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Tags racism charges , racism incidents , Ralph Northam , Virginia politics

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Old 5th February 2019, 05:17 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
No, but you live in reality, which is well-documented that liberals are biased.
Ftfy
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:19 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
face palm.
Face palm what? AC is entirely correct.

Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Exactly this.
Exactly not. If that's what you think, then you have not paid attention to what AC or I have been saying, and are simply reacting in a "not like me must mean opposite to me" way.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
No, but you live in reality, which has a well-documented liberal bias.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:21 AM   #363
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...I literally just wrote a post explaining how I'm not a liberal. I know some Americans find this concept hard to grasp sometimes, but countries other than America exist.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:28 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Blimey. You'd have thought that someone who's been as clearly and openly critical of Northam as I have been in this thread wouldn't be accused of trying to distract from accusations against Northam, but here we are.

Once more, for the record - I think Northam should be impeached. I think he should be removed from office. I don't buy the excuses some are making for him, and I think that his behaviour since the photo came to light has only made the case for removing him stronger.

And just to reiterate, as I have to do every now and then for the hard of thinking - I'm not partisan. I do not favour Democrats over Republicans. One contributing factor to this - I'm not American. I belong to neither party, and neither party means anything to me. Nobody discussed in this subforum represents me, or is someone I have any kind of emotional attachment to - because I'm not American. And, frankly, I come from a country in which the default behaviour is to distrust, criticise, and mock politicians. The reverence with which some Americans regard politicians on their "side" seems very odd to me, and a little creepy. And, given that it leads to the kind of thoughtless god-worship of Trump that exists (and nonsense platitudes like that people should "respect the office of President" even if they don't respect the person), I think it's also dangerous.

Oh, and, if you read what I posted and what I posted it in reply to, and think really, really hard (you know, until it hurts), it should be possible to work out that it had absolutely nothing to do with any photo at all. Give it a try! It's fun!
I really don't know how you can get to impeached. He didn't commit a high crime or misdemeanor. Now weather he should or shouldn't be governor is something else.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:30 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
...I literally just wrote a post explaining how I'm not a liberal. I know some Americans find this concept hard to grasp sometimes, but countries other than America exist.
And gray is also a colour, and there's more than one shade of it. But that's another idea some here seem to have a problem with.

As FMW said I think this man's reaction to this news doesn't reflect well on him. He pulled a Kavanaugh, essentially, and it might be the end of his political career. Meh.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:55 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really don't know how you can get to impeached. He didn't commit a high crime or misdemeanor.
Impeachment doesn't necessarily imply either of those things. What is or is not impeachable is a little fuzzy around the edges: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/p...nt/2755344002/

Quote:
John Dinan, a professor who specializes in state constitutionalism and state politics at Wake Forest University, told the Washington Post that despite the vague wording, impeachment could still threaten Northam’s governorship and set up a test for the state’s Constitution.

“We do not have a clear standard of what constitutes an impeachable offense,” he told The Post, which noted that no governor in the state’s history had been removed from office through impeachment.
The way I see it, if Northam is impeached for past racist actions then that will be a step on the road towards holding politicians to a higher standard than they currently are, and could act as a catalyst for other impeachments - most notably of Admitted Actual Nazi Steve King. Of course, this means that it'll never happen, but I think it'd be a positive thing for US politics if it did.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:14 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post

The way I see it, if Northam is impeached for past racist actions then that will be a step on the road towards holding politicians to a higher standard than they currently are, and could act as a catalyst for other impeachments - most notably of Admitted Actual Nazi Steve King. Of course, this means that it'll never happen, but I think it'd be a positive thing for US politics if it did.
I doubt it would affect Steve King or other Republicans that have Republican congress backing. Trump is still in office and he's done many impeachable things and should have been impeached about 2 years ago.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:45 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Impeachment doesn't necessarily imply either of those things. What is or is not impeachable is a little fuzzy around the edges: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/p...nt/2755344002/

The way I see it, if Northam is impeached for past racist actions then that will be a step on the road towards holding politicians to a higher standard than they currently are, and could act as a catalyst for other impeachments - most notably of Admitted Actual Nazi Steve King. Of course, this means that it'll never happen, but I think it'd be a positive thing for US politics if it did.
I usually hate the slippery slope argument. But you seem to be traveling on it. I grant you that theoretically you can impeach someone for trying their shoe laces wrong. As for a higher standard, I think you're going for perfection and purity. I simply will not hold a 60 year old man accountable for a non-criminal act committed when they were twenty four.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:58 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I usually hate the slippery slope argument. But you seem to be traveling on it.
How so?

