave blank ballots (an unknown number of donkey votes). Agreed 70-80% votes is a high number,but at what cost? How many non-voters are actually fined?
--

I read that Belgium has a rather clever solution - the penalty for repeated failure to vote is disenfranchisement !

===

In the bigger picture, democracy is a truly horrible way to create any coherent process or plan. Imagining the outcomes would improve by including people who prefer not to get involved seems foolish. Yes, we should make it far more convenient for ppl to get ID, register and to vote, but obligating people who are unmotivated seems counterproductive.
A couple of observations:

1. voting establishes neither a plan nor a process.

2. Lack of motivation is not the same thing as having no preference.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:06 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Do we change the rules for 99.8% of the population to satisfy the needs of that 0.2%, or do we address the underlying problems that has caused them to slip through the cracks?
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Do you mean the 35-40% of eligible citizens who do not, are prevented from, or simply could not be arsed voting? That 0.02%?
No, he means the 0.001% of voter fraud. After all, that tiny minority is the reason they want to change things to require voter ID laws.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:16 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
[...] Should we even decide to hand the papers back because we don't want to vote then we have not cast a ballot (it is illegal to remove ballot papers from a polling station so we can't trash or burn ballot papers). But we have still legally fulfilled our obligation of "mandatory voting" so there is no punishment involved.
Except for the punishment of having to pay the opportunity cost of all the other things you could have done with the time and effort you spent going to the polling place.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:21 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Except for the punishment of having to pay the opportunity cost of all the other things you could have done with the time and effort you spent going to the polling place.
I'm never getting those 8 minutes back!
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:30 AM   #182
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And this is where even the most strawmanned version of Libertarianism, which for the record I'm usually onboard with way, way past the point most other people jump ship, losses me, when it stops being about anything meaningful or practical and just turns into a Bobbed, reflexive, ideologically pure "You can't tell me what to do"-ism.

I'm deeply, deeply into the "Freedom is the default" side of the scale on most everything but I can't see the percentage in letting it turn into a "I'm gonna poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick despite agreeing that it's a stupid thing to do solely to show up the people who say 'Poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick is a stupid thing to do' as if they have the right to tell me how to live my life..."
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:44 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And this is where even the most strawmanned version of Libertarianism, which for the record I'm usually onboard with way, way past the point most other people jump ship, losses me, when it stops being about anything meaningful or practical and just turns into a Bobbed, reflexive, ideologically pure "You can't tell me what to do"-ism.

I'm deeply, deeply into the "Freedom is the default" side of the scale on most everything but I can't see the percentage in letting it turn into a "I'm gonna poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick despite agreeing that it's a stupid thing to do solely to show up the people who say 'Poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick is a stupid thing to do' as if they have the right to tell me how to live my life..."
You've lost me here.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:52 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You've lost me here.
Basically a couple of people seem to be arguing that Mandatory Voting is bad not because they can point to any functional way it makes anything worse but just on the fact that they don't like the government telling them what to do.

Which... I get to some degree. I mean like I just said in another thread political and legal precedents are the one place where "The slippery slope" fallacy isn't a thing because when the government or the law gets the power to do something; to make us do something or stop us from doing something, you can be assured they will try to apply this power in other ways so I get in one perspective the inherent risk is letting the government set the precedence that they can order the populace to "be involved" in a political process. The government gives us the right to protest; both the government telling us we aren't allowed to protest or telling us we have to protest (even if they don't tell us what we have to protest) would feel... off to a lot of us.

But just given the things that we can all (mostly) agree the government oversteps on and that really there's not much in the way of any real argument how more people voting is going to make anything worse I don't see this being where to focus our "Scale back the government" push. And even within a ideologically pure libertarian mindset a populace would still have some responsibilities to their government.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:54 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm never getting those 8 minutes back!
Very true. Time is one commodity that is not renewable or replaceable.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:57 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Very true. Time is one commodity that is not renewable or replaceable.
You need to adjust your sarcasm detector.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:46 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Basically a couple of people seem to be arguing that Mandatory Voting is bad not because they can point to any functional way it makes anything worse but just on the fact that they don't like the government telling them what to do.
It's a question of where to place the burden of proof. For me, the axiom is that my rights shall not be infringed without good reason. This axiom puts the burden of proof on the state to justify making something mandatory. I'm under no obligation to justify not making it mandatory. That's all.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:47 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You need to adjust your sarcasm detector.
I keep thinking you're trying to make a case for something.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:50 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I keep thinking you're trying to make a case for something.
I am: voting is easy and quick, so it's no cost to me at all.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:54 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a question of where to place the burden of proof. For me, the axiom is that my rights shall not be infringed without good reason.
Here's a good reason: In a democracy, the demos should bear the burden and responsibility of that democracy.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:09 AM   #191
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I agree that the "Burden of Proof" (in this as in most all things) lies with the people who want to restrict freedom.

I just think "Be involved in the system" is enough to meet the standard of "proof" (as it was, being used in this context) for involvement.

