[Continuation] Trans Women are not Women (Part 5) - Page 40

Emily's Cat · 22nd January 2021, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I think you're right, but the explanation may not be simply sexism (though that might contribute). I think there's an element that's similar to the vitriol that, say, black conservatives get above and beyond white conservatives.

If you're part of an in group that's supposed to support a specific ideology, then deviations from that ideology by members of that in group are treated as more of a threat than deviations by people not in that in group. The reasons for that are pretty obvious in terms of maintaining group cohesion to that ideology. Blacks are supposed to be Democrats. Women are supposed to fight against the patriarchy and sexual discrimination of any sort. They are in groups in regards to these ideologies. Your deviation is thus less tolerable than mine. It's not fair, but it's almost inevitable.

Good point. I'm going to have to go ahead and say that the TRAs are a bit wrong-headed about this. In your excellent analogy, black people who are conservative get crap because it is felt that they are betraying black people. If the same were applied here, one would say that women who don't kowtow to the trans agenda get crap because they aren't supporting other women.

And that's where it falls apart. A black conservative is still black, regardless of their politics and their value schema. But, as mentioned by the thread title... Transwomen are not women.

This whole situation is more like white democrats coming down on black democrats because the black democrats aren't being supportive enough of the feelings of white democrats.

theprestige · 22nd January 2021, 12:22 PM

I think the calculus is that women are a minority, and should be helping lift up other minorities, not pulling up the ladder and saying "I got mine; up yours."

Rolfe · 22nd January 2021, 01:52 PM

We're not a minority. There's more of us than there are of you.

Ziggurat · 22nd January 2021, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I think the calculus is that women are a minority

Originally Posted by Rolfe

We're not a minority.

You're a minority under the woke definition, which is any group that can claim oppression. Functional descriptiveness is less important to woke definitions than how they an be used to arrange things in the progressive stack.

theprestige · 22nd January 2021, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

We're not a minority. There's more of us than there are of you.

I never said it was a fact-based or internally consistent calculus. The wokeulus privilege field equations are even more mind-bending and counter-intuitive than quantum mechanics.

Rolfe · 22nd January 2021, 03:43 PM

I suppose "group historically subject to oppression does not equal minority" is the same sort of thing as "you know, everybody is ethnic to somewhere."

p0lka · 22nd January 2021, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You will be called a transphobe nonetheless.

Which makes no sense. Is one phobic to not allow able bodied people to compete in the Paralympics, for instance.

Rolfe · 22nd January 2021, 05:55 PM

But that's not the same thing at all, it's completely different [mumble, mumble...]

theprestige · 22nd January 2021, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Which makes no sense. Is one phobic to not allow able bodied people to compete in the Paralympics, for instance.

The wokeulus field equations aren't supposed to make sense. They're supposed to make policy without examination or dissent.

Elaedith · 22nd January 2021, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Which makes no sense. Is one phobic to not allow able bodied people to compete in the Paralympics, for instance.

It could be, if they genuinely identify as transabled but haven't undergone surgery. The deconstructionists are on it already, and I wouldn't underestimate them.

Rolfe · 22nd January 2021, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Elaedith

It could be, if they genuinely identify as transabled but haven't undergone surgery. The deconstructionists are on it already, and I wouldn't underestimate them.

I thought that was another Sokol until I saw the word "Canada". Now I'm genuinely uncertain.

p0lka · 22nd January 2021, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Elaedith

It could be, if they genuinely identify as transabled but haven't undergone surgery. The deconstructionists are on it already, and I wouldn't underestimate them.

"anti-ableist activists and transabled people".
I didn't even know that was a thing, what the blooming heck.

Ron Obvious · 22nd January 2021, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

"anti-ableist activists and transabled people".
I didn't even know that was a thing, what the blooming heck.

It seems a natural progression to me. Body dysphoria is no more ridiculous than gender dysphoria. I've no doubt they're genuine mental conditions, but why either condition should trump reality and demand catering to is a mystery to me in either case.

Sherkeu · 22nd January 2021, 07:46 PM

Interesting read on low dose testosterone cream's affect on young female performance.
Even with a small placebo effect in the control group, it was a pretty significant increase in endurance and lean muscle (after just 10 weeks). 8.5% better.

