|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
21st January 2017, 08:31 PM | #161 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,697
|
You still have to be careful what you upload as this case from 2014 shows:
Quote:
|
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!" 'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail Everybody gets it wrong sometimes... |
|
21st January 2017, 08:32 PM | #162 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
|
You realize that the Plasco dust expulsions occurred where the floors failed? Tell us MJ, where were the first floor failures in WTC7 according to NIST,WAI,ARUP, etc.?
When col79 buckled around the 12th floor it drew down all the floors attached. Can you envision this, MJ? Yes this caused floor failures all the way up but in what order, MJ? Would the EPH be impacting a floor, or would it be collapsing into a void that reaches all the ####### way down to the ground. Come on MJ, think first, post second, not the other way around. |
21st January 2017, 08:36 PM | #163 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
|
|
21st January 2017, 09:51 PM | #164 |
Scholar
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 117
|
|
21st January 2017, 11:39 PM | #165 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
|
21st January 2017, 11:53 PM | #166 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,692
|
|
22nd January 2017, 12:50 AM | #167 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
I don't know what "pancaking" means in relation to the collapse I see on the videos. Maybe if floors were collapsing on one side of the building and then the next. It wasn't uniform or anything.
The NIST animations show some pretty heavy action on the east side of WTC 7, idk I'd just expect building dust to come out of the windows from all of that stuff going on. |
22nd January 2017, 01:03 AM | #168 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 507
|
|
__________________
https://t.me/pump_upp |
|
22nd January 2017, 01:09 AM | #169 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
|
Micah,
a "pancaking collapse" is when one floor slab falls on the floor slab below it. This reduces the volume between the two floor slabs from 100% to almost 0% in a very short time. The volume is filled with air. The pancaking pushes the air out of that floor. For example: Let's say a floor compartment is 20x20 feet wide, floors are 10 feet high. The compartment has 4 windows, each 4x4 feet. This gives you an air volume of 4000 cubic feet, which get pushed out of a total window area of 64 square feet. Let's say the collapse takes one second. Then we can calculate the average speed at which air leaves the windows - just divide volume by window area and collapse time: vair = 4000 ft3/64 ft2 / 1 s = 62.5 ft/s (19 m/s, 68.6 km/h, 42.9 mph). In the WTC, floors had a much larger area, the volume/window area was larger than this. I am too lazy to look up numbers for WTC7, but essentially you should now understand why air is expected to be pushed out the windows at high velocities. At the WTC7, when the east core collapsed entirely (c79 buckling, EPH descending), all the intact floors from floor 14 up to the roof descended in unison. For example: The slab of the 40th floor did not fall onto the slab of the 39th floor, because the 39th floor was falling in uniso. Consequently, the distance between falling floors remained the same, no (or little) air was displaced by this. Hence, no large volume of air needs to be expelled anywhere between floor 14 and the roof. It's much different at the bottom of the building: All the falling floor, as they end up on the ground/debris pile, are reduced to zero volume by and by. You can expect lots of air to be pushed out near the ground - but that was not captured by any of the cams that were locks away. You can of course see lots of dust billowing near street level e.g. in the Ashleigh Banfield video. |
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
|
22nd January 2017, 01:47 AM | #170 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
Ah, I see. Still, I see Plasco and how air pressure made the squibs there so I can't help but think air pressure could play a similar role in this hypothetical. My vision of what a natural WTC 7 collapse should look like is the Plasco collapse. I mean, there's no visual indication that anything catastrophic is happening with the East Penthouse when you see videos of WTC 7. I mean, you guys groan at AE911TRUTH clips of people saying they would've expected a slower, droning collapse of the WTC, but exactly that just happened a couple of days ago.
|
22nd January 2017, 02:02 AM | #171 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 571
|
It may be helpful to see section 5.3 of the WAI report starting on pg B-119. Unlike the Plasco building where the fires caused the initial floor collapses near the top of the building, in WTC it is predicted that the initial floors that collapsed were near the bottom. Almost immediately after those floors collapsed, the columns to their west (which were right below the penthouse) would have buckled due to a loss of lateral support, and the upper floors would then come down all at once with the columns, meaning the air between the upper floors wouldn't necessarily be blown out until those floors all ran into resistance near the ground level.
|
22nd January 2017, 06:56 AM | #172 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
|
Vision? Isn't "imagination" a more appropriate word?
There are many ways in which buildings can collapse - always depends on specifics of the structure, the materials used, and where the initiating event (the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back") occurred. I would expect for clones of WTC7 to collapse in different ways, depending on whether initial failure occurred low or high, in the core or perimeter. Suppose the WTC7 fires had burned on identical floors, only in the upper 10 floors, and initial failure would have been a floor collapse on, say, the 46th floor: In that case, the columns would not have had much of a load above them. Pancaking floor collapse would likely have run down 46 stories all the way to the ground, ahead of column failure and roof caving in. You would definitely have seen air and dust expelled through windows from top to bottom. However, WTC7 failed first very low, out of sight. Are you able to visualize that different failure locations can lead to different collapse scenarios? (It feels weird to even be asking such a question) |
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
|
22nd January 2017, 07:08 AM | #173 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,744
|
|
__________________
So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
|
22nd January 2017, 09:04 AM | #174 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
22nd January 2017, 11:22 AM | #175 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
Well we at least know that dust came out of the building as the perimeter started coming down, high in the building where the official story has that whole area cleanly gutted.
