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Old 31st January 2017, 04:59 PM   #2321
Jack by the hedge
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
... do you see TWO lines, because I do - and they line up with the double vertical steel runs - See them ?

Attachment 36317
I have to admit no, I really don't see what you're referring to. There are better quality views of the East wall in the video you recently posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50eOzUHZkP8
Can you see your two lines in that footage? If so can you tell us where to look and exactly what to look for?
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:05 PM   #2322
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I haven't heard a "fire did it theory" yet. I am open to hearing one if you want to try...
My theory is that fire did it.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:05 PM   #2323
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I have to admit no, I really don't see what you're referring to. There are better quality views of the East wall in the video you recently posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50eOzUHZkP8
Can you see your two lines in that footage? If so can you tell us where to look and exactly what to look for?
Okay, fair enough. Like I said - my eyes aren't what they used to be.
I will maybe take a look at the opposite side instead.
Do you remember when you guys attributed the corner damage and debris on the canopy area to stuff falling out the building?
Someone pointed out that there was a distinct line of damage up the east face. I'm sure you remember that don't you ?
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:08 PM   #2324
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
My theory is that fire did it.
My theory is that it would be highly unusual for that to happen.
So how you thinking fire managed to do this ?
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:12 PM   #2325
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Okay, fair enough. Like I said - my eyes aren't what they used to be.
I will maybe take a look at the opposite side instead.
Do you remember when you guys attributed the corner damage and debris on the canopy area to stuff falling out the building?
Someone pointed out that there was a distinct line of damage up the east face. I'm sure you remember that don't you ?
As best I recall without looking back, the claim was not exactly that there was a line of damage up the East face, rather it was that floors had collapsed on the North and one visible sign of it from the East was that the last three windows on the right hand side of several floors were dark because they had been smashed and there was just a void behind them.

I think that was just after I had speculated that the debris on the canopy might be stuff that had fallen from the wall of the building above. But debris bursting out of the wall from an internal collapse made more sense.

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Old 31st January 2017, 05:12 PM   #2326
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
My theory is that it would be highly unusual for that to happen.
So how you thinking fire managed to do this ?
Do you have an alternative? Fire is the only event documented.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:21 PM   #2327
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
As best I recall without looking back, the claim was not exactly that there was a line of damage up the East face, rather it was that floors had collapsed on the North and one visible sign of it from the East was that the last three windows on the right hand side of several floors were dark because they had been smashed and there was just a void behind them.

I think that was just after I had speculated that the debris on the canopy might be stuff that had fallen from the wall of the building above. But debris bursting out of the wall from an internal collapse made more sense.
Yeah that was it. The canopy damage and the hole.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:22 PM   #2328
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Do you have an alternative? Fire is the only event documented.
Best to explore all the options though isn't it.
What I mean is, HOW did fire do it needs to be looked at as well as the usual method of achieving this kind of thing.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:23 PM   #2329
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Yeah that was it. The canopy damage and the hole.
Or the canopy pushed away and the lack of a hole. Yes.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:28 PM   #2330
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Okay, fair enough. Like I said - my eyes aren't what they used to be.
I will maybe take a look at the opposite side instead.
Do you remember when you guys attributed the corner damage and debris on the canopy area to stuff falling out the building?
Someone pointed out that there was a distinct line of damage up the east face. I'm sure you remember that don't you ?
Get to the *********** point!,,,
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:29 PM   #2331
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Best to explore all the options though isn't it.
What I mean is, HOW did fire do it needs to be looked at as well as the usual method of achieving this kind of thing.
Fire did it. The video goal was? No goal, no clue? Do you have a theory...

BTW, the going theory is fire did it. You seem to be behind on the facts and evidence, as you gish gallop and quibble about BS.

Will you be doing an FEA - after 544 posts, no convergence on a reason, no goal, nothingness continues. What is the purpose?
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:30 PM   #2332
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Best to explore all the options though isn't it.
What I mean is, HOW did fire do it needs to be looked at as well as the usual method of achieving this kind of thing.
I asked before. How did you rule out unicorns and space beams? You failed to answer even giving the fact the same amount of evidence is present for intentional demolition.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:31 PM   #2333
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Best to explore all the options though isn't it.
What I mean is, HOW did fire do it needs to be looked at as well as the usual method of achieving this kind of thing.
How?
It made things very hot, the steel lost its strength as expected of steel in a very hot fire and the building fell down.

Steel gets doft in fires and lises its strength. It's common knowledge. Entire industries sre based on this fact.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:31 PM   #2334
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Best to explore all the options though isn't it.

No, because the evidence there is, indicates that fire was responsible for the collapse of that building in Iran.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:32 PM   #2335
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Beachnut has a very nice photograph of steel beams draped over charred wooden beams. It demonstrates perfectly how steel loses strength in fire.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:34 PM   #2336
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Or the canopy pushed away and the lack of a hole. Yes.
You're quite right, the canopy was pushed away, cut back as well in that photo that Gamolon found of the firemen about 35-40 feet North of where it looked like there was a big hole in the ground yes.

