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Old 24th January 2017, 02:10 PM   #641
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Personally, I haven't expressed an opinion on the cause of the building's demise yet. But it took me 8 pages to get these guys to admit that the building didn't have 17 above ground storeys. Says it all really.
Why does this "say it all"? We can count atleast 15 (less penthouse)

You haven't even made a coherent point.
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Old 24th January 2017, 02:22 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
his entire thread is so typical of JREF. There is one side that will say it is controlled demolition and another side saying there was absolutely no controlled demolition. What is for sure is that nobody on this forum has the full set of facts yet that does prevent the posting of opinions as facts. This thread was started on the 19th of January and lines were already drawn.

The fact that Debunkers were ridiculing CD people or that CD people were slamming the Debunkers so quickly shows a complete lack of self discipline and the lack of desire to obtain facts. This demonstration illustrates the sophomoric reasoning within both camps and completely destroys credibility.
Because to think the collapse was the result of explosive charges rather than a fire is insane.
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Old 24th January 2017, 02:30 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Personally, I haven't expressed an opinion on the cause of the building's demise yet. But it took me 8 pages to get these guys to admit that the building didn't have 17 above ground storeys. Says it all really.
And yet you still haven't said exactly why it is so important wrt determining causation of collapse.
Instead you fall back to a quote from Sunder concerning the WTC collapses and again refuse to say why.
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Old 24th January 2017, 02:30 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Personally, I haven't expressed an opinion on the cause of the building's demise yet. But it took me 8 pages to get these guys to admit that the building didn't have 17 above ground storeys. Says it all really.
I agree that this is indeed quite an indication of strong bias.

However, eventually it was "admitted", wasn't it.

Have you, after 8 pages, finally "admitted" that it really doesn't matter if the building has 14, 15 or 17 storeys, and that it really matters not if Sunder's cut-off hight for "unprecedented highrise collapse" was chosen as 14, 15 or 17 storeys? Have you "admitted" yet that the WTC collapses are still "unprecedented" as 15+ storey highrise collapses even if post-9/11 hundreds of 16+ storey highrises had collapsed solely due to fire?


(Scare-quotes around "admitted" because it is such a loaded buzz-word in Truther-speak. I "admit" however that it is properly used in the current context)
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Old 24th January 2017, 02:34 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because to think the collapse was the result of explosive charges rather than a fire is insane.
Spot on.

We have patently obvious severe fire on multiple floors. We know from a century of fire science tgat heat damages steel and can cause structural failures.

We have no evidence that explosives were in the building.

Yet with these very same knowns, some people make up a fiction about explosive demolitions based solely on an agenda driven interpretation of what the collapse "looked like".
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Old 24th January 2017, 02:40 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Why does this "say it all"? We can count atleast 15 (less penthouse)

You haven't even made a coherent point.
there is even an Iranian article linked that states 17 storys. are we to believe that people from that very area have no idea what buildings they are talking about? well, I guess we are as the controlled demo farce is being perpetrated on people who are from around the WTC.
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Old 24th January 2017, 02:41 PM   #647
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The OP is wrong. It states 17 storeys. After 8 pages people here eventually realised and admitted that. You can't even agree amongst yourselves how many storeys the building had. Skip back 2 or 3 pages, and look.
What chance do you people have of engaging in any kind of debate re this building when it takes 8 pages for you to admit that the building was not 17 storeys, and even at that you still cannot agree.
Anyone here still agree with the CTBUH that this building had 17 storeys above ground ?
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Old 24th January 2017, 02:49 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
The OP is wrong. It states 17 storeys. After 8 pages people here eventually realised and admitted that. You can't even agree amongst yourselves how many storeys the building had. Skip back 2 or 3 pages, and look.
What chance do you people have of engaging in any kind of debate re this building when it takes 8 pages for you to admit that the building was not 17 storeys, and even at that you still cannot agree.
Anyone here still agree with the CTBUH that this building had 17 storeys above ground ?
It has 15 storeys above ground, as best as I can count.
(Note that I never thought or said otherwise)

So what? Why does it matter that the OP has copied a number that is slightly off?
I agree it matters that some people here are difficult to convince that some innocent mistake has been copied when you want to continue discussing with these people. But still, that's a detail that doesn't matter - why spend days circling around this unimportant detail, if your intention is not to bog down discussion of Conspiracy Theories and nonsense claims of explosive demolition?
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Old 24th January 2017, 02:51 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
The OP is wrong. It states 17 storeys. After 8 pages people here eventually realised and admitted that. You can't even agree amongst yourselves how many storeys the building had. Skip back 2 or 3 pages, and look.
What chance do you people have of engaging in any kind of debate re this building when it takes 8 pages for you to admit that the building was not 17 storeys, and even at that you still cannot agree.
Anyone here still agree with the CTBUH that this building had 17 storeys above ground ?
I'll agree with anything you say about the height.

Now your point is...?

Dying of curiosity!
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Old 24th January 2017, 02:59 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I'll agree with anything you say about the height.

Now your point is...?

