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Old Yesterday, 10:27 AM   #3281
Wildy
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Interesting how it seems all the criminals end up in the UK. It's like they're the Australia of Europe.
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Old Yesterday, 10:27 AM   #3282
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
That probably still doesn't conjure a customs border from Londonderry to Armagh out of the mist.
It would be interesting to see a no deal brexit and no one enforcing its outcomes.

It is clear that no one will be ready for anything to actually happen when time runs out.
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Old Yesterday, 11:06 AM   #3283
Lothian
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
EU requests: 14279
UK requests: 241

So which side loses out most by the EU's refusal to cooperate after Brexit?
The countries lose out and the criminals win.

It is not the EU that is refusing to cooperate. There is a cooperation agreement and the UK has signaled its intention to withdraw from it.

Typical brexiteer behaviour to blame the EU when the consequences of the UK's decision to walk away from an agreement is to whine that the benefits of the agreement are no longer there.

Last edited by Lothian; Yesterday at 11:29 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 11:41 AM   #3284
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
EU requests: 14279
UK requests: 241

So which side loses out most by the EU's refusal to cooperate after Brexit?
Son we get to keep just over fourteen thousand criminals that we would otherwise have extradited? I'd say we lose pretty heavily.
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #3285
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Son we get to keep just over fourteen thousand criminals that we would otherwise have extradited? I'd say we lose pretty heavily.
Clearly keeping foreign criminals is an important part of brexit strategy.
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Old Yesterday, 11:56 AM   #3286
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly keeping foreign criminals is an important part of brexit strategy.
Maybe they're British criminals who committed their crimes in mainland Europe patriots giving Johnnie Foreigner a good kick in the pants on his home ground.
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Old Yesterday, 12:09 PM   #3287
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Another predictable consequence of Brexit:

:
Alternative analysis of Barnier's presentation:
https://twitter.com/StevePeers/statu...07115974823936


Quote:
Overall unimpressive. Fails to consider UK contribution of data, return of fugitives, etc. Lip service to security concerns, but mostly concerned about ideological constructs. Misstates law & overlooks EU precedent with non-EU countries in this field. If student essay: low 2:2
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Old Yesterday, 12:19 PM   #3288
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Interesting how it seems all the criminals end up in the UK. It's like they're the Australia of Europe.
Do you still wonder why we voted to stop free movement from the EU to the UK?
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Old Yesterday, 12:37 PM   #3289
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Alternative analysis of Barnier's presentation:
https://twitter.com/StevePeers/statu...07115974823936
But doesn't consider the fact that it's the UK that wants to leave all those institutional that make the EAW possible. As an alternative aanalysis it fails miserably.

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Old Yesterday, 01:00 PM   #3290
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
EU requests: 14279
UK requests: 241

So which side loses out most by the EU's refusal to cooperate after Brexit?
Also from the NCA:

Quote:
Requests: The number of requests received by the UK does not represent the number of wanted people in the UK. Some member states issue requests to numerous member states when they do not know where a subject may be. A large proportion of the requests received by the UK will be for people who are not, and never have been, in the UK. Similarly it would be inaccurate to calculate the number of wanted people in Europe by adding together the total number of requests for every member state. To do this would count the same individuals many times over.
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Old Yesterday, 01:21 PM   #3291
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Do you still wonder why we voted to stop free movement from the EU to the UK?
Do you still think we can stop free movement when we insist there will be no border between us and the EU?
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Old Yesterday, 01:49 PM   #3292
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
EU requests: 14279
UK requests: 241

So which side loses out most by the EU's refusal to cooperate after Brexit?
You think having thousands of un-extradicted potential criminals in the country is a "good" things?

Last edited by Information Analyst; Yesterday at 01:50 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 02:47 PM   #3293
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So the UK becomes a safe haven for European criminals?

Lovely.
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Old Yesterday, 03:09 PM   #3294
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Do you still think we can stop free movement when we insist there will be no border between us and the EU?
It's impossible to totally prevent illegal immigrants, but after we've left the EU and such immigration can be made illegal then at least we can hope to catch and and repatriate or punish at least some of the criminals.
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Old Yesterday, 03:25 PM   #3295
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's impossible to totally prevent illegal immigrants, but after we've left the EU and such immigration can be made illegal then at least we can hope to catch and and repatriate or punish at least some of the criminals.
The outcome being a whole bunch of people being caught and punished for trying to put bread on their table (do UK employers face any consequences? In the U.S. it's a token fine/slap on the wrist).

How does a higher presence of an even more exploitable class in your midst and even more of them being caught and punished moving forward...y'know...translate into any kind of net positive benefit for society?
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Old Yesterday, 11:22 PM   #3296
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's impossible to totally prevent illegal immigrants, but after we've left the EU and such immigration can be made illegal then at least we can hope to catch and and repatriate or punish at least some of the criminals.

The criminals we don't know about and who we have no record they are here. Perhaps house to house searches will root them out, or ID checks in supermarkets.
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Old Today, 12:37 AM   #3297
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post

The criminals we don't know about and who we have no record they are here. Perhaps house to house searches will root them out, or ID checks in supermarkets.
Credit cards, banking, paying for utilities and council tax, employment, vehicle tax and insurance, housing, .... all require identity checks.

Sure, if they have no legal employment, no legal abode, no bank account, pay for everything with cash, don't pay any tax, don't own a vehicle, then they could go undetected indefinitely.
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Old Today, 12:38 AM   #3298
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Credit cards, banking, paying for utilities and council tax, employment, vehicle tax and insurance, housing, .... all require identity checks.

