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23rd January 2017, 03:37 PM | #561 |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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23rd January 2017, 03:40 PM | #562 |
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23rd January 2017, 03:41 PM | #563 |
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So now that we have established that this is not a 17 storey structure, what are your opinions on the damage to the bottom of the tower adjoining the mall, as shown here ?
http://footofan.com/?p=27827 Bottom pic. |
23rd January 2017, 03:47 PM | #564 |
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It's driving me slowly crazy that we're so many pages in and still talking about different numbers of floors.
May I once again acclaim post #312 by pgimeno which shows the lower 5 floors numbered 1 to 5 (those below the level of any side windows) and post #326 again by pgimeno which shows the eleven rows of side windows on the building (numbered 6 to 16) plus the penthouse on top of those sixteen. Also, if post #312 is in doubt, post #411 links to a 1960s photo which makes the lower floors clearer. If anyone doesn't like that count of 16 + penthouse can we please discuss what's wrong with it instead of just posting different numbers? |
23rd January 2017, 03:48 PM | #565 |
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Wow, you managed to read half of the first sentence of my post? Did you really not read the rest of my post or understand it?
Quote:
NOW, it finally comes to light why it is do very important to you. You want to have the WTC collapses remain unprecedented and thus by paranoid extension, suspicious. Correct? |
23rd January 2017, 03:50 PM | #566 |
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23rd January 2017, 03:51 PM | #567 |
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23rd January 2017, 03:53 PM | #568 |
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I posted a full picture of the building in which I numbered the visible floors above street level. If you think there was another floor hiding somewhere, please feel free to point it out. The exact number of floors is a stupid distraction, in any case. Why not just stipulate its 15 floors and just get to the actual point this guy is trying to avoid?
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23rd January 2017, 03:55 PM | #569 |
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Wait. You were trying to establish that it wasn't over 15 storeys, to fit in with that quote you deemed important. We've established that it is over 15. You finished counting, I trust?
Meantime I Googled "remains unprecedented" and found a mixture of people using it to describe events in antiquity for which no precedent has yet been discovered by historians (which is fair use) and a number of other people using it for dramatic emphasis (because they either don't know or don't care about grammar). |
23rd January 2017, 03:56 PM | #570 |
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No, we have established that it was a high rise structure with many reports that it is 17 storeys but that 42 meters seems incongruous with that. It remains for us to await an official report with better info than reporting done within a few days, all feeding off each other.
The damage does not appear to be there in earlier pictures. Was it an internal collape prior to full collapse? Was it damaged by firefighting equipment? Again, we await a full report by a professional agency rather than the suppositions and conjectures of internet armchair engineers. Right? |
23rd January 2017, 04:06 PM | #571 |
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Your floor "1" is actually 2 floors.
https://toptopic.com/data/posts/images/db7n5aif.jpg This picture shows the main entrance opening is 3 floors high. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=312 This post numbers the floors up to 6, which is up to the first level of side windows. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=326 This post numbers the side windows up to 16 and shows the penthouse on top. It only matters because it's a needless cause of distraction while it's disputed, and because Old Coarse Guy has a quote that references "over 15 stories" which he'll use to dispute the relevance of this event if we settle for "at least 15" rather than get it exact. |
23rd January 2017, 04:06 PM | #572 |
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Anyone can count the floors, and anyone who knew the building can say how many floors it had. Yet very, very few people would know the actual height of the building. It's therefore rational to think that, unlike with the floor count, all references for the height come from the same source, which may well be wrong for what we know.
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23rd January 2017, 04:09 PM | #573 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:13 PM | #574 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:14 PM | #575 |
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I think there is a need for clarity on the issue. You guys here can't agree with each other, and none of us would appear to agree with the CTBUH who still erroneously claim that the building had 17 storeys above ground.
http://skyscrapercenter.com/building...building/28320 |
23rd January 2017, 04:16 PM | #576 |
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With all due respect, according to this pic:
http://www.inquisitr.com/3898087/pla...o-tehran-iran/ It appears the Plasco building begins level with the street. If we then compare it to your photo: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post11681636 we see a firetruck parked outside on the street which looks to be about 1.5 floors tall approx. So I think there is another floor in there. But you're right, it doesn't really matter, only if its 15 floors he can dismiss the whole thing outright. ETA: ninja-ed by Jack the Hedge |
23rd January 2017, 04:16 PM | #577 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:17 PM | #578 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:17 PM | #579 |
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I'm actually not convinced that there are three floors there in the entranceway photo as opposed to the ground floor being especially tall to accommodate the large walkway into the mall. If you just use any measurement of relative size, what you are claiming to be a second floor is about half the height of the floors above it (measure from the bottom of the panel below each window to the top of each window).