The levels stayed below the upper limit now set for female runners. (and way below what males have)

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...ce-study-shows

Article has the commentary but these are the results:

Quote:

Circulating levels of testosterone rose from 0.9 nmol/litre of blood to 4.3 nmol/L in the women given the hormone cream. This was below the recent 5 nmol/L IAAF limit and below the normal male range of 8-29 nmol/L.

Running time to exhaustion increased significantly by 21.17 seconds (8.5%) in the testosterone group, compared with those given the inactive substance. The group given the hormone also had significant changes in lean muscle mass, gaining 923g vs 135g overall and 398g vs 91g in their legs.

So thinking about non-binary female high school athletes (ie girls team), who identify as a bit more masculine, this might improve their well-being with more muscular lean body mass on their frame- closer to their internal sense of self.

Should they be allowed to use it if it was prescribed for them?
What would be the argument against it?

The Atheist · 22nd January 2021, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

It pains me to say it, but I still think there's a subconscious bias in there that allows males to have partial support and still be viewed as allies...

If Boudicca is an example of the norm, then I'd disagree.

I pointed out that I've worked for trans rights, at personal expense to myself, but because I draw a line, I'm a transphobe/TREF/whatever pejorative they choose to call me.

In Boudicca's mind and action, it's clearly all or nothing, and I have a strong suspicion she's quite typical of the trans activist stereotype they've developed for themselves.

Aber · 23rd January 2021, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

In Boudicca's mind and action, it's clearly all or nothing, and I have a strong suspicion she's quite typical of the trans activist stereotype they've developed for themselves.

I think it will vary by country.

The US seems dominated by "bathroom wars" (a simple question which invites an all or nothing approach), while the UK sees more discussion of wider issues such as womens' shelters and sports.

Rolfe · 23rd January 2021, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

So thinking about non-binary female high school athletes (ie girls team), who identify as a bit more masculine, this might improve their well-being with more muscular lean body mass on their frame- closer to their internal sense of self.

Should they be allowed to use it if it was prescribed for them?
What would be the argument against it?

No they shouldn't. It's a performance-enhancing drug, and it's banned. If athletes can be stripped of their medals and publicly shamed for using a nasal decongestant they didn't realise had a banned substance in it, and tested positive at a level which everybody agrees would not actually have affected their performance, additional testosterone should be a no-no under all circumstances.

And their "sense of self" has nothing to do with it. If you allow it, soon all female athletes will have to take it in order to remain competitive (assuming they're lucky enough to be competing against only females in the first place) and the entire sport will be nothing but a drug-takers' free for all.

Maybe the male and female events should be clarified as "anybody who has ever gone through male puberty and/or taken exogenous testosterone in whatever dose" and "everybody who hasn't".

Louden Wilde · 23rd January 2021, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I think you're right, but the explanation may not be simply sexism (though that might contribute). I think there's an element that's similar to the vitriol that, say, black conservatives get above and beyond white conservatives.

This is a good point. From what I've observed, I think there is also another (very human) reason why TRAs (that are transwomen themselves) have such vitriol towards adult human females: jealousy.

Louden Wilde · 23rd January 2021, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Maybe the male and female events should be clarified as "anybody who has ever gone through male puberty and/or taken exogenous testosterone in whatever dose" and "everybody who hasn't".

A good idea, there is evidence that going through male puberty confers an advantage, e.g. see this paper

Also - note that male development involves other androgens (besides testosterone) as well.

Rolfe · 23rd January 2021, 06:54 AM

Oh yes. Let's expand that to "has ever taken any exogenous androgenic steroid".

Sherkeu · 23rd January 2021, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

No they shouldn't. It's a performance-enhancing drug, and it's banned. If athletes can be stripped of their medals and publicly shamed for using a nasal decongestant they didn't realise had a banned substance in it, and tested positive at a level which everybody agrees would not actually have affected their performance, additional testosterone should be a no-no under all circumstances.

And their "sense of self" has nothing to do with it. If you allow it, soon all female athletes will have to take it in order to remain competitive (assuming they're lucky enough to be competing against only females in the first place) and the entire sport will be nothing but a drug-takers' free for all.

Maybe the male and female events should be clarified as "anybody who has ever gone through male puberty and/or taken exogenous testosterone in whatever dose" and "everybody who hasn't".