There's no percentage in not being interested in a system that will still has an interest in you. Letting a libertarian mindset prevent you from being involved in the system just gives more power to those that don't.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:24 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I am: voting is easy and quick, so it's no cost to me at all.
I think this is a question that each individual citizen should be free to judge for themselves, according to their own needs and wants.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Here's a good reason: In a democracy, the demos should bear the burden and responsibility of that democracy.
Maybe, but "mandatory voting" doesn't seem to follow directly from that. What's your argument for connecting the two?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's no percentage in not being interested in a system that will still has an interest in you. Letting a libertarian mindset prevent you from being involved in the system just gives more power to those that don't.
I think this is a question that each individual should be free to decide for themselves.

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Old 4th February 2019, 10:29 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think this is a question that each individual citizen should be free to judge for themselves, according to their own needs and wants.
Yes, so?

Quote:
Maybe, but "mandatory voting" doesn't seem to follow directly from that. What's your argument for connecting the two?
I think it does follow; like mandatory seatbelts. The society you belong to has decided that your civic duty trumps your freedom of choice in this instance because if you're going to have power be in the hands of the very people their elected officials will make decisions for, those people should be required to participate to ensure representation and accountability.

Not saying I buy the argument, just that it sounds reasonable to me.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:53 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, so?
So making it mandatory contradicts that principle.

Quote:
I think it does follow; like mandatory seatbelts. The society you belong to has decided that your civic duty trumps your freedom of choice in this instance because if you're going to have power be in the hands of the very people their elected officials will make decisions for, those people should be required to participate to ensure representation and accountability.

Not saying I buy the argument, just that it sounds reasonable to me.
I'm not really seeing much of an argument to buy into. Just some reasonable-sounding handwaving.

What's unreasonable about, say, giving everyone the opportunity to vote, letting them choose for themselves whether to vote, and then going on to represent everyone who had the opportunity and made the choice?
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:59 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's unreasonable about, say, giving everyone the opportunity to vote, letting them choose for themselves whether to vote, and then going on to represent everyone who had the opportunity and made the choice?
Because that leads to the system we have now, making voting just hard enough that the the most extreme of the tribes even bother with it and the 40-60% who don't whine about how "it doesn't make a different" and "the systems all rigged anyway" and everyone in power having zero reason to change it since an endless dance of fighting over the margins is exactly what they want.

Again as a purely Poly-sci thought experiment with a bunch of purely spherical voters over a political plane of uniform gravity in a social friction-less vacuum, I'm with you. But in the real world pure ideology can't tip my scales.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:53 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So making it mandatory contradicts that principle.
I don't think people having the right to their opinion contradicts mandatory actions.

Quote:
I'm not really seeing much of an argument to buy into. Just some reasonable-sounding handwaving.
That's your opinion. You could at least acknowledge that it has merit despite you disagreeing with it.

Quote:
What's unreasonable about, say, giving everyone the opportunity to vote, letting them choose for themselves whether to vote, and then going on to represent everyone who had the opportunity and made the choice?
Who said it's unreasonable? Just because one solution sounds reasonable doesn't magically nullify all the other ones.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:54 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Terrible idea.
A.I think if an individual does not want to vote, that is his right.
B. It really a good idea to force people who don't care about politics, and are totally ignorant about the issues vote?
I agree. You can make it mandatory to show up at the polling place, or to return a mail in ballot, with a fine for failing to do so, but as long as you have a secret ballot, you can't prevent people from returning a blank ballot, or marking their ballot randomly. I really don't see how mandatory voting makes any difference at all.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:05 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't think people having the right to their opinion contradicts mandatory actions.
I'm talking about the right to act according to your opinions.

Quote:
That's your opinion. You could at least acknowledge that it has merit despite you disagreeing with it.
It's not clear to me that it does have merit.

Quote:
Who said it's unreasonable? Just because one solution sounds reasonable doesn't magically nullify all the other ones.
It seems like you're not actually making a case for anything. You've barely gotten as far as acknowledging some trivial truths (rights have limits) and some different alternatives.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:06 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I used to be on the "let's all vote by mail" camp, but after all this NC absentee ballot shenanigans (where a GOP operative was illegally collecting ballots and changing/destroying them), I think I do prefer in person voting. There's much less chance of someone secretly intercepting or otherwise spoiling a ballot when in person. There's really no way to guarantee that a mail ballot is also a secret ballot (say, an abusive spouse checking to make sure the battered spouse votes the "right" way). When you vote in person, secrecy is easy to accomplish.

I also think voting holiday won't help much, except for government workers. Holidays in the US have a way of rapidly becoming big retail events. Making it a holiday would probably actually make it harder for many workers to make it, as demand would be high to man a cash register during the big "election day sale". People that can't be bothered to engage in democracy have no problem lining up on the sidewalk at 3am for a discount TV.

Early voting is the best option IMO. Assuming the polls are open into the evenings and weekends for a couple weeks and polling locations are numerous and convenient, nearly everyone will be able to cast a ballot quickly and conveniently. I voted early this time and had no wait. It's great.
I have no problem with mail in voting. OTOH, there is no real reason that voting has to be limited to one day. Why not have an election week, and people can vote on whatever day they are off work?
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:08 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm talking about the right to act according to your opinions.
Ok but that's not what you had posted, then.

Quote:
It's not clear to me that it does have merit.
Well, presumably because you disagree with it.

Quote:
It seems like you're not actually making a case for anything.
Except for the reason I gave that you disagree with. Disagreeing with something doesn't mean the person who made the point magically didn't actually make it.
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