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Old 23rd January 2017, 06:22 AM   #441
Old coarse guy
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http://www.ctbuh.org/HighRiseInfo/Ta...B/Default.aspx

Perhaps this may help you out in terms of the statement by the CTBUH that this building had "17 storeys above ground". I note that elsewhere they give no height for the building.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 06:30 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
So that would make 12/13 storeys above the height of the mall
http://cnnwire.images.worldnow.com/i...12945115_G.jpg

Can we agree on that ?

ETA Is anyone still claiming that this is a 17 storey building ?
No it is 16 stories, and appears to be 160Ft. Tall.

52 meters tall.

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd January 2017 at 08:22 AM. Reason: hotlinked picture in quote
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Old 23rd January 2017, 06:33 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
No it is 16 stories, and appears to be 160Ft. Tall.

52 meters tall.
Interesting. Do you have a source for that ?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 06:40 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Interesting. Do you have a source for that ?
While we're at it, what's your source for 42m?

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Old 23rd January 2017, 06:49 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Interesting. Do you have a source for that ?
The picture you posted is the source, if you look at the side of the building there is a pattern of spaces on the edge that can be used to determine building height.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 06:50 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
While we're at it, what's your source for 42m?

Dave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasco_Building "Roof 42.0 m (138 ft)"
http://en.mehrnews.com/news/122852/R...ilding-tragedy Built and opened in 1962 in Iran, Plasco Building was for some years the tallest construction of the city with a height of 42 meters

The sites that I originally checked on came from a search using the native language. Happy to provide more references for you if you need them.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 06:57 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
The picture you posted is the source, if you look at the side of the building there is a pattern of spaces on the edge that can be used to determine building height.
So it should be easy enough for you to go get a source that agrees with you then. Find me just one source that agrees with you. 42m is admittedly not making any sense whatsoever, but I am quite sure that the Iranians would have measured the height of Tehran's then tallest building accurately.

I do not want to post sites that are in foreign language, but a search for "ساختمان پلاسکو" should bring up Iranian sources for you if that helps.

ETA I got the in quotes writing from wikipedia as the persian for "plasco building"

Last edited by Old coarse guy; 23rd January 2017 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:00 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasco_Building "Roof 42.0 m (138 ft)"
http://en.mehrnews.com/news/122852/R...ilding-tragedy Built and opened in 1962 in Iran, Plasco Building was for some years the tallest construction of the city with a height of 42 meters

The sites that I originally checked on came from a search using the native language. Happy to provide more references for you if you need them.
Yet the photos clearly show the building to be 160ft.
The cross bracing on the photo appears to be ten feet apart, and sixteen stories of it.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:04 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Yet the photos clearly show the building to be 160ft.
The cross bracing on the photo appears to be ten feet apart, and sixteen stories of it.
You need a source for this. After all, everyone else says 42m. Just find me ONE source that says ANYTHING OTHER than 42m, apart from what you think it appears to be. I am not saying you're wrong, but I cannot find a source that agrees with you. Can you ?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:05 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
There are two parts to the building, the Mall and the Tower. Those pictures are obviously of a Shopping Mall we can see from the ground to the roof, it's nowhere near the height of the tower.
Google image search suggests the large front entrance led into the mall which then extended out of the back of the building. Third photo from the bottom of this page http://shahrefarang.com/en/plasco-tehran/ shows the rear of the building and firefighters using a hose from the roof of the mall.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:13 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
You need a source for this. After all, everyone else says 42m. Just find me ONE source that says ANYTHING OTHER than 42m, apart from what you think it appears to be. I am not saying you're wrong, but I cannot find a source that agrees with you. Can you ?
You provided the source the photo, the diagonal bracing is uniformly placed, there can be no doubt about the diagonal bracing.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:13 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Google image search suggests the large front entrance led into the mall which then extended out of the back of the building. Third photo from the bottom of this page http://shahrefarang.com/en/plasco-tehran/ shows the rear of the building and firefighters using a hose from the roof of the mall.
This is a persian site, the bottom picture shows exactly the layout of the mall.
http://footofan.com/?p=27827

ETA Zoom in to the bottom RHS of the building.

Last edited by Old coarse guy; 23rd January 2017 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:16 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
You provided the source the photo, the diagonal bracing is uniformly placed, there can be no doubt about the diagonal bracing.
You're guessing. Show me detail of what you mean with some sort of methodology. Even then, what makes you think that wikipedia, and every Iranian source that I can find all state 42m in error ?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:19 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Because he corrected himself from 17 to 15 storeys, as you can hear at around 30s into the video that I posted - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IkiLxdn-5Q
Remember, the one that you were unaware of a few hours ago.
He doesn't explain the significance of that height. Any significance you attribute to it is purely your interpretation.


Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
It could well be yes. Do you have a link to an erratum statement from NIST for that?
None is needed, as it's a true statement that no building over 15 stories had collapsed due to fire, as Sunder said, even if he was referring to the definition of high rise and misspoke.


Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
No, the statement mentions buildings that are over 15 storeys high.
No, this statement does not mention "over 15 storeys" anywhere. It mentions high rises:
WHEREAS, prior to and since September 11, 2001, no steel-framed high-rise has ever suffered a total collapse, except buildings demolished through the procedure known as controlled demolition
(bolding mine). You refuse to acknowledge that the statement is incorrect as stated, even if it's painfully obvious.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:19 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
You need a source for this. After all, everyone else says 42m. Just find me ONE source that says ANYTHING OTHER than 42m, apart from what you think it appears to be. I am not saying you're wrong, but I cannot find a source that agrees with you. Can you ?
YOU need to outline EXACTLY what it is you are trying to say about the issue, why it matters.
As far as the depth of the underground, again, why does it matter?

If it isn't 17 storeys, fact remains it was reported as 17 storeys by Iranian officials and that was repeated by news agencies.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:22 AM   #456
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Has anybody zoomed into the pic as I suggested yet ?
http://footofan.com/?p=27827
Bottom picture, bottom RHS of the building.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:23 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
http://danamotor.ir/Tehran_Plasco_Mall_2009.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g3...7/image046.jpg

Do these storeys look like 8.1ft to anyone ?
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Those are not pictures of the tower, they are the Mall next to it.
Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Ok, that is making more sense to me.
You might have noticed the skylight in the photo and deduced that this was not part of the tower.

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd January 2017 at 08:24 AM. Reason: hotlinked picture in quote
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:24 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
You might have noticed the skylight in the photo and deduced that this was not part of the tower.
It is looking straight into the bottom storeys of the tower. The basement.

ETA sorry, entrance to. Can you locate the elevator ?

Last edited by Old coarse guy; 23rd January 2017 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:26 AM   #459
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I reiterate:
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
...AE911T reject the obvious driver of collapse, FIRE, in favour of utter and pure unadultered fiction.
That is of course unless there is some evidence for explosives other than "could'a been.
The fact that it collapsed is NOT evidence of CD, no matter how much someone wants to push that meme.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:29 AM   #460
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http://footofan.com/?p=27827
Apologies for repetition here. Has anyone else zoomed into the bottom RHS of the building in the bottom pic yet ?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:30 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
It is looking straight into the bottom storeys of the tower. The basement.

ETA sorry, entrance to. Can you locate the elevator ?
What does that have to do with my observation that the existence of a skylight indicates that this is not a picture taken within the tower(unless for some odd reason the shopping mall pictured was on the top floors of the structure)

Since it is not a picture of the interior of the tower, and it's the tower that collapsed, you might as well have posted a picture of Mall of America for all the relevance it has.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:31 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
http://footofan.com/?p=27827
Apologies for repetition here. Has anyone else zoomed into the bottom RHS of the building in the bottom pic yet ?
It's grainy at original resolution, what are we supposed to see if you zoom in?
Why is it important?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:32 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
What does that have to do with my observation that the existence of a skylight indicates that this is not a picture taken within the tower(unless for some odd reason the shopping mall pictured was on the top floors of the structure)

Since it is not a picture of the interior of the tower, and it's the tower that collapsed, you might as well have posted a picture of Mall of America for all the relevance it has.
I am comfortable with you thinking that.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:33 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I am comfortable with you thinking that.
I am comfortable with you acknowledging that the pics are not relevant at all in this discussion, thanks.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:35 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
I am comfortable with you acknowledging that the pics are not relevant at all in this discussion, thanks.
Not interested Jaydee.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:35 AM   #466
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I don't see how to zoom in, but are you referring to the collapsed canopy behind the building with the blue roof? There seems to be a lot of debris on it, and there may be damage to the wall of the building above there too. It's hard to make out the detail.

I guess the trail of water around the carpark indicates there was some firefighting vehicle working around there before the picture was taken.

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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:38 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I don't see how to zoom in, but are you referring to the collapsed canopy behind the building with the blue roof? There seems to be a lot of debris on it, and there may be damage to the wall of the building above there too. It's hard to make out the detail.
Some serious localised structural damage to the building as far as I can see.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:40 AM   #468
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Bump for OCG, to ensure he doesn't miss my post.

Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Because he corrected himself from 17 to 15 storeys, as you can hear at around 30s into the video that I posted - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IkiLxdn-5Q
Remember, the one that you were unaware of a few hours ago.
He doesn't explain the significance of that height. Any significance you attribute to it is purely your interpretation.


Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
It could well be yes. Do you have a link to an erratum statement from NIST for that?
None is needed, as it's a true statement that no building over 15 stories had collapsed due to fire, as Sunder said, even if he was referring to the definition of high rise and misspoke.


Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
No, the statement mentions buildings that are over 15 storeys high.
No, this statement does not mention "over 15 storeys" anywhere. It mentions high rises:
WHEREAS, prior to and since September 11, 2001, no steel-framed high-rise has ever suffered a total collapse, except buildings demolished through the procedure known as controlled demolition
(bolding mine). You refuse to acknowledge that the statement is incorrect as stated, even if it's painfully obvious.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:41 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
You're guessing. Show me detail of what you mean with some sort of methodology. Even then, what makes you think that wikipedia, and every Iranian source that I can find all state 42m in error ?
The diagonal bracing is ten feet apart, please explain to me how sixteen stories of diagonal
Bracing 10ft apart does not equal 160 Ft. 52 meters?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:43 AM   #470
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Shyam Sunder's exact quote in discussing the collapse of 7 WTC was:

"This is the first time that we are aware of that a building over 15 stories tall has collapsed primarily due to fires."

A true statement back those many years ago, not sure what relevance it has to this discussion. If anyone would like to enlighten us as to the relevance then have at it.

I think we can all agree that Plasco was at least 15, possibly 17 stories tall and that fire doesn't really care about the difference.

I think we can also all agree that the building was on fire, and that it collapsed during that fire, making fire the only plausible proximate cause for its collapse.

Given that, what have the last 5-6 pages been about anyway?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:44 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Bump for OCG, to ensure he doesn't miss my post.
I will respond to this later.
Have you checked the pic out yet?
http://footofan.com/?p=27827
Bottom RHS of the building as you're looking at it. Collapsed canopy from debris, and structural damage.
Interested in your opinion of it.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:44 AM   #472
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New guy arguing irrelevant minutiae?

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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:45 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Some serious localised structural damage to the building as far as I can see.
It's rather a mess, but we can't tell if it's related to the fire, or if it was part of some building work that was unrelated. The fire seems to be mainly in the upper floors and there's no smoke or dust from around the collapsed canopy to indicate it just fell.

It's very curious, but it's not obvious what we're looking at there.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 07:48 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
I think we can all agree that Plasco was at least 15, possibly 17 stories tall and that fire doesn't really care about the difference.
I count sixteen plus the penthouse.

Quote:
I think we can also all agree that the building was on fire, and that it collapsed during that fire, making fire the only plausible proximate cause for its collapse.
Yes.

Quote:
Given that, what have the last 5-6 pages been about anyway?
Everyone needs a hobby, I guess.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:01 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
New guy arguing irrelevant minutiae?

Old story, first he requires everyone here to agree with his interpretations and THEN he can tell us why it makes any difference at all.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:04 AM   #476
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delete

Last edited by jaydeehess; 23rd January 2017 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:04 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by Tony Szamboti View Post
No analysis to date has shown WTC 7's collapse could have been initiated by fire. NIST's and ARUP's analyses have been shown to be invalid due to errors and omissions and WAI has unsupported extreme temperature claims.

Your claiming otherwise is just that.....an unsupported claim, that is not worth arguing in lieu of the dearth of explanatory power of each analysis where they fail to explain the free fall acceleration of the building observed, which clearly points to controlled demolition as the cause of collapse.
Falling back on bald assertions, just like always. Your extreme temperature claims were based on the clearly erroneous Korol paper that you have spent 3+ weeks avoiding. And your claims that NIST and ARUP's analyses have been shown "invalid" are nothing more than hollow words you repeat and repeat and repeat as if somehow that makes them true, even though I've already repeatedly demonstrated all such claims you have made are based on your fundamental errors in improperly conflating dissimilar simulations or attempting to use your own laughably incomplete "models" in a hamfisted way to prove something that is far beyond their scope. The claim against ARUP is especially sad because it relies on you deliberately inflating Nordenson's floor collapse propagation calculations with ARUP's floor failure initiation model. It's incredibly dishonest.

You tried to pretend in the other thread that I was the one who avoids specifics, and yet here you go again--baldly asserting your way to your preferred conclusion despite the specifics being aligned against your tired claims.

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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:08 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Not interested Jaydee.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:10 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I will respond to this later.
Have you checked the pic out yet?
http://footofan.com/?p=27827
Bottom RHS of the building as you're looking at it. Collapsed canopy from debris, and structural damage.
Interested in your opinion of it.
It looks like the basement gave way. Can't say much more. I don't know for how long it's been like that.

ETA: Or what Jack said.

Last edited by pgimeno; 23rd January 2017 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:19 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
It looks like the basement gave way. Can't say much more. I don't know for how long it's been like that.

ETA: Or what Jack said.
ahhh, I see what is being discussed now.

Any pics from the day before? Is there any evidence this occurred on the day of the fires?
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