Agree. That's sort of my point in asking.
These "I identify as..." will get stickier with all the nuances in the ever popular 'non-binary' category.

How can a coach ban a female with a 4.3 level testosterone standing next to a male body 'girl' with a 20+ level of the same substance? Seems convoluted. They are both expressing their internal identity. It's supposed to be all about inclusiveness, right?

The critics say the testosterone doesnt really matter much,so what would be the reason to allow one and not the other? If they admit it is performance enhancing, then they admit they have someone on the same substance on the team- and for some reason that is A-OK. (natural or not, it's a high level that makes a difference...plus having the other beneficial male attributes.)

Ps. I am specifically speaking of high school since the recent White House verbage was directed at 'children'. Not college or after since they have more stringent rules. And I think your prediction could be spot on at some schools where this becomes popular. Some girls will be pressured to adapt to it using hormones.

d4m10n · 23rd January 2021, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Maybe the male and female events should be clarified as "anybody who has ever gone through male puberty and/or taken exogenous testosterone in whatever dose" and "everybody who hasn't".

It might be simpler to have one league for all those who've never taken exogenous testosterone or gone through male puberty, and another league that is open to all comers so long as they aren't currently using performance enhancing drugs (e.g. NHL).

Ziggurat · 23rd January 2021, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

It might be simpler to have one league for all those who've never taken exogenous testosterone or gone through male puberty, and another league that is open to all comers so long as they aren't currently using performance enhancing drugs (e.g. NHL).

There are some sports leagues that do something similar. They have an open category for anyone (no drugs, including testosterone), then restricted leagues based on certain criteria. That includes females (not "women"), older athletes ("masters") or younger athletes ("junior"). Anyone can enter the open, you can only enter restricted if you meet the criteria.

Elaedith · Yesterday, 02:36 PM

Interesting short interview with Dr David Bell (starting around 2.00), psychiatrist and former governor at the Tavistock who has just retired so can now speak freely. He was a whistleblower in 2018 and has been subject to 'disciplinary proceedings' since.

https://www.channel4.com/news/childr...staff-governor

The Atheist · Yesterday, 04:08 PM

They'll be gutted they can't apply for the death penalty for his heresy.

We should bring back burning at the stake straight away.

Rolfe · Yesterday, 05:17 PM

It amuses me to see the fervent trans-allies come on here and say they're just sort of trolling around watching the dinosaurs being hit by the asteroid and the New Dawn of our trans overlords approaching, when any fule can see that this ridiculous tide is gradually turning and it's going the way of frontal lobotomies and recovered memories eventually. (Not to mention tulip bulbs.)

Ron Obvious · Yesterday, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

... and it's going the way of frontal lobotomies and recovered memories eventually. (Not to mention tulip bulbs.)

Didn't multiple personality disorder and hypnosis fall from grace in recent years too?

Rolfe · Yesterday, 06:57 PM

And ritual satanic abuse.

You can brainwash some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but this nonsense requires the entire planet to accept a manifest absurdity and that isn't going to happen in the long term.

It's quite impressive how far they've got and it might take quite a while to row it back properly, but the writing is on the wall.

d4m10n · Yesterday, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

It's quite impressive how far they've got and it might take quite a while to row it back properly, but the writing is on the wall.

Where may we look to see it?

Rolfe · Yesterday, 07:54 PM

Recent events in the English courts are looking like the little cloud on the water, like a man's hand. If I may mix biblical metaphors. Puberty blockers have been banned for younger teenagers, and a recently-retired psychiatrist is currently singing like a canary about the harm that's being done to children by gender ideology.

22nd January 2021, 12:19 PM	#1561
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 13,760	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I think you're right, but the explanation may not be simply sexism (though that might contribute). I think there's an element that's similar to the vitriol that, say, black conservatives get above and beyond white conservatives. If you're part of an in group that's supposed to support a specific ideology, then deviations from that ideology by members of that in group are treated as more of a threat than deviations by people not in that in group. The reasons for that are pretty obvious in terms of maintaining group cohesion to that ideology. Blacks are supposed to be Democrats. Women are supposed to fight against the patriarchy and sexual discrimination of any sort. They are in groups in regards to these ideologies. Your deviation is thus less tolerable than mine. It's not fair, but it's almost inevitable. Good point. I'm going to have to go ahead and say that the TRAs are a bit wrong-headed about this. In your excellent analogy, black people who are conservative get crap because it is felt that they are betraying black people. If the same were applied here, one would say that women who don't kowtow to the trans agenda get crap because they aren't supporting other women. And that's where it falls apart. A black conservative is still black, regardless of their politics and their value schema. But, as mentioned by the thread title... Transwomen are not women. This whole situation is more like white democrats coming down on black democrats because the black democrats aren't being supportive enough of the feelings of white democrats.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

