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Tags racism charges , racism incidents , Ralph Northam , Virginia politics

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Old 4th February 2019, 08:42 AM   #281
crescent
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Can we though? Do you really believe there are competent people who never made mistakes in their youth? Shouldn't there be a statute of limitations? Isn't the body of work since far more important?
For me, it is less about what he did in the past, as it is about how he handled the revelation of his past activities.

I mean, he admitted it was himself in the photo and apologized twice. Then he retracted that apology and denied it was him in the photo after all - but implied it was an easy mistake to make, given that he had actually appeared in blackface during medical school.

I am bothered by the fact that this all happened when he was well into adulthood - this was not exactly a high school yearbook. And then his attempt to handle it appears to have been very slapdash - did he not see the photo before he admitted to it and apologized twice? This suggests to me that he just didn't see all that much wrong with it, or that he assumed it was him because.... Why, when accused of appearing in black face or a Klan suit, would a person just assume "Yep, that sounds like what I would have done!" unless that person had a real history of actually doing that?

It is his inconsistent and apparently rushed and ill-thought out responses that get to me the most. He needs to be rebuilding trust, and he isn't.He's acting like just another politician.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:43 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The guy was in medical school, not some dumb kid in high school.

Sucks that his elite medical school appears to have had a culture of racist, poor taste jokes.
Does it? What did the school do?
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:44 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The guy was in medical school, not some dumb kid in high school.

Sucks that his elite medical school appears to have had a culture of racist, poor taste jokes. These elite institutions should have taken more care to protect their reputation.
And it still was 35 ******* YEARS ago! And yes it sucks. But I do think that counts in the Governor's favor. It seems as if it was part of the social environment he was living in.

I never heard more than this guy's name 2 weeks ago. I don't know about 'his body of work'
So it's unfair for me to judge him on that. I certainly don't like the way he has responded to this. IMV, IF Virginia Democrats want him to resign he should. But let's not cut off our noses to spite our faces.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:47 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And it still was 35 ******* YEARS ago! And yes it sucks. But I do think that counts in the Governor's favor. It seems as if it was part of the social environment he was living in.

I never heard more than this guy's name 2 weeks ago. I don't know about 'his body of work'
So it's unfair for me to judge him on that. I certainly don't like the way he has responded to this. IMV, IF Virginia Democrats want him to resign he should. But let's not cut off our noses to spite our faces.
You should be ashamed to have an avatar of a man who argued for eugenics. That's Nazi stuff! I hope you never run for office!
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:51 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Does it? What did the school do?
A school is partially composed of its student body and much care is usually taken to ensure that student body reflects well on the institution.

There are multiple blackface and otherwise gross pictures in the yearbook for that year. This does not reflect well on that institution.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/03/polit...ook/index.html
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:56 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A school is partially composed of its student body and much care is usually taken to ensure that student body reflects well on the institution.

There are multiple blackface and otherwise gross pictures in the yearbook for that year. This does not reflect well on that institution.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/03/polit...ook/index.html
It was just a silly joke. A black guy (white dude in blackface) having a beer with a Klansman. There's nothing racist in that.

As for other pictures, I don't see any in that article.

This is a molehill, not a mountain.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:57 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It was just a silly joke. A black guy (white dude in blackface) having a beer with a Klansman. There's nothing racist in that.
Unless it's an actual Klansman, of course...
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:02 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You should be ashamed to have an avatar of a man who argued for eugenics. That's Nazi stuff! I hope you never run for office!
By the time Tesla was saying those kinds of things he'd gone off his rocker. He was also at that time in love with a pigeon. Still, one of the greatest inventors that ever lived.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:05 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
By the time Tesla was saying those kinds of things he'd gone off his rocker. He was also at that time in love with a pigeon. Still, one of the greatest inventors that ever lived.
YOU'RE JUST LIKE A NAZI!!!! RESIGN!!!
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:05 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It was just a silly joke. A black guy (white dude in blackface) having a beer with a Klansman. There's nothing racist in that.