Also, why would the east-to-west progressive collapse not create dust clouds? It's not just the East Penthouse and the area underneath under question. |
22nd January 2017, 11:30 AM | #176 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
Please cite this "official story" that has "that whole area cleanly gutted".
Also, what was being emitted at the bottom of WTC7, where it appears from studies that much of the collapse initiation occured, and where much of the interior was headed at initiation? If you don't understand all these things though, remember your brain is not built to simulate a skyskraper collapse, so what you conceive and perceive are limited in their utility. The best you can do is a computerized simulation. Are you prepared to tackle that project, or would you rather just say things and hope somehow to convince others by your deft choice of descriptive terms, regardless of accuracy? |
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
22nd January 2017, 11:38 AM | #177 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
|
Seriously?
You first tell us that no dust being expelled is suspicious, and now you tell us that dust being expelled is suspicious?? Seriously?? I just exlained to you that the east core didn't undergo pancaking collapse, that the upper 30+ floors came down in unison. How did the west core come down? Well, the west core didn't undergo pancaking collapse, the upper 30+ floors came down in unison. It is amazing that you proved utterly unable to perform such an easy step of mental transformation. I see more clearly now why you are a truther: Apparently, you cannot or do not think. You don't employ stuff you learned in the past hour to solve an easy problem that has just been solved right before your eyes. |
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
|
22nd January 2017, 12:11 PM | #178 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
|
|
22nd January 2017, 12:37 PM | #179 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
|
yes
Quote:
The EPH falling in would have it's debris largely falling into a hole that extends down to the ground. What mechanism would then have expulsions of air and dust occur anywhere other than at the bottom? In the case of a floor collapse onto a lower floor you are trapping air between the collapsing debris and the lower (intact) floor, forcing the air to move sideways. |
22nd January 2017, 12:38 PM | #180 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
|
|
22nd January 2017, 12:42 PM | #181 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
|
Sort of. The friction of the object means that air is being pulled along. In addition you have displacement, the volume of air that the object is displacing must go somewhere, it flows around the object creating turbulence.
You can experience this simply by standing next to a highway as semi-trailers pas by at high speed. |
22nd January 2017, 12:43 PM | #182 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
22nd January 2017, 12:54 PM | #183 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
|
|
22nd January 2017, 01:00 PM | #184 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
Dust can be seen coming out of the same area of the building when the perimeter comes down, even though there's supposed to be nothing there.
There is no dust coming out of the building as the alleged east-to-west progressive collapse is supposed to be happening, even if we assume the East Penthouse/Column 79 under-area could have fell without emitting dust. |
22nd January 2017, 01:10 PM | #185 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
|
|
22nd January 2017, 01:20 PM | #186 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 571
|
As far as I know, the only documented attempt to fulsomely model the entire internal collapse from east to west was carried out by NIST. You can see the outcome of their model in NIST NCSTAR 1-9A at page 108. While their collapse sequence does not perfectly capture what happened in the building (as can be seen by how the moment frame in their simulation suffered more damage than in real life during the internal collapse), the general collapse propagation mechanism they predicted is consistent with WAI's horizontal collapse propagation initiation mechanism: as the initial floors fell, the internal columns lost lateral support and buckled, bringing down the sections of floor to their west, which in turn caused the next set of columns to the west to fail. This process repeated itself rapidly from one set of floor sections to the next set of columns. As you can see from the NIST model, however, the main column buckling action in each iteration would remain relatively low in the building (though it does appear to move up a few floors each iteration, it never surpasses floor 25 or so). This is consistent with the visual record re dust expulsions as it means there were scenarios in which the floor failures above the 25th floor were all happening relatively simultaneously. I will also add, however, that, in any case, there may well have been dust expulsions from the collapses of higher floors on the south side of the building that we could not see.
|
22nd January 2017, 03:20 PM | #187 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
|
Huh?
When and where is there "supposed to be nothing there"? The perimeter comes down a split second after the west penthouse starts dropping. Do you fantasize in some hot fever dream that the "official story" claims the entire west core has disappeared during that split second?? |
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
|
22nd January 2017, 04:36 PM | #188 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
22nd January 2017, 04:59 PM | #189 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 699
|
Wasn't this building 17 floors with 2 or 3 of a basement and actually 14-15 storeys high ?
|
22nd January 2017, 05:03 PM | #190 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
22nd January 2017, 05:05 PM | #191 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 699
|
|
22nd January 2017, 05:06 PM | #192 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
22nd January 2017, 05:08 PM | #193 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 699
|
|
22nd January 2017, 05:10 PM | #194 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
22nd January 2017, 05:12 PM | #195 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 699
|
|
22nd January 2017, 05:14 PM | #196 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
22nd January 2017, 05:18 PM | #197 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 699
|
|
22nd January 2017, 05:20 PM | #198 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
22nd January 2017, 05:21 PM | #199 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 699
|
|
22nd January 2017, 05:22 PM | #200 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|