Sure, if they have no legal employment, no legal abode, no bank account, pay for everything with cash, don't pay any tax, don't own a vehicle, then they could go undetected indefinitely.
...or perhaps assume another identity.
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Old Today, 12:40 AM   #3299
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How does a higher presence of an even more exploitable class in your midst and even more of them being caught and punished moving forward...y'know...translate into any kind of net positive benefit for society?
Ask that question of any country that ties to stop illegal immigrants. That is pretty much every country in the world.
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Old Today, 12:41 AM   #3300
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
...or perhaps assume another identity.
Yes. Really easy to do.
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Old Today, 12:42 AM   #3301
Lothian
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Credit cards, banking, paying for utilities and council tax, employment, vehicle tax and insurance, housing, .... all require identity checks.

Sure, if they have no legal employment, no legal abode, no bank account, pay for everything with cash, don't pay any tax, don't own a vehicle, then they could go undetected indefinitely.
To summarise, illegal immigrants coming here to work, pay tax and contribute to the well being of the country will be stopped. Criminals will be allowed to operate unhindered. Genius policy.

Is this the taking back control of our borders that 37.5% of the electorate voted for?

Last edited by Lothian; Today at 12:50 AM.
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Old Today, 12:46 AM   #3302
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I think that operating with the restrictions I outlined could hardly be described as 'unhindered'.
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Old Today, 12:53 AM   #3303
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I think that operating with the restrictions I outlined could hardly be described as 'unhindered'.
I think you are clueless about the criminal class.
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Old Today, 01:18 AM   #3304
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Reminder: There are black markets full of stolen identities and debit/credit cards. And quite cheaply.
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Old Today, 01:33 AM   #3305
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Reminder: There are black markets full of stolen identities and debit/credit cards. And quite cheaply.
Post brexit criminals coming here through our open border won't resort to that. As Ceptimus said they will, seek legal employment, register with the government to get council housing, open bank accounts, apply for genuine credit cards, will seek an NI number to pay tax and build up pension credits, will buy new cars from reputable garages with cash to trigger money laundering checks, register with the DVLA.

We will attract a better behaved criminal once we rid ourselves of the pesky European arrest warrant.
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Old Today, 01:55 AM   #3306
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Yes. Really easy to do.
For a "normal" member of the public - you're right it would be difficult.

For someone who has entered the country illegally through a "professional" gang of people smugglers or someone with good "underworld" connections....

Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Reminder: There are black markets full of stolen identities and debit/credit cards. And quite cheaply.
IIRC, the vast majority of people who are in the country illegally have entered the country legally and have overstayed their visa/permission to remain. Given that EU citizens will likely to continue to enjoy the ability to enter the UK on holiday with minimal scrutiny (unless, post-Brexit, we're proposing single-use visas for EU citizens*) then it's likely that there will be plenty of EU citizens outstaying their visas, intentionally or unintentionally.

* - which would be incompatible with a soft border between NI and Ireland
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Old Today, 04:03 AM   #3307
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's impossible to totally prevent illegal immigrants, but after we've left the EU and such immigration can be made illegal then at least we can hope to catch and and repatriate or punish at least some of the criminals.
And that is why the good friday agreement will be toast because a hard border with Ireland is needed for that.
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Old Today, 04:33 AM   #3308
Craig B
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
EU requests: 14279
UK requests: 241

So which side loses out most by the EU's refusal to cooperate after Brexit?
All right, let's consider that. In the absence of European arrest warrants the U.K. would have an additional 14,279 residents consisting of individuals currently sought by the police of various EU countries, while the rest of the EU would contain only 241 such persons sought by U.K. Police forces. To whose advantage would that be?
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Old Today, 04:42 AM   #3309
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The outcome being a whole bunch of people being caught and punished for trying to put bread on their table (do UK employers face any consequences? In the U.S. it's a token fine/slap on the wrist).
"You can be sent to jail for 5 years and pay an unlimited fine if you’re found guilty of employing someone who you knew or had ‘reasonable cause to believe’ didn’t have the right to work in the UK....

You can also be penalised if you employ someone who doesn’t have the right to work and you didn’t do the correct checks, or you didn’t do them properly.

If this happens, you might get a ‘referral notice’ to let you know your case is being considered and that you might have to pay a civil penalty (fine) of up to £20,000 for each illegal worker." [Home Office]
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Old Today, 05:21 AM   #3310
Craig B
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And that is why the good friday agreement will be toast because a hard border with Ireland is needed for that.
Just let them through and then imprison their children in cages. That should keep the island peaceful!
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Old Today, 05:56 AM   #3311
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Do you still wonder why we voted to stop free movement from the EU to the UK?
Because criminals in the UK have been living most their lives in a gangster's paradise?
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Old Today, 07:46 AM   #3312
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The "Brave Sir Robins" in the rebel wing of the Conservative Party back down again after receiving vague words of assurance...

Quote:
Ministers appear to have headed off a rebellion by Tory MPs minutes before a key vote on their say over Brexit.

Would-be rebels were set to force a showdown on what role Parliament will have in the event of no agreed deal.

But key figure Dominic Grieve said he was backing down after he was promised the Commons Speaker would decide whether a motion on what to do next if there is no deal can be amended by MPs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44542156

IMO they should either get on board fully with Brexit or actually rebel (in the interests of their constituents). This pussyfooting around is just pathetic.....
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Old Today, 08:12 AM   #3313
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The "Brave Sir Robins" in the rebel wing of the Conservative Party back down again after receiving vague words of assurance...



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44542156

IMO they should either get on board fully with Brexit or actually rebel (in the interests of their constituents). This pussyfooting around is just pathetic.....
Internal party politics. Whips and other figures known to be crucial to heading off an embarrassing upset are elevated to more prestigious appointments later in their career. Sometimes this can even be cleverly orchestrated with a favor owed to the "rebellious member brought in line" by the beneficiary. A slim majority or coalition situation makes such drama possible.
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