22nd January 2021, 01:52 PM	#1563
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,399	We're not a minority. There's more of us than there are of you.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

22nd January 2021, 02:19 PM	#1564
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,011	Originally Posted by theprestige I think the calculus is that women are a minority Originally Posted by Rolfe We're not a minority. You're a minority under the woke definition, which is any group that can claim oppression. Functional descriptiveness is less important to woke definitions than how they an be used to arrange things in the progressive stack.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

22nd January 2021, 03:43 PM	#1566
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,399	I suppose "group historically subject to oppression does not equal minority" is the same sort of thing as "you know, everybody is ethnic to somewhere."
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

22nd January 2021, 05:55 PM	#1568
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,399	But that's not the same thing at all, it's completely different [mumble, mumble...]
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

22nd January 2021, 12:22 PM	#1562
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,609	I think the calculus is that women are a minority, and should be helping lift up other minorities, not pulling up the ladder and saying "I got mine; up yours."

22nd January 2021, 02:40 PM	#1565
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,609	Originally Posted by Rolfe We're not a minority. There's more of us than there are of you. I never said it was a fact-based or internally consistent calculus. The wokeulus privilege field equations are even more mind-bending and counter-intuitive than quantum mechanics.

22nd January 2021, 05:52 PM	#1567
p0lka Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 2,174	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You will be called a transphobe nonetheless. Which makes no sense. Is one phobic to not allow able bodied people to compete in the Paralympics, for instance.

22nd January 2021, 06:19 PM	#1569
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,609	Originally Posted by p0lka Which makes no sense. Is one phobic to not allow able bodied people to compete in the Paralympics, for instance. The wokeulus field equations aren't supposed to make sense. They're supposed to make policy without examination or dissent.

22nd January 2021, 06:49 PM	#1570
Elaedith Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,383	Originally Posted by p0lka Which makes no sense. Is one phobic to not allow able bodied people to compete in the Paralympics, for instance. It could be, if they genuinely identify as transabled but haven't undergone surgery. The deconstructionists are on it already, and I wouldn't underestimate them.

22nd January 2021, 06:57 PM	#1571
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,399	Originally Posted by Elaedith It could be, if they genuinely identify as transabled but haven't undergone surgery. The deconstructionists are on it already, and I wouldn't underestimate them. I thought that was another Sokol until I saw the word "Canada". Now I'm genuinely uncertain.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

22nd January 2021, 07:27 PM	#1572
p0lka Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 2,174	Originally Posted by Elaedith It could be, if they genuinely identify as transabled but haven't undergone surgery. The deconstructionists are on it already, and I wouldn't underestimate them. "anti-ableist activists and transabled people". I didn't even know that was a thing, what the blooming heck.

22nd January 2021, 07:33 PM	#1573
Ron Obvious Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 381	Originally Posted by p0lka "anti-ableist activists and transabled people". I didn't even know that was a thing, what the blooming heck. It seems a natural progression to me. Body dysphoria is no more ridiculous than gender dysphoria. I've no doubt they're genuine mental conditions, but why either condition should trump reality and demand catering to is a mystery to me in either case.
	__________________ The beatings will continue until morale improves.

