Multiculturalism, does it work ?

Airfix · 17th February 2021, 06:08 AM

I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy.

BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ?

The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ?

Norman Alexander · 17th February 2021, 06:13 AM

Define "multiculturalism" such that everyone agrees with you.

erwinl · 17th February 2021, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy.

BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ?

The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ?

Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes?
What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you?
multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture.

The Don · 17th February 2021, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by erwinl

Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes?
What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you?
multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture.

Filthy foreign muck.

I stick to proper British dishes like Pizza, Curry, Sweet and Sour Pork and Fish and Chips.

Darat · 17th February 2021, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy.

BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ?

The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ?

You need to define what you mean by “multiculturalism”, then a discussion can happen, otherwise we might all be using a different meaning for multiculturalism.

Airfix · 17th February 2021, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by erwinl

Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes?
What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you?
multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture.

Not a fan of curries, I like Chinese takeaways.
When I'm abroad I eat locally, usually vegetarian.

I like your attitude regarding food and culture.

Cavemonster · 17th February 2021, 06:47 AM

I've noticed attacks on "multiculturalism" are making a comeback. I've seen similar "just asking questions" posts proliferating on reddit in the last month or so, with a similar tone that looks to be affecting neutrality but honestly makes me a bit suspect.

So I'm curious Airfix, what's got multiculturalism on your mind at this particular moment?

lomiller · 17th February 2021, 06:56 AM

IMO

If your children's culture is identical to your own you've failed as a parent. Culture serves as a method for adapting to the world and conditions around you, with the rapid changes in technology and lifestyle culture needs to evolve rapidly to keep up. You can show respect for the culture of your parents and grandparents and even adopt some parts of it but trying to follow it to closely is a recipe for failure. Conversely, the more sources they have to pick and choose from in developing their own culture, the more likely it is they will be well adapted to the wold they live it, so exposure to as many other cultures as possible is going to be beneficial.

With that in mind, what does it really matter if your neighbor has a different culture that you do? Your children will also have a different culture from you and their culture may resemble each others more than it resembles your own. If your neighbor comes from the same cultural background as you there are still ways to get that exposure.

Airfix · 17th February 2021, 07:06 AM

I'll say again I'm very pro multi-racialism.

If I'm anti anything, it's anti tribalism.
The idea that if someone thinks differently or does things differently, they're automatically "other" and the idea that "other" = bad, I oppose that kind of tribalism.

So long as people aren't tribalistic in their culture and they're not hurting anyone I don't mind what they do.

But some other people have different definitions.

I've never delved deeply into this subject, I'm not anti multiculturalism.

I guess I've a lot to learn, but through talking about it I can learn, can't I ?

Besides it's a completely different topic for discussion and diversity is good.

Chanakya · 17th February 2021, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy.

BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ?

The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ?

Is there any way to arrive at multiracialism and diversifying your gene pool, without also incorporating multiculturalism, with or without the scare quotes and the hyphens?

I can think of two hypothetical scenarios where you get multiracialism sans multiculturalism. One, everyone wears a straitjacket, that is fitted to some (state-mandated?) measurements, irrespective of people's personal size. And two, some kind of a breeding program, that is either white-jacket clinical, or else garish and porn-y. I don't think either of these two is likely to work outside of fiction, at least not in this day and age.

Darat · 17th February 2021, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

I've noticed attacks on "multiculturalism" are making a comeback. I've seen similar "just asking questions" posts proliferating on reddit in the last month or so, with a similar tone that looks to be affecting neutrality but honestly makes me a bit suspect.

So I'm curious Airfix, what's got multiculturalism on your mind at this particular moment?

That’s why I’ve asked for their definition. Often it is just a dog whistle for an attack on non “real British” ethnicities - especially those tied to Islam in popular culture.

(And I’m 100% not saying that is what Airfix is doing, simply explaining why it is important to start with a common definition.)

3point14 · 17th February 2021, 07:24 AM

Yes.

Happy to help.

