ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags racism charges , racism incidents , Ralph Northam , Virginia politics

Reply
Old 3rd February 2019, 02:12 PM   #241
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,298
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The difference is voters got to weigh in on Byrd's behaviour.
Byrd was given the chance to evolve.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 02:54 PM   #242
The Shrike
Illuminator
 
The Shrike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,864
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Byrd was given the chance to evolve.
These days we don't have that chance (or at least Democrats don't) and if Northam doesn't get this then he's too detached from reality to hold his office.
The Shrike is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 03:14 PM   #243
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,298
Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
These days we don't have that chance (or at least Democrats don't) and if Northam doesn't get this then he's too detached from reality to hold his office.
I think he understands this. But resigning 3 months after winning the election has to be a bitter pill.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 03:19 PM   #244
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,982
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
it's beyond stupid.
What's beyond stupid is that Democrats disown their candidates at the merest hint of scandal, while Republicans support their candidates up to the hilt no matter how obnoxious the behavior - thus pretty much guaranteeing that Democrats lose, while the obnoxious behavior becomes acceptable if you are a Republican.

You would think that Democrats would have learned by now that nobody is so pure that a scandal can't be stuck to them, and that republicans will find something to smear you with. You would think that after Kavanaugh every Democrat would be pulling out their yearbook and preemptively apologizing for whatever is in it, as well as anything else that could be used against them. But, no they don't give it a thought - then act surprised when it blows up in their face. It's almost like they want to lose...

In a rational world, ignoring serious flaws in your own candidate while calling out the slightest indiscretion (real or imagined) in the opposition would be seen for what it is - blatantly hypocritical. But democrats fall for it every time, because they are beyond stupid.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 03:54 PM   #245
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,298
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
What's beyond stupid is that Democrats disown their candidates at the merest hint of scandal, while Republicans support their candidates up to the hilt no matter how obnoxious the behavior - thus pretty much guaranteeing that Democrats lose, while the obnoxious behavior becomes acceptable if you are a Republican.

You would think that Democrats would have learned by now that nobody is so pure that a scandal can't be stuck to them, and that republicans will find something to smear you with. You would think that after Kavanaugh every Democrat would be pulling out their yearbook and preemptively apologizing for whatever is in it, as well as anything else that could be used against them. But, no they don't give it a thought - then act surprised when it blows up in their face. It's almost like they want to lose...

In a rational world, ignoring serious flaws in your own candidate while calling out the slightest indiscretion (real or imagined) in the opposition would be seen for what it is - blatantly hypocritical. But democrats fall for it every time, because they are beyond stupid.
I think that was totally true with Al Franken. But this is a whole other kettle of fish. Virginia is a diverse state and the African American vote is too damn important. That picture is enough to crush it.

There are things you cannot do in either party. But they differ. If Northam was a Republican, he'd be given the benefit of the doubt by the GOP especially in a Southern State.

This is about political calculation.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 03:57 PM   #246
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,298
And this has got me thinking. How would Virginia handle the Governor stepping down? Would the Lt Governor serve out the remainder of his term or will they hold a Special Election? If it's the latter I definitely don't want him to resign.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 03:57 PM   #247
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,836
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
What's beyond stupid is that Democrats disown their candidates at the merest hint of scandal, while Republicans support their candidates up to the hilt no matter how obnoxious the behavior - thus pretty much guaranteeing that Democrats lose, while the obnoxious behavior becomes acceptable if you are a Republican.

You would think that Democrats would have learned by now that nobody is so pure that a scandal can't be stuck to them, and that republicans will find something to smear you with. You would think that after Kavanaugh every Democrat would be pulling out their yearbook and preemptively apologizing for whatever is in it, as well as anything else that could be used against them. But, no they don't give it a thought - then act surprised when it blows up in their face. It's almost like they want to lose...