As for other pictures, I don't see any in that article.

This is a molehill, not a mountain.
Sure, we don't have to burn him at the stake. Just maybe he doesn't get to be the head of the state government. Standards ought to be high to serve in an important public office.

Let him retire to private life and put all this behind him.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:08 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, we don't have to burn him at the stake. Just maybe he doesn't get to be the head of the state government. Standards ought to be high to serve in an important public office.

Let him retire to private life and put all this behind him.
Sure, don't burn him at the stake; just ostracise him forever. Mistakes are disallowed.

I just can't get outraged by this. It's a non-story for me, except the reaction.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:13 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Understand, I'm not arguing either way about his future as Governor. Although I AM giving him a pass on the picture. I just believe it's ridiculous to hold him accountable for stupidity, not criminality 35 years post.
I don't think the line should be whether or not something is criminal, but whether or not it's right. And the question should be whether or not he's learned and changed in the mean time. The answer appears to be "no".
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:14 AM   #293
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Of course AC360 ran his press conference with the chyron (R-VA) next to his name.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...yearbook-photo
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:25 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, we don't have to burn him at the stake. Just maybe he doesn't get to be the head of the state government. Standards ought to be high to serve in an important public office.

Let him retire to private life and put all this behind him.
But he was elected only months ago.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:30 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But he was elected only months ago.
Probably wouldn't have won had he been honest about his youthful indiscretions. The time to roll out the "I've learned the error of my ways" is before smoking gun evidence is made public, not after.

The context of the day is that voters seem to really care about personal character in their politicians (well, at least democrats). The republicans and Trump have shown the danger that those with poor character can do. Whether it's fair or not is besides the question, liberal voters are trending towards low tolerance for racists, joking or sincere. It's their prerogative to assess worthiness for office however they see fit, and this guy doesn't make the grade. No one has the right to be governor.

This guy shouldn't have run and he shouldn't have hid his shameful past. I doubt he would have cleared the primary with what we know now. We have to deal with this after the fact because he managed to keep it hidden until after the election. He has done his voters a grave disservice.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:35 AM   #296
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Possibly relevant to this thread:

The Lt. Governor who would take over if Northam has just been accused of sexual assault. The accusations first appeared on the same site that broke hte yearbook photo.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/vir...olitical-storm
Quote:
The allegation was first posted by Big League Politics, the same political blog that published the now-infamous yearbook photo showing someone in blackface and someone in a KKK costume, from Northam's 1984 yearbook page. Despite initially apologizing for appearing in the photo, he now denies either of the individuals is him.

The blog, in the post that prompted Fairfax's denial, claimed that a fellow at Stanford University said a man sexually assaulted her at the 2004 Democratic National Convention in Boston, Mass.
But in his denial, Fairfax explained that the accuser “first approached the Washington Post” over a year ago, prior to his inauguration in 2018.
Quote:

But in his denial, Fairfax explained that the accuser “first approached the Washington Post” over a year ago, prior to his inauguration in 2018.
“The Post carefully investigated the claim for several months,” Fairfax’s office said in a statement. “After being presented with facts consistent with the Lt. Governor’s denial of the allegation, the absence of any evidence corroborating the allegation, and significant red flags and inconsistencies within the allegation, the Post made the considered decision not to publish the story.”

Fairfax’s office added: “Tellingly, not one other reputable media outlet has seen fit to air this false claim. Only now, at a time of intense media attention surrounding Virginia politics, has this false claim been raised again.”
This development will be quite interesting.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:37 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Of course AC360 ran his press conference with the chyron (R-VA) next to his name.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...yearbook-photo
I'm sure Northam wishes he were.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:42 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Probably wouldn't have won had he been honest about his youthful indiscretions. The time to roll out the "I've learned the error of my ways" is before smoking gun evidence is made public, not after.

