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Old 7th September 2012, 08:39 PM   #1
bit_pattern
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Reincarnate DaVinci giving esoteric breast massages in Brisbane

AN alleged new-age cult, run by a former bankrupt who claims to be Leonardo da Vinci reincarnated, is expanding its multimillion-dollar enterprise with the help of Brisbane's medical mainstream.

Universal Medicine, whose practitioners offer controversial treatments to ward off cancer including "esoteric breast massage", is drawing a growing number of clients to its Brisbane clinic via referrals from eye and lung surgeons, rheumatologists and GPs.


http://www.news.com.au/national/new-...-1226467645378
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Old 7th September 2012, 08:55 PM   #2
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So this guy has figured out how to massage womens breasts AND get paid for it - People are going call this all woo - I think it is bloody brilliant
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Old 7th September 2012, 09:52 PM   #3
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I see no evidence for this: “...with the help of Brisbane's medical mainstream ...is drawing a growing number of clients to its Brisbane clinic via referrals from eye and lung surgeons, rheumatologists and GPs.”
The statement is not backed up in any of the stories I’ve read and is likely to be derived from the cult’s own claims.
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Old 7th September 2012, 09:55 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by amensae View Post
I see no evidence for this: “...with the help of Brisbane's medical mainstream ...is drawing a growing number of clients to its Brisbane clinic via referrals from eye and lung surgeons, rheumatologists and GPs.”
The statement is not backed up in any of the stories I’ve read and is likely to be derived from the cult’s own claims.

Who cares he gets to massage breasts!!!!!!
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Old 7th September 2012, 10:16 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
So this guy has figured out how to massage womens breasts AND get paid for it - People are going call this all woo - I think it is bloody brilliant
Perv scumbag needs to be closed down.
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Old 8th September 2012, 01:58 AM   #6
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Yes.
There's an FB page up for victims:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Unive...83035101810213

Here's a sampling of articles, too:

From their website, it seems the training is stringent:
Quote:
Can I learn Esoteric Massage?
The short answer is ‘yes’, as Universal Medicine has an open door policy that allows all an equal entry to any of its services. Esoteric Massage is not only a great stand-alone form of therapy but also a great additional tool to other forms of practice such as medicine, physiotherapy, etc. That said, the true healing arts require a level of integrity that is energetically sound; it is not just about seeking a career or a career change. In order to qualify for the Esoteric Massage Level 1 course, it is a pre-requisite to complete a two-year study of Sacred Esoteric Healing. After Level 1 Esoteric Massage, the students can then take part in the Level 2 course as well as complete nationally accredited levels of Anatomy and Physiology 1 & 2
[url]https://www.universalmedicine.com.au/services/healing-therapies/esoteric-massage[/url


This article gives an overview of the phenomenon and of its appeal.
http://www.medicalobserver.com.au/ne...ersal-medicine
Quote:
GP Dr Sue Page, based in nearby Lennox Head, said that while no geographic area was immune, non-metropolitan areas with a mixture of free-thinking people and lack of accessible medical services were the most fertile for recruitment into such groups.

She said the rise of families where both parents worked long hours, combined with financial insecurity, had many individuals, particularly women, wanting some of the most basic relationship elements: talking, empowerment, touch.

“Then somebody comes into their life and says ‘the reason you feel tired and run down and not yourself and sad all the time… [is] because you need to have this spiritual experience, and if you pay me money I can make you feel better’.”
Faith healing at its finest.
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Old 8th September 2012, 04:45 AM   #7
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Why do I keep reading this as "eroteric breast massage"?

Except for the zero-self-respect part, this would be a rather interesting job for someone like me.
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Old 8th September 2012, 05:31 AM   #8
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Men have been getting massages with "happy endings" for many years.... And of course during the turn-of-the-century period women could go see their physician for a massage to relieve various "female" symptoms....
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Old 11th September 2012, 04:04 PM   #9
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Hi, I apologise in advance if this thread is long, and is not in keeping with the culture of this forum, however, as this is my first contribution of any kind here I feel the need to introduce myself in full. In short, I would like to bring some balance to some of the views that have been expressed on this forum in regards to the media claims that have been made about Universal Medicine. Before I do that, and in the interests of full disclosure I will point out that I have been attending Universal Medicine lectures for around 6 years, and so have first hand experience of the views and philosophies of this organisation (or "cult" if you listen to the media claims"). I will also point out that the name I use on this forum is my own true name - not that I have a problem with others using psuedonym names, as I honour their right to privacy and confidentiality, and appreciate the freedom of expression that comes with this right. However, I have always been known by my family and colleges as a forthright and open person, and one who "walks the talk" so to speak, and so I do not see the need to change that now I am choosing to express in digital form. I would also like to point out that I have no problem at all with people or the media questioning the philosophy of universal medicine, or its teachings, and my intent to contribute to this forum is not to convert or to change people's views on the organisation, but simply to correct any clear mistruths or misrepresentations that have been made by the media (social media included), so that people can be left alone to consider the merits of Universal Medicine based on fact, rather than interpretation. The views and philosophies of universal medicine can easily be found on their website,and stand there on their own merit to be freely judged or ridiculed by any who so choose, as can numerous testimonials from various students from all around the world be found on other forums for those that choose to read them and so I feel no need to bring those discussions to this forum.

With that aside, I would like to point out the following:

1. Universal medicine has over the past few years, and through its founder, introduced a number of alternative "modalities", of which esoteric breast massage (EBM) is only one, the others being chakrapuncture (similar in FORM ONLY to acupuncture), esoteric healing (similar in FORM ONLY I suppose to Reiki), and esoteric massage (a gentle form of relaxing massage). The organisation has formed its own practicioners association, which has been fully accredited and underwritten by a fully independent insurer - OAMPS Insurance Brokers - who obviously researched Universal Medicine thoroughly before agreeing to underwrite the practitioners association. This research included first hand experience with all of their modalities - including esoteric breast massage.

2. Regardless of whether one believes that there is any true benefit from receiving an EBM, the facts are these -

- Esoteric Breast Massage is ONLY performed BY WOMEN FOR WOMEN. You cannot be a male practicioner. No man, including its founder, has ever practiced this technique.

- their is no sexual orientation AT ALL in any of universal medicine's modalities.

- Esoteric Beast Massage is a technique founded to allow women to become more aware of their breasts as part of increasing an awareness of what is going on in their bodies, in a confidential and safe environment with their practitioner. Whilst Universal Medicine makes NO CLAIMS that this technique cures breast cancer (regardless of what has been written in the media), and is on record as having said so numerous times, it is at its most basic level a technique that helps women to become aware of lumps, changes to the breast etc, all of which can be early warning signs of breast cancer. In cases where such signs are detected, the client is immediately advised that they should seek professional advice from a doctor, who is suitably qualified to provide a proper diagnosis.

3. in regards to the "lack of evidence" that there is growing support from Brisbane's medical mainstream, I wish to point out the following ;

- in the interests of confidentiality, and as I don't have their permission, I will not name the various medical practisioners who align to the philosophy of Universal Medicine, and I cannot form a link here to another website as I am only new to the forum, but I will say that there is a forum on the internet founded by those with a medical background who wish to register their support for the philosophy of UM, and whose contributions are made by various rheumatologists, dentists, physiotherapists, GPs, surgeons, lung specialists, to name but a few, and is there for those that choose to look. This in itself provides evidence that there is growing support from mainstream practicioners for the views and philosophies of Universal Medicine. I should point out at this point that Universal Medicine is on record as being fully PRO-MEDICINE, and sees itself as a support to what modern medicine offers - not a replacement.

4. None of Universal Medicine's modalities are based on the concept of "faith healing". The underlying concept, if I could put it in a few words, is this - the modalities that are used are there to encourage people to become more aware of their bodies, and what is going on in their bodies. In increasing this level of awareness, and bringing this awareness into their everday living, they can start to understand how the way they choose to live their life affects their body, and ultimately, their health.

I would like to finish up by saying that there is a lot of mis-information that has been presented out there in the media about Universal Medicine, too much to refute or bring an alternative viewpoint to in this posting. As I stated in the beginning, I am not here to convert or change the views of those who contribute here, and so in order to ensure that I am not imposing my own view, or to be seen to be hijacking this forum, I will offer no more information in regards to Universal Medicine unless it is asked for by other contributors. However, I will say this, once again, in the interests of full disclosure.

In my eyes, and the eyes of many, Universal Medicine at its heart is an organisation devoted to the concept of true brotherhood and equality in humanity. It is an organisation that is dedicated to getting people to question the way life is presented to us, to getting people to become more discerning of the world around them, and to use their life experience to put to trial not only what the world says, but what Universal Medicine presents, and if it does not work for them, then fine, don't do it. As a philosophical organisation, it encourages people to look at all aspects of life, religion included. It is its presentations and views on reincarnation, God, and its explanations for the paranormal that seem to make it so controversial to the outside world, and allow its philosophies, most of which are very practical and of real value in relation to everday life to come under such ridicule.