Airfix · 17th February 2021, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Chanakya

Is there any way to arrive at multiracialism and diversifying your gene pool, without also incorporating multiculturalism, with or without the scare quotes and the hyphens?

I can think of two hypothetical scenarios where you get multiracialism sans multiculturalism. One, everyone wears a straitjacket, that is fitted to some (state-mandated?) measurements, irrespective of people's personal size. And two, some kind of a breeding program, that is either white-jacket clinical, or else garish and porn-y. I don't think either of these two is likely to work outside of fiction, at least not in this day and age.

Well argued.

Darat · 17th February 2021, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Yes.

Happy to help.

I suspect the use of “work” will also have to be defined!

Airfix - sorry if you think this is being pedantic but we do really need to know what definitions you are using for both “multiculturalism” and “work”.

3point14 · 17th February 2021, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I suspect the use of “work” will also have to be defined!

Airfix - sorry if you think this is being pedantic but we do really need to know what definitions you are using for both “multiculturalism” and “work”.

No, I'm happy to provide the answer to the question. Of course it works.

Of course it the OP wants to argue against that and provide their definitions to assist then perhaps there can be more discussion.

At the moment, I'm very happy with the answer 'yes', I think it covers the OP's query nicely.

EDIT
I often find that queries like this come from people who think things don't work and, rather than providing the reasons they believe as they do, they find it easier to try to shoot down the arguments of others. To avoid this, it's much easier just to answer the question plain and wait to see if there's any response.

Airfix · 17th February 2021, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I suspect the use of “work” will also have to be defined!

Airfix - sorry if you think this is being pedantic but we do really need to know what definitions you are using for both “multiculturalism” and “work”.

No it's alright, I really should have phrased the topic title better.
I should have just called the thread multiculturalism rather than asking the question after it.

Your post is valid, and I guess I don't know enough about written multicultural policy of either the Labour Party or the Conservatives to be more specific.

I should have phrased it better and should have done more research first.

I certainly didn't start this thread to bash immigrants.
Criticism accepted.

Darat · 17th February 2021, 07:44 AM

We know that since we’ve been congregating in settlements larger than a small village multiculturalism is the default in those societies. So the question should probably be around the lines of “is it possible to have large societies that aren’t multicultural?” And would such societies work better than what we have now?

ponderingturtle · 17th February 2021, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

We know that since we’ve been congregating in settlements larger than a small village multiculturalism is the default in those societies. So the question should probably be around the lines of “is it possible to have large societies that aren’t multicultural?” And would such societies work better than what we have now?

And what steps are useful to maintain cultural homogeneity.

dann · 17th February 2021, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by erwinl

Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes?
What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you?
multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture.

It's important that other countries are multicultural, so you don't have to bring your own food!

Originally Posted by The Don

Filthy foreign muck.
I stick to proper British dishes like Pizza, Curry, Sweet and Sour Pork and Fish and Chips.

You mean French fries?!

Airfix · 17th February 2021, 08:00 AM

In that respect it's not even possible to have counties that aren't multicultural.
Considering all the different dialects there are, and foods.

TragicMonkey · 17th February 2021, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

In that respect it's not even possible to have counties that aren't multicultural.
Considering all the different dialects there are, and foods.

Indeed. And countries that look like they have a monolithic culture from outside aren't really, they're composed of multiple cultures brought together over history.

pgwenthold · 17th February 2021, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

IMO

If your children's culture is identical to your own you've failed as a parent.

So much this, but it goes above and beyond culture.

When I was a new parent, I heard others talking about how they wanted to teach their kids "everything I know." I was like, screw that. I want to teach my kids the good things I know, maybe, but I want my kids to learn from others. Please.

The last thing I want to do is to restrict my kids to learning only what I know, I want them to experience so much more than I can give. Culture, knowledge, interests, whatever. I don't want them to be like me. They can be so much better.

Distracted1 · 17th February 2021, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Indeed. And countries that look like they have a monolithic culture from outside aren't really, they're composed of multiple cultures brought together over history.

You mean "assimilated" no?