The context of the day is that voters seem to really care about personal character in their politicians (well, at least democrats). The republicans and Trump have shown the danger that those with poor character can do. Whether it's fair or not is besides the question, liberal voters are trending towards low tolerance for racists, joking or sincere. It's their prerogative to assess worthiness for office however they see fit, and this guy doesn't make the grade.

This guy shouldn't have run and he shouldn't have hid his shameful past. I doubt he would have cleared the primary with what we know now. We have to deal with this after the fact because he managed to keep it hidden until after the election. He has done his voters a grave disservice.
Bull. I don't I agree with any of that. Do you really think he even thought about this picture taken 35 years ago and should have announced to the world it's existence? Get serious. And do you really believe that you have the same character at 60 that you had when you were 25?

If this picture was taken 5, 10, 15 maybe even 20 years ago your argument might have merit. But not 35 years post.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:56 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But he was elected only months ago.


15 months is technically "months" ... but he was elected in 2017.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:56 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Probably wouldn't have won had he been honest about his youthful indiscretions. The time to roll out the "I've learned the error of my ways" is before smoking gun evidence is made public, not after.
You're expecting people to reveal the things that could hurt their campaign during their own campaign?
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:57 AM   #301
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“Northam’s actions amount to cruel mockery of the very people who made his governorship possible.”

Quote:
Last Friday, Northam was forced to admit that he had worn blackface. After conservative media outlets published a photograph from Northam’s medical-school yearbook of two individuals, one in blackface and another in a Ku Klux Klan outfit, the governor apologized and acknowledged that, on a separate occasion, he had worn blackface in order to dress up as Michael Jackson for Halloween. He maintains that he cannot recall if he is either man in the yearbook photo.

For many black Americans, Northam’s admissions evoke a particular horror: the long-standing legacy of racism in the medical profession, in which black patients were either exploited for scientific advancement or denied treatment based on widespread biological fallacies about differences between people of African or European descent. Blackface entertainment reassured white Americans that black people were simple creatures who benefited most from subservience to whites; it has survived into the modern era as a way to question black humanity under the guise of humor.

A teenage transgression might have been more forgivable, but by 1984, Northam was a medical professional, a physician, someone sworn to do no harm. Northam’s actions amount to cruel mockery of the very people who made his governorship possible. They also illustrate the difficult choices black voters are so often forced to make: between those who disdain black people publicly and those who may do so privately but are beholden to them for power.



Nevertheless, neither the fact of Trump’s presidency nor Gillespie’s racist appeals excuse Northam’s behavior, just as his behavior does not exonerate Gillespie or Trump. If Northam remains governor, he gives license to any number of future scoundrels to remain in office despite engaging in bigotry against their constituents. There is more at risk here than Northam’s political career.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:57 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Of course AC360 ran his press conference with the chyron (R-VA) next to his name.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...yearbook-photo
The incorrect party label appears for less than 15 seconds over the apology video Northam posted to Twitter. Host Anderson Cooper had previously correctly identified Northam as a Democrat while introducing the clip of Northam's apology, which had been posted to Twitter on Friday night.

But yeah, "of course"
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:58 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post


15 months is technically "months" ... but he was elected in 2017.
I thought he was elected this last November. I stand corrected.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:01 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Possibly relevant to this thread:

The Lt. Governor who would take over if Northam has just been accused of sexual assault. The accusations first appeared on the same site that broke hte yearbook photo.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/vir...olitical-storm
But in his denial, Fairfax explained that the accuser “first approached the Washington Post” over a year ago, prior to his inauguration in 2018.


This development will be quite interesting.
It's probably worth pointing out that Big League Politics was founded by people who left Breitbart and the Daily Caller because those outlets were too liberal.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:19 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Bull. I don't I agree with any of that. Do you really think he even thought about this picture taken 35 years ago and should have announced to the world it's existence? Get serious. And do you really believe that you have the same character at 60 that you had when you were 25?