In a rational world, ignoring serious flaws in your own candidate while calling out the slightest indiscretion (real or imagined) in the opposition would be seen for what it is - blatantly hypocritical. But democrats fall for it every time, because they are beyond stupid.
Yet again, to go over everything;

1) When the president is an eager white supremacist, and after KKKers, Nazi wannabes, and other such clowns descended on a Virginia town with the express purpose of inflicting violence against black, hispanic, and Jewish people, with a thin excuse of preserving a traitor's statue as cover, the democratic base is not interested in people who have KKK outfits and full on minstrel caricatures in their background (particularly given that these people are doctors, but that's another issue);

2) Northram had years to have gotten in front of this, and failed, and the final straw;

3) Him moonwalking his initial apology, and then saying that there was some other blackface incident in his past where he imitated Michael Jackson (dud, red jacket, one glove. There's your outfit, that's all you need), but is completely unable to explain how the original photo got on his yearbook page;

combined means that this is a crisis of his own making. Had it been the first alone, he *might* have been able to recover. Had he put it out himself and said he was beyond those days, he hoped to prove himself, and so on, that'd be far different. But sorry, the first photo isn't a "hint of scandal", it's highly important to a large number of people. And when Fairfax, who seems far more principled than Northram, is right there ready to take over, why even bother trying to redeem Northram? And that's especially true given that their state legislature is up for vote in November, and the dems are very close to taking over entirely.

Republicans protect their own no matter what? No kidding, and that's exactly why they're widely seen as the party of bigotry, and why we have a bigoted oaf for a president. That's the last thing I want a political party I'm in to be.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 04:06 PM   #248
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,984
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
3) Him moonwalking his initial apology, and then saying that there was some other blackface incident in his past where he imitated Michael Jackson (dud, red jacket, one glove. There's your outfit, that's all you need), but is completely unable to explain how the original photo got on his yearbook page;

combined means that this is a crisis of his own making.
That pretty well sums it up. This might have been survivable - with a real apology, a real admission of the wrongness of the previous action, a real show of contrition.

He did none of that.

Every attempt he has made to improve the situation has made it worse. The black caucus called for him to resign after meeting with him. The press conference was a disaster.

He's toast.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 06:53 PM   #249
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 16,610
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Byrd was given the chance to evolve.
And after he resigns, the voters can assess if he is sufficiently evolved when he runs again.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 08:27 PM   #250
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
That pretty well sums it up. This might have been survivable - with a real apology, a real admission of the wrongness of the previous action, a real show of contrition.
.....
He's claimed that the picture isn't him. If that could credibly be proven to be true (the yearbook editors say pictures frequently got switched around, the guys depicted say "That's me! So what?"), should Northam still quit?

Speaking of those editors, no one seems to be asking who they were and what were they thinking? This wasn't a junior high in 1955; it was a medical school in 1984. How could they think it was alright to publish that picture in any context?

Last edited by Bob001; 3rd February 2019 at 08:28 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 08:33 PM   #251
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,836
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And this has got me thinking. How would Virginia handle the Governor stepping down? Would the Lt Governor serve out the remainder of his term or will they hold a Special Election? If it's the latter I definitely don't want him to resign.
Fairfax would serve the rest of his term should he step down - and while the elected governor can't immediately run for reelection, a lt. governor who assumes the office may be able to, I'm not clear on this.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 08:41 PM   #252
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,298
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Fairfax would serve the rest of his term should he step down - and while the elected governor can't immediately run for reelection, a lt. governor who assumes the office may be able to, I'm not clear on this.
I'm pretty sure anyone can run in the next election even the Governor if he steps down. I do think they have 2 terms maximum in Virginia.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 08:46 PM   #253
Stacko
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,826
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm pretty sure anyone can run in the next election even the Governor if he steps down. I do think they have 2 terms maximum in Virginia.
Virginia governors aren't allowed to serve consecutive terms.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 08:55 PM   #254
Zambo
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 243
The KKK reference would be clear cut at any time, the picture could only be taken to intinidate, offend or incite. But the black face make-up was fairly mainstream at one stage. I looked this up to remind me of the date, this show pre-dates the year book.

