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Tags Venezuela incidents , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

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Old 31st January 2019, 11:37 AM   #481
ahhell
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When you see a cat, it is evident it is a cat, we don't need to study his genome.
When someone else sees a dog, you may wish to consider it.
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Old 31st January 2019, 11:38 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When you see a cat, it is evident it is a cat, we don't need to study his genome.
This is not a cat.
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Old 31st January 2019, 11:47 AM   #483
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Just saw this on the WAPO reader's comment section:

Quote:
Maduro is deporting journalists from countries that are trying to overthrow his government. Maduro thinks the press from right wing countries may be corrupt, because they are owned by right wing oligarchs who want his country's oil. He also doesn't want his country to become a 21st century Vietnam! There's been a history of overthrowing socialist government and replacing them with dictators who let foreign companies exploit the peoples natural resources. Those countries also have very high murder rates targeting environmentalist and indigenous leaders. Imperialism has no place in the 21st century
No doubt if living in the 1930's this individual would have been singing the praises of Uncle Joe. After all, in fighting "Impearialism" anything is justified.
After all a Socialist Government can do no wrong..
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Last edited by dudalb; 31st January 2019 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 31st January 2019, 11:54 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I never seen an itinerant fat
Your claim was about the poor, not simply the itinerant. And in the US, itinerants (ie, homeless people) are dominated by the mentally ill, most poor people in the US are not itinerants. We do a poor job at taking care of our mentally ill, but that's a problem largely caused by people like you who pushed for deinstitutionalization in the 70's and 80's.
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Old 31st January 2019, 01:26 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Venezuela still has gold reserves? That would be amazing.
About 160 tonnes, half as much as a year ago.
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Old 31st January 2019, 02:14 PM   #486
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Sadly, a few "progressive" Congress people are now members of the Maduro fan club.
God, I hate hard line political ideologues of any stripe. And one reason is that anything that somebody on your side of the spectrum does must be defended. All the evil is on the other side,everybody on your side is good and pure.
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Old 31st January 2019, 02:34 PM   #487
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When Captain America keeps up the hardcore projection, at one point he will grow a mustache.
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Old 31st January 2019, 06:06 PM   #488
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Venezuela is a ********
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Old 31st January 2019, 09:57 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes.
It is tribalism at its worst. I was on the far left for many years, starting in high school when I read Chomsky and Zinn etc. In the run up to the second Iraq war (several years after high school) I was shocked at the positions of the far lefties I knew. I mean, I opposed the war, but I still felt that Saddam was one of the most evil bastards to ever breath and the world would be better off if he could just choke to death on his steak, but the friends I talked to - they didn't just oppose the war, they seemed to now 100% support Saddam. I talked to a friend who had long advocated for the Kurds and their fight for independence. Talked to him about how from their perspective it might make sense to support the over-throw of Saddam, and how that troubled me concerning my anti-war position. He responded by talking about how the Kurds were vicious people. A complete 180 on his long-held views of the Kurds because hating the US was essentially all the really mattered. I continued to oppose the war, but would have nothing to do with the anti-war movement. Shortly thereafter I left the left and consider myself to ideologically homeless, and felt a little disorientated until Nick Cohen's book "What's Left?" put into words the way I felt and the experiences I had with the left.

When anything like this goes on in the world I check out one of my favourite far-left message boards. It is always exactly what I expect. Russian interference in the American election? No way. These people would defend Putin even if Putin was strangling them to death. During their last seconds of life they would still maintain that this is America's fault somehow and lovingly gaze into Putin's eyes as he robbed them of their last breath. That Putin is far-right thug who is opposed to everything these people claim to represent should make them among his most vocal opponents, but Putin hates America so......

