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Old 14th March 2019, 05:19 AM   #4201
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It would require them to be working in the interests of the country rather than their own personal financial betterment.

This is one key thing that strikes me in the differences between the Independence movement in Scotland and the EU Leave campaign. Agree or disagree with the SNP I don't think any of them hold the positions they do for any reason other than they think it will be the best thing for Scotland, and I doubt many if any of them would stand to benefit personally to any great degree from independence.
You don't think the smps would seek a 25% pay rise to put them on a par with Westminster mps should they take on the extra responsibilities which currently lie in the UK parliament?
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:31 AM   #4202
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The most rational and sensible leave voter I know said to me, "I'd be happy if we could stay in the EEC if it still existed; it's the EU I don't like." I'm pretty sure he'd be happy with something like the Norway option. I could hold my nose and live with it.

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I think for the vast majority of Leave voters, free movement of people would be deal-breaker. Even if the EEC came with free movement of people, it was people from decent countries link Holland or Germany, not Bulgarians and Turks (yes I know, but a person expressing that view wouldn't). That would also be a deal-breaker for many on the left who view free movement as a way of driving down wages (apparently not recognising that they too could move in search of better wages.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:24 AM   #4203
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There is another issue which has hardly been discussed, by anyone. The so called no deal (which is still a possibility) is misnamed. It is form of deal that will be temporary as new deals are negotiated. We have no idea what those deals will be. We could end up with a no deal, but then negotiate to join the CU or EEA.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:28 AM   #4204
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/

Brexit latest news: Brexiteer fury as John Bercow blocks attempt to rule out second referendum

https://metro.co.uk/2019/03/14/mps-v...elays-8902573/

MPs in the Commons will today vote on whether they feel Britain should delay Brexit in order to hold a second referendum. Brexiteer MPs reacted furiously to the amendment put forward by the Independent Group’s Sarah Wollaston. Speaker of the House, John Bercow, selected her amendment to tonight’s Brexit delay vote over another amendment which sought to reject a second referendum for good.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:35 AM   #4205
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is another issue which has hardly been discussed, by anyone. The so called no deal (which is still a possibility) is misnamed. It is form of deal that will be temporary as new deals are negotiated. We have no idea what those deals will be. We could end up with a no deal, but then negotiate to join the CU or EEA.
Sounds easy.
Until the first deals are made and then voted down by parliament.
Don't you think other countries aren't watching right now and seeing what happens if you agree to a deal with the UK?

The perception now is that the UK, having shot itself in the foot once, thinks that the best course forward is to put the selector switch on full auto and pull the trigger again.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:47 AM   #4206
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is another issue which has hardly been discussed, by anyone. The so called no deal (which is still a possibility) is misnamed. It is form of deal that will be temporary as new deals are negotiated. We have no idea what those deals will be. We could end up with a no deal, but then negotiate to join the CU or EEA.
That's absolutely correct but the key question is how long will it take to negotiate these trade deals while, in the meantime, operating on WTO terms.

If it's a matter of months then the damage is limited but if it takes years, or decades then that's an entirely different matter.

If the UK brings its "Everything and a pony or I'll scream til I'm sick" negotiating approach it's taken with the EU to its other trade negotiations then I foresee some lengthy, uncomfortable and ultimately unsuccessful (from the UK standpoint) conversations.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:51 AM   #4207
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Sounds easy.
Until the first deals are made and then voted down by parliament.
Don't you think other countries aren't watching right now and seeing what happens if you agree to a deal with the UK?

The perception now is that the UK, having shot itself in the foot once, thinks that the best course forward is to put the selector switch on full auto and pull the trigger again.
The ROTW has seen we are crap at negotiating (we were much better at invading) and will be very happy at their prospects of negotaiting new deal with us.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:52 AM   #4208
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Great summary of tonights votes here

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brex...al-article-50/

Wollaston amendment (h) for a second referendum and Article 50 extension

Tabled by Independent Group MP Sarah Wollaston and backed by members of the new grouping, Liberal Democrats and a handful from other parties, this amendment seeks an Article 50 extension to stage a second referendum with Remain and Parliament’s preferred Brexit option on the ballot paper.

Benn amendment (i) for indicative votes

The cross-party amendment, tabled by Labour’s Hilary Benn and Yvette Cooper and Tory Sir Oliver Letwin, would force a series of votes to indicate MPs’ preferences.

European Council president Donald Tusk has indicated that the EU may be ready to offer a lengthy extension to negotiations if the UK wants to “rethink its Brexit strategy and build consensus around it”.

Labour amendment (e) to extend Article 50 and reject May’s deal

Labour’s amendment notes that Parliament has “decisively” rejected both Mrs May’s deal and no deal and calls for a delay to Brexit “to provide parliamentary time for this House to find a majority for a different approach”.