So, if I am aligned to an organisation that also has a religious context, how can I have any right to contribute to a skeptics forum? I consider myself to have been a skeptic for most of my life, but maybe not in the traditional sense, in that I have never seen why God, or religion should be considered to be of less of a study than science, or that the two are incompatible, as long as it is done with a truly discerning mind. I have never been closed to the possibility that there is a god, or is not a god. At a very young age I turned away from traditional religion, and at the age of 8 was already questioning my religious education teacher (compulsory in Australia) with many of the hard questions like - if you have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven, then what happens to those who never knew he existed - like all of those living in Asia for example. Of course I got no answer, and so I learnt from a very early age, that if religion cannot be related to mankind equally, and make sense to the practical world that we live in, then it cannot be true. BUT, I have never been closed to the possibility of God, or life after death, only that it has to make sense in the world that we know. My alignment to Universal Medicine does not exist because I am a mindless follower. I am a supporter of Universal Medicine and its philosophy , because everyday I discern what they present, and I put it into practice in my life to see if it works. The day it stops working in the real world is the day that I will walk away and say that it is a fraudulent belief system - but that day has not yet come.

I am always fascinated by life, and am truly interested in an open discussion with anyone who wishes to either question other aspects of Universal Medicine, or debate its merits. I am not here to discount or change anyone else's opinion, and actively encourage it, but I am dedicated to debasing any myths or information that is presented. This includes presenting a certain carefully constructed angle based on taking information out of context (as has been done so by the media here in Australia) in order to sensationalise things, for if you are going to chastise anything, then surely you should have in hand all the facts, and not part of the facts, as the media has done in my opinion. My intention here is to do just that - present that facts so that you can make up your own mind
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Old 11th September 2012, 04:20 PM   #10
adam warburton
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Wink

[quote=adam warburton;8610703]ut the following:



2. Regardless of whether one believes that there is any true benefit from receiving an EBM, the facts are these -

- Esoteric Breast Massage is ONLY performed BY WOMEN FOR WOMEN. You cannot be a male practicioner. No man, including its founder, has ever practiced this technique.

- their is no sexual orientation AT ALL in any of universal medicine's modalities.

- Esoteric Beast Massage is a technique founded to allow women to become more aware of their breasts as part of increasing an awareness of what is going on in their bodies, in a confidential and safe environment with their practitioner. Whilst Universal Medicine makes NO CLAIMS that this technique cures breast cancer (regardless of what has been written in the media), and is on record as having said so numerous times, it is at its most basic level a technique that helps women to become aware of lumps, changes to the breast etc, all of which can be early warning signs of breast cancer. In cases where such signs are detected, the client is immediately advised that they should seek professional advice from a doctor, who is suitably qualified to provide a proper diagnosis.

IN regards to my previous posting, and in particular in regards to Esoteric Breast massage, as quoted above, I wish to qualify the following to ensure there is no mis- understanding. Whilst Esoteric Breast Massage may assist in helping to identify early breast cancer warning signs - it makes No claim to do so, and this is not its intent. If such things are picked up during the massage, then of course they are referred on, and this is one of the advantages of having a session, but the practicioners of this technique are NOT qualified to feel for early signs of breast cancer, and make no claims to do so, and it in no way a replacement for a proper breast examination from a qualified doctor
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Old 12th September 2012, 09:11 AM   #11
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Welcome the forum and thanks for a most interesting take on the thread.
Are you a physician?
Which modalities of Universal Medicine are you authorised to practise and how much have you paid for your training all in all?
And how many hours of course work and practices before getting your certificates?

I'd like to get an idea of just what is involved in becoming a practitioner of these techniques.
Thanks!
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Old 12th September 2012, 12:56 PM   #12
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Would I have to have a sex change operation before I'd be allowed to perform esoteric breast massage, or would me wearing a dress and shaving my facial hair off be sufficient?
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Old 13th September 2012, 05:18 AM   #13
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How do you screen out lesbians?
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Old 13th September 2012, 06:45 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Esoteric-Breast-Massage.com
How long is an EBM session?
The first one is 1.5 hours, then 1 hour after that.
An hour and a half?! And there's me thinking three minutes of foreplay was generous...

http://web.archive.org/web/201007220...-massage.com/q
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Old 13th September 2012, 07:02 AM   #15
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Hi Adam Warburton, and thanks for posting.

Just to get the obvious questions out of the way:

Is it true that Benhayon advises, dictates or otherwise determines the eating, sleeping and sexual behaviour of his followers?

Is it correct that some people have spent around $10 000 per year on "Universal Medicine" training or products?

What exactly are Serge Benhayon's medical or scientific experiences, qualifications, degrees or other source(s) of expertise?

Has belief in the effectiveness of any of the "modalities" Benhayon or others charge for providing or teaching been supported by any kind of independent, scientific testing?

If Benhayon has no medical expertise and his methods have no basis in evidence, is it ethical to charge money for his teachings or services, especially amounts totalling millions of dollars?
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Old 13th September 2012, 09:20 AM   #16
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If it's just plain old breast massage to allow women to become more aware of their breasts (lumps, etc.), why is it called Esoteric Breast Massage?
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Old 13th September 2012, 09:21 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by adam warburton View Post
Universal medicine has over the past few years, and through its founder, introduced a number of alternative "modalities", of which esoteric breast massage (EBM) is only one, the others being chakrapuncture (similar in FORM ONLY to acupuncture), esoteric healing (similar in FORM ONLY I suppose to Reiki), and esoteric massage (a gentle form of relaxing massage).
And is there any reason at all to think that any of this is of any medical benefit?

Because if you can't answer that, the rest is rather irrelevant, isn't it?
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Old 13th September 2012, 09:28 AM   #18
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Welcome Adam.

I hope you brought a helmet.
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Old 13th September 2012, 09:40 AM   #19
Sledge
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
How do you screen out lesbians?
I show them my penis. Any woman who laughs is a lesbian.

There's a lot more lesbians out there than the statistics would lead you to think.
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Old 13th September 2012, 11:00 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by adam warburton View Post
Hi, I apologise in advance if this thread is long, and is not in keeping with the culture of this forum, however, as this is my first contribution of any kind here I feel the need to introduce myself in full. In short, I would like to bring some balance to some of the views that have been expressed on this forum in regards to the media claims that have been made about Universal Medicine. Before I do that, and in the interests of full disclosure I will point out that I have been attending Universal Medicine lectures for around 6 years, and so have first hand experience of the views and philosophies of this organisation (or "cult" if you listen to the media claims"). I will also point out that the name I use on this forum is my own true name - not that I have a problem with others using psuedonym names, as I honour their right to privacy and confidentiality, and appreciate the freedom of expression that comes with this right. However, I have always been known by my family and colleges as a forthright and open person, and one who "walks the talk" so to speak, and so I do not see the need to change that now I am choosing to express in digital form. I would also like to point out that I have no problem at all with people or the media questioning the philosophy of universal medicine, or its teachings, and my intent to contribute to this forum is not to convert or to change people's views on the organisation, but simply to correct any clear mistruths or misrepresentations that have been made by the media (social media included), so that people can be left alone to consider the merits of Universal Medicine based on fact, rather than interpretation. The views and philosophies of universal medicine can easily be found on their website,and stand there on their own merit to be freely judged or ridiculed by any who so choose, as can numerous testimonials from various students from all around the world be found on other forums for those that choose to read them and so I feel no need to bring those discussions to this forum.

With that aside, I would like to point out the following:

1. Universal medicine has over the past few years, and through its founder, introduced a number of alternative "modalities", of which esoteric breast massage (EBM) is only one, the others being chakrapuncture (similar in FORM ONLY to acupuncture), esoteric healing (similar in FORM ONLY I suppose to Reiki), and esoteric massage (a gentle form of relaxing massage). The organisation has formed its own practicioners association, which has been fully accredited and underwritten by a fully independent insurer - OAMPS Insurance Brokers - who obviously researched Universal Medicine thoroughly before agreeing to underwrite the practitioners association. This research included first hand experience with all of their modalities - including esoteric breast massage.

2. Regardless of whether one believes that there is any true benefit from receiving an EBM, the facts are these -

- Esoteric Breast Massage is ONLY performed BY WOMEN FOR WOMEN. You cannot be a male practicioner. No man, including its founder, has ever practiced this technique.

- their is no sexual orientation AT ALL in any of universal medicine's modalities.

- Esoteric Beast Massage is a technique founded to allow women to become more aware of their breasts as part of increasing an awareness of what is going on in their bodies, in a confidential and safe environment with their practitioner. Whilst Universal Medicine makes NO CLAIMS that this technique cures breast cancer (regardless of what has been written in the media), and is on record as having said so numerous times, it is at its most basic level a technique that helps women to become aware of lumps, changes to the breast etc, all of which can be early warning signs of breast cancer. In cases where such signs are detected, the client is immediately advised that they should seek professional advice from a doctor, who is suitably qualified to provide a proper diagnosis.