Distracted1 · 17th February 2021, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

We know that since we’ve been congregating in settlements larger than a small village multiculturalism is the default in those societies. So the question should probably be around the lines of “is it possible to have large societies that aren’t multicultural?” And would such societies work better than what we have now?

Or perhaps, "Is Multiculturalism compatible with Democracy?".

"Majority rule" seems to be the opposite of "Cultural Plurality"

TragicMonkey · 17th February 2021, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

You mean "assimilated" no?

No. A lot of cultures remain distinct even when brought into a civilization with others. Most societies are more like salads than "melting pots".

Cavemonster · 17th February 2021, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

No it's alright, I really should have phrased the topic title better.
I should have just called the thread multiculturalism rather than asking the question after it.

Your post is valid, and I guess I don't know enough about written multicultural policy of either the Labour Party or the Conservatives to be more specific.

I should have phrased it better and should have done more research first.

I certainly didn't start this thread to bash immigrants.
Criticism accepted.

Airfix, I appreciate that your tone seems very sincere and openminded.
But you've also been directly asked to define "multiculturalism" as you're referring to it multiple times and replied without supplying your definition.

Do you not have a working definition of the term?

Why not answer a very simple and straightforward question?

If you don't have a definition, what did you mean to discuss when starting this thread?

Vixen · 17th February 2021, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

Airfix, I appreciate that your tone seems very sincere and openminded.
But you've also been directly asked to define "multiculturalism" as you're referring to it multiple times and replied without supplying your definition.

Do you not have a working definition of the term?

Why not answer a very simple and straightforward question?

If you don't have a definition, what did you mean to discuss when starting this thread?

I'm willing to bet it includes the word 'Muslim'.

Distracted1 · 17th February 2021, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

No. A lot of cultures remain distinct even when brought into a civilization with others. Most societies are more like salads than "melting pots".

I don't believe that.
I'll go as far as "lumpy mashed potatoes", but not "Salads".

Cavemonster · 17th February 2021, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

I don't believe that.
I'll go as far as "lumpy mashed potatoes", but not "Salads".

As long as we're really digging into the metaphor, you realize that the lumps in mashed potato are still the same ingredients right? It's all potato. I suppose there might me cream or butter in there, but that's totally assimilated.

Regardless of how distinct you might think cultures remain, there is only a singular substance in all the lumps in lumpy mash and it's the same substance as there is in the smooth parts.

Lplus · 18th February 2021, 02:18 AM

Before you can define multicultural, you need to define culture.

To me a culture is not food, or music or hairstyles or any other superficial rubbish like that, it's the basic rules/systems by which people interact.

Government, judicial and legal system, policing system, financial system, education, respect for(or not) private property, etc.

Note, I don't include religion per se, though some religions do have a significant impact on the basic rules outlined above.

If an incoming culture has radically different basic rules to the incumbent culture, then trouble is likely to arise - unless the incoming people are prepared to change the more radical differences. Of course you might then say that the incumbents should change, but that seems perverse in the extreme.

cullennz · 18th February 2021, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Not a fan of curries, I like Chinese takeaways.
When I'm abroad I eat locally, usually vegetarian.

I like your attitude regarding food and culture.

I think I can see the root issue here.

Mods. We should have a panic button for when posters type such travesty as this.

Darat · 18th February 2021, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Or perhaps, "Is Multiculturalism compatible with Democracy?".

"Majority rule" seems to be the opposite of "Cultural Plurality"

Every actual democracy in the world is a multicultural society and all have been throughout their democratic history so the answer is yes.

Darat · 18th February 2021, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by Lplus

Before you can define multicultural, you need to define culture.

To me a culture is not food, or music or hairstyles or any other superficial rubbish like that, it's the basic rules/systems by which people interact.

Government, judicial and legal system, policing system, financial system, education, respect for(or not) private property, etc.

Note, I don't include religion per se, though some religions do have a significant impact on the basic rules outlined above.

If an incoming culture has radically different basic rules to the incumbent culture, then trouble is likely to arise - unless the incoming people are prepared to change the more radical differences. Of course you might then say that the incumbents should change, but that seems perverse in the extreme.

