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Old 17th February 2021, 06:08 AM   #1
Airfix
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Multiculturalism, does it work ?

I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy.

BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ?

The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ?
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Old 17th February 2021, 06:13 AM   #2
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Define "multiculturalism" such that everyone agrees with you.
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Old 17th February 2021, 06:26 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy.

BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ?

The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ?
Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes?
What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you?
multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture.
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Old 17th February 2021, 06:34 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes?
What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you?
multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture.
Filthy foreign muck.

I stick to proper British dishes like Pizza, Curry, Sweet and Sour Pork and Fish and Chips.
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Old 17th February 2021, 06:38 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy.

BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ?

The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ?
You need to define what you mean by “multiculturalism”, then a discussion can happen, otherwise we might all be using a different meaning for multiculturalism.
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Old 17th February 2021, 06:41 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes?
What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you?
multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture.
Not a fan of curries, I like Chinese takeaways.
When I'm abroad I eat locally, usually vegetarian.

I like your attitude regarding food and culture.
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Old 17th February 2021, 06:47 AM   #7
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I've noticed attacks on "multiculturalism" are making a comeback. I've seen similar "just asking questions" posts proliferating on reddit in the last month or so, with a similar tone that looks to be affecting neutrality but honestly makes me a bit suspect.

So I'm curious Airfix, what's got multiculturalism on your mind at this particular moment?
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Old 17th February 2021, 06:56 AM   #8
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IMO

If your children's culture is identical to your own you've failed as a parent. Culture serves as a method for adapting to the world and conditions around you, with the rapid changes in technology and lifestyle culture needs to evolve rapidly to keep up. You can show respect for the culture of your parents and grandparents and even adopt some parts of it but trying to follow it to closely is a recipe for failure. Conversely, the more sources they have to pick and choose from in developing their own culture, the more likely it is they will be well adapted to the wold they live it, so exposure to as many other cultures as possible is going to be beneficial.

With that in mind, what does it really matter if your neighbor has a different culture that you do? Your children will also have a different culture from you and their culture may resemble each others more than it resembles your own. If your neighbor comes from the same cultural background as you there are still ways to get that exposure.
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:06 AM   #9
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I'll say again I'm very pro multi-racialism.

If I'm anti anything, it's anti tribalism.
The idea that if someone thinks differently or does things differently, they're automatically "other" and the idea that "other" = bad, I oppose that kind of tribalism.

So long as people aren't tribalistic in their culture and they're not hurting anyone I don't mind what they do.

But some other people have different definitions.

I've never delved deeply into this subject, I'm not anti multiculturalism.

I guess I've a lot to learn, but through talking about it I can learn, can't I ?

Besides it's a completely different topic for discussion and diversity is good.

Last edited by Airfix; 17th February 2021 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:10 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I totally believe in multi-racialism, it diversifies the gene pool, which is healthy.

BUT does "multiculturalism" work? Or does it green light tribalism, sectarianism and division ?

The policy of "multiculturalism" has critics, Salman Rushdie, Maajid Nawaz and others, but what do you think ?

Is there any way to arrive at multiracialism and diversifying your gene pool, without also incorporating multiculturalism, with or without the scare quotes and the hyphens?

I can think of two hypothetical scenarios where you get multiracialism sans multiculturalism. One, everyone wears a straitjacket, that is fitted to some (state-mandated?) measurements, irrespective of people's personal size. And two, some kind of a breeding program, that is either white-jacket clinical, or else garish and porn-y. I don't think either of these two is likely to work outside of fiction, at least not in this day and age.
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:11 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I've noticed attacks on "multiculturalism" are making a comeback. I've seen similar "just asking questions" posts proliferating on reddit in the last month or so, with a similar tone that looks to be affecting neutrality but honestly makes me a bit suspect.

So I'm curious Airfix, what's got multiculturalism on your mind at this particular moment?
That’s why I’ve asked for their definition. Often it is just a dog whistle for an attack on non “real British” ethnicities - especially those tied to Islam in popular culture.

(And I’m 100% not saying that is what Airfix is doing, simply explaining why it is important to start with a common definition.)
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:24 AM   #12
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Yes.

Happy to help.
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:25 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Is there any way to arrive at multiracialism and diversifying your gene pool, without also incorporating multiculturalism, with or without the scare quotes and the hyphens?

I can think of two hypothetical scenarios where you get multiracialism sans multiculturalism. One, everyone wears a straitjacket, that is fitted to some (state-mandated?) measurements, irrespective of people's personal size. And two, some kind of a breeding program, that is either white-jacket clinical, or else garish and porn-y. I don't think either of these two is likely to work outside of fiction, at least not in this day and age.
Well argued.
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:27 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yes.

Happy to help.
I suspect the use of “work” will also have to be defined!

Airfix - sorry if you think this is being pedantic but we do really need to know what definitions you are using for both “multiculturalism” and “work”.
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I suspect the use of “work” will also have to be defined!