"The Black and White Minstrel Show*was a British light entertainment show that ran for twenty years on*BBC*prime-time television. Beginning in 1958, it was a weekly*light entertainment*and*variety show*which presented traditional American*minstrel*and country songs, as well as show tunes and*music hall*numbers, and with lavish costumes.The show was accused of*racism*and ethnic stereotyping by black*civil rights*groups in the UK, such as the*Campaign Against Racial Discrimination, due to its use of*blackface. This racial controversy led to the programme's eventual cancellation from television in 1978"

This was the UK, perhaps in the US this was recognised to be unacceptable even earlier.
Zambo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 09:03 PM   #255
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 29,964
Why doesn't he just change his party to Republican? Because then he'll have an entire party and president defending him.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 09:14 PM   #256
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,469
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So you would think the Governor could move past this. But there seems no chance of that now.
It will be interesting to see how it ends up. He seems to be trying to tough it out. Is there a recall process in VA? Impeachment?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 09:49 PM   #257
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,331
Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
The KKK reference would be clear cut at any time, the picture could only be taken to intinidate, offend or incite. But the black face make-up was fairly mainstream at one stage. I looked this up to remind me of the date, this show pre-dates the year book.

"The Black and White Minstrel Show*was a British light entertainment show that ran for twenty years on*BBC*prime-time television. Beginning in 1958, it was a weekly*light entertainment*and*variety show*which presented traditional American*minstrel*and country songs, as well as show tunes and*music hall*numbers, and with lavish costumes.The show was accused of*racism*and ethnic stereotyping by black*civil rights*groups in the UK, such as the*Campaign Against Racial Discrimination, due to its use of*blackface. This racial controversy led to the programme's eventual cancellation from television in 1978"

This was the UK, perhaps in the US this was recognised to be unacceptable even earlier.
Was Al Jolson ever taken to task over his blackface costume?

__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!

Last edited by smartcooky; 3rd February 2019 at 09:53 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 09:54 PM   #258
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 40,341
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The word 'coon' was a racial slur directed at people of African descent. I heard it a lot when I was young. Not sure what they meant by 'coonman'.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, I get what coon means, of course. But coupled with 'man' leaves me scratching my head. Usually it means something you really like, as in being a 'leg man' or whatever.

Eta: I keep thinking it is a play on 'Spoon man', but it is too early I think
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Could be. I was thinking something similar. We would have said he had jungle fever.

But it might have a specific meaning to just a small group of friends. I really have no idea. It could mean just about anything. But it could easily have resulted from wearing the blackface.

Given where he was from and the time, he could have been balancing his cultural upbringing which would have included vestiges of the racist past and a serious attempt to move past that. Bigotry and racism doesn't just end with a hard demarcation. There is an evolution of individuals and society.
Even in the '80s, "coon" was a pretty old worn out pejorative. I keep looking for some other possible explanation but damned if I can come up with one. In retrospect, if he had more than one incident of playing a character (real or imagined) in blackface, maybe that was his thing. And the couple of people who called him that were referencing his fondness for playing dress-up?
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2019, 11:50 PM   #259
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 40,341
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not much. To be sure, there were objections to blackface and minstrelsy by educated blacks dating back to Frederick Douglass (the guy who Trump thinks has done pretty good), but the objections were of the material, which portrayed caricatures and what were to become horrid stereotypes.

The use of blackface in variety show type performances became such a mainstay that when troupes of actual BLACK performers were put together, they wore the blackface, too. It was, as I understand it, to avoid confusing the white audience who didn't want to deal with fifty shades of black. But it became such a mainstay that black comedians into the 30s and 40s said they knew they could perform without it but felt naked without it. At one point, Ziegfeld's highest paid performer was a black man doing blackface.

Further, Jolson's portrayal is still one of the accepted representations of blackface in film and TV; a reproduction of a performance where someone makes up in blackface. It happens to be a reproduction of his own variety show act, but blackface was so common up to then, that there were very few objections, with the black press actually giving the film a positive review.

