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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:24 AM   #481
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I am impressed with the fire fighting vehicles that Tehran possess.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:26 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
The sites that I originally checked on came from a search using the native language. Happy to provide more references for you if you need them.
Are any of them anything other than Wikipedia or a news media source that quite possibly got the number from Wikipedia? These really aren't definitive enough sources to get one's knickers in a twist about. It seems fairly clear that the building has about 16 storeys, and therefore that 42m looks a bit low for the overall height; until we get a better number from a primary source I don't see the problem with viewing that 42m highly critically, particularly since we can see from photographs that the building had about 16 storeys.

Dave

ETA: And incidentally, you're arguing that all these sources got the number of storeys wrong, which they could have easily have found out just by looking at the building, but must be right about the height, which they couldn't have. Isn't it more likely that if they couldn't get the number of storeys right then they couldn't get the height right either?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:30 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
It looks like the basement gave way. Can't say much more. I don't know for how long it's been like that.

ETA: Or what Jack said.
That is 3 floors up from ground, as established by the mall pic that I posted looking from the tower, which formed part of the shopping area at the lower levels.
It is pretty obvious to me that there is serious structural damage to the lower building that is separate and distant from the fires. This isn't a gas cylinder or anything to do that kind of damage, and it isn't damage from above.
Looks like a lot of water there too.

ETA for ground, read foundation level
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Old 23rd January 2017, 08:39 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
ahhh, I see what is being discussed now.

Any pics from the day before? Is there any evidence this occurred on the day of the fires?
https://youtu.be/2B6Lusn-HLM?t=94 The last portion of this video appears to have been shot inside the mall after the fire started.

The damage, if that's what it is, which dropped debris onto the canopy would be from about the level that the photographer is standing, at the back of the shop units ahead and to his left. There doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary down at the mall level at this stage, just the smoke visible through the skylight from the fire many storeys above.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 09:16 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
That is 3 floors up from ground, as established by the mall pic that I posted looking from the tower, which formed part of the shopping area at the lower levels.
It is pretty obvious to me that there is serious structural damage to the lower building that is separate and distant from the fires. This isn't a gas cylinder or anything to do that kind of damage, and it isn't damage from above.
Looks like a lot of water there too.

ETA for ground, read foundation level
It's smaller than the damage WTC7's SW corner suffered, if that matters. If it's serious, then WTC7's was even more serious.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 09:25 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Are any of them anything other than Wikipedia or a news media source that quite possibly got the number from Wikipedia?
Especially given that the Wikipedia article was created 4 days ago, clearly in response to the fire. The only source I've found from before the day of the fire stating that the building is 42m tall is another wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ings_in_Tehran

That article quotes its source of information on the Plasco Building as coming from http://www.donya-e-eqtesad.com/news/752440/, however that article doesn't say anything about the Plasco Building's height. It only states that it is/was a 16-story building.

The news stories that are reporting the height as 42m are probably getting that number from the Wikipedia article. As others have pointed out it doesn't make sense that the floors would only be ~8.5 ft. tall.

Is there another source that dates *before* Jan 19 that states the height at 42m?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 09:43 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
... I guess the trail of water around the carpark indicates there was some firefighting vehicle working around there before the picture was taken.
Just found a photo showing a ladder extended from a fire engine in the car park.
https://youtu.be/2B6Lusn-HLM?t=94

The grainy view on Google Earth shows the carpark canopy intact, so whatever happened to it, it wasn't just left lying dilapidated for years.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 09:56 AM   #488
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This would be looking toward the tower with the damage at the far left
http://www.fardanews.com/files/fa/ne...460954_350.jpg
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Old 23rd January 2017, 10:07 AM   #489
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Fire in Plasco tower
Not sure if this photo had been posted here yet.

and another showing at least six floors involved

Not small fires

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Old 23rd January 2017, 10:55 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Fire in Plasco tower
Not sure if this photo had been posted here yet.

and another showing at least six floors involved

Not small fires
This one shows the damaged rear corner early on in the fire. Only down as far as the 4th floor (Mall roof is level with 6th) but no visible damage. No spray from the fire hose either.

While this one is later and shows the same corner wall wetted by the firehose, and you can see the hose jet spraying the upper floors. Again it only shows down to the 4th floor, but does the grille (or is it the AC unit) on the end window look awry?

The aerial shot comes later (the fire engine has left the carpark) and appears to show some kind of kink or crease in the edge of the canopy, just at the point where it starts to detach from the wall. I wonder if the fire engine hoist hit it in their rush to redeploy to another side of the building, and if that's what broke the South end of the canopy off the building.

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Old 23rd January 2017, 11:54 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Tony Szamboti View Post
No analysis to date has shown WTC 7's collapse could have been initiated by fire. NIST's and ARUP's analyses have been shown to be invalid due to errors and omissions and WAI has unsupported extreme temperature claims.