3. in regards to the "lack of evidence" that there is growing support from Brisbane's medical mainstream, I wish to point out the following ;

- in the interests of confidentiality, and as I don't have their permission, I will not name the various medical practisioners who align to the philosophy of Universal Medicine, and I cannot form a link here to another website as I am only new to the forum, but I will say that there is a forum on the internet founded by those with a medical background who wish to register their support for the philosophy of UM, and whose contributions are made by various rheumatologists, dentists, physiotherapists, GPs, surgeons, lung specialists, to name but a few, and is there for those that choose to look. This in itself provides evidence that there is growing support from mainstream practicioners for the views and philosophies of Universal Medicine. I should point out at this point that Universal Medicine is on record as being fully PRO-MEDICINE, and sees itself as a support to what modern medicine offers - not a replacement.

4. None of Universal Medicine's modalities are based on the concept of "faith healing". The underlying concept, if I could put it in a few words, is this - the modalities that are used are there to encourage people to become more aware of their bodies, and what is going on in their bodies. In increasing this level of awareness, and bringing this awareness into their everday living, they can start to understand how the way they choose to live their life affects their body, and ultimately, their health.

I would like to finish up by saying that there is a lot of mis-information that has been presented out there in the media about Universal Medicine, too much to refute or bring an alternative viewpoint to in this posting. As I stated in the beginning, I am not here to convert or change the views of those who contribute here, and so in order to ensure that I am not imposing my own view, or to be seen to be hijacking this forum, I will offer no more information in regards to Universal Medicine unless it is asked for by other contributors. However, I will say this, once again, in the interests of full disclosure.

In my eyes, and the eyes of many, Universal Medicine at its heart is an organisation devoted to the concept of true brotherhood and equality in humanity. It is an organisation that is dedicated to getting people to question the way life is presented to us, to getting people to become more discerning of the world around them, and to use their life experience to put to trial not only what the world says, but what Universal Medicine presents, and if it does not work for them, then fine, don't do it. As a philosophical organisation, it encourages people to look at all aspects of life, religion included. It is its presentations and views on reincarnation, God, and its explanations for the paranormal that seem to make it so controversial to the outside world, and allow its philosophies, most of which are very practical and of real value in relation to everday life to come under such ridicule.

So, if I am aligned to an organisation that also has a religious context, how can I have any right to contribute to a skeptics forum? I consider myself to have been a skeptic for most of my life, but maybe not in the traditional sense, in that I have never seen why God, or religion should be considered to be of less of a study than science, or that the two are incompatible, as long as it is done with a truly discerning mind. I have never been closed to the possibility that there is a god, or is not a god. At a very young age I turned away from traditional religion, and at the age of 8 was already questioning my religious education teacher (compulsory in Australia) with many of the hard questions like - if you have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven, then what happens to those who never knew he existed - like all of those living in Asia for example. Of course I got no answer, and so I learnt from a very early age, that if religion cannot be related to mankind equally, and make sense to the practical world that we live in, then it cannot be true. BUT, I have never been closed to the possibility of God, or life after death, only that it has to make sense in the world that we know. My alignment to Universal Medicine does not exist because I am a mindless follower. I am a supporter of Universal Medicine and its philosophy , because everyday I discern what they present, and I put it into practice in my life to see if it works. The day it stops working in the real world is the day that I will walk away and say that it is a fraudulent belief system - but that day has not yet come.

I am always fascinated by life, and am truly interested in an open discussion with anyone who wishes to either question other aspects of Universal Medicine, or debate its merits. I am not here to discount or change anyone else's opinion, and actively encourage it, but I am dedicated to debasing any myths or information that is presented. This includes presenting a certain carefully constructed angle based on taking information out of context (as has been done so by the media here in Australia) in order to sensationalise things, for if you are going to chastise anything, then surely you should have in hand all the facts, and not part of the facts, as the media has done in my opinion. My intention here is to do just that - present that facts so that you can make up your own mind

Cut to the chase. How much is a boob massage?
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Old 13th September 2012, 01:31 PM   #21
George 152
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Yes.
It sounds like a full hands on therapy
Please keep us abreast of developments..
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Old 13th September 2012, 02:55 PM   #22
gabeygoat
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
Hi Adam Warburton, and thanks for posting.

Just to get the obvious questions out of the way:

Is it true that Benhayon advises, dictates or otherwise determines the eating, sleeping and sexual behaviour of his followers?

Is it correct that some people have spent around $10 000 per year on "Universal Medicine" training or products?

What exactly are Serge Benhayon's medical or scientific experiences, qualifications, degrees or other source(s) of expertise?

Has belief in the effectiveness of any of the "modalities" Benhayon or others charge for providing or teaching been supported by any kind of independent, scientific testing?

If Benhayon has no medical expertise and his methods have no basis in evidence, is it ethical to charge money for his teachings or services, especially amounts totalling millions of dollars?

I hope Warburton comes back, 'cause those are good questions.
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Old 14th September 2012, 05:08 PM   #23
adam warburton
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Hi guys. In particular,to Pakaya, PixyMisa, Dlorde, Kevin_Lowe, thanks for opening up with some fair questions. I was going to answer them individually at first, but it will be better if I answer them collectively. I am busy running my own small building business by day, and so I may not always be able to respond straight away, but I will eventually engage in any questions that are fair and open (and even if they are challenging).

Before that, I wish to make the following point. When I was young, my father used to tell me a story based upon what he was taught whilst studying statistics at university. In his first lecture, he was told about a famous dutch study that had found a direct correlation between the number of storks nesting in spring and the number of child births at that time. Of course common sense tells us that there is no direct causal relationship, but my point is this. I can present isolated facts is direct response to your questions,but if you already have a preconceived picture, then you will use those isolated facts in separation to the whole that they come from to suit that view that you already have - and therefore your time and my time is wasted before we even start - for together we will have gotten no-where. The concept of Universal Medicine is a life philosophy that encompasses all aspects of life. Most questions to date seem to be directed purely at the modality aspect of Universal Medicine, and I understand why, but this is only one aspect of UM, and I cannot begin to answer your questions about the modalities without putting their true purpose in context of the whole UM philosophy.

Therefore, please understand that by necessity some of my postings may be long, and I may not answer questions in the order that they are presented, but answer in time I will and in detail. Also, it may take several postings for me to truly answer some of your questions, for I cannot in truth answer a part without trying to explain the whole as I see it, and this may take time. So with that in mind, all that I ask from my end, is that you don't hold back on your hardline questions at all, but at the same time you take the philosophy of a true skeptic, and not that of a cynic. What I mean is that the cynic will already have their mind made up, and so, even though they will see themselves as being rational, they will already be viewing the facts through rose coloured glasses (as the media has done in my opinion), whereas the true skeptic will still use rationale, but will remain open to the possiblility of where the facts may take them, and are also open to the fact that whilst the science of the day may actually proclaim the world to be flat, there is also the possibility that it might just be round, science just has not caught up yet. For if you look at some of the great discoveries in the world of science (Einstein, Copernicus for example), they were based on hypothesis that did not ORIGINATE from the science at the time, but IN SPITE of the science at the time, and it was many years later that science was able to catch up.

If this discussion is to develop and evolve, and I would hope that it turns more into a discussion, rather than a debate where we sit on opposite sides of the fence and throw stones back and forth, there will be many instances where I am not going to be able to use scientific fact to "defend" the philosophy of Universal Medicine, but where I can I will where possible. The fact is that as I have said before, what is presented by UM is a philosophy on life, and it is a philosophy that challenges much of the mainstream thinking out there. It is not that it is totally without scientific merit, or that many of its views are not expressed elsewhere in the world, it is just that its many views on all aspects of life are brought together in a way that probably has not been expressed before. In this way, much of what it presents can best be described as a hypothesis on life. That hypothesis has yet to be proved or dis-proved in full by scientific fact, and won't be for a while yet. Having said that, there are many hundreds of people who are willing to put to trial in their life what is presented by UM to see if it truly works or not. If you like, you can say that it is a life experiment that is being conducted by many. UM is only a young organisation, and there are only now medical experts that I know of that are supporters of UM that are starting now to conduct scientific research to provide some data as to whether the modalities, for example, have any credibility from a traditional medical viewpoint.

To those contributors that I mentioned in the beginning, I have not even begun to answer your questions in this posting, but I will ensure that in my next post (which i hope will be this afternoon) I will do my best to answer your questions more directly, as they are reasonable and questions that I would expect. But for now, I leave you with the following, based upon what I have presented above:


If you are the media, and you have a preconceived idea as to what is a cult is based upon experience of other cults, and you also have pressure to produce stories that catch the readers interest, and you come across an organisation that is headed by one person who presents their philosophical view on the world, is an organisation that has a high turnover (not profit) of around $2 million per year, you see that people who attend its courses are making large changes in their lives based upon what is presented, then you find out that the owner has several property investments. On top of that you find people that make claims ( that may be legitimate in their eyes) that the organisation is causing marriage breakdowns, it is VERY EASY to put those facts together, as with the stork analogy, and present the angle that it is indeed a cult with brainwashed followers, especially if you do not have the resources or time to conduct a proper investigation.

