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Old 5th February 2019, 06:38 AM   #281
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Interesting dodge.
What is the Dodge? You asked how does it work for a group that thinks taxation is theft. I pointed out that it isn't an issue for the ones that don't think taxation is theft, and pointed out two methods proposed by the portion that does think taxes are theft. I'm not sure what else you are looking for.

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Old 5th February 2019, 07:48 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What is the Dodge? You asked how does it work for a group that thinks taxation is theft. I pointed out that it isn't an issue for the ones that don't think taxation is theft, and pointed out two methods proposed by the portion that does think taxes are theft. I'm not sure what else you are looking for.
The dodge is that I wasn't talking about a group, and you know it.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:43 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The dodge is that I wasn't talking about a group, and you know it.
Did you mean me personally?
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:48 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Did you mean me personally?
I have no opinion on that.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:56 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Thank you for your carefully considered response to what I had to say. I can see you are interested in the topic and give thoughtful and intelligent replies to all the points that I made and not just cherry pick.


Norm
Why use many words, when one will do?

Telling someone they have to vote doesn't solve the problem of them not being registered to vote.

There's people living in Australia who aren't entitled to vote there. They have names and addresses, but shouldn't be on any voter rolls. And there's probably people who should be on the rolls, but aren't.

Mandatory voting isn't a solution for keeping those two groups separate. As you say, mandatory voting comes into play only if you're already registered. To me, that's a pretty significant If.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:57 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why use many words, when one will do?

Telling someone they have to vote doesn't solve the problem of them not being registered to vote.
It does if the law requires everybody to be automatically registered by the state.

Do you think I have to register to vote, in Canada?
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:58 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Huh??



*checks thread title*







*checks again*



Wha...
Like Belz... said. You can't exercise a right under duress. The thread title should have been your first clue.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:04 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It does if the law requires everybody to be automatically registered by the state.



Do you think I have to register to vote, in Canada?
If the problem is voter registration, then it might be solved by mandatory and automatic voter registration. No need to bring mandatory voting into it at all.

And if the problem of voter suppression is mainly a problem of voter registration, then it's probably better to focus on registration reform, rather than pushing mandatory voting as some kind of panacea.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:06 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If the problem is voter registration, then it might be solved by mandatory and automatic voter registration. No need to bring mandatory voting into it at all.
The problem mandatory voting is meant to solve isn't, from my POV, voter registration, suppression or district gerrymandering, but rather turnout.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:13 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I have no opinion on that.
Then it is really good I didn't ask for your opinion.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:16 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then it is really good I didn't ask for your opinion.
I have no opinion on the truth value of the fact your post was refering to.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:18 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The problem mandatory voting is meant to solve isn't, from my POV, voter registration, suppression or district gerrymandering, but rather turnout.
Yup. Hence my "if" for Norm. I think turnout is a bull **** problem that doesn't justify mandatory voting.

And I think voter suppression is a real problem that isn't solved by mandatory voting.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:34 AM   #293
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I kind of think that's where, at least some, of our disconnect is.

"Registering to vote" being this separate distinct... thing from voting itself.

Basically in other country's "systems" it seems like in general "Show up at the voting booth and be told you can't vote because some previous activity was not completed/completed correctly" just isn't a thing that can happen.

So if clarify to "Mandatory voter registration" instead of "Actually mandating the action of voting" does that change things?
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:55 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like Belz... said. You can't exercise a right under duress. The thread title should have been your first clue.
What "duress" is that? Is it "duress" that you must pay your taxes? How about thinking of it as an obligation - if you live in this country and are qualified to vote then you are obliged to do so. Better?

Just to be clear: This mandatory voting situation in Australia is for federal and state elections, and referendums, i.e. infrequent major events. Most other voting situations such as local council elections are, in fact, not mandatory. Also, we don't elect public officials, like judges and police chiefs. It seems to us that the USA elects just about every authority position, down to and including dog-catcher.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:56 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What "duress" is that? Is it "duress" that you must pay your taxes?
No but nobody is saying "You have a right to pay your taxes." You have a duty or obligation to pay your taxes, not a right to. If it's a 'right' you don't have to do it.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:06 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think turnout is a bull **** problem that doesn't justify mandatory voting.
Offers of fifths of whisky, then?

Quote:
And I think voter suppression is a real problem that isn't solved by mandatory voting.
It's certainly badly exacerbated by a voluntary voting environment. All that is required is to make it so damned difficult for people to attend that the time and effort required to vote far exceeds the ability to do so. Then they can claim, with some legal backing, that the people they wanted to disenfranchise "didn't voluntarily attend". It's a legal quagmire that the unscrupulous exploit to the full.