Your claiming otherwise is just that.....an unsupported claim, that is not worth arguing in lieu of the dearth of explanatory power of each analysis where they fail to explain the free fall acceleration of the building observed, which clearly points to controlled demolition as the cause of collapse.
Free fall is not evidence for controlled demolition
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Old 23rd January 2017, 12:14 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
The CTBUH have a specific criteria for calculating height Vs Storeys.
I am getting 60, 70 and 80m for the 3 various types of buildings at 17 storeys. There is a problem there one way or the other. My source for 42m has not been found to be contradicted. Yet, there are MANY sources that state the storey count as being less than 17. I am looking for potential issues with this building. Does that not strike you as an issue ?

ETA, and no, I am not claiming that anyone removed a storey or two of the building - far from it.
Um ... before alien lizard men fly away with one floor have you considered this?

http://smallandeleganthotels.com/blo...an-hotel-room#

Quote:
4. The first floor. When you think of the first floor of a hotel, you likely think of the ground floor where you enter the hotel. However, in Europe, the first floor is often the first floor off of ground level or what Americans would call the second floor. Keep this in mind when booking your hotel room or trying to find your room.


Also, did you look up the Tehran building codes because that could clear a few things up-- like what's the max. allowable space between floors.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 01:27 PM   #493
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The photo below shows the basement level with the water/fountains. Above the basement is the floor that can be accessed from street level. That first floor level looks like it can fit two floors.
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Pla...420723!6m1!1e1

The photo below shows the gated entrance to the Plasco building into the mall. I see shops on the floor another row of windows over the top which might be a second level?
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Pla...420723!6m1!1e1

The photo below shows the basement/water/fountain level and the first floor street level above it. Notice the secondary level over the store with mannequins in the window to the left of the photo. Two levels?
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Pla...420723!6m1!1e1

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Old 23rd January 2017, 01:39 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
The photo below shows the basement level with the water/fountains. Above the basement is the floor that can be accessed from street level. That first floor level looks like it can fit two floors.
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Pla...420723!6m1!1e1

The photo below shows the gated entrance to the Plasco building into the mall. I see shops on the floor another row of windows over the top which might be a second level?
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Pla...420723!6m1!1e1

The photo below shows the basement/water/fountain level and the first floor street level above it. Notice the secondary level over the store with mannequins in the window to the left of the photo. Two levels?
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Pla...420723!6m1!1e1
I believe that 2nd photo is from the opposite end to the tower but I am not 100% sure. This photograph shows the mall with the firefighters making their way toward the tower from that end.
http://www.fardanews.com/files/fa/ne...460954_350.jpg
I was under the impression that the lower floors and basement of the tower formed the opposite end of the mall, and had 3 storeys of basement, as per the earlier photos that I posted.
I believe that when there was talk of firefighters on the 3rd floor of the building, this was the scene that was being referred to.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 01:50 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I believe that 2nd photo is from the opposite end to the tower but I am not 100% sure.
Below is a photo showing the front of the building from the street level. Notice that same gated entrance as my second photo with the same two "gated doors". To me, it looks like the front of the tower that you pass through/underneath to get to the mall.
https://www.google.com/search?q=plas...TKwkeYeyf6M%3A

Edit: The latticework just above the gated entrance can be seen just past the upper crosswalk in the second photo (the one you say is the opposite end) towards the top.

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Old 23rd January 2017, 01:56 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Below is a photo showing the front of the building from the street level. Notice that same gated entrance as my second photo with the same two "gated doors". To me, it looks like the front of the tower that you pass through/underneath to get to the mall.
https://www.google.com/search?q=plas...TKwkeYeyf6M%3A
It is looking as if this was a 14 storey above ground building, with each storey being 3m - hence the only height reference available being 42m. There were a further 3 basement levels of similar height which seem to have formed part of the mall.

ETA, I should have said average height there to be accurate.

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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:07 PM   #497
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The series of photos along the top of this page seem to show the entrance passes through the tower at ground level and, as it widens into the mall, there are steps down to the lower level with fountains while the ground level walkway continues around both sides.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:09 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
It is looking as if this was a 14 storey above ground building, with each storey being 3m - hence the only height reference available being 42m. There were a further 3 basement levels of similar height which seem to have formed part of the mall.

