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Old 4th February 2019, 05:19 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thanks for the advice. I still think that it should be advice, and not government coercion.
That's a fair position. I honestly don't know where I stand on the issue. I see arguments on both side.
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Old 4th February 2019, 05:20 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Libertarians would generally favor levels of compensation until there are enough volunteers.
Compensation from whom? The government? How? Government doesn't have money, since taxation is theft.
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Old 4th February 2019, 05:26 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Compensation from whom? The government? How? Government doesn't have money, since taxation is theft.
Compensation from people who want the thing to happen, and have the resources to make it happen.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:09 PM   #244
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1. Citizenship Duties
For:
Voting is a necessary part of the duties of citizenship, just like jury duty or paying taxes.
Against:
Citizens have the right to choose whether they want to vote. Compulsion is part of a slippery slope to totalitarianism.

2. Legitimate representation
For:
Compulsory registration and voting increase the legitimacy of elected representatives. Candidates winning seats in parliament really do win a majority of the people’s votes. In countries like the United States, where the turnout can be low, candidates can win with much less than a majority of the eligible vote.
Against:
Compulsory registration and voting reduce the legitimacy of elected representatives. Majorities in Australian elections include the votes of many uninterested and ill-informed people who vote just because they have to.

3. Political education
For:
Compulsory voting increases the political education of the people. They will tend to pay more attention to politics if they know they have to vote.
Against:
Australians seem to be no more politically educated (and are perhaps less so) than citizens of comparable countries (for example, New Zealand, the United States, and the United Kingdom) that use voluntary voting.

4. Choice
For:
Compulsory voting does not force a choice. People can always lodge a blank or spoiled ballot paper.
Against:
Compulsory voting forces people to vote for someone even if they do not like any of the candidates on offer. (no, you can spoil your vote)

5. Bias
For
Compulsory voting means that candidates have to address the needs of all the voters. If voting were voluntary, the experience of countries like the United States is that poorer and less educated people would tend not to vote. This would skew the political system (further) toward the well off and well educated.

Against:
Voluntary voting does not necessarily produce bias to the wealthy or well educated. In the United States, candidates like Jesse Jackson have shown that the poor and relatively uneducated can be mobilised in large numbers behind candidates who support their concerns.

6. Responsiveness
For:
Compulsory voting keeps the Australian political system responsive to the people. New parties and candidates (like Katter’s Australian Party) who lack wealthy backing can contest elections without spending large sums of money just to get the voters to polling booths.

Against:
Compulsory voting has made the Australian political system unresponsive. If voting were made voluntary, it would shake up the political system. Parties and candidates would have to do more to convince people of the merits of their policies in order to get voters to the polls.

https://legalanswers.sl.nsw.gov.au/h...ng-and-against
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:12 PM   #245
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Also from Australia this:

Under what democratic conditions does the ‘vertical accountability’​ mechanism of voting maximise rights protection? Using an empirically informed political theory approach I argue that the Australian case demonstrates that it does so where compulsory voting laws are in place and are appropriately administered. It achieves this in often unappreciated and undetected ways. I begin by showing how compulsory voting uniquely ensures that the right to vote is transformed from a merely formal to an instantiated, material right; from a right that exists on paper to one that is not only exercisable but also exercised. It does this in a number of ways. First, compulsory voting, as it is practised in Australia, promotes the right to vote itself simply by removing most of the ergonomic, practical and even psychological costs of voting that often deter voters in voluntary regimes. Second, governments elected in compulsory voting elections are more responsive to the needs of all citizens, rather than just the (privileged) subset of citizens that vote in voluntary elections. In turn, this means they are better able (and willing) to protect such rights as the right to equality before the law and the right to be free from discrimination. In promoting these negative rights, compulsory voting also serves a number of positive welfare rights.​

Lisa Hill is Professor of Politics, University of Adelaide. Her interests are in political theory, history of political thought and issues in electoral law and behaviour.

I myself am undecided, but wasn't surprised to find there was some well thoughtout philosophy behind compulsory voting. Or at least the aim is to improve peoples rights, not diminish them.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:17 PM   #246
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"We had to take away your rights to preserve your rights."