22nd January 2021, 07:46 PM	#1574
Sherkeu Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Disneyland Posts: 2,014	Interesting read on low dose testosterone cream's affect on young female performance. Even with a small placebo effect in the control group, it was a pretty significant increase in endurance and lean muscle (after just 10 weeks). 8.5% better. The levels stayed below the upper limit now set for female runners. (and way below what males have) https://www.theguardian.com/science/...ce-study-shows Article has the commentary but these are the results: Quote: Circulating levels of testosterone rose from 0.9 nmol/litre of blood to 4.3 nmol/L in the women given the hormone cream. This was below the recent 5 nmol/L IAAF limit and below the normal male range of 8-29 nmol/L. Running time to exhaustion increased significantly by 21.17 seconds (8.5%) in the testosterone group, compared with those given the inactive substance. The group given the hormone also had significant changes in lean muscle mass, gaining 923g vs 135g overall and 398g vs 91g in their legs. So thinking about non-binary female high school athletes (ie girls team), who identify as a bit more masculine, this might improve their well-being with more muscular lean body mass on their frame- closer to their internal sense of self. Should they be allowed to use it if it was prescribed for them? What would be the argument against it?

22nd January 2021, 08:26 PM	#1575
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,940	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat It pains me to say it, but I still think there's a subconscious bias in there that allows males to have partial support and still be viewed as allies... If Boudicca is an example of the norm, then I'd disagree. I pointed out that I've worked for trans rights, at personal expense to myself, but because I draw a line, I'm a transphobe/TREF/whatever pejorative they choose to call me. In Boudicca's mind and action, it's clearly all or nothing, and I have a strong suspicion she's quite typical of the trans activist stereotype they've developed for themselves.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

23rd January 2021, 01:53 AM	#1576
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,605	Originally Posted by The Atheist In Boudicca's mind and action, it's clearly all or nothing, and I have a strong suspicion she's quite typical of the trans activist stereotype they've developed for themselves. I think it will vary by country. The US seems dominated by "bathroom wars" (a simple question which invites an all or nothing approach), while the UK sees more discussion of wider issues such as womens' shelters and sports.
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,605

23rd January 2021, 06:26 AM	#1577
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,399	Originally Posted by Sherkeu So thinking about non-binary female high school athletes (ie girls team), who identify as a bit more masculine, this might improve their well-being with more muscular lean body mass on their frame- closer to their internal sense of self. Should they be allowed to use it if it was prescribed for them? What would be the argument against it? No they shouldn't. It's a performance-enhancing drug, and it's banned. If athletes can be stripped of their medals and publicly shamed for using a nasal decongestant they didn't realise had a banned substance in it, and tested positive at a level which everybody agrees would not actually have affected their performance, additional testosterone should be a no-no under all circumstances. And their "sense of self" has nothing to do with it. If you allow it, soon all female athletes will have to take it in order to remain competitive (assuming they're lucky enough to be competing against only females in the first place) and the entire sport will be nothing but a drug-takers' free for all. Maybe the male and female events should be clarified as "anybody who has ever gone through male puberty and/or taken exogenous testosterone in whatever dose" and "everybody who hasn't".
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

23rd January 2021, 06:36 AM	#1578
Louden Wilde Scholar Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: NYC Posts: 94	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I think you're right, but the explanation may not be simply sexism (though that might contribute). I think there's an element that's similar to the vitriol that, say, black conservatives get above and beyond white conservatives. This is a good point. From what I've observed, I think there is also another (very human) reason why TRAs (that are transwomen themselves) have such vitriol towards adult human females: jealousy.

23rd January 2021, 06:48 AM	#1579
Louden Wilde Scholar Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: NYC Posts: 94	Originally Posted by Rolfe Maybe the male and female events should be clarified as "anybody who has ever gone through male puberty and/or taken exogenous testosterone in whatever dose" and "everybody who hasn't". A good idea, there is evidence that going through male puberty confers an advantage, e.g. see this paper Also - note that male development involves other androgens (besides testosterone) as well.
	Last edited by Louden Wilde; 23rd January 2021 at 06:49 AM. Reason: typos, clarity

23rd January 2021, 06:54 AM	#1580
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,399	Oh yes. Let's expand that to "has ever taken any exogenous androgenic steroid".
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