Ironically, though, it was the reaction to blackface in Birth of a Nation that marked the end of whites portraying blacks in movies*. I think it had more to do with the fact that the film was objectionable as a whole, so the practice drew more attention than it might have in fifty other films made that year.

In hindsight, Jolson later got criticism but of the generic sort... white people shouldn't be donning burnt cork to portray blacks.... period. Some of this came from resurgent black pride, but a lot of it came from Actors Equity sorts who wanted black actors even in supporting or extra roles for reasons of equal employment opportunities.

*That's not to say "blackface". Blackface routines showed up in a lot of movies by some fairly prominent stars. But they were known whiteys doing the bit as a show within a show, generally, e.g. being shown doing a variety or Vaudeville performance in a period like Jolson doing the Jazz Singer. What I'm referring to is the practice of making up white actors as blacks simply as part of a scene. Check out any of the Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan films. The natives in the films are either suspiciously beige or obviously whites corked over. This practice continued for background and extra roles (and some starring) for Native American, LatinX, Asian and Middle Eastern roles for decades.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 03:45 AM   #260
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Even in the '80s, "coon" was a pretty old worn out pejorative. I keep looking for some other possible explanation but damned if I can come up with one. In retrospect, if he had more than one incident of playing a character (real or imagined) in blackface, maybe that was his thing. And the couple of people who called him that were referencing his fondness for playing dress-up?
"Coon" can also be short for "raccoon". I don't know if he's from anywhere where that's the case, though, nor whether he's a hunter or something else innocent that could have earned him the nickname. The fact that he claims not to know why he was called that suggests to me that it's not something innocent.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 03:55 AM   #261
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets;12588269You would think that Democrats would have learned by now that [I
nobody[/i] is so pure that a scandal can't be stuck to them, and that republicans will find something to smear you with.
They've been trying really hard to do this with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. So far they have:
  • She went to high school
  • She wore clothes when she moved to Washington
  • Her mother owns a house
  • She used a diminutive of her name in high school and college
  • She can dance

Perhaps there is more to come out, but your statement is rather hyperbolic. It seems that the easiest way to not be smeared by the Republicans is not to have things in your past they can smear you with. Just act like a normal, decent human being and you'll probably be okay.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 04:48 AM   #262
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,766
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
... It seems that the easiest way to not be smeared by the Republicans is not to have things in your past they can smear you with. Just act like a normal, decent human being and you'll probably be okay.
This is rather naive, e.g. John Kerry, Barack Obama.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 06:12 AM   #263
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,812
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
In a rational world, ignoring serious flaws in your own candidate while calling out the slightest indiscretion (real or imagined) in the opposition would be seen for what it is - blatantly hypocritical. But democrats fall for it every time, because they are beyond stupid.
There was a big election a few months ago. You should look it up. The results may surprise you.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 06:26 AM   #264
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This is rather naive, e.g. John Kerry, Barack Obama.
Well, of course there's nothing to stop people making **** up. Ocasio-Cortez has had that too (remember the "nude selfie"?).

Roger's argument was that everybody had actually done something that they could be smeared with, therefore Democrats should stand by people like Northam when something like this comes out rather than saying "that's not okay". I'm pointing out that it doesn't appear that everybody has a secret past of blackface and so even if "politicians should be more tribal and care less about their personal moral values" were a decent argument, then the premise on which its based is still false.

Again, the above is the caveat that perhaps Ocasio-Cortez really is a secret Nazi/rapist/kitten-murderer and she's just been better at hiding it than the Republicans are.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 06:38 AM   #265
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,370
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Mmm, I love me some Rule of So!
Except that it's exactly what you did. The two are not comparable so there's no reason to bring Kavanaugh up.

Again you have no idea what the rule of so is.

Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
He's got to go.
Everybody who has ever made a joke or done something that could hypothetically insult someone, somewhere, especially according to someone else, has got to go.