Whereas with mandatory voting, the law is phrased such that voters MUST be allowed access to voting places in the time period prescribed. Preventing people voting is viewed and acted on rigorously. So such efforts to suppress voting can be rightly seen as them actively and illegally preventing people doing their civic duty. And that it is clearly and obviously illegal to do so. And you can land on them from a great height. With guns if you have to.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:07 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What "duress" is that? Is it "duress" that you must pay your taxes?
Well, yes. But more importantly, paying your taxes is not a right.

Damn. Ninja'd by Joe.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:11 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Whereas with mandatory voting, the law is phrased such that voters MUST be allowed access to voting places in the time period prescribed.
And you're just aggressively avoiding why "access to" requires "make them do it."

Nobody thinks less of the current state of voter turnout in American then I do. There's not one valid reason to not vote as far as I'm concerned, but this idea that the only way to give people the "freedom" to do something is to force them to do it is like a strawman of totalitarianism.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:12 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No but nobody is saying "You have a right to pay your taxes." You have a duty or obligation to pay your taxes, not a right to. If it's a 'right' you don't have to do it.
Not quite. There are indeed people in Australia who have no right to vote, including some citizens. This is legally prescribed, and gets argued about all the time. Those of us who do have that right are legally obliged to exercise it at certain times, when the voice of the whole nation is required to be heard.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:13 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not quite. There are indeed people in Australia who have no right to vote, including some citizens. This is legally prescribed, and gets argued about all the time. Those of us who do have that right are legally obliged to exercise it at certain times, when the voice of the whole nation is required to be heard.
That makes... no sense.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:20 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not quite. There are indeed people in Australia who have no right to vote, including some citizens. This is legally prescribed, and gets argued about all the time. Those of us who do have that right are legally obliged to exercise it at certain times, when the voice of the whole nation is required to be heard.
Again, it's not a right if you're compelled to do it. It's an obligation. Call it as such.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:22 AM   #302
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If we could ever balance a discussion anywhere between "I'm right because the dictionary says so" and "I'm just gonna use this word in a way totally different from anyway that anyone else uses it and act shocked when my meaning isn't clear" for more than like a page of a thread that would just be super.

Okay fine it's a "right" if you use "right" in a some special new way that nobody ever uses. Also a dog has 5 legs if you call a tail a leg.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:25 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And you're just aggressively avoiding why "access to" requires "make them do it."

Nobody thinks less of the current state of voter turnout in American then I do. There's not one valid reason to not vote as far as I'm concerned, but this idea that the only way to give people the "freedom" to do something is to force them to do it is like a strawman of totalitarianism.
Again, you seem to be mistaking "getting your name ticked off" (and that includes mail-in) with "cast a vote". Mandatory voting is the former, not the latter.

The punishment for failure to attend is hardly onerous. It involves a small fine and questions why you didn't get your name ticked off anywhere. Roughly the equivalent of being grilled for skipping class for the day.

The "freedom" bit is that without your name on that electoral roll, you don't get a vote. It is a right you do not have. You get no say. Just like US "illegals".
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:31 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That makes... no sense.
Why not? With rights comes responsibilities. One of ours is participation in the voting process. In other countries it is national service in the military.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Again, it's not a right if you're compelled to do it. It's an obligation. Call it as such.
Uh, no. Only those with the right can be obligated. You earn your stripes, you get the right to issue orders, but the obligation to do so even when you don't really feel like it.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:33 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Uh, no. Only those with the right can be obligated.
Rights must come with the element of choice. You're saying that those with no right can't vote, and those with a right must. There is no choice involved.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:37 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If we could ever balance a discussion anywhere between "I'm right because the dictionary says so" and "I'm just gonna use this word in a way totally different from anyway that anyone else uses it and act shocked when my meaning isn't clear" for more than like a page of a thread that would just be super.

Okay fine it's a "right" if you use "right" in a some special new way that nobody ever uses. Also a dog has 5 legs if you call a tail a leg.
Tell me what rights you think we lose with mandatory voting. So far, the only one I can glean is "the right to not vote". That is, to not make a choice. Correct?
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:38 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Rights must come with the element of choice. You're saying that those with no right can't vote, and those with a right must. There is no choice involved.
Before I respond, please describe what you think "must vote" means to you.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:43 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Before I respond, please describe what you think "must vote" means to you.
No need, since you've already clarified what that means. It changes nothing of what I said: if you have no choice in the matter, it is not a right.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:46 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No need, since you've already clarified what that means. It changes nothing of what I said: if you have no choice in the matter, it is not a right.
Since your position seems to be predicated on something I have specifically said is NOT the case, I don't want to keep pushing on this without making sure we are not at cross-purposes. So would you indulge me by clarifying what "must vote" in the sense of "mandatory voting" means to you.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:48 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Since your position seems to be predicated on something I have specifically said is NOT the case, I don't want to keep pushing on this without making sure we are not at cross-purposes. So would you indulge me by clarifying what "must vote" in the sense of "mandatory voting" means to you.
<sigh> It means that you have to participate in the democratic process one way or another.