23rd January 2021, 08:33 AM	#1581
Sherkeu Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Disneyland Posts: 2,014	Originally Posted by Rolfe No they shouldn't. It's a performance-enhancing drug, and it's banned. If athletes can be stripped of their medals and publicly shamed for using a nasal decongestant they didn't realise had a banned substance in it, and tested positive at a level which everybody agrees would not actually have affected their performance, additional testosterone should be a no-no under all circumstances. And their "sense of self" has nothing to do with it. If you allow it, soon all female athletes will have to take it in order to remain competitive (assuming they're lucky enough to be competing against only females in the first place) and the entire sport will be nothing but a drug-takers' free for all. Maybe the male and female events should be clarified as "anybody who has ever gone through male puberty and/or taken exogenous testosterone in whatever dose" and "everybody who hasn't". Agree. That's sort of my point in asking. These "I identify as..." will get stickier with all the nuances in the ever popular 'non-binary' category. How can a coach ban a female with a 4.3 level testosterone standing next to a male body 'girl' with a 20+ level of the same substance? Seems convoluted. They are both expressing their internal identity. It's supposed to be all about inclusiveness, right? The critics say the testosterone doesnt really matter much,so what would be the reason to allow one and not the other? If they admit it is performance enhancing, then they admit they have someone on the same substance on the team- and for some reason that is A-OK. (natural or not, it's a high level that makes a difference...plus having the other beneficial male attributes.) Ps. I am specifically speaking of high school since the recent White House verbage was directed at 'children'. Not college or after since they have more stringent rules. And I think your prediction could be spot on at some schools where this becomes popular. Some girls will be pressured to adapt to it using hormones.
	Last edited by Sherkeu; 23rd January 2021 at 08:35 AM.

23rd January 2021, 08:35 AM	#1582
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,079	Originally Posted by Rolfe Maybe the male and female events should be clarified as "anybody who has ever gone through male puberty and/or taken exogenous testosterone in whatever dose" and "everybody who hasn't". It might be simpler to have one league for all those who've never taken exogenous testosterone or gone through male puberty, and another league that is open to all comers so long as they aren't currently using performance enhancing drugs (e.g. NHL).
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

23rd January 2021, 09:27 AM	#1583
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,011	Originally Posted by d4m10n It might be simpler to have one league for all those who've never taken exogenous testosterone or gone through male puberty, and another league that is open to all comers so long as they aren't currently using performance enhancing drugs (e.g. NHL). There are some sports leagues that do something similar. They have an open category for anyone (no drugs, including testosterone), then restricted leagues based on certain criteria. That includes females (not "women"), older athletes ("masters") or younger athletes ("junior"). Anyone can enter the open, you can only enter restricted if you meet the criteria.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Yesterday, 02:36 PM	#1584
Elaedith Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,383	Interesting short interview with Dr David Bell (starting around 2.00), psychiatrist and former governor at the Tavistock who has just retired so can now speak freely. He was a whistleblower in 2018 and has been subject to 'disciplinary proceedings' since. https://www.channel4.com/news/childr...staff-governor

Yesterday, 04:08 PM	#1585
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,940	They'll be gutted they can't apply for the death penalty for his heresy. We should bring back burning at the stake straight away.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

Yesterday, 05:17 PM	#1586
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,399	It amuses me to see the fervent trans-allies come on here and say they're just sort of trolling around watching the dinosaurs being hit by the asteroid and the New Dawn of our trans overlords approaching, when any fule can see that this ridiculous tide is gradually turning and it's going the way of frontal lobotomies and recovered memories eventually. (Not to mention tulip bulbs.)
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Yesterday, 06:02 PM	#1587
Ron Obvious Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 381	Originally Posted by Rolfe ... and it's going the way of frontal lobotomies and recovered memories eventually. (Not to mention tulip bulbs.) Didn't multiple personality disorder and hypnosis fall from grace in recent years too?
	__________________ The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Yesterday, 06:57 PM	#1588
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,399	And ritual satanic abuse. You can brainwash some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but this nonsense requires the entire planet to accept a manifest absurdity and that isn't going to happen in the long term. It's quite impressive how far they've got and it might take quite a while to row it back properly, but the writing is on the wall.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Yesterday, 07:38 PM	#1589
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,079	Originally Posted by Rolfe It's quite impressive how far they've got and it might take quite a while to row it back properly, but the writing is on the wall. Where may we look to see it?
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin Last edited by d4m10n; Yesterday at 07:48 PM.

Yesterday, 07:54 PM	#1590
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,399	Recent events in the English courts are looking like the little cloud on the water, like a man's hand. If I may mix biblical metaphors. Puberty blockers have been banned for younger teenagers, and a recently-retired psychiatrist is currently singing like a canary about the harm that's being done to children by gender ideology.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.