But I could do the same with, say, Steve Jobs and Apple - charismatic leader with an infectous view of things, muli-million dollar turnover, millions of followers around the world etc, marriage breakups that some claimed were due to their partner spending too much time on their 'I'phone, or too much time working for the company etc. Same fact, same conclusion? OR, is Apple just a company that has millions of followers because it produces a product that makes sense to the end user because of its practical simplicity, and its founder is widely admired because people agree with his philisophy about simplicity in design. Easy to take different angles if you pull the facts apart without looking at the whole....
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Old 14th September 2012, 05:43 PM   #24
Sledge
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Just to save people some time, nothing in adam's above wall of text answered any of the questions he's been asked.
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Old 14th September 2012, 05:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
Just to save people some time, nothing in adam's above wall of text answered any of the questions he's been asked.
Thanks. Definitely a tl;dr situation there.
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Old 15th September 2012, 01:34 AM   #26
adam warburton
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Hi Guys,

As promised in my last post, below are answers to nearly all of the direct questions that have been asked thus far. I have kept it as brief as I can...

Prixy misa - Is there any medical benefit to any of this?

The answer from my experience is yes. As I have stated previously, the whole concept of the modalities is based on the the concept that we are ultimately responsible for our own healing, and have a great part to play in the nature of our health. The nature of life as we have come to know it encourages us to live in a way that is not in harmony with our body. Most of us constantly overrule our body with our mind, to the point where we no longer are even aware of early warning signs that our body is not coping with the decisions we are making. We eat food that is not right for us, we socialise with drugs (including alcohol) as a means to relax, we push the boundaries in sport and extracurricular endeavours, and we constantly feed the body excessive amounts of sugar and in many cases caffene to override the body natural level of exhaustion. Then, as a human race, when something goes wrong, we arrogantly want the medical system to “fix us”, give us a remedy, so that we can then return to the way we were living our life previously without questioning it. So, what if we have lost the ability to listen more carefully to our body. What all the modalities present through very simple techniques is an opportunity for people to slow down and connect to themselves and their body without the business of the mind.

The modalities on their own, do not promise any “quick healing”, or “faith healing”, or miracles of any sort, and on their own they are useless if you do not incorporate what you felt in the session into your everyday life. For example, if in a massage session, you realise how actually tired and rundown you are, as many people do, then there in itself is an opportunity for you to question how you are living that so exhausts you. If you don’t take that opportunity, then the awareness you developed in the session is but for naught.

Personally, through the sessions I have had, and through incorporating what I have felt into my everyday life, I have seen substantial changes to my health. As I stated previously, I am a builder, and before my time with Universal Medicine, I was constantly run down, survived on a diet of caffiene, sugar, meat pies etc, drank a couple of glasses of wine every few nights to put me to sleep, and at least once a year had a serious flue with bronchitis like symptoms. Since I have started to look at all aspects of my life, all of that has changed. I have not been sick since, I get better quality sleep, I have more energy to get through the day, and no longer need caffiene. Not rocket science? I know its not. How did the modalities assist this? Just that, they assisted in helping me learn to re-connect with what was truly going on in the body.

DLorde -
If it's just plain old breast massage to allow women to become more aware of their breasts (lumps, etc.), why is it called Esoteric Breast Massage?


In short, the esoteric in this context is used in relation to its original root meaning, which means “within”, from the greek word “esotero”. I understand that the modern dictionary gives a different definition, which means hidden or mysterious, but this is not the way it is used here. What does this mean? It relates the the philosophy that the truth resides within. In other words, to ponder deeply in order to find the answer, rather than to constantly search outside of yourself for the truth to life. In relation to plain old breast massage, as I stated originally, it is at its most BASIC a chance for women to become more aware of their breasts. On a deeper level, it is an opportunity for women to become still in both body and mind, and to contemplate on how society has imposed on them as a women (eg have to look a certain way etc).

I understand that the term breast massage conjures up all sorts of images, and the response on this site exposes the way as men we see breasts as primarily sex objects. But this responses say more about the culture of society than it does about EBMS. What opportunity is there in the world for women to appreciate their breasts as just another part of their body to be respected without the constant sexual imposition that is placed upon them?

d-Lorde
Hi Adam Warburton, and thanks for posting.

Just to get the obvious questions out of the way:

Is it true that Benhayon advises, dictates or otherwise determines the eating, sleeping and sexual behaviour of his followers?

The short answer is “no”. Serge Benhayon as I see it is a philosopher who presents to the public a way of life and and way of living that has truly worked for him. He makes a special point over and over again that what he is trying present is for people to learn to listen to their bodies the way he has learnt to do to develop their own degrees of awareness in regards to diet, sleep, etc. Whether you wish to believe in his philosophies or not is entirely up to you, as it is up to anyone who walks in the door to Universal Medicine. UM has an open door policy to its lectures and courses. They are attended by people from all walks of life, and nobody is forced or pressured to attend or not attend. What inspires people, I suppose, to follow what he presents is that he lives that way himself, and it shows. I personally know that the guy works up to 17 to 18 hours a day, and has as little as 4 hours sleep a night, yet never looks exhausted. He is remarkably consistent in his approach with people, and his delivery on stage is no different to how he is with you in person.

Having said all of that, I do of some people who attend UM workshops, who have a “cult” mentality, if you like. They follow every word he says, and follow what he says as rules, but this is to their own detriment, for they are missing the very fundamental point - that it is for us to discern through our own life experience what works and does not work. The man himself is on public record consitently making this very point.

His biggest points in regards to diet are the negative effects of dairy, gluten, alcohol, caffiene, and exessive sugar consumption, and their effects on our vitality as a whole - hardly a controversial viewpoint. Personally, I have made these changes in my life gradually as a way to trial them out, and, well, now I have to say that I agree. The body functions remarkably better without those food groups.

In regards to sex, that is what has been reported in the media is absolute nonsense. What I have heard him present is the fact that maybe sex should't be just about sex, that maybe before we get to that point, we should be making the effort to be more loving with our partners in all aspects of our relationship with them. In this way, we are "making love" about a way of living with our partners, not just something that occurs in the bedroom, that part of the key to a better relationship, is learning to connect on a deeper and more intimate level with our partners. From my experience I have found with my wife that this has lead to a more respectful and intimate loving relationship. Never have i heard him say "Not to Have sex". What I have heard him say is that maybe we should focus less on sex, and more on being loving in everyday life.

IN regards to sleep he does present the hypotheses that the best quality of sleep is between 9.00pm and 3.00am. But the philosophy of sleep does not end there. What he also presents is that what is missing in most peoples lives is a proper wind down period prior to sleep to allow the body to prepare for sleep. We stay up engaging the mind in movies and the internet etc and then magically expect the body to stop because we close our eyes. Personally, i have put this philosophy to the test, and found it works. But even before UM came along, I knew that an 8 hour sleep that started at 2.00am in the morning was not as recuperating as an 8 hour sleep that started at say 8.00pm.

However, this is only a presentation. It is up to people who listen to decide for themselves, and I know plenty of people who attend Universal Medicine events who do not incorporate what he presents into their lives.



Is it correct that some people have spent around $10 000 per year on "Universal Medicine" training or products?

Yes, I suppose if you look at some people, they might do that easily, with a retreat to Vietnam once a year included in that. But it is not necessary, and in no way encouraged that I can see. Personally, I have been attending courses etc for around 6 years, but don't spend any where near that, so as you can see, there is no compulsion to do so. Lectures start at $5 for a Friday night, and $15 for a 3 hour group presentation on Saturday around once a month, with full day lectures costing around $130 or near enough. The modality courses are significantly more expensive if you want to attend them all. I suppose if I added up my own costs, including a retreat once a year, I would spend around $3500 per year. But so what? When I played a lot of sport, I easily spent that each year in annual memberships, gear, social gatherings etc. From my observations, the people that do attend “everything” generally tend to be able to afford it - either becuase they are retired, or becuase they are in a profession that gives them the disposable income (I am not discounting the prospect that there are those that may live above their means, but I don’t see that as the fault of Universal Medicine). UM is a very non-imposing organisation, as I said, and people are very free to do as they choose.

What exactly are Serge Benhayon's medical or scientific experiences, qualifications, degrees or other source(s) of expertise?


Serge Benhayon has no medical or scientific expertise as I know, nor any degree, qualifications etc. Having said that, he has made mention of an alternative healing degree that he had, but he did not name it as he does not practice it nor believe in its effectiveness, and has nothing to do with the modalities he teaches, so I don't know that that is too relevant. As I understand it, he has also studied acupuncture to enable him to use needles for the modality called Chakrapuncture. Other that that he makes no claim that I know of. He has never claimed in my experience to be a medical expert in the traditional sense. What I would categorise him is as is a Philosopher on life, and I don't think that he advertises himself as anything but.

Does he have differing views on medicine? Yes .
Is he anti-medicine - anything but. His viewpoint is simply that western medicine is a very important part of the whole in regards to medicine, but it is only a part. He is very respectfull of western medicine, but he is not the first person to point out that western medicine is very remedy focussed, understandably, and whilst I am sure more doctors would like to explore the concept of how we live contributes to ill health, they are overwhelmed currently with the plethora of medical conditions that are out there.


Has belief in the effectiveness of any of the "modalities" Benhayon or others charge for providing or teaching been supported by any kind of independent, scientific testing?