- Australia, probably
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:33 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Threatening eligible voters with jail time if they don't vote doesn't actually have anything to do with the question of how you determine eligible voters in the first place. Native Americans who couldn't show a street address still wouldn't be able to vote. On the other hand, the government wouldn't be able to prove they were in violation of mandatory voting.
The appropriate body - state or county government - would be enjoined to enable universal suffrage and face penalties for enacting ordinances or statutes that make it impossible for citizens to do their civic duty. The Justice Department and the Supreme Court would certify that states or other political subdivisions have made reasonable provisions to ensure that citizens face no undue obstacles to exercising their franchise.

You know, like a voting rights act, with federal oversight.

It may not float your boat, but it does seem to me like a reasonable solution. Also I supposed we'd have to mandate some standard acceptable form of identification. Which means a tamper-resistant national identity card. Which, really, is probably a perfectly reasonable requirement if we want to get a handle on who is in the country legally and entitled to vote, work, get benefits, etc. It would address one piece of the illegal immigration problem as well.

OK, so, current environment, no, the powers that be really don't want that. Probably Democrats too. But it doesn't seem like radical Big Brother overreach to me. If we're going to ask people for their papers, then there should be a standard acceptable proof of legal residency and/or citizenship. Not two utility bills and your CCW permit.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:37 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The appropriate body - state or county government - would be enjoined to enable universal suffrage
They're already so enjoined.

You sure have a lot to say, for someone who apparently hasn't yet stopped to think about it.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:46 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"We had to take away your rights to preserve your rights."

- Australia, probably
Tell me which "right" we have given up.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:48 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"We had to take away your rights to preserve your rights."

- Australia, probably
Last time I looked, we weren't running around de-registering voters en mass. Now *that* would fit in with the quote...
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:49 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"We had to take away your rights to preserve your rights."

- Australia, probably
Sounds like you're simply not open to other opinions.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:50 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Also I supposed we'd have to mandate some standard acceptable form of identification. Which means a tamper-resistant national identity card. Which, really, is probably a perfectly reasonable requirement if we want to get a handle on who is in the country legally and entitled to vote, work, get benefits, etc. It would address one piece of the illegal immigration problem as well.

OK, so, current environment, no, the powers that be really don't want that. Probably Democrats too. But it doesn't seem like radical Big Brother overreach to me. If we're going to ask people for their papers, then there should be a standard acceptable proof of legal residency and/or citizenship. Not two utility bills and your CCW permit.

We turn up at the Polling Booth, give a name and address and get a Ballot Paper to fill in. If your name and address are on the electoral roll, that's it. No identification more than that required. Yet we change Governments all the time and vote Members in and out regularly and there has never been any serious suggestions by anybody of widespread voter fraud or manipulation of the vote.



It aint broke so we don't fix it.


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Old 4th February 2019, 06:51 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Tell me which "right" we have given up.
The right to vote, obviously.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:52 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Last time I looked, we weren't running around de-registering voters en mass. Now *that* would fit in with the quote...
So would a lot of other things. And some of them do.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:53 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sounds like you're simply not open to other opinions.
I'm holding out for actual arguments. Maybe when you figure out where you stand, you can bring one.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:54 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
If your name and address are on the electoral roll, that's it.
If.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:56 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
6. Responsiveness
For:
Compulsory voting keeps the Australian political system responsive to the people. New parties and candidates (like Katter’s Australian Party) who lack wealthy backing can contest elections without spending large sums of money just to get the voters to polling booths.

Against:
Compulsory voting has made the Australian political system unresponsive. If voting were made voluntary, it would shake up the political system. Parties and candidates would have to do more to convince people of the merits of their policies in order to get voters to the polls.

https://legalanswers.sl.nsw.gov.au/h...ng-and-against
Thanks for posting that.

Re the last point highlighted, that would in fact not happen. We are just too damned cynical for too many of us to be sucked in by huckster-style campaigning. By way of example, witness the current TV-based joke that is Clive Palmer. Gawd almighty, what an UTTER PRAT!!
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Old 4th February 2019, 07:12 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If.

Thank you for your carefully considered response to what I had to say. I can see you are interested in the topic and give thoughtful and intelligent replies to all the points that I made and not just cherry pick.


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Old 4th February 2019, 07:36 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The right to vote, obviously.
Huh??