Quote:
As for a higher standard, I think you're going for perfection and purity.
If that were true, then everybody would have a secret blackface/KKK incident in their past. They don't. And you are, again, ignoring his behaviour in the past week.

I think it's a false dichotomy that there's only "perfection and purity" on the one hand and "has done actual racist things that they are still unrepentant about" on the other. I think many people - both in and out of politics - will fall somewhere between those two poles.

Quote:
I simply will not hold a 60 year old man accountable for a non-criminal act committed when they were twenty four.
Had he been genuinely contrite and showed signs that he had learnt and grown in the mean time, I'd agree with you. But the opposite is true.

To provide a counter-example, I think the current backlash against Liam Neeson is stupid and ignores both the context and content of what he said.
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:01 AM   #370
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I think the idea is to get a critical mass of Republicans on record as pushing for impeachment despite this not being criminal. Then when those same Republicans refuse to impeach one of their own you can play the quotes back, and I guess have a good wank about how morally superior you are because that's literally the only thing it'll be good for. "Oh no, a Republican is being a rank hypocrite, I must rethink my voting preferences" said no one ever.
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:25 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Any chance
No.
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:37 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
How so?

If that were true, then everybody would have a secret blackface/KKK incident in their past. They don't. And you are, again, ignoring his behaviour in the past week.

I think it's a false dichotomy that there's only "perfection and purity" on the one hand and "has done actual racist things that they are still unrepentant about" on the other. I think many people - both in and out of politics - will fall somewhere between those two poles.
No, that's an exaggeration. You just want the Governor gone for this. And lets be honest. This is a one off. But I watched Al Franken resign from the US Senate over an over-sensitive Democratic party seeking some kind of purity over where he put his hands when hugging fans.

Now AS someone who votes for progressive candidates and thinks we have a long way to go in solving race issues, I'm sympathetic to the opinions from people of color on this. I want what is best for the party and the country.
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:51 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, that's an exaggeration.
What am I exaggerating? You keep accusing me of random things in weird non-sequiturs and then not explaining what on Earth you're talking about.

Quote:
You just want the Governor gone for this.
I've explained my reasoning. If the best rebuttal you can come up with is to accuse me of lying about it, then I don't really know what to say.

Quote:
But I watched Al Franken resign from the US Senate over an over-sensitive Democratic party seeking some kind of purity over where he put his hands when hugging fans.
Now that is a minimisation what actually happened. He resigned because he was accused of multiple instances of sexual assault, including forcibly kissing someone, and groping people's buttocks and breasts.

Again, I think there's a middle ground between "committing sexual assault multiple times" and "perfection and purity".

Note: none of the above is commenting on whether or not the accusations were true, and whether or not Franken should have resigned. It's simply a comment on your bizarre insistence on false dichotomies.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:05 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
What am I exaggerating? You keep accusing me of random things in weird non-sequiturs and then not explaining what on Earth you're talking about.
Call it hyperbole then. You said
'If that were true, then everybody would have a secret blackface/KKK incident in their past.'

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post

Now that is a minimisation what actually happened. He resigned because he was accused of multiple instances of sexual assault, including forcibly kissing someone, and groping people's buttocks and breasts.

Again, I think there's a middle ground between "committing sexual assault multiple times" and "perfection and purity".

Note: none of the above is commenting on whether or not the accusations were true, and whether or not Franken should have resigned. It's simply a comment on your bizarre insistence on false dichotomies.
No, it's not. There was the picture of the comedian on a tour with other comedians where Franken feigned grabbing the breasts of a female comedian. And there were women who said upon meeting him, he touched them inappropriately.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:27 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Call it hyperbole then. You said
'If that were true, then everybody would have a secret blackface/KKK incident in their past.'
How's that hyperbole? I said that politicians should be held to the higher standard of not having yearbook pictures of them in blackface/KKK robes and you said that that standard was "perfection and purity". If it's only possible to not have an incident of blackface/wearing KKK robes in your past is if you're perfect, then everybody must have such an incident in their past.