Most of the far left continuing to idealize and support Chavez as he led his country away from democracy, human rights, and into a financial calamity that is robbing the poor of their future is pretty sickening. Continuing to support Maduro should be seen as absurd, but they simply blame everything on the US. And it wouldn't matter if the US was not involved at all because they would just make up the connections through their weird conspiracy chains and come to the obvious conclusion that it is all the fault of the US. Not mostly. Completely. Nothing bad that ever happens is the fault of the people/parties/regimes they support. That seems a little insulting to those people/parties/regimes who they support, as they rob them of the human agency, and I would call it childish, fantasy thinking, but I teach high school students and it is very rare to see any of them ever espouse such black and white views of the world. That is learned stupidity, generally occurring post high school.

Take the article posted by Childlike Empress "The Making of Juan Guaido" It is just vomitus BS conspiracy crackpottery that would only be believed by someone who has so severely siloed themself in ideological group think that their brain is broken. But they believe it unquestioningly (I have seen it posted and almost universally praised on countless far left sites) - because it espouses the most important thing - it blames everything on the US.

And I mean everything. Guaido has been an CIA asset for like 14 years or something...because of course he has. Step one - read that Guaido spent a bit of time George Washington University more than a decade ago. Find someone connected to that University who is bad. Oh! The neoliberal economist Berrizbeitia. Bingo. That is who Guaido was there to study under. Evidence provided to support the claim? Zero. But no one reading gives a **** about that and now that "connection" can be used to tie more and more conspiracies together. It is shameful, but it is standard practice.

Last edited by Wayward son; 31st January 2019 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 31st January 2019, 10:41 PM   #490
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Growing up in white bread USA I knew left was commie and evil.

Or so I was always told. Later I learned most world governments lean left and most places really were not Orwellian hells to try to survive.
Now even right leaners have started to create the same they have always accused the commies of being.

It comes down to extremists. Corruption and greed in the minds of people in power. It doesn't matter how or if they lean.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:57 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
We talk about Venezuela, US want to kill the socialism in south America to steal their ressources for businessmen profit this is evident. We all know now that the CIA was involve in killing their socialist president in Chili to steal ressources that belong to the population. This is the same thing.
Are referring to Chile? One of South America's most stable and prosperous nations?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/...es/1222764.stm
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Old 1st February 2019, 03:11 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
It is tribalism at its worst. I was on the far left for many years, starting in high school when I read Chomsky and Zinn etc. In the run up to the second Iraq war (several years after high school) I was shocked at the positions SNIP SNIP SNIP gives a **** about that and now that "connection" can be used to tie more and more conspiracies together. It is shameful, but it is standard practice.
Agreed.

Also, their opinion on Israel (a bunch of white people who kicked the original inhabitants of their land). Never mind that 60% of Israeli Jews were kicked out of Arab countries and aren't white.

Their fear of the patriarchy, religion, conservatism and rejection of LGBT rights when it comes from the dreaded Mike Pence. And their indignation and scorn when you point out those same characteristics in Islam.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:56 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Are referring to Chile? One of South America's most stable and prosperous nations?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/...es/1222764.stm
I think he was referring to the overthrow of Allende, way back in 1973.....
What next? Gaitan talking about How Franco is oppressing the Spainish People?
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:07 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Agreed.

Also, their opinion on Israel (a bunch of white people who kicked the original inhabitants of their land). Never mind that 60% of Israeli Jews were kicked out of Arab countries and aren't white.