*checks thread title*



*checks again*

Wha...
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Old 4th February 2019, 07:52 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They're already so enjoined.
The protections are becoming less robust, IMO, as SCOTUS chips away at the voting rights act.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You sure have a lot to say, for someone who apparently hasn't yet stopped to think about it.
What makes you think I haven't stopped to think about it?
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Old 4th February 2019, 07:58 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
We turn up at the Polling Booth, give a name and address and get a Ballot Paper to fill in. If your name and address are on the electoral roll, that's it. No identification more than that required. Yet we change Governments all the time and vote Members in and out regularly and there has never been any serious suggestions by anybody of widespread voter fraud or manipulation of the vote.
And if somebody has died, it could be flagged by cross-referencing to Vital Statistics or whatever agency certifies that someone has died.

Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
It aint broke so we don't fix it.
Yeah but the U.S. is, uh, exceptional and it would never work here

We don't want to become a dictatorship like Oz ...
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:32 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If.
Is this the 5 minute Bob, or is it the full hour?
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:40 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Thanks for posting that.

Re the last point highlighted, that would in fact not happen. We are just too damned cynical for too many of us to be sucked in by huckster-style campaigning. By way of example, witness the current TV-based joke that is Clive Palmer. Gawd almighty, what an UTTER PRAT!!
Is he the dude who appears to be flooding social media with Trumpesque bull crap party political broadcasts?

I keep getting youtube ads from him, last one I glanced at before hitting skip he was talking about Chinese taking over our infrastructure. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on that (other than you can only sell stuff off once), but the advert was playing what looked like soldiers from WWII standing to attention next to an Australian flag in the sunset. What that image had anything at all to do with what was being said I have no idea. I guess the subliminal message is if you don't agree then you aint a patriot.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:42 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Is this the 5 minute Bob, or is it the full hour?
(python? )
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:46 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
And if somebody has died, it could be flagged by cross-referencing to Vital Statistics or whatever agency certifies that someone has died.
It would all come out in the wash. If they didn't vote cos they were dead, then govmt would try and track them down after to fine them at which point their mortality status would become evident.
Quote:
Yeah but the U.S. is, uh, exceptional and it would never work here

We don't want to become a dictatorship like Oz ...
DON't TAKE OUR GUNS!!!!
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:13 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Compensation from whom? The government? How? Government doesn't have money, since taxation is theft.
Libertarianism is a broad ideology with different scheme's for funding. Not all of them think taxation is wrong. Other strategies involve donations or fees.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:18 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Is he the dude who appears to be flooding social media with Trumpesque bull crap party political broadcasts?

I keep getting youtube ads from him, last one I glanced at before hitting skip he was talking about Chinese taking over our infrastructure. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on that (other than you can only sell stuff off once), but the advert was playing what looked like soldiers from WWII standing to attention next to an Australian flag in the sunset. What that image had anything at all to do with what was being said I have no idea. I guess the subliminal message is if you don't agree then you aint a patriot.
That is indeed the guy. And he parallels Donny in that he totally ****-canned his own nickel-mining business through appalling management, tried to get out of paying his shareholders from that debacle, associated himself with Pauline, got into politics, got laughed out of that in short order, talked someone into bankrolling him again to run his nickel mines (Chinese investors??), and is once again trying to get back into politics.

He will get votes in redneck Queensland only. A horrifying joke.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:19 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
DON't TAKE OUR GUNS!!!!
Yeah! What he said!

But first I will have to buy a gun for you to take. So give me a few weeks, OK?
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 4th February 2019 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:22 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What I mean is that in this case, by forcing you to do something, the government is protecting your freedom. You don't think that's a bit counter-intuitive? That doesn't mean that it's false, of course.
Much like being forced to pay taxes actually serves to protect one's wealth, when the taxes are being handled properly. Yes.

Personally, I'm not especially invested to either side, but I'm more sympathetic to not being forced to vote. That, though, is primarily based on the fact that I'm used to situations where informing oneself so that a properly informed decision can be made frequently requires going far out of one's way and can easily be affected by half-truths and outright lies that are being spread.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:56 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
However with mandatory voting, much of that disappears because the onus is reversed. Such tactics that prevent you from voting are immediately illegal. Disenfranchisement, hiding polling booths, voter suppression - illegal. Straight to the courts for prosecution if found. If you want to think about it in terms of rights, mandatory voting is a solid protection for your right to vote as a citizen.
You don't understand how things are done here. We are experts at twisting a law until it achieves the exact opposite of what was intended.