Airfix - sorry if you think this is being pedantic but we do really need to know what definitions you are using for both “multiculturalism” and “work”.
No, I'm happy to provide the answer to the question. Of course it works.

Of course it the OP wants to argue against that and provide their definitions to assist then perhaps there can be more discussion.

At the moment, I'm very happy with the answer 'yes', I think it covers the OP's query nicely.


EDIT
I often find that queries like this come from people who think things don't work and, rather than providing the reasons they believe as they do, they find it easier to try to shoot down the arguments of others. To avoid this, it's much easier just to answer the question plain and wait to see if there's any response.
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:37 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I suspect the use of “work” will also have to be defined!

Airfix - sorry if you think this is being pedantic but we do really need to know what definitions you are using for both “multiculturalism” and “work”.
No it's alright, I really should have phrased the topic title better.
I should have just called the thread multiculturalism rather than asking the question after it.

Your post is valid, and I guess I don't know enough about written multicultural policy of either the Labour Party or the Conservatives to be more specific.

I should have phrased it better and should have done more research first.

I certainly didn't start this thread to bash immigrants.
Criticism accepted.
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:44 AM   #17
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We know that since we’ve been congregating in settlements larger than a small village multiculturalism is the default in those societies. So the question should probably be around the lines of “is it possible to have large societies that aren’t multicultural?” And would such societies work better than what we have now?
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Old 17th February 2021, 07:46 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We know that since we’ve been congregating in settlements larger than a small village multiculturalism is the default in those societies. So the question should probably be around the lines of “is it possible to have large societies that aren’t multicultural?” And would such societies work better than what we have now?
And what steps are useful to maintain cultural homogeneity.
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Old 17th February 2021, 08:00 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Do you ever eat curries or only potatoes?
What do you eat whenever you go abroad? Local, or do you take your own food with you?
multiculturalism has many facets, but food is by far the easiest way to participate in another culture.

It's important that other countries are multicultural, so you don't have to bring your own food!

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Filthy foreign muck.
I stick to proper British dishes like Pizza, Curry, Sweet and Sour Pork and Fish and Chips.

You mean French fries?!
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Old 17th February 2021, 08:00 AM   #20
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In that respect it's not even possible to have counties that aren't multicultural.
Considering all the different dialects there are, and foods.
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Old 17th February 2021, 08:03 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
In that respect it's not even possible to have counties that aren't multicultural.
Considering all the different dialects there are, and foods.
Indeed. And countries that look like they have a monolithic culture from outside aren't really, they're composed of multiple cultures brought together over history.
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Old 17th February 2021, 08:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
IMO

If your children's culture is identical to your own you've failed as a parent.
So much this, but it goes above and beyond culture.

When I was a new parent, I heard others talking about how they wanted to teach their kids "everything I know." I was like, screw that. I want to teach my kids the good things I know, maybe, but I want my kids to learn from others. Please.

The last thing I want to do is to restrict my kids to learning only what I know, I want them to experience so much more than I can give. Culture, knowledge, interests, whatever. I don't want them to be like me. They can be so much better.
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Old 17th February 2021, 09:31 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Indeed. And countries that look like they have a monolithic culture from outside aren't really, they're composed of multiple cultures brought together over history.
You mean "assimilated" no?
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Old 17th February 2021, 09:34 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We know that since we’ve been congregating in settlements larger than a small village multiculturalism is the default in those societies. So the question should probably be around the lines of “is it possible to have large societies that aren’t multicultural?” And would such societies work better than what we have now?
Or perhaps, "Is Multiculturalism compatible with Democracy?".

"Majority rule" seems to be the opposite of "Cultural Plurality"
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Old 17th February 2021, 09:44 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You mean "assimilated" no?
No. A lot of cultures remain distinct even when brought into a civilization with others. Most societies are more like salads than "melting pots".
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Old 17th February 2021, 09:49 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
No it's alright, I really should have phrased the topic title better.
I should have just called the thread multiculturalism rather than asking the question after it.

Your post is valid, and I guess I don't know enough about written multicultural policy of either the Labour Party or the Conservatives to be more specific.

I should have phrased it better and should have done more research first.

I certainly didn't start this thread to bash immigrants.
Criticism accepted.
Airfix, I appreciate that your tone seems very sincere and openminded.
But you've also been directly asked to define "multiculturalism" as you're referring to it multiple times and replied without supplying your definition.

Do you not have a working definition of the term?

Why not answer a very simple and straightforward question?

If you don't have a definition, what did you mean to discuss when starting this thread?
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Old 17th February 2021, 10:02 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Airfix, I appreciate that your tone seems very sincere and openminded.
But you've also been directly asked to define "multiculturalism" as you're referring to it multiple times and replied without supplying your definition.

Do you not have a working definition of the term?

Why not answer a very simple and straightforward question?