Their fear of the patriarchy, religion, conservatism and rejection of LGBT rights when it comes from the dreaded Mike Pence. And their indignation and scorn when you point out those same characteristics in Islam.
Hey, I dread Mike Pence for those reasons. I despise what amount to a group of CHristian fundies who would really like to be an American Taliaban.But I also condemn Muslim Governments when they behave that way.
That is a problem I have with a lot of people here;they seem to cut Muslims slack they do not cut for Christians. It's another example of If can convince some people that your are an oppressed people, then those people will defend anything you do.
I think a lot of the blind hatred for Israel you get on this page is pretty astonishing coming from self proclaimed "critical thinkers'.
There is a difference between criticism of Israel for stupid policies ...their West Bank Settlement Policy is really stupid, and Bibi is doing huge damage to Israel every day he is in office...and wanting to destroy Isreal.And I think a number of people here really want the latter.
Problem with Anti Zionism is that horse left the barn in 1948. You have over Five Million Jews in Israel, and I have never yet gotten a reasonable answer to the question of what would happen to them if Israel is destroyed. Generally I get a ritual chant of "Secular Palestinian State" which has about as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell. They cheerfully forget that Hamas wants an Fundy Islamic Regime in what is now Israel. But now we are back to letting Muslim FUndyies off the hook when it comes to extremism....
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:17 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
When anything like this goes on in the world I check out one of my favourite far-left message boards. It is always exactly what I expect. Russian interference in the American election? No way. These people would defend Putin even if Putin was strangling them to death. During their last seconds of life they would still maintain that this is America's fault somehow and lovingly gaze into Putin's eyes as he robbed them of their last breath.
They'd get along wonderfully well with the current American far-right, it seems.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:36 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
They'd get along wonderfully well with the current American far-right, it seems.
I have to repeat my statement that I give Putin credit for one thing;He has found useful idiots on both the left and right, something a Soviet Leader could not have done in a million years.
if you want proof there are far left supporters of Putin, there are a couple people here I could point to....
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Old 2nd February 2019, 08:20 AM   #497
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If the recent video of General Francisco Yanez is genuine then Maduro may be losing the backing of the military. Things could get even uglier shortly.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 08:52 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
If the recent video of General Francisco Yanez is genuine then Maduro may be losing the backing of the military. Things could get even uglier shortly.
Or they could get better. Brazil and Portugal have both had military coups in modern history, that were instrumental in reversing patterns of misrule in each country.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 09:40 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
[snipped lots of good stuff]
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:29 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
They'd get along wonderfully well with the current American far-right, it seems.
They would at least on some issues. I don't really understand the current infatuation that many on the far-right have with Putin. I know it exists. I watched the rise in that kind of thinking, but I have never been on the far right and I don't understand it.

I am sure the underlying worldview that leads to love of Putin on both the far right and far left is very different. Of course, the horseshoe theory would say that the two ends meet and there is something to that. But for many on the far left the central premise of their world view is that the US is at fault for all bad things. All good things exists only because the US hasn't found a way to destroy those things yet. Everything else extends out from there. So if the US hates Putin and Putin hates the US, Putin must be supported. Bad things that Putin does are either denied and claimed to simply be a conspiracy against him, or if they are not denied they were done out of necessity in an attempt to stop the US from total world domination and therefore good. Anyone in Putin's own country who opposes him is evil because he/she is either a lacky of the US or - and this is more likely - a long-standing CIA asset.

The exact same thing is going on with Venezuela (with Madura, obviously being the great hope, every bad thing that has happened - going back to when Chavez first came into power - was due to a grand US conspiracy - and his opponents are all either dupes or CIA assets).

I watched some of these same people infuriated that the US had bombed a hospital in Syria. There could be no justification for that ever. When it was shown to them that it was clearly the Russians who did it, the bombing of the hospital immediately became justifiable - even a good thing - because someone was standing up to the US.

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Agreed.

Also, their opinion on Israel (a bunch of white people who kicked the original inhabitants of their land). Never mind that 60% of Israeli Jews were kicked out of Arab countries and aren't white.

Their fear of the patriarchy, religion, conservatism and rejection of LGBT rights when it comes from the dreaded Mike Pence. And their indignation and scorn when you point out those same characteristics in Islam.
I would argue that for the people I am talking about, essentially all other positions are built upon the founding principle of opposition to the US. So opinions about Israel would switch on a dime if Israel became an opponent of the US.