Or, perhaps we could stop being so offended all the time.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And you don't think people can change over 30 years? His record on race since does not matter?
excuse me but that seems to me pretty damned close minded and arbritary.
The standard is set up so that no one passes. It helps with the constant outrage.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Bit of an a-hole" = frickin blackface?!
Yeah it would more accurately be equated with murder, no?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 06:45 AM   #266
Stacko
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,826
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Everybody who has ever made a joke or done something that could hypothetically insult someone, somewhere, especially according to someone else, has got to go.

Or, perhaps we could stop being so offended all the time.
He was an adult in med school in 1984. It was ******* blackface not an off-color joke. Blackface has been offensive and insulting for a long ass time; not just recently because white men deigned to realize it. His behavior since this came to light has made it even clearer he should resign or be removed from office.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 07:23 AM   #267
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,370
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I never thought Franken should have resigned. In fact, I still don't. He was a damn fine Senator. I don't think there are PERFECT people. Every one makes mistakes. This purity that people are seeking is an illusion.
Exactly.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
...after having apologised for being in the photo...
Odd.

Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
He was an adult in med school in 1984. It was ******* blackface not an off-color joke. Blackface has been offensive and insulting for a long ass time; not just recently because white men deigned to realize it. His behavior since this came to light has made it even clearer he should resign or be removed from office.
Oh no! He did something really offensive at some point of his life! I guess we ship him off to Australia, then.

Here's the ugly truth: especially in these days where everything you say and do is recorded, if we throw out everybody who said or did something that someone could consider offensive, no one would be left. Hell, some of the best humour is terribly offensive. What do we do with comedians?

His behaviour since, however, is a different matter. He should've owned it and/or apologised and moved on.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 07:35 AM   #268
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 5,574
I find this whole brouhaha just boring.
__________________
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that...I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. - President Donald J. Trump, January 20, 2017.
"And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:00 AM   #269
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,298
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh no! He did something really offensive at some point of his life! I guess we ship him off to Australia, then.

Here's the ugly truth: especially in these days where everything you say and do is recorded, if we throw out everybody who said or did something that someone could consider offensive, no one would be left. Hell, some of the best humour is terribly offensive. What do we do with comedians?

His behaviour since, however, is a different matter. He should've owned it and/or apologised and moved on.
I am personally having a problem with all this. I can't get past that this was 35 years ago. I don't care he was an adult then. It was still 35 #$%#ing years ago! It's not like he killed or raped someone and got away with it. He wore a stupid racist costume...a long long long very long time ago.

We have a President who actively discriminated against people of color in his rental practices. He launched his political career promoting the racist idea that Obama wasn't a legitimate President. So Republicans SHUT THE HELL UP. You have no moral standing in regards to the Governor.

My ONLY issue is how this affects the electorate in Virginia. If it makes it too hard to govern effectively and makes an important constituency too resentful then he should step down.

But I still think it is ridiculous.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:03 AM   #270
SuburbanTurkey
Graduate Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 1,529
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I am personally having a problem with all this. I can't get past that this was 35 years ago. I don't care he was an adult then. It was still 35 #$%#ing years ago! It's not like he killed or raped someone and got away with it. He wore a stupid racist costume...a long long long very long time ago.

We have a President who actively discriminated against people of color in his rental practices. He launched his political career promoting the racist idea that Obama wasn't a legitimate President. So Republicans SHUT THE HELL UP. You have no moral standing in regards to the Governor.

My ONLY issue is how this affects the electorate in Virginia. If it makes it too hard to govern effectively and makes an important constituency too resentful then he should step down.

But I still think it is ridiculous.
I think it helps for the D's to show some pretty high standards for this kind of racist crap. Comparing them to the republicans is pointless. We all already know they are the party of conspiracy theories and racism. The Republican party is on the verge of becoming the explicit white-minority political party, with people like King easing his toes into the water.