Can't find the pic now - but it was just up from here wasn't it - NB I am not saying that this was the hole obviously. Would have been noticeable that
Untitled-1.jpg
Even I would have noticed that one.

ETA - Look - there's that core column again !
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:38 PM   #2337
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
You're quite right, the canopy was pushed away, cut back as well in that photo that Gamolon found of the firemen about 35-40 feet North of where it looked like there was a big hole in the ground yes.

Can't find the pic now - but it was just up from here wasn't it - NB I am not saying that this was the hole obviously. Would have been noticeable that
Attachment 36319
Even I would have noticed that one.

ETA - Look - there's that core column again !
You keep showing evidence for, "fire did it".
Have you come to a conclusion yet, a point, or anything?

How does this relate to 9/11 where fire destroyed WTC 1, 2, and 7? Not to mention 5 and 6... fire did it.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:41 PM   #2338
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I have seen the videos of the building start to go yes. But I haven't been able to know exactly how serious it was and how long before the building collapsed globally.
Do you see any of the major load bearing elements failing before the global collapse?
I would be interested to see that.
As for how serious, again, 1/3 of the building from floor 10 down, according to the reports.

As for load bearing elements, depends on what you call major, but it seems clear that the northern girders were gone with the floors.

That creates a very large span without lateral support, thus a big instability in the north side.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:46 PM   #2339
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
As for how serious, again, 1/3 of the building from floor 10 down, according to the reports.

As for load bearing elements, depends on what you call major, but it seems clear that the northern girders were gone with the floors.

That creates a very large span without lateral support, thus a big instability in the north side.
So there should be lots of video evidence for that then.
You seen any? Got a link for it ?

I do remember hearing about it, damage and the building shaking before it came down, but the only evidence I saw for internal damage pre collapse was the fire fighters needing rescued from the mid level floors on the west side.
What about you ?

ETA And the bit about spans - that's highly speculative.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:48 PM   #2340
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
My theory is that it would be highly unusual for that to happen.
So how you thinking fire managed to do this ?
How unusual is it for a steel framed building to collapse, given that it has been ablaze for several hours?

By which I mean; among the set of steel framed buildings which have been ablaze for several hours, how small a proportion actually collapse?

I think fire managed to do it because I know that heat weakens steel. We have established to my satisfaction that floors collapsed, but since I have absolutely no information regarding the construction of the floors nor how they were supported I'm going to have to leave it to the real investigators to say exactly how support failed.


What we seem to have here is equivalent to a murder mystery, where everyone saw video of the victim being savagely beaten until eventually collapsing, and most people think there's no mystery at all. Yet some self-appointed detectives are adamant that the body should be tested for exotic poisons because the beating might just be a cover for the real cause of death. They say there are no previous cases of a man over six feet one and a half, wearing steel framed spectacles (with red hair, six fingers on his left hand and who owned a terrier called Rupert) dying from a prolonged beating.

Except for the ones who did, but the detectives have always insisted those were actually killed with curare by a concealed ninja with a blowpipe, because reasons.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:48 PM   #2341
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JAQing off is an Olympic sport for some
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:49 PM   #2342
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
So there should be lots of video evidence for that then.
You seen any? Got a link for it ?
Got evidence in support of controlled demolition?

Got a link?
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:51 PM   #2343
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
<other stuff snipped> ETA - Look - there's that core column again !
A column. So? What about it?
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:53 PM   #2344
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
How unusual is it for a steel framed building to collapse, given that it has been ablaze for several hours?
Very. NIST said unprecedented for a steel framed building over 15 storeys.
That was back in 2008 though.
Any others since ?

And re the column, just saying - it sticks out a lot and it's big.
I wonder what that hole was for - you any idea ?

ETA I just noticed that big hole in the mall at the 3rd from top level too.

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Old 31st January 2017, 05:54 PM   #2345
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I conclude that I'm not sure what it is you're getting at. I haven't heard a "fire did it theory" yet.

If you are implying that explosives or thermite were responsible for the collapse of that building, there is no evidence. The available evidence is that fire was responsible.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:56 PM   #2346
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Very. NIST said unprecedented for a steel framed building over 15 storeys.
That was back in 2008 though.
Any others since ?

And re the column, just saying - it sticks out a lot and it's big.
I wonder what that hole was for - you any idea ?

ETA I just noticed that big hole in the mall at the 3rd from top level too.
There was a building in Iran.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:57 PM   #2347
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Very. NIST said unprecedented for a steel framed building over 15 storeys.

A 21-story steel-framed building had collapsed in Mexico City during an earthquake.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:57 PM   #2348
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
A person exactly like you was not born before you or has been since. Do you exist?
I suppose we're all little snowflakes in that sense.
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Old 31st January 2017, 05:59 PM   #2349
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
A 21-story steel-framed building had collapsed in Mexico City during an earthquake.
Yeah I think you asked me about that already, and this building did shake a fair bit according to the firefighters, before it collapsed. HOw long before it collapsed was the partial collapse said to have happened? I can't remember.
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Old 31st January 2017, 06:00 PM   #2350
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
There was a building in Iran.
Is it over 15 storeys ? You don't have to answer...
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Old 31st January 2017, 06:01 PM   #2351
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I suppose we're all little snowflakes in that sense.
True. Never before is not an argument for what can happen. It's an excuse to dismiss what has.
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Old 31st January 2017, 06:01 PM   #2352
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I conclude that I'm not sure what it is you're getting at. I haven't heard a "fire did it theory" yet. I am open to hearing one if you want to try...
Not sure what you mean about plates. If it's analogous, then no - there will be a main course only.