To be clear - your false dichotomy was, and remains, stupid. Demonstrating this is not hyperbole or an exaggeration. At best what you've said is that your statement that the standard of "not having a blackface/KKK incident in your past" requires "perfection" is hyperbolic and exaggerated. Which, sure. That's one of the reasons why is was, and remains, stupid.

Quote:
o, it's not. There was the picture of the comedian on a tour with other comedians where Franken feigned grabbing the breasts of a female comedian. And there were women who said upon meeting him, he touched them inappropriately.
And the forcible kissing.

And, yes it is a minimisation to say that complaining about sexual assault is just wanting "some kind of purity over where he put his hands when hugging fans". You could equally say that not thinking it right that Trump walked into the dressing room of Miss World contestants while they were changing was wanting "some kind of purity over walking into a room", but it's minimising what happened and what the implications are. Hell, you could describe "grab them by the pussy" as just being "where he put his hands". I hope you wouldn't pretend that that really encapsulated the whole story, though.

To be clear - groping people without their consent is sexual assault. Choosing to phrase it as "where he put his hands" doesn't actually change that. It just makes it seem that you want to make excuses for it and pretend it's not a big deal.

If you want to defend Franken on the grounds that you don't think he did what he was accused of, then fine. If you want to defend Franken on the grounds that there was no investigation into what he was accused of and therefore nobody can know whether or not he did it, then fine. If you want to defend Franken on the grounds that it's okay to sexually assault people, then that's not fine.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:46 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
How's that hyperbole? I said that politicians should be held to the higher standard of not having yearbook pictures of them in blackface/KKK robes and you said that that standard was "perfection and purity". If it's only possible to not have an incident of blackface/wearing KKK robes in your past is if you're perfect, then everybody must have such an incident in their past.

To be clear - your false dichotomy was, and remains, stupid. Demonstrating this is not hyperbole or an exaggeration. At best what you've said is that your statement that the standard of "not having a blackface/KKK incident in your past" requires "perfection" is hyperbolic and exaggerated. Which, sure. That's one of the reasons why is was, and remains, stupid.
I don't think it is false. I think you're expecting human beings not to have made mistakes when they were young and clueless.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And the forcible kissing.

And, yes it is a minimisation to say that complaining about sexual assault is just wanting "some kind of purity over where he put his hands when hugging fans". You could equally say that not thinking it right that Trump walked into the dressing room of Miss World contestants while they were changing was wanting "some kind of purity over walking into a room", but it's minimising what happened and what the implications are. Hell, you could describe "grab them by the pussy" as just being "where he put his hands". I hope you wouldn't pretend that that really encapsulated the whole story, though.

To be clear - groping people without their consent is sexual assault. Choosing to phrase it as "where he put his hands" doesn't actually change that. It just makes it seem that you want to make excuses for it and pretend it's not a big deal.

If you want to defend Franken on the grounds that you don't think he did what he was accused of, then fine. If you want to defend Franken on the grounds that there was no investigation into what he was accused of and therefore nobody can know whether or not he did it, then fine. If you want to defend Franken on the grounds that it's okay to sexually assault people, then that's not fine.
No. What I am saying is that Franken put his hand around someone and they felt that his hand was too high or too low and thought he was copping a feel. That WAS their experience of the incident. Did any of these women say he placed his hand on their vagina? I don't recall that. I've never heard Al say misogynistic statements.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:06 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think it is false. I think you're expecting human beings not to have made mistakes when they were young and clueless.
Yes, I know that that's what you seem to think, no matter how many times I say what I actually mean - including specific refutations of this point, even giving an example of someone who confessed to something much worse that I think is undeserving of the backlash he's getting. That you choose to keep repeating the same thing despite the facts isn't something I have any power to change, beyond either correcting you yet again, or simply imploring you to address what I'm actually saying rather than keeping battling a straw man.

And you're still pushing the idea that everybody has something like this in their past. This doesn't become a less stupid thing to say if you repeat it a bunch of times.

Quote:
No. What I am saying is that Franken put his hand around someone and they felt that his hand was too high or too low and thought he was copping a feel. That WAS their experience of the incident.
Now you're speaking for people, contradicting their own statements on the matter, asserting that you know what their experiences were better than they do.