Bryant amendment (j) to reject May’s deal

Backed by a range of MPs, including Chris Bryant, the amendment says that “a motion or an amendment which is the same, in substance, as a question which has been decided in the affirmative or negative during the current session may not be brought forward again during that session”, ordering the Government to not move a third meaningful vote.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:25 AM   #4209
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It's interesting that the Labour leadership, who appeared to be so keen on a second referendum a month or so ago when people were leaving the parliamentary party, now seem to have gone cold on the idea and are just as enthusiastically pro-Brexit as the Conservatives (albeit for a different, but equally unachievable, model of Brexit).

It seems to me that all votes will fail this evening and so even though Theresa May's deal is unacceptable, and a no-deal is unacceptable, any delay to the Brexit timetable is equally unacceptable.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:47 AM   #4210
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
In my country there are often only a few persons per party present for voting. Then voting is by holding hands up. The people present are supposed to then vote for the entire party and the vote counting is then assumed to be by partylines.
A set-up that would simply not work in the UK, where two parties hold the overwhelming majority of seats, and usually the one with the most has more than every other party combined. That would be recipe for the government to push through whatever it wanted, without any opposition.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:58 AM   #4211
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is another issue which has hardly been discussed, by anyone. The so called no deal (which is still a possibility) is misnamed. It is form of deal that will be temporary as new deals are negotiated. We have no idea what those deals will be. We could end up with a no deal, but then negotiate to join the CU or EEA.
Or all be face down floating in the North Sea before anything gets agreed.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:02 AM   #4212
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Ah, now I understand. Trump is now claiming that he advised May on how to negotiate this whole business
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:02 AM   #4213
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's interesting that the Labour leadership, who appeared to be so keen on a second referendum a month or so ago when people were leaving the parliamentary party, now seem to have gone cold on the idea and are just as enthusiastically pro-Brexit as the Conservatives (albeit for a different, but equally unachievable, model of Brexit).

It seems to me that all votes will fail this evening and so even though Theresa May's deal is unacceptable, and a no-deal is unacceptable, any delay to the Brexit timetable is equally unacceptable.
Apparently 'now is not the time' for a people's vote. I wonder when it would be exactly? I mean we only have 2 weeks left.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:40 AM   #4214
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Apparently 'now is not the time' for a people's vote. I wonder when it would be exactly? I mean we only have 2 weeks left.
Mind you, in the light of the bizarreness of recent events, the fact that virtually everybody who wants another referendum is about to vote down an amendment mandating one despite the fact that the people who oppose one have said they won't be voting against it seems almost mundane.

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Old 14th March 2019, 09:55 AM   #4215
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's interesting that the Labour leadership, who appeared to be so keen on a second referendum a month or so ago when people were leaving the parliamentary party, now seem to have gone cold on the idea and are just as enthusiastically pro-Brexit as the Conservatives (albeit for a different, but equally unachievable, model of Brexit).
I think Corbyn and his enablers have always been against a second referendum. As in 2017 they allow the more intelligent members like Starmer to woo the electorate and conference with talk of a second referendum but with no intention of following through. Weasels.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:36 AM   #4216
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Labstain at it again.

One Labour MP apparently voted both for and against a second referendum. Jeesus.

If they were asked to vote on the colour of ***** 200 Labour MPs would abstain.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:13 AM   #4217
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Ah, now I understand. Trump is now claiming that he advised May on how to negotiate this whole business
That would explain a lot.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:25 AM   #4218
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Labstain at it again.

One Labour MP apparently voted both for and against a second referendum. Jeesus.
Apparently protocol to indicate he is really abstaining and not just can't be arsed.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:51 AM   #4219
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The various amendments have been defeated or withdrawn, so no second referendum and there was a vote to ask for a delay (Article 50 extension) to Brexit.

I suspect the EU will agree, since they prefer a deal to the so called no deal.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:11 PM   #4220
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I think Corbyn and his enablers have always been against a second referendum. As in 2017 they allow the more intelligent members like Starmer to woo the electorate and conference with talk of a second referendum but with no intention of following through. Weasels.

You would have to be trying pretty hard to be even worse than May but Corbyn has managed to do it.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:12 PM   #4221
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I know, lets just kick the can down the road. With more time we will be able to dither for even longer.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:27 PM   #4222
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I am thinking that an EU member state ought to do the UK a solid and deny an extension. Perhaps faced with crashing out, there is some chance someone might recall that it is Parliament that has power, not referendums, and the whole matter can entirely be put off until such time as we all figure out which household chemical it is that has the whole world currently bonkers.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:33 PM   #4223
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I suspect the EU will agree, since they prefer a deal to the so called no deal.