ETA did you watch the video beachnut ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss6Cv6kt7J4
Spielberg will be _______ himself !
Here's how the 'fire did it' theory works:

Fire did it.

One major bonus of this theory: it entirely removes the need for comically ill-suited UHF explosive packs that neither you nor anyone else has yet to provide evidence for.

Short refresher on how scientific method works:

1) Propose hypothesis
2) Test hypothesis

Let's start with you proposing a hypothesis that we can then 'test' the evidence against.

Rather than spending 20 pages at a time on details that may or may not be relevant to anything and with no frame of reference as to significance since they are not being considered for consistency with a proposed hypothesis.

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Old 31st January 2017, 06:02 PM   #2353
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Is it over 15 storeys ? You don't have to answer...
I forgot. Fire induced collapse has a magic floor number...........

You wonder why you're not taken seriously?
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Old 31st January 2017, 06:03 PM   #2354
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
... the only evidence I saw for internal damage pre collapse was the fire fighters needing rescued from the mid level floors on the west side.
What about you ?
Much seems to escape your attention in this thread. For example, did you not see earlier today this photo posted by Gamolon?

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...pszmocscab.jpg

Oh, no, wait: you did see it, because you replied in post#2219 to tell us it was the West face of the building, as we already knew.

The relevant detail is not the annotation but rather the windows at the lower left. Specifically you can see that you can look in through a West window of the 12th floor and see straight out through the North window of level 13. The floor on level 13 has gone. Likewise below, you can look in through 11 and out of 12. The floor on 12 has gone too.
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Old 31st January 2017, 06:05 PM   #2355
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Is that footing there with the rebar comin out of it a different one to what we were looking at earlier ? Looks very small in comparison. Can anyone help me place it ?
[quote=Jack by the hedge;11696493]

Sorry. I keep asking you guys stuff eh.
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Old 31st January 2017, 06:07 PM   #2356
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Beachnut - You seem to be a little hostile, if you don't mind me saying.

pgimeno - https://youtu.be/ESxcGZnFw9M?t=1m28s
Do you see the lines that I mean - sorry for my coarse drawing. I'm old and my eyesight ain't what it used to be.
Not from that video, no. But I think the correct video is the one you posted to Beachnut.

If so, then it seems to me that this would be the column you're referring to (assuming that the upper structure extends to the ground level). Can you please confirm? And then explain what about it?

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Old 31st January 2017, 06:09 PM   #2357
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Much seems to escape your attention in this thread. For example, did you not see earlier today this photo posted by Gamolon?

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...pszmocscab.jpg

Oh, no, wait: you did see it, because you replied in post#2219 to tell us it was the West face of the building, as we already knew.

The relevant detail is not the annotation but rather the windows at the lower left. Specifically you can see that you can look in through a West window of the 12th floor and see straight out through the North window of level 13. The floor on level 13 has gone. Likewise below, you can look in through 11 and out of 12. The floor on 12 has gone too.
This was only a few seconds before collapse I think, wasn't it ?
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Old 31st January 2017, 06:11 PM   #2358
beachnut
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
This was only a few seconds before collapse I think, wasn't it ?
http://www.ae911truth.org/images/PDF...01_20_2017.pdf

Wow, ae911t liars and nuts have got some "facts" wrong as they make up more fake news to go with their 10 Big Lies.
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Old 31st January 2017, 06:12 PM   #2359
MicahJava
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yay. Now we have magical heat resistant UHF receivers because you just need to invent them out of whole cloth to support the idiotic idea. Meanwhile, your fellow traveller MJ is proposing magic electrical cable while ignoring the fact that it only gets you 850C for five minutes. Not enough for Plasco, nor WTC in any way shape or form. Not to mention that det cord is nothing like electrical cable anyway.
850C for five minutes? What's the difference when there's videos of people melting smaller steel objects with said electrical cable?
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Old 31st January 2017, 06:15 PM   #2360
Jack by the hedge
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Very. NIST said unprecedented for a steel framed building over 15 storeys.
That was back in 2008 though.
Any others since ?
You're still defiantly missing the point: How unusual is it for steel framed buildings over 15 storeys to be ablaze for several hours?

Call that probability A.

How unusual is it for a building in that situation to collapse?

Call that probability B.


So the point is that probability A is very low. Very tall buildings, ablaze for hours, are really rare. And probability A x B is lower still - NIST called it unprecedented. But that doesn't mean that probability B is low.

So, given that we know 100% for a fact that condition A is met for the Plasco building, the chance of its collapsing is just probability B. But you keep talking about A x B. And that's why you are wasting time galloping around chasing imaginary imperceptible CD technologies.
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