Why are all the dogs in my street barking?

The Great Zaganza · 18th February 2021, 02:57 AM

the real question is; does monoculturalism work better?

The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers.

Lplus · 18th February 2021, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

the real question is; does monoculturalism work better?

The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers.

Just because they aren't native doesn't mean they don't subscribe to the prevailing culture. Culture is not tribe.

Lplus · 18th February 2021, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Why are all the dogs in my street barking?

A cool insult, but it does nothing to detail your logical objections.

Darat · 18th February 2021, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

the real question is; does monoculturalism work better?

The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers.

This is what I was concerned about, the assumption that multiculturalism is only about non-native people. Even without one new person coming into the U.K. since say 1900 the U.K. would still be a multicultural society and country.

cullennz · 18th February 2021, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

the real question is; does monoculturalism work better?

The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers.

I am curious to what your definition of non-native is.

White people if you are going back that far.?

Past immigration?

If so how far?

Is some one whose great grandad moved there 100 years ago and their parents and grand parents were born in the US are they non native?

Or their grandad?

Or their parents moved their and again they themselves were born in the US?

Or they weren't born in the US and have moved over themselves?

cullennz · 18th February 2021, 03:22 AM

I guess the answer would be if no other of the multiple countries had ever discovered then rocked on over to the US, the native Americans would probably not have the same tech we have now.

Darat · 18th February 2021, 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lplus

A cool insult, but it does nothing to detail your logical objections.

Because there is nothing else to refute with what you have posted.

You are obviously using multiculturalism in the way racists and other bigots use the word. This is why I was asking about the definitions used right at the beginning of this thread.

All culture means (in the sense of human societies) is:

“…. the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people …..”

All multicultural means is the plural of the above or

“….the presence of, or support for the presence of, several distinct cultural or ethnic groups within a society….“

Every democratic country in the world has been and is a multicultural society.

It is probably not possible to have any large cooperative grouping of humans - i.e. a society that isn’t multicultural.

To argue against multiculturalism is analogous to arguing water shouldn’t be wet as multiculturalism is the default for congregating humans.

17th February 2021, 06:08 AM	#1
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Multiculturalism, does it work ? I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy. BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ? The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ?
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979

17th February 2021, 06:13 AM	#2
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,806	Define "multiculturalism" such that everyone agrees with you.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th February 2021, 06:26 AM	#3
erwinl Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,749	Originally Posted by Airfix I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy. BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ? The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ? Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes? What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you? multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture.
erwinl Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,749	__________________ Bow before your king Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"

17th February 2021, 06:38 AM	#5
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,108	Originally Posted by Airfix I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy. BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ? The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ? You need to define what you mean by “multiculturalism”, then a discussion can happen, otherwise we might all be using a different meaning for multiculturalism.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

17th February 2021, 06:41 AM	#6
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Originally Posted by erwinl Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes? What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you? multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture. Not a fan of curries, I like Chinese takeaways. When I'm abroad I eat locally, usually vegetarian. I like your attitude regarding food and culture.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979

17th February 2021, 06:34 AM	#4
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,367	Originally Posted by erwinl Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes? What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you? multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture. Filthy foreign muck. I stick to proper British dishes like Pizza, Curry, Sweet and Sour Pork and Fish and Chips.

17th February 2021, 06:47 AM	#7
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,538	I've noticed attacks on "multiculturalism" are making a comeback. I've seen similar "just asking questions" posts proliferating on reddit in the last month or so, with a similar tone that looks to be affecting neutrality but honestly makes me a bit suspect. So I'm curious Airfix, what's got multiculturalism on your mind at this particular moment?
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,538	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

17th February 2021, 06:56 AM	#8
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	IMO If your children's culture is identical to your own you've failed as a parent. Culture serves as a method for adapting to the world and conditions around you, with the rapid changes in technology and lifestyle culture needs to evolve rapidly to keep up. You can show respect for the culture of your parents and grandparents and even adopt some parts of it but trying to follow it to closely is a recipe for failure. Conversely, the more sources they have to pick and choose from in developing their own culture, the more likely it is they will be well adapted to the wold they live it, so exposure to as many other cultures as possible is going to be beneficial. With that in mind, what does it really matter if your neighbor has a different culture that you do? Your children will also have a different culture from you and their culture may resemble each others more than it resembles your own. If your neighbor comes from the same cultural background as you there are still ways to get that exposure.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