To date, no, at least not if full. As I stated in my previous post, the philosophy of Universal Medicine is a hypothesis if you like, but one that is being tested in the way people live their lives (for those who so choose). However, there are several medical practicioners from different fields who have seen the benefits of the modalities and the philosophy of UM who are starting to collect verifiable scientific data that is intended to be published in scientific journals once it is collated. There is, however, at this point, substantial anecdotal evidence from people who can attest the the way the modalities have assisted them to have greater vitality in their bodies, and have assisted them to live a more emotionally balanced life. There is no the internet, also, for example, testimonials from cancer patients who have received chakrapuncture as supporting treatment (NOT replacement treatment, for UM makes NO CLAIMS to cure cancer) for their chemotherapy, and have reported far less side effects than normal.

As I stated previously, as well, the insurer OAMPS went to great levels with its own investigation before agreeing to underwrite the insurance for the Universal Medicine Modalities. This I know is not evidence in itself that the modalities work, but it is evidence that there is a certain level of professional integrity with the modalities are practiced.

If Benhayon has no medical expertise and his methods have no basis in evidence, is it ethical to charge money for his teachings or services?

So we get to your crunch point. Absolutely, unless you are going to discount the whole of the alternative therapies industry as having any ethical right to exist. Unless you are going to discount the chiropractor association’s right to exist, which has scientific viewpoints on both sides of the fence as to its effectiveness. Even physiotherapy, as most of them will tell you is not founded on indisputable scientific evidence as of yet, particularly in regards to the effectivenss of magnetic treatments etc. Similarly, the modalities of UM are currently under scientific evaluation by several medical practicioners, but it is still in its infancy, as was once other “alternative” modalities. The fact is that the modalities are very gentle and non-imposing, and in the worst case they certainly do no harm to the client. If a client, however, used them as a replacement for seeing a qualified doctor, then I would see the harm and questions the ethics as such. However, unlike many alternative therapies, Universal Medicine also makes no claims to “heal”, or replace Western Medcine, but simply to provide a supporting role in the betterment of one’s health, and actively promotes western medicine. It costs around $70 for a session, or $35 for a chakrapuncture session, and there is no imposition upon the client to have follow up sessions etc. For that price, people can decide for themselves as to whether or not there is any perceived benefit. Personally, I find great benefit in the ability of the modalities in assisting me to arrest the momentums I may find myself in, and to stop and reassess what is really going on in the body, and to that extent, I personally book a session in every couple of months. I also, however, get regulary medical checkups and see my dentist once a year.

To Pakaya,

I need some time to get the facts for you. I know most of them off hand, but need to confirm them for you
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Old 15th September 2012, 01:40 AM   #27
jimfish
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It's the one constant I've seen regarding Universal Medicine; the wall of text. It reminds me of Scientology, and how they'd have their members employed around the clock on Usenet's alt.scientology to counter every and all posts. Any forum topic, blog post or news article mentioning UM or Serge Benhayon will have a new user pop-up within hours or days of its creation, writing a screed very much like Adam's, hitting all the usual marks; "I was a former skeptic", "preconceived misconceptions about the word 'cult'", "Serge isn't in it for the money" etc.

There's a set of almost identical blogs I came across, all singing the praises of Serge with names like "TheTruthAboutSergeBenhayon", "WordsOnSergeBenhayon", "MedicineandSergeBenhayon", with page after page of the devotee's organized letter-writing campaign to The Courier Mail, after it had published a critical article. I even spotted that one of the articles was written by one Adam Warburton, although unrelated to the Courier.

The online actions of UM 'students' alone are enough to ring the cult warning alarm.
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Old 15th September 2012, 02:09 AM   #28
adam warburton
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Hi Jimfish,

your opinion is respected, but understand that the sites you have mentioned have been organised by student members from Universal Medicine as a direct result of not being able to receive a balanced viewpoint from the media circus. I personally have been interviewed by A Current Affair, but they chose not to air any coverage of my interview because it did not suit their slant that Universal Medicine was made up of nearly entirely female followers. Universal Medicine did not ask for the publicity, nor did its members. The view they share are done so openly, as are the views on the websites you mentioned. There is nothing sinister in that. Unlike scientology, the views of universal medicine and its students are very easy to research, and unlike scientology there are no secret doctrines, or information that is kept for the select few.

Last edited by adam warburton; 15th September 2012 at 02:09 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 15th September 2012, 02:21 AM   #29
Kid Eager
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Originally Posted by adam warburton View Post
Hi Guys,

As promised in my last post, below are answers to nearly all of the direct questions that have been asked thus far. I have kept it as brief as I can...

Prixy misa - Is there any medical benefit to any of this?

The answer from my experience is yes. As I have stated previously, the whole concept of the modalities is based on the the concept that we are ultimately responsible for our own healing, and have a great part to play in the nature of our health. The nature of life as we have come to know it encourages us to live in a way that is not in harmony with our body. Most of us constantly overrule our body with our mind, to the point where we no longer are even aware of early warning signs that our body is not coping with the decisions we are making. We eat food that is not right for us, we socialise with drugs (including alcohol) as a means to relax, we push the boundaries in sport and extracurricular endeavours, and we constantly feed the body excessive amounts of sugar and in many cases caffene to override the body natural level of exhaustion. Then, as a human race, when something goes wrong, we arrogantly want the medical system to “fix us”, give us a remedy, so that we can then return to the way we were living our life previously without questioning it. So, what if we have lost the ability to listen more carefully to our body. What all the modalities present through very simple techniques is an opportunity for people to slow down and connect to themselves and their body without the business of the mind.

The modalities on their own, do not promise any “quick healing”, or “faith healing”, or miracles of any sort, and on their own they are useless if you do not incorporate what you felt in the session into your everyday life. For example, if in a massage session, you realise how actually tired and rundown you are, as many people do, then there in itself is an opportunity for you to question how you are living that so exhausts you. If you don’t take that opportunity, then the awareness you developed in the session is but for naught.

Personally, through the sessions I have had, and through incorporating what I have felt into my everyday life, I have seen substantial changes to my health. As I stated previously, I am a builder, and before my time with Universal Medicine, I was constantly run down, survived on a diet of caffiene, sugar, meat pies etc, drank a couple of glasses of wine every few nights to put me to sleep, and at least once a year had a serious flue with bronchitis like symptoms. Since I have started to look at all aspects of my life, all of that has changed. I have not been sick since, I get better quality sleep, I have more energy to get through the day, and no longer need caffiene. Not rocket science? I know its not. How did the modalities assist this? Just that, they assisted in helping me learn to re-connect with what was truly going on in the body.

DLorde -
If it's just plain old breast massage to allow women to become more aware of their breasts (lumps, etc.), why is it called Esoteric Breast Massage?


In short, the esoteric in this context is used in relation to its original root meaning, which means “within”, from the greek word “esotero”. I understand that the modern dictionary gives a different definition, which means hidden or mysterious, but this is not the way it is used here. What does this mean? It relates the the philosophy that the truth resides within. In other words, to ponder deeply in order to find the answer, rather than to constantly search outside of yourself for the truth to life. In relation to plain old breast massage, as I stated originally, it is at its most BASIC a chance for women to become more aware of their breasts. On a deeper level, it is an opportunity for women to become still in both body and mind, and to contemplate on how society has imposed on them as a women (eg have to look a certain way etc).

I understand that the term breast massage conjures up all sorts of images, and the response on this site exposes the way as men we see breasts as primarily sex objects. But this responses say more about the culture of society than it does about EBMS. What opportunity is there in the world for women to appreciate their breasts as just another part of their body to be respected without the constant sexual imposition that is placed upon them?

d-Lorde
Hi Adam Warburton, and thanks for posting.

Just to get the obvious questions out of the way:

Is it true that Benhayon advises, dictates or otherwise determines the eating, sleeping and sexual behaviour of his followers?

The short answer is “no”. Serge Benhayon as I see it is a philosopher who presents to the public a way of life and and way of living that has truly worked for him. He makes a special point over and over again that what he is trying present is for people to learn to listen to their bodies the way he has learnt to do to develop their own degrees of awareness in regards to diet, sleep, etc. Whether you wish to believe in his philosophies or not is entirely up to you, as it is up to anyone who walks in the door to Universal Medicine. UM has an open door policy to its lectures and courses. They are attended by people from all walks of life, and nobody is forced or pressured to attend or not attend. What inspires people, I suppose, to follow what he presents is that he lives that way himself, and it shows. I personally know that the guy works up to 17 to 18 hours a day, and has as little as 4 hours sleep a night, yet never looks exhausted. He is remarkably consistent in his approach with people, and his delivery on stage is no different to how he is with you in person.

Having said all of that, I do of some people who attend UM workshops, who have a “cult” mentality, if you like. They follow every word he says, and follow what he says as rules, but this is to their own detriment, for they are missing the very fundamental point - that it is for us to discern through our own life experience what works and does not work. The man himself is on public record consitently making this very point.