Dying of curiosity!
I actually came in here to discuss what may or may not have caused the building to collapse. Given that it took 8 pages to establish how many storeys it had, I took that debate elsewhere and it moved on at speed. I will follow this thread with interest though.
So far DGM has said that the height and storey count has no relevance whatsoever, and others have disagreed with him.
This clearly is not a place for a constructive debate, but is nevertheless, highly entertaining when it takes you 8 pages to establish how many storeys the building has.

ETA I should have added that the height and the storey count was something that i wanted to use the internal pictures of the vendors in the building (the material seller etc) to try to ascertain the thickness of the floor system. Do you think that is relevant or not ?

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Old 24th January 2017, 03:00 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I actually came in here to discuss what may or may not have caused the building to collapse. Given that it took 8 pages to establish how many storeys it had, I took that debate elsewhere and it moved on at speed. I will follow this thread with interest though.
So far DGM has said that the height and storey count has no relevance whatsoever, and others have disagreed with him.
This clearly is not a place for a constructive debate, but is nevertheless, highly entertaining when it takes you 8 pages to establish how many storeys the building has.
Just remind us how many storeys you think it has, again?

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Old 24th January 2017, 03:00 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
The OP is wrong. It states 17 storeys.

The fact of the matter is, there was a high-rise building in Iran that caught fire and collapsed.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:02 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Anyone here still agree with the CTBUH that this building had 17 storeys above ground ?
No, they are shills and they all should be castrated.(excuse me if I take this step to maybe progress this lunacy)

Please tell me why..
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:03 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
The fact of the matter is, there was a high-rise building in Iran that caught fire and collapsed.
See above re my intent to try to establish how thick the flooring system was in the building, hence my interest in the height being given as 43m, which I now believe is 100% accurate.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:03 PM   #655
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I actually came in here to discuss what may or may not have caused the building to collapse. Given that it took 8 pages to establish how many storeys it had, I took that debate elsewhere and it moved on at speed. I will follow this thread with interest though.
So far DGM has said that the height and storey count has no relevance whatsoever, and others have disagreed with him.
This clearly is not a place for a constructive debate, but is nevertheless, highly entertaining when it takes you 8 pages to establish how many storeys the building has.
It would not have taken so long if you said why you felt it was important all those many pages ago.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:05 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It would not have taken so long if you said why you felt it was important all those many pages ago.
So you are now claiming that if people had known my intent, they would have come to the conclusion that the building was 43m and not 17 storeys high ? That makes no sense.

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Old 24th January 2017, 03:06 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
So you are now claiming that if people had known my intent, they would have come to the conclusion that the building was 43m and not 17 storeys high ? That makes no sense.
A source you quoted claims both.

Why is one wrong?
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:08 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
So you are now claiming that if people had known my intent, they would have come to the conclusion that the building was 43m and not 17 storeys high ? The makes no sense.
Only speaking for myself, I would have said "For the purpose of discussion I totally agree with whatever height you want it to be."

Now we are at a couple of additional posts and I'm still trying to get you to say what your point is:
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:08 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
A source you quoted claims both.
Yes, I am well aware of the variety of storey counts available out there. But there is only one claim for the height of the building 43m. This is the question that I asked 10 pages ago, and here we are. Go figure.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:10 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Yes, I am well aware of the variety of storey counts available out there. But there is only one claim for the height of the building 43m. This is the question that I asked 10 pages ago, and here we are. Go figure.
well I said it was 43 meters 11 pages ago, so.....

your point?
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:10 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
There is one side that will say it is controlled demolition and another side saying there was absolutely no controlled demolition.
Maybe we can find a compromise?

https://xkcd.com/690/

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
What is for sure is that nobody on this forum has the full set of facts yet that does prevent the posting of opinions as facts.
I wish to propose for the reader’s favorable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true.
Bertrand Russell, On the Value of Scepticism (1928).

"Fire did it" has quite some ground to be believed: there was fire; fire is known to weaken steel; fire is known to bring buildings down.

What ground is there to suppose it was anything else? Be it midgets with saws, fairy dust, explosives, Mothra or alien beams?
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:13 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Yes, I am well aware of the variety of storey counts available out there. But there is only one claim for the height of the building 43m. This is the question that I asked 10 pages ago, and here we are. Go figure.
You still haven't made a coherent point.

Can you do it now or do you need more pages of attention?
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:15 PM   #663
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Look guys, in all sincerity. As I said, I moved past this point by the time we were 2 pages in here, and I did it elsewhere. I will follow this thread, but myself and others see your forum for what it is. Or rather what it is not.
Just not a place for an open and constructive discussion, but more an invitation to wade through treacle and partake in a point scoring exercise.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:17 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
The OP is wrong. It states 17 storeys. After 8 pages people here eventually realised and admitted that. You can't even agree amongst yourselves how many storeys the building had. Skip back 2 or 3 pages, and look.
It's relative. There's a half-floor that may count as one or not, we don't know. And the penthouse level may be counted as one or not. Depending on how you count, it may be 15, 16, or 17 above ground (and even up to 19 if you count the basement levels).