D's policing their own is a good thing, it shows that ideas still matter. Even in the 80's the KKK and blackface were extremely bad taste costume ideas. Does that make the governor an unredeemable racist today? Maybe not. I think we can do better though.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 4th February 2019 at 08:05 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:17 AM   #271
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,014
With the number of other black face pictures in the year book, to what extent do we know the year book staff made sure that those pictures were on the pages of the indivuals in them?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:19 AM   #272
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,298
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think it helps for the D's to show some pretty high standards for this kind of racist crap. Comparing them to the republicans is pointless. We all already know they are the party of conspiracy theories and racism. The Republican party is on the verge of becoming the explicit white-minority political party, with people like King easing his toes into the water.

D's policing their own is a good thing, it shows that ideas still matter. Even in the 80's the KKK and blackface were extremely bad taste costume ideas. Does that make the governor an unredeemable racist today? Maybe not. I think we can do better though.
Can we though? Do you really believe there are competent people who never made mistakes in their youth? Shouldn't there be a statute of limitations? Isn't the body of work since far more important?
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:20 AM   #273
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,370
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Can we though? Do you really believe there are competent people who never made mistakes in their youth? Shouldn't there be a statute of limitations? Isn't the body of work since far more important?
I have the nagging impression that the people most likely to lash out and demand the resignation or public shaming of anyone who's ever done anything bad or wrong in their lives are the people most likely to have done nothing with theirs.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:20 AM   #274
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I find this whole brouhaha just boring.
And yet here you are, in a thread dedicated to it, taking the time out to post a reply.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:22 AM   #275
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Can we though? Do you really believe there are competent people who never made mistakes in their youth?
There are mistakes and there are mistakes.

Quote:
Isn't the body of work since far more important?
Bear in mind, as you say this, that his reaction to this becoming public is part of his "body of work since".
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:23 AM   #276
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,370
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And yet here you are, in a thread dedicated to it, taking the time out to post a reply.
Which, of course, absolutely doesn't contradict what he said.

Finding something boring doesn't make it likely that one won't comment about it being boring.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:25 AM   #277
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,653
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
"Coon" can also be short for "raccoon". I don't know if he's from anywhere where that's the case, though, nor whether he's a hunter or something else innocent that could have earned him the nickname. The fact that he claims not to know why he was called that suggests to me that it's not something innocent.
I knew someone who lived on Kumquat Street in Coon Rapids. He had a hard time convincing the car rental agent that was true.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:29 AM   #278
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,298
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
There are mistakes and there are mistakes.

Bear in mind, as you say this, that his reaction to this becoming public is part of his "body of work since".
Understand, I'm not arguing either way about his future as Governor. Although I AM giving him a pass on the picture. I just believe it's ridiculous to hold him accountable for stupidity, not criminality 35 years post.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:31 AM   #279
SuburbanTurkey
Graduate Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 1,529
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Can we though? Do you really believe there are competent people who never made mistakes in their youth? Shouldn't there be a statute of limitations? Isn't the body of work since far more important?
The guy was in medical school, not some dumb kid in high school.

Sucks that his elite medical school appears to have had a culture of racist, poor taste jokes. These elite institutions should have taken more care to protect their reputation.

I think the public is learning to look at these allegedly elite institutions with a bit more critical eye, which is good. Kavanaugh's hearing showed that these "future leader" factories are rife with boorish, entitled a-holes who have learned to do whatever they like with no consequences. While some of that can be accredited to youthful indiscretion, it seems that very little was done to curb this behavior.

The more the public sees behind closed doors of these institutions of the rich and powerful, the more it is disgusted. Good riddance to all these garbage people.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 4th February 2019 at 08:40 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2019, 08:41 AM   #280
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,491
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The guy was in medical school, not some dumb kid in high school.

Sucks that his elite medical school appears to have had a culture of racist, poor taste jokes. These elite institutions should have taken more care to protect their reputation.
Yeah, graduating at what, 25 years old, assuming he went straight through from high school? And the pic would have been taken before graduation. We're still talking about early twenties. Maturity still in development for a lot of people that age.

People can change, too. If he was the Grand Dragon of his schools Klan outpost, I would give it a pass without a second thought, if his track record since then showed that he has had an obvious change of heart.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.