If this picture was taken 5, 10, 15 maybe even 20 years ago your argument might have merit. But not 35 years post.
This isn't just any youthful indiscretion. The country is having a bit of a come-to-jesus moment around the issues of multi-generational institutional racism, including racism in the most elite, prestigious institutions. Democrats are trying to position themselves as the party opposed to this racism.

A young, privileged white guy engaging in racist jokes with a bunch of other elite white guys is a pretty significant undercutting of that position. He's the wrong man for the current moment.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're expecting people to reveal the things that could hurt their campaign during their own campaign?
No, but it's in the interests of the political parties to conduct this kind of research on potential candidates early, when there's a chance that someone else can move forward as the nominee. The adversarial system of the primaries and the later general election provides incentive for this to be done.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:21 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
No, but it's in the interests of the political parties to conduct this kind of research on potential candidates early. The adversarial system of the primaries and the later general election provides incentive for this to be done.
The thing is, how do you know what will come out and what will have a "meh" effect and what will have actual impact? Sure, had I seen this, knowing how sensitive people have become, I could have expected a reaction, but geez.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:26 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This isn't just any youthful indiscretion. The country is having a bit of a come-to-jesus moment around the issues of multi-generational institutional racism, including racism in the most elite, prestigious institutions. Democrats are trying to position themselves as the party opposed to this racism.

A young, privileged white guy engaging in racist jokes with a bunch of other elite white guys is a pretty significant undercutting of that position. He's the wrong man for the current moment.
Hey, decide for yourself. But IMV, 35 years is way beyond a reasonable statute of limitations. I'm going to judge a man by his entire history, not just a momentary stupidity in college.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:49 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Hey, decide for yourself. But IMV, 35 years is way beyond a reasonable statute of limitations. I'm going to judge a man by his entire history, not just a momentary stupidity in college.
Fair enough. I personally am a bit unsure what the best recourse is in these situations. I personally found the drumming-out of Franken to be an overreaction, but would support resignation in this case. I don't know how one should parse these kinds of things, but it needs to be done somehow.

I think the nation is in a crisis of character right now. It is certainly possible that the left is overreacting to the open amorality of the right wing, but what are you going to do? With people like King and Trump on the right, it's no surprise that the D's are very sensitive to failures of character in their own camp. Hopefully it is more productive than self sabotaging and brings good candidates to the front of the pack.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:38 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's probably worth pointing out that Big League Politics was founded by people who left Breitbart and the Daily Caller because those outlets were too liberal.
Huh, walk us through that, because none of those organizations existed when he was in medical school and therefore it seems very fallacious.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:48 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Fair enough. I personally am a bit unsure what the best recourse is in these situations. I personally found the drumming-out of Franken to be an overreaction, but would support resignation in this case. I don't know how one should parse these kinds of things, but it needs to be done somehow.

I think the nation is in a crisis of character right now. It is certainly possible that the left is overreacting to the open amorality of the right wing, but what are you going to do? With people like King and Trump on the right, it's no surprise that the D's are very sensitive to failures of character in their own camp. Hopefully it is more productive than self sabotaging and brings good candidates to the front of the pack.
I don't have a fully formed opinion on the Governor.

But I do think this particular incident in of itself is being blown way out of proportion. And some level of proportionality is always important. The idea of a need for people to have perfect is absurd. I also think it makes liberals look stupid. There has to be a happy medium between not caring at all if the person is on your side and axe them if they made a tmistake.

Yesterday I read about some academic saying that Mary Poppins was racist because of the scene with the chimney soot cover faces.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:51 AM   #311
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In an era where masks of famous people was still a commonly available costume component, is it really so shocking that he would dress up as a person famous in his era and have to darken his skin to match the person he was impersonating? He only needed wait though, Jackson by the time I started seeing pictures of him looked more like a white woman. People still dress up as famous people. Drag men dress up as women. People dress up as monsters, people dress up in 'sexy' uniforms. Given the time frame, if he was racist, he'd have followed the other bigots in the Southern Strategy to end up Republican and the same people bitching now would have protected him whole-heartedly.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:05 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Of course AC360 ran his press conference with the chyron (R-VA) next to his name.
It was certainly my first instinct that he was an (R). I've seen enough errors on CNN's chyrons (grammatical and otherwise), to believe it was just another intern that messed up. The errors are usually corrected within several seconds.