And, of course, I am not talking about all people on the far left. Others have different founding or central principles. For some it racism or identity politics or something like that. And, of course, others all over the political spectrum have other central principles.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:06 PM   #501
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It would be much less of a riddle if people would actually listen to both sides. At the end of the "cold war", i.e. the self-destruction of the USSR, the US tried to implement a "New World Order" as of Daddy Bush's mouth, which meant through the nineties destroying by illegal (by international law the UN is based upon after Nazi experience) means remains of "communist" "regimes" that weren't directly commanded by the USSR (Yugoslavia, Iraq, etc). At the end of the 90s, this "end of history" was disturbed by Putin, Chavez and some other new-to-power leaders. The plan for a "new" American century continued to fail after 9/11, making Putin's recovering Russia and the rising China a propaganda target. After many wounds with the most recent the survival of independent Syria, we are now at desperate measures of cartoonishly evil scum like Bolton, Pompeo and (unbelievably) Abrams.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:10 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Venezuela is a ********
As a Venezuelan born citizen myself, I........ must agree with your statement
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:16 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
As a Venezuelan born citizen myself, I........ must agree with your statement

What makes you better than the rest of your ilk (asking from self-hating Germany)?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:18 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
What makes you better than the rest of your ilk (asking from self-hating Germany)?
The people, individually, are not bad people. But as an organized society, the whole system, both the people, their social mentality and the government and how it's organized... is complete absolute chaos.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:40 PM   #505
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One of the close relatives of my wife married a lady from Caracas about nine years ago. She most certainly had a different mindset than most I ever met.

Her parents and close family are still there hanging on somehow.
She does not speak of anything political anymore. Before she would slam the Bush regime US pretty hard.
Never heard much about Obama's reign.

History has shown what side is up and now she would love to get her family here to Mexico. Messed up as it is still better than there.

Last edited by 8enotto; 2nd February 2019 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:42 PM   #506
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You know you've developed your developing nation into a ******** when your citizens would rather live in Mexico.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:46 PM   #507
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I left the US for Mexico. My situation improved.
Each has a place somewhere in the world.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:58 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
It is tribalism at its worst. I was on the far left for many years, starting in high school when I read Chomsky and Zinn etc. In the run up to the second Iraq war (several years after high school) I was shocked at the positions of the far lefties I knew. I mean, I opposed the war, but I still felt that Saddam was one of the most evil bastards to ever breath and the world would be better off if he could just choke to death on his steak, but the friends I talked to - they didn't just oppose the war, they seemed to now 100% support Saddam. I talked to a friend who had long advocated for the Kurds and their fight for independence. Talked to him about how from their perspective it might make sense to support the over-throw of Saddam, and how that troubled me concerning my anti-war position. He responded by talking about how the Kurds were vicious people. A complete 180 on his long-held views of the Kurds because hating the US was essentially all the really mattered...
I agree with your analysis 100%. I would only add that there is similar intellectual cookery on the far right as well.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 03:03 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Their fear of the patriarchy, religion, conservatism and rejection of LGBT rights when it comes from the dreaded Mike Pence. And their indignation and scorn when you point out those same characteristics in Islam.
On Quora when I engage anti-Israel types and identify Hamas and Fatah as right-wing, conservative and reactionary, one can almost feel heads pop.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 04:19 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
If the recent video of General Francisco Yanez is genuine then Maduro may be losing the backing of the military. Things could get even uglier shortly.
If the Military begins to walk on Maduro ,he' s toast.
The Russian Revolution comes to mind. TSAR Nicholas II got overthrew when the army turned on him.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 10:31 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
If the recent video of General Francisco Yanez is genuine then Maduro may be losing the backing of the military. Things could get even uglier shortly.
How high up is he? Venezuela has a shedload of generals.

I saw on a pic of a Soanish=language tweet that his rank is "General de Division". Is that like a Brigadier General?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 03:28 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
How high up is he? Venezuela has a shedload of generals.