ETA, I should have said average height there to be accurate.
How is it looking like that when you can literally pick any full photo of the building and count 15 stories above street level?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:10 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The series of photos along the top of this page seem to show the entrance passes through the tower at ground level and, as it widens into the mall, there are steps down to the lower level with fountains while the ground level walkway continues around both sides.
Yes looking at the atrium here then the outside from above view suggests 3 storeys below ground or roughly 9m. Hence the confusion between 17 vs 14 storeys.
This is why the only reference to the building's height is 42m.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:10 PM   #500
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The idiots at ae911t are all over on this one. 15 years of failure for the CD fantasy based on the overwhelming ignorance of believers. One sad movement of liars leading the paranoid gullible followers.

ae911t has to call this CD to back up their fake evidence, aka dumbed down talk, not evidence.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:11 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The series of photos along the top of this page seem to show the entrance passes through the tower at ground level and, as it widens into the mall, there are steps down to the lower level with fountains while the ground level walkway continues around both sides.
As shown in the photo below.
https://foursquare.com/v/plasco-shop...d2b264f5a2221c
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:15 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
There were a further 3 basement levels of similar height which seem to have formed part of the mall.
No. it looks like there was only 1 basement level. Count how many levels there were in your photos and then look at a photo from outside showing the mall.

How many do you for of each? I get five levels for the interior and four levels from the exterior, which leaves one basement level.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:16 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
It is looking as if this was a 14 storey above ground building...
I counted sixteen, plus a services penthouse.

The 42m height claim seems anomalous, I agree, but the only place I've seen that is Wikipedia and it's not referenced to any source. So far as the number of floors above ground is concerned we can count them ourselves from photographs.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:19 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I counted sixteen, plus a services penthouse.

The 42m height claim seems anomalous, I agree, but the only place I've seen that is Wikipedia and it's not referenced to any source. So far as the number of floors above ground is concerned we can count them ourselves from photographs.
The very initial iranian reports quoted 14-15 storeys and 42m too. That would presumably not have come from wiki. I don't have them to hand here, but should be able to dig them up from my history elsewhere.
ETA a search for the building name as referenced in wiki in persian gave a totally different set of results early on, and it is sometimes also spelt with a "K" rather than a "C"

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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:20 PM   #505
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I count fifteen stories per the attached, not including the mechanical penthouse.

Also, this is one of the stupidest side tracks on this forum, and that's saying a lot.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg plasco 20170119-094827-5q7j0 numbered.jpg (71.4 KB, 38 views)
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:22 PM   #506
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Below is what I believe to be the front of "guard shack" with the stairs going down to the water fountain level:
https://foursquare.com/v/plasco-shop...10bee2eebb5e6f

The back of the "guard shack" is shown here:
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Pla...420723!6m1!1e1
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:22 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
I count fifteen stories per the attached, not including the mechanical penthouse.

Also, this is one of the stupidest side tracks on this forum, and that's saying a lot.
I guess some like you and DGM do not consider storey count and height to be important factors in debating/researching a building - you are welcome to that stance, but I do not share it.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:25 PM   #508
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Below shows the back end of the mall, opposite from the gated Plasco building entrance. The water/fountain/basement level can be seen below. In the distance an be seen the gated entrance on the ground floor.
https://foursquare.com/v/plasco-shop...8efeeeb81ca72b
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:26 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I guess some like you and DGM do not consider storey count and height to be important factors in debating/researching a building - you are welcome to that stance, but I do not share it.
I'm curious as to its relevance here. If the building is 15 stories does that mean it can collapse from fire but if its 17 it must have been secret demolition Ninja's with super-sekrit fireproof hush-a-booms?

What changes if a burning building collapses if it is 15, 16 or 17 floors tall?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:27 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
The very initial iranian reports quoted 14-15 storeys and 42m too. That would presumably not have come from wiki. I don't have them to hand here, but should be able to dig them up from my history elsewhere.
ETA a search for the building name as referenced in wiki in persian gave a totally different set of results early on, and it is sometimes also spelt with a "K" rather than a "C"
The report you quoted is this:

http://en.mehrnews.com/news/122852/R...ilding-tragedy

It's a news report, why would you assume their source would not be WIKI?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:29 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I guess some like you and DGM do not consider storey count and height to be important factors in debating/researching a building - you are welcome to that stance, but I do not share it.
The overall height of the building has some rough significance (it is important but not to the extent that 2 or 3 stories matters), but the exact story count is not important at all. If you disagree with that, you are welcome to share actual reasoning as to why instead of vomiting an endless stream of speculation while demonstrating your aversion to simply counting.

I'm also still waiting for you to post your evidence that ARUP tested NIST's temperature model, or did you think I forgot about that waste of time side track? Seems to me like you are 0 for 2 in joining conversations to which you can actually contribute.

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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:30 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
The report you quoted is this:

http://en.mehrnews.com/news/122852/R...ilding-tragedy

It's a news report, why would you assume their source is not be WIKI?
That is one of many reports.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:31 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
That is one of many reports.
And they all didn't source WIKI, why?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:33 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I guess some like you and DGM do not consider storey count and height to be important factors in debating/researching a building - you are welcome to that stance, but I do not share it.