His biggest points in regards to diet are the negative effects of dairy, gluten, alcohol, caffiene, and exessive sugar consumption, and their effects on our vitality as a whole - hardly a controversial viewpoint. Personally, I have made these changes in my life gradually as a way to trial them out, and, well, now I have to say that I agree. The body functions remarkably better without those food groups.

In regards to sex, that is what has been reported in the media is absolute nonsense. What I have heard him present is the fact that maybe sex should't be just about sex, that maybe before we get to that point, we should be making the effort to be more loving with our partners in all aspects of our relationship with them. In this way, we are "making love" about a way of living with our partners, not just something that occurs in the bedroom, that part of the key to a better relationship, is learning to connect on a deeper and more intimate level with our partners. From my experience I have found with my wife that this has lead to a more respectful and intimate loving relationship. Never have i heard him say "Not to Have sex". What I have heard him say is that maybe we should focus less on sex, and more on being loving in everyday life.

IN regards to sleep he does present the hypotheses that the best quality of sleep is between 9.00pm and 3.00am. But the philosophy of sleep does not end there. What he also presents is that what is missing in most peoples lives is a proper wind down period prior to sleep to allow the body to prepare for sleep. We stay up engaging the mind in movies and the internet etc and then magically expect the body to stop because we close our eyes. Personally, i have put this philosophy to the test, and found it works. But even before UM came along, I knew that an 8 hour sleep that started at 2.00am in the morning was not as recuperating as an 8 hour sleep that started at say 8.00pm.

However, this is only a presentation. It is up to people who listen to decide for themselves, and I know plenty of people who attend Universal Medicine events who do not incorporate what he presents into their lives.



Is it correct that some people have spent around $10 000 per year on "Universal Medicine" training or products?

Yes, I suppose if you look at some people, they might do that easily, with a retreat to Vietnam once a year included in that. But it is not necessary, and in no way encouraged that I can see. Personally, I have been attending courses etc for around 6 years, but don't spend any where near that, so as you can see, there is no compulsion to do so. Lectures start at $5 for a Friday night, and $15 for a 3 hour group presentation on Saturday around once a month, with full day lectures costing around $130 or near enough. The modality courses are significantly more expensive if you want to attend them all. I suppose if I added up my own costs, including a retreat once a year, I would spend around $3500 per year. But so what? When I played a lot of sport, I easily spent that each year in annual memberships, gear, social gatherings etc. From my observations, the people that do attend “everything” generally tend to be able to afford it - either becuase they are retired, or becuase they are in a profession that gives them the disposable income (I am not discounting the prospect that there are those that may live above their means, but I don’t see that as the fault of Universal Medicine). UM is a very non-imposing organisation, as I said, and people are very free to do as they choose.

What exactly are Serge Benhayon's medical or scientific experiences, qualifications, degrees or other source(s) of expertise?


Serge Benhayon has no medical or scientific expertise as I know, nor any degree, qualifications etc. Having said that, he has made mention of an alternative healing degree that he had, but he did not name it as he does not practice it nor believe in its effectiveness, and has nothing to do with the modalities he teaches, so I don't know that that is too relevant. As I understand it, he has also studied acupuncture to enable him to use needles for the modality called Chakrapuncture. Other that that he makes no claim that I know of. He has never claimed in my experience to be a medical expert in the traditional sense. What I would categorise him is as is a Philosopher on life, and I don't think that he advertises himself as anything but.

Does he have differing views on medicine? Yes .
Is he anti-medicine - anything but. His viewpoint is simply that western medicine is a very important part of the whole in regards to medicine, but it is only a part. He is very respectfull of western medicine, but he is not the first person to point out that western medicine is very remedy focussed, understandably, and whilst I am sure more doctors would like to explore the concept of how we live contributes to ill health, they are overwhelmed currently with the plethora of medical conditions that are out there.


Has belief in the effectiveness of any of the "modalities" Benhayon or others charge for providing or teaching been supported by any kind of independent, scientific testing?


To date, no, at least not if full. As I stated in my previous post, the philosophy of Universal Medicine is a hypothesis if you like, but one that is being tested in the way people live their lives (for those who so choose). However, there are several medical practicioners from different fields who have seen the benefits of the modalities and the philosophy of UM who are starting to collect verifiable scientific data that is intended to be published in scientific journals once it is collated. There is, however, at this point, substantial anecdotal evidence from people who can attest the the way the modalities have assisted them to have greater vitality in their bodies, and have assisted them to live a more emotionally balanced life. There is no the internet, also, for example, testimonials from cancer patients who have received chakrapuncture as supporting treatment (NOT replacement treatment, for UM makes NO CLAIMS to cure cancer) for their chemotherapy, and have reported far less side effects than normal.

As I stated previously, as well, the insurer OAMPS went to great levels with its own investigation before agreeing to underwrite the insurance for the Universal Medicine Modalities. This I know is not evidence in itself that the modalities work, but it is evidence that there is a certain level of professional integrity with the modalities are practiced.

If Benhayon has no medical expertise and his methods have no basis in evidence, is it ethical to charge money for his teachings or services?

So we get to your crunch point. Absolutely, unless you are going to discount the whole of the alternative therapies industry as having any ethical right to exist. Unless you are going to discount the chiropractor association’s right to exist, which has scientific viewpoints on both sides of the fence as to its effectiveness. Even physiotherapy, as most of them will tell you is not founded on indisputable scientific evidence as of yet, particularly in regards to the effectivenss of magnetic treatments etc. Similarly, the modalities of UM are currently under scientific evaluation by several medical practicioners, but it is still in its infancy, as was once other “alternative” modalities. The fact is that the modalities are very gentle and non-imposing, and in the worst case they certainly do no harm to the client. If a client, however, used them as a replacement for seeing a qualified doctor, then I would see the harm and questions the ethics as such. However, unlike many alternative therapies, Universal Medicine also makes no claims to “heal”, or replace Western Medcine, but simply to provide a supporting role in the betterment of one’s health, and actively promotes western medicine. It costs around $70 for a session, or $35 for a chakrapuncture session, and there is no imposition upon the client to have follow up sessions etc. For that price, people can decide for themselves as to whether or not there is any perceived benefit. Personally, I find great benefit in the ability of the modalities in assisting me to arrest the momentums I may find myself in, and to stop and reassess what is really going on in the body, and to that extent, I personally book a session in every couple of months. I also, however, get regulary medical checkups and see my dentist once a year.

To Pakaya,

I need some time to get the facts for you. I know most of them off hand, but need to confirm them for you
That's a rather long-winded way you've got of not answering the question, there. You'd do well in politics. or alt medicine. Oh, wait....
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Old 15th September 2012, 02:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by adam warburton View Post
... there will be many instances where I am not going to be able to use scientific fact to "defend" the philosophy of Universal Medicine, but where I can I will where possible. ... That hypothesis has yet to be proved or dis-proved in full by scientific fact, and won't be for a while yet. ...

This wall of text that reminds me of other alt.med modalities. Very much so, indeed.



Originally Posted by adam warburton View Post

To Pakaya,

I need some time to get the facts for you. I know most of them off hand, but need to confirm them for you
You need time to get the facts to answer these questions:

Quote:
Are you a physician?
Which modalities of Universal Medicine are you authorised to practise and how much have you paid for your training all in all?
And how many hours of course work and practices before getting your certificates?
Granted, the third question is abominably ill-written.
It should be- how many hours of course work and practices did you undergo before getting your certificates?



Originally Posted by jimfish View Post
It's the one constant I've seen regarding Universal Medicine; the wall of text. It reminds me of Scientology, and how they'd have their members employed around the clock on Usenet's alt.scientology to counter every and all posts. Any forum topic, blog post or news article mentioning UM or Serge Benhayon will have a new user pop-up within hours or days of its creation, writing a screed very much like Adam's, hitting all the usual marks; "I was a former skeptic", "preconceived misconceptions about the word 'cult'", "Serge isn't in it for the money" etc....

The online actions of UM 'students' alone are enough to ring the cult warning alarm.
Thanks for the research, jimfish. I wonder if the students' time spent trolling the web translates into certificates?

Originally Posted by adam warburton View Post
...Unlike scientology, the views of universal medicine and its students are very easy to research, and unlike scientology there are no secret doctrines, or information that is kept for the select few.
Except the qualifications of its founder, for example?
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Old 15th September 2012, 03:11 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by adam warburton View Post
Hi Guys,

As promised in my last post, below are answers to nearly all of the direct questions that have been asked thus far. I have kept it as brief as I can...
Thank you! All too often, people promise to answer questions but never actually bother.

Of course, the reward for answering a question is more questions.

Quote:
Prixy misa - Is there any medical benefit to any of this?

The answer from my experience is yes.
Unfortunately, unless your experience involves randomised, placebo-controlled, double-blinded clinical trials, it turns out that it's not worth a whole lot. This is the hard lesson we've learned in conventional medicine - that individual opinions are usually wrong. It's only by setting aside our beliefs and biases that we've been able to make the enormous progress we have over the past century or so.

Quote:
As I have stated previously, the whole concept of the modalities is based on the the concept that we are ultimately responsible for our own healing, and have a great part to play in the nature of our health.
Well, yes. When I get sick, I see a doctor.