Quote:
Did any of these women say he placed his hand on their vagina? I don't recall that. I've never heard Al say misogynistic statements.
Another straw man.

I hope you don't think I'm holding you to an impossibly high standard of perfection and purity if I say I think you can make better arguments than this.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:30 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Yes, I know that that's what you seem to think, no matter how many times I say what I actually mean - including specific refutations of this point, even giving an example of someone who confessed to something much worse that I think is undeserving of the backlash he's getting. That you choose to keep repeating the same thing despite the facts isn't something I have any power to change, beyond either correcting you yet again, or simply imploring you to address what I'm actually saying rather than keeping battling a straw man.

And you're still pushing the idea that everybody has something like this in their past. This doesn't become a less stupid thing to say if you repeat it a bunch of times.
I'm NOT saying everyone has something in their past... (btw, there is no 'like this'. Each situation is unique) I just believe there should be a reasonable statute of limitations. Reaching back 3 decades seems ridiculous. What the Governor has done since is 100 times more important to me.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I hope you don't think I'm holding you to an impossibly high standard of perfection and purity if I say I think you can make better arguments than this.
Good one.

My point is that each situation is unique. But I watch Republicans forgive their politicians for EVERYTHING...all the time consolidating power and in contrast Democrats trying to prove they are pure of thought and spirit in comparison cutting off their noses to spite their face.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:50 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm NOT saying everyone has something in their past...
Then thinking politicians should be held to a higher standard than "having a blackface/KKK incident in their past" isn't holding them to a standard of "perfection and purity", is it? There should be no problem in holding politicians to that standard.

Quote:
What the Governor has done since is 100 times more important to me.
...and, as I've said a million times, how he's acted over the last few days demonstrates that he hasn't learnt or grown since then. If he had shown that he was genuinely sorry, had genuinely changed, and genuinely understood why it was wrong, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But that's the opposite of what he's done.

Quote:
But I watch Republicans forgive their politicians for EVERYTHING...all the time consolidating power and in contrast Democrats trying to prove they are pure of thought and spirit in comparison cutting off their noses to spite their face.
You can look at where the Republican party - and US politics - is now and think "I want to be more like that. I want politics to be more like this", or you can reject it.

Trump is a consequence of, amongst other things, the Republican party putting party before anything else - of forgiving their guys anything because they're their guys. If you think the Democrats should also go down that road, then you're just looking towards them having their own Trump in a few decades.

I think that the ideal is for politics to become less corrupt, sleazy, and tribal, not more.

And, while I'm not going to make any predictions for the future, I've seen several commentators suggest that Trump is the beginning of the end for the Republican party.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:04 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Then thinking politicians should be held to a higher standard than "having a blackface/KKK incident in their past" isn't holding them to a standard of "perfection and purity", is it? There should be no problem in holding politicians to that standard.
When they were 25? I'm not having it. Don't care.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
..and, as I've said a million times, how he's acted over the last few days demonstrates that he hasn't learnt or grown since then. If he had shown that he was genuinely sorry, had genuinely changed, and genuinely understood why it was wrong, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But that's the opposite of what he's done.
Which I have repeatedly said is more important. He certainly has fumbled it.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You can look at where the Republican party - and US politics - is now and think "I want to be more like that. I want politics to be more like this", or you can reject it.

Trump is a consequence of, amongst other things, the Republican party putting party before anything else - of forgiving their guys anything because they're their guys. If you think the Democrats should also go down that road, then you're just looking towards them having their own Trump in a few decades.

I think that the ideal is for politics to become less corrupt, sleazy, and tribal, not more.

And, while I'm not going to make any predictions for the future, I've seen several commentators suggest that Trump is the beginning of the end for the Republican party.
It's not that I want to be like them. It's that I think Health insurance, a clean environment, better education, better wages, a more fair income distribution and actual minority rights is more important than a pyhrric victory of purity.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:16 AM   #381
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I've been thinking, I think that in 1984 I knew black face was racist and a bad idea and wouldn't have dressed as a klansmen for some sort of costume ball but, the evidence is that we tend to forget that we ever thought differently than we do now.