17th February 2021, 07:06 AM	#9
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	I'll say again I'm very pro multi-racialism. If I'm anti anything, it's anti tribalism. The idea that if someone thinks differently or does things differently, they're automatically "other" and the idea that "other" = bad, I oppose that kind of tribalism. So long as people aren't tribalistic in their culture and they're not hurting anyone I don't mind what they do. But some other people have different definitions. I've never delved deeply into this subject, I'm not anti multiculturalism. I guess I've a lot to learn, but through talking about it I can learn, can't I ? Besides it's a completely different topic for discussion and diversity is good.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Last edited by Airfix; 17th February 2021 at 07:08 AM.

17th February 2021, 07:10 AM	#10
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,602	Originally Posted by Airfix I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy. BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ? The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ? Is there any way to arrive at multiracialism and diversifying your gene pool, without also incorporating multiculturalism, with or without the scare quotes and the hyphens? I can think of two hypothetical scenarios where you get multiracialism sans multiculturalism. One, everyone wears a straitjacket, that is fitted to some (state-mandated?) measurements, irrespective of people's personal size. And two, some kind of a breeding program, that is either white-jacket clinical, or else garish and porn-y. I don't think either of these two is likely to work outside of fiction, at least not in this day and age.
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,602

17th February 2021, 07:11 AM	#11
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,108	Originally Posted by Cavemonster I've noticed attacks on "multiculturalism" are making a comeback. I've seen similar "just asking questions" posts proliferating on reddit in the last month or so, with a similar tone that looks to be affecting neutrality but honestly makes me a bit suspect. So I'm curious Airfix, what's got multiculturalism on your mind at this particular moment? That’s why I’ve asked for their definition. Often it is just a dog whistle for an attack on non “real British” ethnicities - especially those tied to Islam in popular culture. (And I’m 100% not saying that is what Airfix is doing, simply explaining why it is important to start with a common definition.)
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

17th February 2021, 07:24 AM	#12
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	Yes. Happy to help.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

17th February 2021, 07:25 AM	#13
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Originally Posted by Chanakya Is there any way to arrive at multiracialism and diversifying your gene pool, without also incorporating multiculturalism, with or without the scare quotes and the hyphens? I can think of two hypothetical scenarios where you get multiracialism sans multiculturalism. One, everyone wears a straitjacket, that is fitted to some (state-mandated?) measurements, irrespective of people's personal size. And two, some kind of a breeding program, that is either white-jacket clinical, or else garish and porn-y. I don't think either of these two is likely to work outside of fiction, at least not in this day and age. Well argued.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979

17th February 2021, 07:27 AM	#14
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,108	Originally Posted by 3point14 Yes. Happy to help. I suspect the use of “work” will also have to be defined! Airfix - sorry if you think this is being pedantic but we do really need to know what definitions you are using for both “multiculturalism” and “work”.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

17th February 2021, 07:31 AM	#15
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	Originally Posted by Darat I suspect the use of “work” will also have to be defined! Airfix - sorry if you think this is being pedantic but we do really need to know what definitions you are using for both “multiculturalism” and “work”. No, I'm happy to provide the answer to the question. Of course it works. Of course it the OP wants to argue against that and provide their definitions to assist then perhaps there can be more discussion. At the moment, I'm very happy with the answer 'yes', I think it covers the OP's query nicely. EDIT I often find that queries like this come from people who think things don't work and, rather than providing the reasons they believe as they do, they find it easier to try to shoot down the arguments of others. To avoid this, it's much easier just to answer the question plain and wait to see if there's any response.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] Last edited by 3point14; 17th February 2021 at 07:34 AM.