I saw on a pic of a Soanish=language tweet that his rank is "General de Division". Is that like a Brigadier General?
Apparently, he describes himself as the director of strategic planning in the high command of the Venezuelan air force, so pretty high up. I don't know much about the Venezuelan armed forces but I feel that when he says "90% of the military are not with Maduro" that he is massively overstating his case. If Maduro has followed the dictators playbook and inserted loyal people into key positions in the military then he could hang on for a while yet.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 03:56 AM   #513
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"90% of the military are not with Maduro" may actually be true, but the 10 % are in key positions.

How much of the Venezuelan military is professional, and how much is conscripted?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 06:43 AM   #514
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Hilarious: AFP tweets about "thousands" "pouring into the streets of Caracas" yesterday for the Chicago boy, attaches video of a couple of hundred standing around bored. Meanwhile, "thousands" is an understatement for anti US-meddling protests a few kilometers away.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 07:30 AM   #515
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LONDON — In a comprehensive interview with the U.K.-based outlet The Independent published on Sunday, former special UN rapporteur Alfred de Zayas claimed that crippling U.S. sanctions imposed on Venezuela for the past several years are illegal and amount to “economic warfare” against the Bolivarian Republic. De Zayas also asserted that the U.S. sanctions targeting Venezuela could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law, share much of the responsibility for the current economic crisis in Venezuela, and have resulted in needless deaths of Venezuelans as a result.

De Zayas, who completed his term at the UN less than a year ago, has been critical of the U.S. sanctions regimen — which began in earnest in 2015 when former President Barack Obama declared Venezuela a “national security threat” without evidence. Since then, President Donald Trump has intensified sanctions and has also openly mulled a military intervention in the country, which has the world’s largest proven oil reserves.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for compliance with rule 4.


https://www.mintpressnews.com/former...manity/254334/

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Old 3rd February 2019, 08:56 AM   #516
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The crux is not the oil itself, it is the control of it. Purely coincidentally Venezuela has assumed the annually rotating presidency of OPEC at the beginning of this year, with a central stated goal of promoting payment in other currencies as the dollar. As people like Saddam and Gaddafi can't tell you anymore, attacking the petrodollar is not a healthy thing to do. But times have changed.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 09:05 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In his report, which de Zayas claims has been largely ignored by the UN since its release, the former UN rapporteur wrote:
……...
In his interview, de Zayas opened up about why he felt that the UN and much of the international community had ignored his findings despite the fact that he was the first UN official to visit and report from the country in 21 years:
The preceding are really the only two valuable points in the article.

His report has been ignored by the UN. He was the first UN official to visit the country since Chavez took over. For 20 years the UN has been desperate to send experts to investigate and/or monitor all the vile things this regime has done. Every single one was refused entry. But the red carpet was rolled out for de Zayas. The UN would have loved to have sent in some real investigators on human rights etc, or just some objective people, but that was refused by both Maduro and de Zayas.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 09:44 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
But the complete opposite view of the actual election that is in question:

The Atlanta-based Carter Center whose founder, former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, once said Venezuela had one of the best election processes in the world, also came out against the process.

“On top of the fact the election was illegal, the (electoral council) broke every rule in the book of electoral integrity,” said Jennie K. Lincoln, the Carter Center’s director for Latin America and Caribbean. “This election destroyed any vestiges of democracy that might have yet existed in Venezuela.”
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Old 3rd February 2019, 10:05 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
But the complete opposite view of the actual election that is in question:

So it was that easy to destroy your claim that for 20 years no outside observers were let into the country. With presidential approval. Next you'll claim that there is no independent media in Venezuela, right?

Actually, a key point why this dumbest coup attempt in history will fail is the media savvyness of the Venezuelans. In Syria, a main reason for the "civil war" gaining traction in the beginning was that there was a state-controlled media with extremely low credibility, and then there were countless outside satellite stations (controlled by Qatar and Saudi Arabia mainly) who the people trusted but who started to broadcast a fake reality when the switch was turned in Washington.

Nothing of the kind exists in Venezuela. They all know what to expect from Globovision, CNN and the other billionaire-controlled fake news. And the Bolivarian process made community media structures prosper.
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