Quote:
The nature of life as we have come to know it encourages us to live in a way that is not in harmony with our body.
Sorry, that doesn't actually mean anything.

Quote:
Most of us constantly overrule our body with our mind, to the point where we no longer are even aware of early warning signs that our body is not coping with the decisions we are making. We eat food that is not right for us, we socialise with drugs (including alcohol) as a means to relax, we push the boundaries in sport and extracurricular endeavours, and we constantly feed the body excessive amounts of sugar and in many cases caffene to override the body natural level of exhaustion. Then, as a human race, when something goes wrong, we arrogantly want the medical system to “fix us”, give us a remedy, so that we can then return to the way we were living our life previously without questioning it. So, what if we have lost the ability to listen more carefully to our body.
So what you're saying is that we should eat less, exercise more, get a good night's sleep, and drink alcohol and coffee in moderation?

That's fine advice - but it doesn't form any basis for the rest of the claims.

Quote:
What all the modalities present through very simple techniques is an opportunity for people to slow down and connect to themselves and their body without the business of the mind.
How do these "modalities" do this, and how do you know?

Quote:
The modalities on their own, do not promise any “quick healing”, or “faith healing”, or miracles of any sort, and on their own they are useless if you do not incorporate what you felt in the session into your everyday life.
The thing is, real medicine really works. Antibiotics actually cure diseases and infections, and vaccines actually prevent illness. It doesn't matter what you believe, they still work.

What exactly do you have to offer, and how do you know that it works?

Quote:
For example, if in a massage session, you realise how actually tired and rundown you are, as many people do, then there in itself is an opportunity for you to question how you are living that so exhausts you.
So the massage itself is completely irrelevant?

Quote:
How did the modalities assist this? Just that, they assisted in helping me learn to re-connect with what was truly going on in the body.
Sorry, but that still doesn't mean anything.
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Old 15th September 2012, 04:24 AM   #32
asydhouse
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Originally Posted by adam warburton View Post
So we get to your crunch point. Absolutely,..... Unless you are going to discount the chiropractor association’s right to exist, which has scientific viewpoints on both sides of the fence as to its effectiveness. Even physiotherapy, as most of them will tell you is not founded on indisputable scientific evidence as of yet, particularly in regards to the effectivenss of magnetic treatments etc.
Fail!

I don't think you know what being skeptical means. I suspected your grasp of science was limited when you tried the old "Copernicus and Einstein were outside of mainstream science for years until science caught up" bit of misdirection. Both of those gentlemen worked logically and in steadfast consistency with the observational methods and joined up thinking which led them to draw reasonable, scientifically sound and testable hypotheses which fit with the actualities of the universe we are living in. Einstein's hypothesis was shown to be correct very soon after publication, by observation of effects his hypothesis had predicted. In the case of Copernicus, it was the Catholic church which stood in the way of acceptance, not the demonstrable truth to practitioners of science at the time.

So that appeal to ignorance of the actual processes in the history of science did you no favours, and now this appeal to the supposed uncertainty over the effectiveness of chiropractic shows that you have no grasp of either current knowledge about their absurd claims, or even of the functioning of human physiology. The second of the highlighted passages in the quote above shows that you are also ignorant of the physics and biology of magnetism, and also of the state of medical knowledge about magnetism in the body. There is no reason to mention magnetic "therapy" with regard to medicine, and if you think someone is researching it, then whoever they are can not be actual scientists. If they are doctors, then they are ignorant... unfortunately doctors are not trained as scientists, and many are capable of harbouring uncorrect ideas about scientific knowledge and methods.

If you were a sceptic, you would know that those two highlighted passages are like a neon sign saying " I don't know what I'm talking about."

I was quite on your side until that last hurdle, and you fell spectacularly. I agree with all your suggestions that it is necessary to get the whole picture before jumping to conclusions: very well put, if a bit longwinded (but then, who am I to talk?). Unfortunately, you seem to be unable to draw a distinction between the parts of the picture that are real, and the parts that are pure propaganda on the part of apologists for woo.... a camp into which you have just strayed, betraying the true home from which you speak.

When you get to the top rung on the ladder, it's time to stop climbing.
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Old 15th September 2012, 06:04 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by adam warburton View Post
Hi Guys,

As promised in my last post, below are answers to nearly all of the direct questions that have been asked thus far. I have kept it as brief as I can...
If that's as brief as you can, I'd hate to see the long version. But as Pixymisa, said, thanks for answering the questions at all, it's a refreshing change from many of our usual promoters of alternative "medicine"

Also I'm definitely a skeptic and not a cynic, in that if you show me evidence I will change my mind. However being a skeptic I won't change my mind without said evidence. That's what skepticism is - fixing beliefs based on the evidence and only on the evidence. A "philosophy of life" is not evidence.

Quote:
Is it correct that some people have spent around $10 000 per year on "Universal Medicine" training or products?

Yes, I suppose if you look at some people, they might do that easily, with a retreat to Vietnam once a year included in that. But it is not necessary, and in no way encouraged that I can see. Personally, I have been attending courses etc for around 6 years, but don't spend any where near that, so as you can see, there is no compulsion to do so. Lectures start at $5 for a Friday night, and $15 for a 3 hour group presentation on Saturday around once a month, with full day lectures costing around $130 or near enough. The modality courses are significantly more expensive if you want to attend them all.
$130 is not a small amount of money, and it does seem a little inconsistent that you are clear and specific about the cheap items on the menu, but you get vague when it comes to the cost of the "modality courses". They must not be cheap.

Quote:
I suppose if I added up my own costs, including a retreat once a year, I would spend around $3500 per year. But so what? When I played a lot of sport, I easily spent that each year in annual memberships, gear, social gatherings etc.
It's true that $10 000 per year is not a totally outrageous amount for an adult to spend in a year on a hobby. However I do have very different feelings about people paying money for sport on one hand, and people being defrauded on the other. If people are paying for training in "modalities" whose effectiveness is unsupported and highly likely to be imaginary then I feel they are being ripped off, not that they are spending money on a legitimate hobby.

Quote:
What exactly are Serge Benhayon's medical or scientific experiences, qualifications, degrees or other source(s) of expertise?


Serge Benhayon has no medical or scientific expertise as I know, nor any degree, qualifications etc.
Isn't there a bit of a problem with someone with no medical or scientific expertise selling medical discoveries they claim to have made? I tend to think that's a problem.

Quote:
As I stated previously, as well, the insurer OAMPS went to great levels with its own investigation before agreeing to underwrite the insurance for the Universal Medicine Modalities. This I know is not evidence in itself that the modalities work, but it is evidence that there is a certain level of professional integrity with the modalities are practiced.
It means you aren't doing anything dangerous. As you say, that says absolutely nothing about whether the products and services being charged for actually do anything.

Quote:
If Benhayon has no medical expertise and his methods have no basis in evidence, is it ethical to charge money for his teachings or services?

So we get to your crunch point. Absolutely, unless you are going to discount the whole of the alternative therapies industry as having any ethical right to exist.
Well yes, that's exactly what I do discount. Charging money for medical services which have either not been proven to work, or which have been proven not to work, is not ethical in my view. Hence no industry which depends on doing so has any ethical right to exist in my view.

There's a bit of snark famous in academia which goes something like this: "Parts of this work are original, and parts of this work are good. However the parts that are good are not original, and the parts which are original are not good". It seems to me that's a fair summary of this Benhayon guy's "philosophy of life".

It is neither original nor particularly insightful to tell people to eat five serves of veggies, two serves of fruit, get a good night's sleep and exercise moderation with drugs like alcohol and caffeine. I can tell you to do that and I don't need any "new philosophy of life" to back it up.

The original stuff like "Esoteric Breast Massage" and "chakrapuncture" (no doubt to be followed by aromeopathy and reikiridology) has no basis in science, medicine, research or anything else as far as I can tell.

So what here is worth tens of thousands of dollars? Common-sense health advice you can get for free from any number of government services or charities (actual charities, not for-profit alt-med organisations like UM) is not worth tens of thousands of dollars. There's no evidence the mishmash of alt-med "modalities" does anything, and you've admitted that training in the "modalities" is the real cash cow.

So far it looks not very much like a cult but very much like a multi-million dollar scam.

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Old 14th March 2013, 01:12 AM   #34
Darkly Venus
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Hi Randians,

I've been running a blog for the past 6 months exposing the bogus practices of Australian cult 'Universal Medicine', led by ex-bankrupt tennis coach and unqualified, self styled 'healer', Serge Benhayon.

Yes, he reckoned he was Da Vinci reincarnated until challenged by journalists. He was also Imhotep (every 2nd cult leader, including Aum Shinrikyo's Shoko Asahara, reckons they were Imhotep), Pythagoras (although Serge probably can't spell it) and Edwardian era theosophist, Alice Bailey.

He has told followers and yes I have it on audio, that he received his divine calling - in the form of the 'sweetest most lovely voices' - while sitting on the toilet.

One might surmise Benhayon is taking the piss.

Esoteric Breast Massage is but one of the perverted yet profitable piss takes Universal Medicine markets as 'healing'. His 25 year old unqualified son, Curtis, practices Esoteric Uterus Massage, (screenshots of advertising available) but to date the cult is rather sheepish about answering questions on what that involves...