Again, however, I fully understand what point Old Coarse Guy is trying to make, and his point wouldn't be any less stupid if the building were actually 16 floors and by his own stupid logic he thought that meant it could be compared to the WTC7 collapse. Once you accept that, why even waste pages and pages arguing over an ambiguous half floor? It makes no difference and just lets him dodge on explaining himself, all while watering down any other point that comes up. His point is stupid if the building is 15 stories, and his point is stupid if the building is 16 stories. Let's just focus on the point. |
23rd January 2017, 04:18 PM | #580 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:20 PM | #581 |
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This bypassed parody and went straight to sad town.
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23rd January 2017, 04:22 PM | #582 |
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This is legit hilarious.
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23rd January 2017, 04:23 PM | #583 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:24 PM | #584 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:26 PM | #585 |
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Makes no difference, and I am not about to go into my contacts with the CTBUH here. Sorry.
Now, that pic. http://footofan.com/?p=27827 What's your opinion of the damage ? |
23rd January 2017, 04:26 PM | #586 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:28 PM | #587 |
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Indeed, the building could have a double-height ground floor, but the canopy above the shopfront to the left of the main entrance has a railing around it, indicating that it's actually a balcony. Later pictures show walls or screens around the balconies on both sides. The small 2nd floor still allows the ground floor shops to have impressively high ceilings. It's likely the space was only used for storage or maybe offices, but it's there.
The pre-construction model of the building, photo linked elsewhere in the thread, is very basic, but shows 16 rows of windows. |
23rd January 2017, 04:31 PM | #588 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:33 PM | #589 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:33 PM | #590 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:34 PM | #591 |
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23rd January 2017, 04:34 PM | #592 |
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That "balcony" does not imply a floor. It's just a fence around a shop's overhang and looks to be simply decorative as (1) there is no access point to it from within the building, and (2) if there were an access point to it, the person going out onto it would have to crawl through a hole given to it that it does not sit a full floor's height below what is clearly the bottom of the next floor.
EDIT: See the attached to illustrate the discrepancy between a full floor and what you believe to be the second floor. |
23rd January 2017, 04:53 PM | #593 |
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Yes, I suppose so. It's possible the space was unused and the ground floor was double height - say about 20 feet - leaving about another 10 ft to fit in one more floor to take us to the top of the entrance.
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23rd January 2017, 04:54 PM | #594 |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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23rd January 2017, 04:57 PM | #595 |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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23rd January 2017, 04:57 PM | #596 |
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Great--now we're all agreed. It was a 15 story building with an extra tall first floor and a 42m roofline, which roofline measure does not (at least for the purposes of our discussion) include the sizable mechanical penthouse, as previously stipulated.
So wow us with your brilliance, Old coarse guy. What is the exact significance of the comment by Dr. Sunder that you quoted to the collapse of such a building? |
23rd January 2017, 05:24 PM | #597 |
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23rd January 2017, 05:58 PM | #599 |
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Mezzanine is the word isn't it?
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23rd January 2017, 06:27 PM | #600 |
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You know, on the Bozo show, if you got the ball in the bucket, that was pretty accurate too. And it meant more to the kid winning than your assertion means to anyone but the gullible AE911T want to fleece. There is a first time for everything, including a metal frame high rise collapsing due to fire. Just because no one exploded an atomic bomb before Nagasaki and Hiroshima didn't mean it was impossible. And yet here you are, clinging to it like it's item 2 in the Truther creed, below free fall and above in its own footprint.
Ludicrous. And disgusting. Ludisgusting? |
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