My favorite one was the omission of one letter from "country".
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:06 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Huh, walk us through that, because none of those organizations existed when he was in medical school and therefore it seems very fallacious.
So, that was last month's word, but you still don't understand it? When those organizations metastasized has nothing to do with what SB said.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:07 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
We don't often agree, baron, but when we do... don't you feel uneasy about that?

Anyway, I'm usually on the "pfft. Stop taking offense, people" camp. I think we should encourage each other to have thicker skin, rather than what we're doing now, which is the exact opposite.

Now, to be fair, he should've known better even back then, but I don't consider this event egregious enough to be worked up about it, and it shows the current state of affairs that we're having this conversation. I suppose human societies always have some sort of issue that triggers them, no matter the era. Back in the day, no one would've cared about blackface, but then they'd get all worked up about a bunch of things we consider innocuous today. Oddly enough, the picture was not taken back in those days.
Um...no, I can assure you that many people would have had a very negative reaction to blackface in 1984, particularly in the context of a full-on minstrel outfit next to a klansman. And given the health care disparities that persist to this day, well, this photo would be (and is now) seen as evidence of conscious and willful racism among at least some doctors leading them to harm black patients.

ETA: keep in mind this is a mere 12 years after the Tuskeegee Experiment came to light, suspicion of medical workers was running high among black people.

The key difference is that there would be far more white people outraged at the suggestion that the people in the photo might be racist. Nowadays, democrats tend to take that sort of feedback somewhat better, and to think about it instead of just howling with outrage at the idea that the photo suggests racism. As for republicans, they seem to be completely unable to abide by the suggestion that a guy that ran Jesse Helms' appallingly bigoted campaigns might, himself, be a racist. This is why so many of them are writing editorials when black GOP senator Tim Scott says "Hey, guys, did you ever think that this is why black people would rather catch the clap than vote for us?".

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Old 4th February 2019, 12:10 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Um...no, I can assure you that many people would have had a very negative reaction to blackface in 1984
I said back in the day, not back in Northam's day. I was thinking further back than that, when it _was_ acceptable, but other things we take for granted now were not. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:10 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And yet here you are, in a thread dedicated to it, taking the time out to post a reply.
Yep. I tend to look at car wrecks as well.

But I find collusion with Russia and other misdeeds of the administration far more interesting. I only checked out this thread to give my opinion that I think it’s a tempest in a teapot.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:28 PM   #317
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Anyone mad at the school for publishing the photos?
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:33 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
So, that was last month's word, but you still don't understand it? When those organizations metastasized has nothing to do with what SB said.
You sure about that? I mean really sure?

I betcha you could ferret out what was fallacious about the post to which I was replying to.

here is another hint: attacking the messenger.

I'd love to see someone who claims to know something about fallacies to take a deep dive into that post.

Regale me with your expertise.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:34 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Anyone mad at the school for publishing the photos?
I'm mad at pretty much everyone involved except the kids. The media, the Bishop, the school...they all sucked moose **** .
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:10 PM   #320
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Megyn Kelly fired within 48 hours of saying this:

“What is racist? You do get in trouble if you are a white person who puts on blackface for Halloween or a black person who puts on whiteface for Halloween. Like back when I was a kid it was okay if you were dressing up as a character.”

Jimmy Kimmel, Sarah Silvermen and Jimmy Fallon still doing just fine, after ACTUALLY donning blackface as recently as 2007 and 2017

This double standard is confusing.

So the governor of Virginia is going to stay on board? How do the outrage experts justify this?
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