The cult following primarily consists of women, often recruited via supposed women's health presentations and therapies such as EBM. EBMs are only performed by women practitioners, but most have no formal therapy qualifications. That doesn't stop them from taking a full gynaecological history from their victims, as well as asking them about 'major life events'. These unqualified invasions of privacy are designed to target the women's vulnerabilities, such as gyne disorders, abortions and any experience of sexual abuse.

Typical of cults, the practitioners then exploit their clients, in this case by indoctrinating them with body negative and misandrist programming. Generally the women are told they have gyne or breast disorders because men are bastards and the women are victims of male abuse. They are told their experiences of being objectified or abused by men have left negative energetic imposts in their breasts, which can only be 'cleared' by EBM practitioners trained by UM and who have the utmost energetic integrity and other horse doo doo.

They are then told they need to keep coming back, and are roped into other 'Esoteric' therapies - all invented by Pervey Uncle Serge, as well as useless products like laminated clearing symbol cards, which are supposed to removed evil energy from the environment (price range $5 to $140 and UGLY).

In all EBM publicity pervey Serge vehemently asserts he has never performed an Esoteric Breast Massage! Even when demonstrating it to the practitioners, they're at pains to assure us he did a simulation above his wife's clothes. (The wife - a former tennis student - who moved into his home when she was 13 years old. Yup.)

However, we have recently been given published photographic evidence from a Sacred Esoteric Healing workshop manual of Serge with his hand on a young woman's genitals. The technique is called 'Deeper Femaleness' and it is said to be a 'healing' technique for 'rape' and sexual dysfunction.

The images have been submitted to the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission. I have also submitted a number of other complaints, but so far none have been acted upon. It appears the HCCC is disinclined to prohibit practitioners until someone comes forward saying they've been assaulted, or we produce a corpse.

Anyway, the Universal Medicine cult is as bad as you can believe, and probably worse.

Anyway all info is on my blog. Not sure if admin here will let me (newby) post a link. I'll try, but if it doesn't come up, Google Universal Medicine Accountability Wordpress. (We had a Google blogger blog, but it was shut down as in censored at the request of the cult and without a court order.)

I have just posted the first in a series of 3 posts about Esoteric Breast Massage - therapeutic abuse.

And by the way, as for the endorsement of mainstream medical doctors, there are exactly six and they are named on the naming names page of universalmedicineaccountability.wordpress.com

Australian regulator AHPRA is currently assessing complaints about five of them.
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Old 14th March 2013, 02:07 AM   #35
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Hello Darkly Venus and thank you for your highly informative post.

Serge Benhayon's activities re EBM and other intimate massages are very familiar to me from other cults who use the same MO to groom and brainwash (for want of a better word) young women in preparation for a life of "sacred prostitution".

The typical strategy is to combine intrusive intimate massage as a form of healing to "burn bad karma", "awaken femininity", "activate chakras" and even to destroy invisible psychic worm infestations in the reproductive organs generated by past traumatic sexual experiences (yes really).

The indoctrination process is usually conducted by females in various "women's groups" that teach that women have become too identified with men in the modern world and lost touch with their femininity. The concept of "femininity" in these cults is typically based on the idea that women should be more "feminine" (translate as submissive / playful) and that once she has attained a proper feminine state, cleansed of bad karma, sluggish chakras and psychic worms she will be in a constant state of bliss (translate sexual excitement).

Once a woman is conditioned to accept these invasive "treatments" and deranged concepts about femininity she is considered "awakened" or "open" and thus knows to true meaning and purpose of her life - usually to save the world by performing "chakra activations" on men (I believe generally referred to as a "rub and tug" in Australia) and thus generating revenue for the cult in the process.

I suppose I am wondering whether you know whether any of the females in the cult work in the sex industry?
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Old 14th March 2013, 02:07 AM   #36
Brainache
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Originally Posted by Darkly Venus View Post
Hi Randians,

...
He has told followers and yes I have it on audio, that he received his divine calling - in the form of the 'sweetest most lovely voices' - while sitting on the toilet.

One might surmise Benhayon is taking the piss.

...
Since he was sitting down, I'd say he was full of ****...

But seriously, Welcome Darkly Venus. Hell of a first post! I hope you stick around.
Cheers.
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Old 14th March 2013, 03:11 AM   #37
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Hmmm ... that clinic is not far from me. If I had the funds I would go and be a guinea pig (tell lies about my sexual history etc) to see the outcome. I can't afford it just now, but if I can in future, I will - and will report back.

Off to look at DV's site (unfortunate nick shortening - reminds me of my 1st marriage which involved domestic violence).
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Old 14th March 2013, 04:49 AM   #38
Sideroxylon
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Welcome, Darkly Venus.
This looks like your website:
http://universalmedicineaccountability.wordpress.com/
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Old 14th March 2013, 04:55 AM   #39
dafydd
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Originally Posted by Darkly Venus View Post
Hi Randians,

I've been running a blog for the past 6 months exposing the bogus practices of Australian cult 'Universal Medicine', led by ex-bankrupt tennis coach and unqualified, self styled 'healer', Serge Benhayon.

Yes, he reckoned he was Da Vinci reincarnated until challenged by journalists. He was also Imhotep (every 2nd cult leader, including Aum Shinrikyo's Shoko Asahara, reckons they were Imhotep), Pythagoras (although Serge probably can't spell it) and Edwardian era theosophist, Alice Bailey.

He has told followers and yes I have it on audio, that he received his divine calling - in the form of the 'sweetest most lovely voices' - while sitting on the toilet.

One might surmise Benhayon is taking the piss.

Esoteric Breast Massage is but one of the perverted yet profitable piss takes Universal Medicine markets as 'healing'. His 25 year old unqualified son, Curtis, practices Esoteric Uterus Massage, (screenshots of advertising available) but to date the cult is rather sheepish about answering questions on what that involves...

The cult following primarily consists of women, often recruited via supposed women's health presentations and therapies such as EBM. EBMs are only performed by women practitioners, but most have no formal therapy qualifications. That doesn't stop them from taking a full gynaecological history from their victims, as well as asking them about 'major life events'. These unqualified invasions of privacy are designed to target the women's vulnerabilities, such as gyne disorders, abortions and any experience of sexual abuse.

Typical of cults, the practitioners then exploit their clients, in this case by indoctrinating them with body negative and misandrist programming. Generally the women are told they have gyne or breast disorders because men are bastards and the women are victims of male abuse. They are told their experiences of being objectified or abused by men have left negative energetic imposts in their breasts, which can only be 'cleared' by EBM practitioners trained by UM and who have the utmost energetic integrity and other horse doo doo.

They are then told they need to keep coming back, and are roped into other 'Esoteric' therapies - all invented by Pervey Uncle Serge, as well as useless products like laminated clearing symbol cards, which are supposed to removed evil energy from the environment (price range $5 to $140 and UGLY).

In all EBM publicity pervey Serge vehemently asserts he has never performed an Esoteric Breast Massage! Even when demonstrating it to the practitioners, they're at pains to assure us he did a simulation above his wife's clothes. (The wife - a former tennis student - who moved into his home when she was 13 years old. Yup.)

However, we have recently been given published photographic evidence from a Sacred Esoteric Healing workshop manual of Serge with his hand on a young woman's genitals. The technique is called 'Deeper Femaleness' and it is said to be a 'healing' technique for 'rape' and sexual dysfunction.

The images have been submitted to the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission. I have also submitted a number of other complaints, but so far none have been acted upon. It appears the HCCC is disinclined to prohibit practitioners until someone comes forward saying they've been assaulted, or we produce a corpse.

Anyway, the Universal Medicine cult is as bad as you can believe, and probably worse.

Anyway all info is on my blog. Not sure if admin here will let me (newby) post a link. I'll try, but if it doesn't come up, Google Universal Medicine Accountability Wordpress. (We had a Google blogger blog, but it was shut down as in censored at the request of the cult and without a court order.)

I have just posted the first in a series of 3 posts about Esoteric Breast Massage - therapeutic abuse.

And by the way, as for the endorsement of mainstream medical doctors, there are exactly six and they are named on the naming names page of universalmedicineaccountability.wordpress.com

Australian regulator AHPRA is currently assessing complaints about five of them.
Thanks for that. The truth instead of cult propaganda.
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Old 14th March 2013, 04:57 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Darkly Venus View Post
Yes, he reckoned he was Da Vinci reincarnated until challenged by journalists. He was also Imhotep (every 2nd cult leader, including Aum Shinrikyo's Shoko Asahara, reckons they were Imhotep), Pythagoras (although Serge probably can't spell it) and Edwardian era theosophist, Alice Bailey.
Geez, those people get reincarnated a lot. For some reason, I'm the only person I know who's the reincarnation of 27 generations of dirt-poor Chinese peasants, all called Zhang.

And welcome to the forums. Usually when a newcomer's first post is lengthy, it's also full of crap, but you're a refreshing exception.
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Last edited by timhau; 14th March 2013 at 05:00 AM.
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