As it is reported here, not "the EU" but all 27 members (each and every one of them) have to agree to a delay. I doubt that this will happen.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:43 PM   #4224
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The various amendments have been defeated or withdrawn, so no second referendum and there was a vote to ask for a delay (Article 50 extension) to Brexit.

I suspect the EU will agree, since they prefer a deal to the so called no deal.
Or at least to kick the can to after the EU elections so that they will not have a bunch of freshly angry voters come election time. So at least on that side there is a plan as to why kicking it down the road a few months is a good idea even it nothing will change and the UK with still crash out.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:54 PM   #4225
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There has been so little agreement on a Brexit deal so far that I hold out no prospect that a consensus can be reached even with a long delay, or if we crash out with a so called no deal, what sort of deal the UK will get after that.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:07 PM   #4226
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:09 PM   #4227
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Brexit secretary, Steve Barclay ... wound up the debate for the government, saying: “It is time for this house to act in the national interest, it’s time to put forward an extension that is realistic” – before trooping through the no lobby to reject that argument. Government sources insisted he was not intending to resign, despite his unprecedented action.

The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, said: “This evening the Brexit secretary voted against his government’s own motion on Brexit, which earlier in the day he had defended in the House of Commons. That’s the equivalent of the chancellor voting against his own budget. This is a government that has completely lost control.”

What the **** does this mean? It must be some kind of weird parliamentary code, but it's beyond me.
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:18 PM   #4228
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Brexit secretary, Steve Barclay ... wound up the debate for the government, saying: “It is time for this house to act in the national interest, it’s time to put forward an extension that is realistic” – before trooping through the no lobby to reject that argument. Government sources insisted he was not intending to resign, despite his unprecedented action.

The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, said: “This evening the Brexit secretary voted against his government’s own motion on Brexit, which earlier in the day he had defended in the House of Commons. That’s the equivalent of the chancellor voting against his own budget. This is a government that has completely lost control.”

What the **** does this mean? It must be some kind of weird parliamentary code, but it's beyond me.
At the moment I am inclined to believe the leadership of both the major parties in the UK are composed of idiots.
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:23 PM   #4229
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
At the moment I am inclined to believe the leadership of both the major parties in the UK are composed of idiots.
You could extend that to the leadership of the three largest Anglosphere countries
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:26 PM   #4230
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I have a theory that a lot of the best and brightest don't want anything to do with politics and that is why we are getting such bad leadership.
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:00 PM   #4231
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
What the **** does this mean? It must be some kind of weird parliamentary code, but it's beyond me.
During the debate before voting, the Brexit Minister argued in favour of a proposal for extending the deadline for leaving the EU.

He then voted against the proposal.

[Hope that helps]

However it was of course an unwhipped motion.

[That may not help]
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:42 PM   #4232
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have a theory that a lot of the best and brightest don't want anything to do with politics and that is why we are getting such bad leadership.
Paradoxically, we should be paying then more so they can compete with the general job market better.
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:53 PM   #4233
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Brexiternity. I like it.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:11 PM   #4234
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have a theory that a lot of the best and brightest don't want anything to do with politics and that is why we are getting such bad leadership.
The joke is that the problems of the world are due to the fact that all the people who know how to run the world are driving taxis or cutting hair.

But right now I think I would happily replace Parliament with barbers and taxi drivers.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:51 PM   #4235
The Great Zaganza
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Where is a Lord Protector when you need one?
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:46 PM   #4236
Klimax
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Where is a Lord Protector when you need one?
Busy dealing with the Keys. (Bit obscure reference…)
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:51 PM   #4237
dudalb
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Where is a Lord Protector when you need one?
I said that a couple of pages ago. Don't steal my shtick ,man.
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Old 15th March 2019, 12:03 AM   #4238
a_unique_person
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
During the debate before voting, the Brexit Minister argued in favour of a proposal for extending the deadline for leaving the EU.

He then voted against the proposal.

[Hope that helps]

However it was of course an unwhipped motion.

[That may not help]

ROLFMAO. At least this is entertaining.
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Old 15th March 2019, 12:27 AM   #4239
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's interesting that the Labour leadership
You might want to rephrase that, or at least introduce a qualifier or two, such as "people who are supposed to be the Labour leadership", or something to that effect.

Quote:
It seems to me that all votes will fail this evening and so even though Theresa May's deal is unacceptable, and a no-deal is unacceptable, any delay to the Brexit timetable is equally unacceptable.
Interestingly enough, we were both wrong on this count.

One more vote on the deal and if it fails through the government will decide whether or not to cancel Brexit altogether, or so I've heard.

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Old 15th March 2019, 01:06 AM   #4240
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You might want to rephrase that, or at least introduce a qualifier or two, such as "people who are supposed to be the Labour leadership", or something to that effect.
Jeremy Corbyn, the ostensible Labour leader?

Or "purported", or "alleged"...
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