17th February 2021, 07:37 AM	#16
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Originally Posted by Darat I suspect the use of “work” will also have to be defined! Airfix - sorry if you think this is being pedantic but we do really need to know what definitions you are using for both “multiculturalism” and “work”. No it's alright, I really should have phrased the topic title better. I should have just called the thread multiculturalism rather than asking the question after it. Your post is valid, and I guess I don't know enough about written multicultural policy of either the Labour Party or the Conservatives to be more specific. I should have phrased it better and should have done more research first. I certainly didn't start this thread to bash immigrants. Criticism accepted.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979

17th February 2021, 07:44 AM	#17
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,108	We know that since we’ve been congregating in settlements larger than a small village multiculturalism is the default in those societies. So the question should probably be around the lines of “is it possible to have large societies that aren’t multicultural?” And would such societies work better than what we have now?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

17th February 2021, 07:46 AM	#18
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,461	Originally Posted by Darat We know that since we’ve been congregating in settlements larger than a small village multiculturalism is the default in those societies. So the question should probably be around the lines of “is it possible to have large societies that aren’t multicultural?” And would such societies work better than what we have now? And what steps are useful to maintain cultural homogeneity.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

17th February 2021, 08:00 AM	#19
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,617	Originally Posted by erwinl Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes? What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you? multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture. It's important that other countries are multicultural, so you don't have to bring your own food! Originally Posted by The Don Filthy foreign muck. I stick to proper British dishes like Pizza, Curry, Sweet and Sour Pork and Fish and Chips. You mean French fries?!
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

17th February 2021, 08:03 AM	#21
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,514	Originally Posted by Airfix In that respect it's not even possible to have counties that aren't multicultural. Considering all the different dialects there are, and foods. Indeed. And countries that look like they have a monolithic culture from outside aren't really, they're composed of multiple cultures brought together over history.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

17th February 2021, 08:08 AM	#22
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,133	Originally Posted by lomiller IMO If your children's culture is identical to your own you've failed as a parent. So much this, but it goes above and beyond culture. When I was a new parent, I heard others talking about how they wanted to teach their kids "everything I know." I was like, screw that. I want to teach my kids the good things I know, maybe, but I want my kids to learn from others. Please. The last thing I want to do is to restrict my kids to learning only what I know, I want them to experience so much more than I can give. Culture, knowledge, interests, whatever. I don't want them to be like me. They can be so much better.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

17th February 2021, 09:31 AM	#23
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,535	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Indeed. And countries that look like they have a monolithic culture from outside aren't really, they're composed of multiple cultures brought together over history. You mean "assimilated" no?
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

17th February 2021, 09:34 AM	#24
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,535	Originally Posted by Darat We know that since we’ve been congregating in settlements larger than a small village multiculturalism is the default in those societies. So the question should probably be around the lines of “is it possible to have large societies that aren’t multicultural?” And would such societies work better than what we have now? Or perhaps, "Is Multiculturalism compatible with Democracy?". "Majority rule" seems to be the opposite of "Cultural Plurality"
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

17th February 2021, 09:44 AM	#25
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,514	Originally Posted by Distracted1 You mean "assimilated" no? No. A lot of cultures remain distinct even when brought into a civilization with others. Most societies are more like salads than "melting pots".
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

17th February 2021, 09:49 AM	#26
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,538	Originally Posted by Airfix No it's alright, I really should have phrased the topic title better. I should have just called the thread multiculturalism rather than asking the question after it. Your post is valid, and I guess I don't know enough about written multicultural policy of either the Labour Party or the Conservatives to be more specific. I should have phrased it better and should have done more research first. I certainly didn't start this thread to bash immigrants. Criticism accepted. Airfix, I appreciate that your tone seems very sincere and openminded. But you've also been directly asked to define "multiculturalism" as you're referring to it multiple times and replied without supplying your definition. Do you not have a working definition of the term? Why not answer a very simple and straightforward question? If you don't have a definition, what did you mean to discuss when starting this thread?
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,538	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