If you don't have a definition, what did you mean to discuss when starting this thread?
I'm willing to bet it includes the word 'Muslim'.
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Old 17th February 2021, 10:04 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
No. A lot of cultures remain distinct even when brought into a civilization with others. Most societies are more like salads than "melting pots".
I don't believe that.
I'll go as far as "lumpy mashed potatoes", but not "Salads".
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Old 17th February 2021, 10:17 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I don't believe that.
I'll go as far as "lumpy mashed potatoes", but not "Salads".
As long as we're really digging into the metaphor, you realize that the lumps in mashed potato are still the same ingredients right? It's all potato. I suppose there might me cream or butter in there, but that's totally assimilated.

Regardless of how distinct you might think cultures remain, there is only a singular substance in all the lumps in lumpy mash and it's the same substance as there is in the smooth parts.
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Old 18th February 2021, 02:18 AM   #30
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Before you can define multicultural, you need to define culture.

To me a culture is not food, or music or hairstyles or any other superficial rubbish like that, it's the basic rules/systems by which people interact.

Government, judicial and legal system, policing system, financial system, education, respect for(or not) private property, etc.

Note, I don't include religion per se, though some religions do have a significant impact on the basic rules outlined above.

If an incoming culture has radically different basic rules to the incumbent culture, then trouble is likely to arise - unless the incoming people are prepared to change the more radical differences. Of course you might then say that the incumbents should change, but that seems perverse in the extreme.
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Old 18th February 2021, 02:25 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Not a fan of curries, I like Chinese takeaways.
When I'm abroad I eat locally, usually vegetarian.

I like your attitude regarding food and culture.
I think I can see the root issue here.

Mods. We should have a panic button for when posters type such travesty as this.
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Old 18th February 2021, 02:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Or perhaps, "Is Multiculturalism compatible with Democracy?".

"Majority rule" seems to be the opposite of "Cultural Plurality"
Every actual democracy in the world is a multicultural society and all have been throughout their democratic history so the answer is yes.
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Old 18th February 2021, 02:54 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Before you can define multicultural, you need to define culture.

To me a culture is not food, or music or hairstyles or any other superficial rubbish like that, it's the basic rules/systems by which people interact.

Government, judicial and legal system, policing system, financial system, education, respect for(or not) private property, etc.

Note, I don't include religion per se, though some religions do have a significant impact on the basic rules outlined above.

If an incoming culture has radically different basic rules to the incumbent culture, then trouble is likely to arise - unless the incoming people are prepared to change the more radical differences. Of course you might then say that the incumbents should change, but that seems perverse in the extreme.
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Old 18th February 2021, 02:57 AM   #34
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the real question is; does monoculturalism work better?

The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers.
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Old 18th February 2021, 03:10 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
the real question is; does monoculturalism work better?

The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers.
Just because they aren't native doesn't mean they don't subscribe to the prevailing culture. Culture is not tribe.
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Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.
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Old 18th February 2021, 03:12 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why are all the dogs in my street barking?
A cool insult, but it does nothing to detail your logical objections.
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Those who are most fanatical in their condemnation of others are often mortally afraid that, in their deepest subconcious, they agree with those who they are condemning.

Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.
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Old 18th February 2021, 03:16 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
the real question is; does monoculturalism work better?

The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers.
This is what I was concerned about, the assumption that multiculturalism is only about non-native people. Even without one new person coming into the U.K. since say 1900 the U.K. would still be a multicultural society and country.
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Old 18th February 2021, 03:16 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
the real question is; does monoculturalism work better?

The US tech and science sector would be 2nd or 3rd rate without the disproportionately high levels of non-native workers.
I am curious to what your definition of non-native is.

White people if you are going back that far.?

Past immigration?

If so how far?

Is some one whose great grandad moved there 100 years ago and their parents and grand parents were born in the US are they non native?

Or their grandad?

Or their parents moved their and again they themselves were born in the US?

Or they weren't born in the US and have moved over themselves?
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2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044
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Old 18th February 2021, 03:22 AM   #39
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I guess the answer would be if no other of the multiple countries had ever discovered then rocked on over to the US, the native Americans would probably not have the same tech we have now.
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"I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said.

2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044
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Old 18th February 2021, 03:26 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
A cool insult, but it does nothing to detail your logical objections.
Because there is nothing else to refute with what you have posted.

You are obviously using multiculturalism in the way racists and other bigots use the word. This is why I was asking about the definitions used right at the beginning of this thread.

All culture means (in the sense of human societies) is:

“…. the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people …..”

All multicultural means is the plural of the above or

“….the presence of, or support for the presence of, several distinct cultural or ethnic groups within a society….“

Every democratic country in the world has been and is a multicultural society.

It is probably not possible to have any large cooperative grouping of humans - i.e. a society that isn’t multicultural.

To argue against multiculturalism is analogous to arguing water shouldn’t be wet as multiculturalism is the default for congregating humans.
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