Why are you insisting on 3m. between floors? In Paris it's around 2.5m. between floors.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:34 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
The very initial iranian reports quoted 14-15 storeys and 42m too. That would presumably not have come from wiki. I don't have them to hand here, but should be able to dig them up from my history elsewhere.
It may be that they numbered the floors Ground, 1, 2 up to 15, which makes 16 floors. But in any case, post #326 by pgimeno shows the eleven rows of windows on the side of the building (numbered 6 to 16) plus the penthouse, and post #312 shows the five levels below that, numbered 1 to 5.

Tony earlier remarked that he disputed that floors 1 and 2 really were two floors, but I think the photo I linked to in post #411 shows clearly enough that there's a double height below the 3rd floor which is level with the heavy diamond shaped decoration on the facade. Floor 2 might just have been office or storage space rather than having any shops in it, but the railing around the top of the canopy to the left of the entrance shows that space was accessible and used.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:38 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
It is looking as if this was a 14 storey above ground building, with each storey being 3m - hence the only height reference available being 42m.
It doesn't matter how many times you say that, we can all count at least 15 floors (personally, I count 16) from the photographs. And one might wonder what's the agenda that makes you cherry-pick the 42m height as something your sources must definitely have got correct when the very same sources give the 17 floors that you insist on rejecting. Is it really so important to you to pretend that no building over 15 floors can possibly collapse due to fire that you're willing to tell lies to defend it?

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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:41 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It doesn't matter how many times you say that, we can all count at least 15 floors (personally, I count 16) from the photographs. And one might wonder what's the agenda that makes you cherry-pick the 42m height as something your sources must definitely have got correct when the very same sources give the 17 floors that you insist on rejecting. Is it really so important to you to pretend that no building over 15 floors can possibly collapse due to fire that you're willing to tell lies to defend it?

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NO - It is you that is cherry picking the 17 storey reference - I challenge you to find me just ONE source that says that this building is anything other than 42m high.

Here are a few of the many sources that would dispute the 17 storey claim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasco_Building "Roof 42.0 m (138 ft)"
http://en.mehrnews.com/news/122852/R...ilding-tragedy Built and opened in 1962 in Iran, Plasco Building was for some years the tallest construction of the city with a height of 42 meters
http://www.jansatta.com/internationa...r-fire/232939/
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/ir...ors-1297671788 "Firefighters feared trapped and at least 70 people reported injured in blaze and collapse of Tehran's 15-storey Plasco building"
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/event/f...re-id632059520
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/bl...h-rise-inferno Mayor Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf was in the holy city of Qom – 125 kilometres southwest of Tehran – when the 15-storey Plasco building in downtown Tehran collapsed on Thursday, leaving dozens of firefighters dead or trapped under the rubble.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-...wl2LYxSIN.html Hopes were fading for the men who were still inside the 15-storey Plasco building when it came down on Thursday.
https://www.afp.com/en/news/826/many...-rise-collapse AFP / The steel structure of Iran's oldest high-rise, the 15-storey Plasco building in downtown Tehran, pictured on January 19, 2017 after its
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:42 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
NO - It is you that is cherry picking the 17 storey reference - I challenge you to find me just ONE source that says that this building is anything other than 42m high.

Here are a few of the many sources that would dispute the 17 storey claim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasco_Building "Roof 42.0 m (138 ft)"
http://en.mehrnews.com/news/122852/R...ilding-tragedy Built and opened in 1962 in Iran, Plasco Building was for some years the tallest construction of the city with a height of 42 meters
http://www.jansatta.com/internationa...r-fire/232939/
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/ir...ors-1297671788 "Firefighters feared trapped and at least 70 people reported injured in blaze and collapse of Tehran's 15-storey Plasco building"
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/event/f...re-id632059520
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/bl...h-rise-inferno Mayor Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf was in the holy city of Qom – 125 kilometres southwest of Tehran – when the 15-storey Plasco building in downtown Tehran collapsed on Thursday, leaving dozens of firefighters dead or trapped under the rubble.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-...wl2LYxSIN.html Hopes were fading for the men who were still inside the 15-storey Plasco building when it came down on Thursday.
https://www.afp.com/en/news/826/many...-rise-collapse AFP / The steel structure of Iran's oldest high-rise, the 15-storey Plasco building in downtown Tehran, pictured on January 19, 2017 after its
So can you count or not? Why do you insist it is 14 floors when you can surely count to 15?

Last edited by benthamitemetric; 23rd January 2017 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:43 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
So can you count or not? Why do you insist it is 14 floors when you can surely count to 15?
Happy to accept that it was 15. Thank you.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:44 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
NO - It is you that is cherry picking the 17 storey reference - I challenge you to find me just ONE source that says that this building is anything other than 42m high.
Comprehension fail. Your sources say 17 storeys and 42m. If you reject the 17 storeys why do you insist on the 42m?

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