Disenfranchisement, hiding polling booths, voter suppression etc. are already illegal. Right now that only affects people who want to vote, with no legal repercussions for them it they don't. But with mandatory voting the same voter suppression techniques can be used to permanently eradicate 'undesirables'. First you prevent them from voting, then you arrest them for not voting! Finally you brand them as criminals, making it illegal for them to vote in the future.

Quote:
Your voting right cannot be refused or removed for any reason at any time (except under certain legal conditions)..
The key word being 'legal'. There are a hundred ways this little loophole could be exploited - and will be!

Another problem with your idea is logistics. Around half of eligible voters currently don't vote, and some districts already have problems handling the numbers. With twice as many voting (and getting angry because a) they are doing it under duress, and b) they might be arrested for not voting) it would be bedlam. After one episode of that I bet the most popular candidates will be those who promise to repeal the law.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:07 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But with mandatory voting the same voter suppression techniques can be used to permanently eradicate 'undesirables'. First you prevent them from voting, then you arrest them for not voting! Finally you brand them as criminals, making it illegal for them to vote in the future.
Are you trying to move this thread into the CT section?
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:18 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But first I will have to buy a gun for you to take. So give me a few weeks, OK?
Haven't you heard? Due to a small amendment slipped into the latest gun legislation, owning a firearm is now not only a right, it's mandatory. And due to the new one-strike law, not producing a properly licensed weapon on demand is a felony with a minimum jail term of 5 years.

How did this happen? Well you see, someone thought that having a national firearms license would be a great way of giving voters a suitable form of ID...

And I'm sure you will agree that being armed at all times is every citizen's civic duty.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:04 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Haven't you heard? Due to a small amendment slipped into the latest gun legislation, owning a firearm is now not only a right, it's mandatory. And due to the new one-strike law, not producing a properly licensed weapon on demand is a felony with a minimum jail term of 5 years.

How did this happen? Well you see, someone thought that having a national firearms license would be a great way of giving voters a suitable form of ID...

And I'm sure you will agree that being armed at all times is every citizen's civic duty.
yeeeeers, not really the same thing though is it...

Although, oddly I can almost imagine the States enshrining that one in their constitution. I mean there wouldn't be the same objection as say - mandatory voting.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:19 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
yeeeeers, not really the same thing though is it...

Although, oddly I can almost imagine the States enshrining that one in their constitution. I mean there wouldn't be the same objection as say - mandatory voting.
It's almost like they fear a person with a vote more than they fear a person with a gun. Next thing you know, there'll be the news network reporting on an active voter being cornered in a shopping centre, and concern about the likelihood of a mass voting.

I mean, it's about as plausible as other scenarios in this thread....
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Old 5th February 2019, 03:32 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The key word being 'legal'. There are a hundred ways this little loophole could be exploited - and will be!
Given how close that is to the 13th amendment, I'd say "has been." The ongoing pushback by the current Democrats against such things is a good thing and a good sign, but it's certainly worth remembering that there's still quite a ways to go and a lot of likely generational damage already done, especially in the more southern states.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are you trying to move this thread into the CT section?
If only. The US has a rather nasty past, unfortunately, and the GOP's decided to rest its much of its current fortunes especially on the remnants of those who are trying to bring back some of that nastiness, thanks to the Koch's Tea Party strategy and Trump's capitalization upon that.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:20 AM   #276
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"We have to have the government make everybody vote to counter the effects of the government suppressing votes" doesn't make any kind of sense.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:24 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm holding out for actual arguments.
I repeat: arguments you don't agree with are still arguments.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:25 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If.
How very Spartan of you.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Huh??

*checks thread title*



*checks again*

Wha...
Allow me to help: theprestige's point is that if you're forced to vote, it's not a right anymore; it's a duty.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:29 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Allow me to help: theprestige's point is that if you're forced to vote, it's not a right anymore; it's a duty.
Which, even if I don't agree with his ultimate conclusion, is a perfectly valid argument.

Nobody words it or conceptualizes it as we have "the right to pay our taxes" regardless if we want the tax rate to be 0% or 70%.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:29 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Libertarianism is a broad ideology with different scheme's for funding. Not all of them think taxation is wrong. Other strategies involve donations or fees.
Interesting dodge.
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