Also, in 1986 the movie Soul Man was released. Starring C Thomas Howell in blackface as a white guy that gets in to harvard on a scholarship meant for black people. This film also starred Rae Dawn Chong and James Earl Rae. Times were truly different.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:28 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I've been thinking, I think that in 1984 I knew black face was racist and a bad idea and wouldn't have dressed as a klansmen for some sort of costume ball but, the evidence is that we tend to forget that we ever thought differently than we do now.

Also, in 1986 the movie Soul Man was released. Starring C Thomas Howell in blackface as a white guy that gets in to harvard on a scholarship meant for black people. This film also starred Rae Dawn Chong and James Earl Rae. Times were truly different.
What's weird is I could see myself doing almost ANYTHING as a joke. Now, I never did those things. But I can't say it was because I was sensitive about race relations. I just never thought that what I did mattered even if someone found it offensive. The closest I ever got to wearing blackface was when I dressed up as a character from Star Trek who was half white and half black.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:31 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The closest I ever got to wearing blackface was when I dressed up as a character from Star Trek who was half white and half black.
But black on which side?
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:34 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
When they were 25? I'm not having it. Don't care.
I know you don't. That doesn't mean that people who do are holding politicians to an impossible standard of "perfection and purity".

Quote:
Which I have repeatedly said is more important. He certainly has fumbled it.
Then you've chosen a strange hill to die on by defending him.

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It's not that I want to be like them. It's that I think Health insurance, a clean environment, better education, better wages, a more fair income distribution and actual minority rights is more important than a pyhrric victory of purity.
Perhaps you don't want to be like "them", but that's what you're arguing for.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:48 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But black on which side?
The right side of course.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:50 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The right side of course.
Animal! I'd try to reason with you, but I cannot expect people like you to act with self-discipline any more than I can expect a planet to stop orbiting its sun.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:58 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post

Perhaps you don't want to be like "them", but that's what you're arguing for.
No, I'm arguing for better wages, better health care and better education for our children. I'll take a flawed person in power helping society over a perfect person who has no power and little ability to affect change.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:05 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The right side of course.
Audience right or stage right?
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:05 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Animal! I'd try to reason with you, but I cannot expect people like you to act with self-discipline any more than I can expect a planet to stop orbiting its sun.
We will just have to fight it out on Cheron.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:08 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Audience right or stage right?
That would be from the perspective of the character...so probably stage right.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:08 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
We will just have to fight it out on Cheron.
That'll be our last battlefield.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:10 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That'll be our last battlefield.
We really are nerds.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:11 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That'll be our last battlefield.
When you find yourself in times of trouble..
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:13 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
When you find yourself in times of trouble..
The trouble with tribbles.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
We really are nerds.
Nah, Trek's for everyone.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:23 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It was just a silly joke. A black guy (white dude in blackface) having a beer with a Klansman. There's nothing racist in that.

As for other pictures, I don't see any in that article.

This is a molehill, not a mountain.
It was a molehill, but the idiotic way that Northam handled it has made it a mountain.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:24 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It was a molehill, but the idiotic way that Northam handled it has made it a mountain.
Yes.

Either admit it, or deny it, but don't admit it, then deny it.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:56 PM   #397
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Would "it must have been me, because the caption says I was there, but I don't remember which costume I was wearing. I found out in the decades since that neither costume is acceptable. I apologize for being young and stupid." have been the right way of handling it? I don't think any response would satisfy the people calling for his head.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:03 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Would "it must have been me, because the caption says I was there, but I don't remember which costume I was wearing. I found out in the decades since that neither costume is acceptable. I apologize for being young and stupid." have been the right way of handling it? I don't think any response would satisfy the people calling for his head.
This sounds too wishy-washy.

You've either got to own it, or disown it.

I made a mistake, I regret it, evidently I wasn't able to track down every copy of that yearbook...

or

It wasn't me, the students that ran that yearbook thought they were playing a joke on me...
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:04 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Would "it must have been me, because the caption says I was there, but I don't remember which costume I was wearing. I found out in the decades since that neither costume is acceptable. I apologize for being young and stupid." have been the right way of handling it? I don't think any response would satisfy the people calling for his head.
'I was high as a kite and have no memory of doing that' or 'that was a shot from a play we put on about coalminers in Alabama in 1930' would have been better. Or 'I was really stupid back then'.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:07 PM   #400
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"It was just a joke made in bad taste. Get over it."

Yeah, not a great campaign slogan.
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