17th February 2021, 10:02 AM	#27
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,894	Originally Posted by Cavemonster Airfix, I appreciate that your tone seems very sincere and openminded. But you've also been directly asked to define "multiculturalism" as you're referring to it multiple times and replied without supplying your definition. Do you not have a working definition of the term? Why not answer a very simple and straightforward question? If you don't have a definition, what did you mean to discuss when starting this thread? I'm willing to bet it includes the word 'Muslim'.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

17th February 2021, 10:04 AM	#28
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,535	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey No. A lot of cultures remain distinct even when brought into a civilization with others. Most societies are more like salads than "melting pots". I don't believe that. I'll go as far as "lumpy mashed potatoes", but not "Salads".
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

17th February 2021, 10:17 AM	#29
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,538	Originally Posted by Distracted1 I don't believe that. I'll go as far as "lumpy mashed potatoes", but not "Salads". As long as we're really digging into the metaphor, you realize that the lumps in mashed potato are still the same ingredients right? It's all potato. I suppose there might me cream or butter in there, but that's totally assimilated. Regardless of how distinct you might think cultures remain, there is only a singular substance in all the lumps in lumpy mash and it's the same substance as there is in the smooth parts.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,538	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

18th February 2021, 02:18 AM	#30
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 587	Before you can define multicultural, you need to define culture. To me a culture is not food, or music or hairstyles or any other superficial rubbish like that, it's the basic rules/systems by which people interact. Government, judicial and legal system, policing system, financial system, education, respect for(or not) private property, etc. Note, I don't include religion per se, though some religions do have a significant impact on the basic rules outlined above. If an incoming culture has radically different basic rules to the incumbent culture, then trouble is likely to arise - unless the incoming people are prepared to change the more radical differences. Of course you might then say that the incumbents should change, but that seems perverse in the extreme.
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 587	__________________ Those who are most fanatical in their condemnation of others are often mortally afraid that, in their deepest subconcious, they agree with those who they are condemning. Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.

18th February 2021, 02:25 AM	#31
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NZ Posts: 19,832	Originally Posted by Airfix Not a fan of curries, I like Chinese takeaways. When I'm abroad I eat locally, usually vegetarian. I like your attitude regarding food and culture. I think I can see the root issue here. Mods. We should have a panic button for when posters type such travesty as this.
	__________________ "I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044

18th February 2021, 02:51 AM	#32
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,108	Originally Posted by Distracted1 Or perhaps, "Is Multiculturalism compatible with Democracy?". "Majority rule" seems to be the opposite of "Cultural Plurality" Every actual democracy in the world is a multicultural society and all have been throughout their democratic history so the answer is yes.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

18th February 2021, 02:54 AM	#33
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,108	Originally Posted by Lplus Before you can define multicultural, you need to define culture. To me a culture is not food, or music or hairstyles or any other superficial rubbish like that, it's the basic rules/systems by which people interact. Government, judicial and legal system, policing system, financial system, education, respect for(or not) private property, etc. Note, I don't include religion per se, though some religions do have a significant impact on the basic rules outlined above. If an incoming culture has radically different basic rules to the incumbent culture, then trouble is likely to arise - unless the incoming people are prepared to change the more radical differences. Of course you might then say that the incumbents should change, but that seems perverse in the extreme. Why are all the dogs in my street barking?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

18th February 2021, 02:57 AM	#34
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,683	the real question is; does monoculturalism work better? The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

18th February 2021, 03:10 AM	#35
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 587	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza the real question is; does monoculturalism work better? The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers. Just because they aren't native doesn't mean they don't subscribe to the prevailing culture. Culture is not tribe.
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 587	__________________ Those who are most fanatical in their condemnation of others are often mortally afraid that, in their deepest subconcious, they agree with those who they are condemning. Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.

18th February 2021, 03:12 AM	#36
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 587	Originally Posted by Darat Why are all the dogs in my street barking? A cool insult, but it does nothing to detail your logical objections.
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 587	__________________ Those who are most fanatical in their condemnation of others are often mortally afraid that, in their deepest subconcious, they agree with those who they are condemning. Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.