It's no surprise there's disagreement, as it's unclear what the sources' definition of a level/floor/storey is.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:17 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
You still haven't made a coherent point.

Can you do it now or do you need more pages of attention?
Is the floor thickness important ?
Remember you are the guy who said who the height and storey count was not relevant.

ETA, I am not here for your attention. I initially came here because I thought that there was a chance that maybe some of you had managed to get details on this building that I was looking for. It is a shame that we couldn't have the discussion here.

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Old 24th January 2017, 03:20 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Is the floor thickness important ?
Remember you are the guy who said who the height and storey count was not relevant.
It's not until it's shown to be. How is it relevant?
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:20 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
It's relative. There's a half-floor that may count as one or not, we don't know. And the penthouse level may be counted as one or not. Depending on how you count, it may be 15, 16, or 17 above ground (and even up to 19 if you count the basement levels).

It's no surprise there's disagreement, as it's unclear what the sources' definition of a level/floor/storey is.
Yes, I have had an initial response from the CTBUH on this and am awaiting their further clarification as to where they got their data from, which they no doubt should revise.

ETA, And to be fair, I think that you are the one person on here who assisted me in moving forward. Thank you for that.

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Old 24th January 2017, 03:23 PM   #668
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Yes, I have had an initial response from the CTBUH on this and am awaiting their further clarification as to where they got their data from, which they no doubt should revise.
Why do you think so? We're talking about the collapse of a structure, right? That includes from foundation to top.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:24 PM   #669
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Could it be this was a false flag incident?
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:25 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Why do you think so? We're talking about the collapse of a structure, right? That includes from foundation to top.
Yes, it would naturally include the basement, but the CTBUH specifically list this building as having 17 "above ground" storeys, which was the very issue that brought me here initially, to see if you guys had some useful sources that might help.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:26 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Personally, I haven't expressed an opinion on the cause of the building's demise yet.
Do you plan to do this soon?
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:27 PM   #672
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Yes, it would naturally include the basement, but the CTBUH specifically list this building as having 17 "above ground" storeys, which was the very issue that brought me here initially, to see if you guys had some useful sources that might help.
And it maters how?
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:28 PM   #673
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Yes, it would naturally include the basement, but the CTBUH specifically list this building as having 17 "above ground" storeys, which was the very issue that brought me here initially, to see if you guys had some useful sources that might help.
What's clearly wrong about it? I already noted that if you count the half floor as one, and the penthouse as another, there are 17.

Depending on the definition, 17 is right.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:29 PM   #674
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Originally Posted by gmanontario View Post
Could it be this was a false flag incident?
Yeah, the Iranians attacked the Iranians and killed many people in order to tilt the public opinion towards enhancing building codes. That totally makes sense.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:31 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Look guys, in all sincerity. As I said, I moved past this point by the time we were 2 pages in here, and I did it elsewhere. I will follow this thread, but myself and others see your forum for what it is. Or rather what it is not.
Just not a place for an open and constructive discussion, but more an invitation to wade through treacle and partake in a point scoring exercise.
That was why i said I was willing to agree to anything, because i knew ultimately you would not say anything.

You buried this thread in ten pages of ******** and now are trying to blame us.

there was no chance it was ever going to be different.

truthers is as truthers does.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:31 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
And it maters how?
DGM, I came here with the intent of having a constructive discussion and learning something about the building and maybe imparting some of what I know, and would learn in the process. If you want to do that, feel free to engage me. Until then though, we're done, apart from confrontation, which you seem set on.
It is not a confrontation that you will walk away from looking good.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:33 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Yeah, the Iranians attacked the Iranians and killed many people in order to tilt the public opinion towards enhancing building codes. That totally makes sense.
No, It's about discrediting the evergrowing strength of the "Truth Movement".

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Old 24th January 2017, 03:36 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
DGM, I came here with the intent of having a constructive discussion and learning something about the building and maybe imparting some of what I know, and would learn in the process. If you want to do that, feel free to engage me. Until then though, we're done, apart from confrontation, which you seem set on.
It is not a confrontation that you will walk away from looking good.
OK. I'm more then willing.

First, will you move this discussion outside of conspiracy theories?

It has no real place here, right?
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:36 PM   #679
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
What's clearly wrong about it? I already noted that if you count the half floor as one, and the penthouse as another, there are 17.

Depending on the definition, 17 is right.
Well, not according to how the CTBUH sets out it's criteria for reaching these values, which is what I have requested they clarify. By their own standard the building should be at least 17m or so taller, maybe more if it was indeed 17 storeys above ground as they say (which it clearly is not).
Given that this was lauded as Tehran's tallest building when completed, I am surprised that I have not been able to find a book or a publicly available record from back then which states this explicitly. Hence my request to them.
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:39 PM   #680
Andy_Ross
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
DGM, I came here with the intent of having a constructive discussion and learning something about the building and maybe imparting some of what I know, and would learn in the process. If you want to do that, feel free to engage me. Until then though, we're done, apart from confrontation, which you seem set on.
It is not a confrontation that you will walk away from looking good.
So, do you think a fire caused the building to collapse or was it something else?

So far all evidence points to fire.
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