Look, how about you answer what I said rather than weirdly making your response dependant on something that is largely irrelevant to it?

Stop playing around. What choice do you have under mandatory voting?
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:22 AM   #311
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My experience as a teacher says that those that are too lazy to do something tend to find reasons to justify not doing things after the fact. Making things easier, more accessible, etc, has a fairly negligible impact on results.

I don’t think making it a holiday is necessary. I’m more inclined to think the idea of a polling location will be obsolete in some of our lifetimes. Mail voting, online voting, two week windows, etc will be the way to go. E
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:00 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Tell me what rights you think we lose with mandatory voting. So far, the only one I can glean is "the right to not vote". That is, to not make a choice. Correct?
What more do you need?
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Old 5th February 2019, 04:53 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
<sigh> It means that you have to participate in the democratic process one way or another.

Look, how about you answer what I said rather than weirdly making your response dependant on something that is largely irrelevant to it?

Stop playing around. What choice do you have under mandatory voting?
Just to be clear: I'm not arguing that mandatory voting is not an infringement on your "freedom" in an absolute nit-picking sense. It is, in that you are obliged to participate in the democratic process even if you would rather not.

However in practical terms, it is hardly an onerous imposition at all. For us, maybe ten minutes once per 2 years approximately. So we at least try to take it a bit seriously when we do vote (well, more seriously than football teams). And even then we can protest by "not voting for any of the stupid bastards" and dropping a blank paper in the slot. Plus it's a nice day out usually. Seriously, that's too much to bear??

And even if I stubbornly refused to even show up, it's still not a big thing. I just become a statistic and cop a small fine - way less than a parking ticket. And has been noted long way above, there are people who refuse to register anyway, because of pretty much the reasons stated by our US respondents as "freedom to not vote". We do have our off-the-gridders and hippies and hoboes in beach-shacks who just want to be left alone. So nobody knows they haven't voted. But they are few and far between.
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Old 5th February 2019, 04:56 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What more do you need?
So you agree that your idea of mandatory voting is "must cast a valid vote and choose a candidate". Correct?
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Old 5th February 2019, 04:58 PM   #315
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So you agree that your idea of mandatory voting is "must cast a valid vote and choose a candidate". Correct?
Rule of So. Try again.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:02 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Spock Jenkins View Post
My experience as a teacher says that those that are too lazy to do something tend to find reasons to justify not doing things after the fact. Making things easier, more accessible, etc, has a fairly negligible impact on results.

I donít think making it a holiday is necessary. Iím more inclined to think the idea of a polling location will be obsolete in some of our lifetimes. Mail voting, online voting, two week windows, etc will be the way to go. E
The argument here in Australia for making it one day only, 8am to 6pm and results not published until after polling closes, is to do with media coverage. Knowing how the results are going in the morning (or the day before) may affect decisions on how later voters will vote. I'm not sure that is entirely relevant these days, with online exit polls, instant social media reporting, etc.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:19 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Just to be clear: I'm not arguing that mandatory voting is not an infringement on your "freedom" in an absolute nit-picking sense.
Argh, you almost said something reasonable but then you had to write that last part.

It's not nit-picky: it's the exact opposite of what a right IS. That doesn't mean that mandatory voting is necessarily a bad thing, but that you can't admit that it IS an actual infringement seems to suggest that you think it would be a bad thing if it did.

Quote:
However in practical terms, it is hardly an onerous imposition at all.
No argument there. I never argue package deals: each argument can be debated or evaluated separately without necessarily impacting other arguments or the larger topic. So I'm quite OK with mandatory voting removing the right to vote and replacing it with an obligation if such a thing can be demonstrated to have a net benefit.

Quote:
Seriously, that's too much to bear??
You're asking the wrong person. I never said or implied that it was; quite the opposite, in fact, if you've seen my exchanges with theprestige.

Quote:
And even if I stubbornly refused to even show up, it's still not a big thing. I just become a statistic and cop a small fine - way less than a parking ticket.
Which seems to undermine the entire idea, though.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:20 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Rule of So. Try again.
It's not the rule of so. He asked you whether his interpretation was correct. You could have just answered with your actual position.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:21 PM   #319
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I shouldn't have to pay the government *anything*, for the right to not vote if I don't want to.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:33 PM   #320
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I shouldn't have to pay the government *anything*, for the right to not vote if I don't want to.
Agreed. We turn up, get our name ticked off, get the ballot paper, ignore whatever is on it, fold it up and stick it in the ballot box, go and see what's on at the fete. No vote, job done, all legal, no cost.
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