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Tags Kim Jong-Il , North Korea incidents , North Korea politics

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Old 25th May 2010, 08:27 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Kim doesn't want a real war, he just wants his subjects to think it.
And if he opens fire on the propaganda transmitters?
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Old 25th May 2010, 08:51 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
I fully expect a "hot" war within the week now. This thing is going to be very, very bad.
That is statement from naive brain. You wrong. Very wrong. North Korea is mostly not big urgency in Jewish goals.
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Old 25th May 2010, 09:25 PM   #43
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WTF?
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Old 25th May 2010, 09:26 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
I'm pretty sure it would be unconstitutional for japan to weaponise H-IIA. Equaly it seems unlikely that japan's level of spending on it's space program is really justifiable in any other context.
What about for launching satellites?

Heck, all countries' scientific space programs are somewhat unjustifiable white elephants.

Of course, Japan may have had in the back of their minds that these things could also be used as ICBMs in a pinch, although I doubt it was ever official policy, even secretly.
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Old 25th May 2010, 09:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
WTF?
Because of course The Joos are behind all wars. Duh.
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Old 25th May 2010, 09:29 PM   #46
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Just report him for derailing.
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Old 26th May 2010, 01:37 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
And if he opens fire on the propaganda transmitters?
Then the party is over for him. His life is much more comfortable for him personally as it is. Unless he has gone completely insane, which is entirely possible.
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Old 26th May 2010, 02:10 AM   #48
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I do not believe that North Korea will be involved in a hot war in the next week, or the next month, or the next year.

He has a whole bunch of sabres, and they're very very rattly.
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Old 26th May 2010, 02:43 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
I fully expect a "hot" war within the week now. This thing is going to be very, very bad.
There isn't going to be a war.
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Old 26th May 2010, 03:51 AM   #50
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Here's hoping you're right. However, if fortune-telling by Spotify is anything to go by (and who thinks it isn't?), we're screwed. Today started with "Suicide is Painless" and continued with "We will all go together when we go".
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Old 26th May 2010, 03:55 AM   #51
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we the international community should drop tons of food in NK, so the people have enough to eat so they are fed enough to revolt.
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Old 26th May 2010, 04:18 AM   #52
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But then Kim would just spin a story about his powers dropping bundles of food from the heavens. They aren't sitting around waiting to revolt.
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Old 26th May 2010, 04:31 AM   #53
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It's probably unworthy of me, but I keep thinking "Here's a hard-line Stalinist Communist state in deep, deep trouble - where's George Galloway when he's needed?"
- after all he doesn't have the distraction of being an MP any longer, and if he brokered a peace-deal ...
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Old 26th May 2010, 04:35 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
But then Kim would just spin a story about his powers dropping bundles of food from the heavens. They aren't sitting around waiting to revolt.
I'm not sure they even know what the word "revolt" means. I strongly suspect it's not in their dictionaries.
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Old 26th May 2010, 04:36 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
But then Kim would just spin a story about his powers dropping bundles of food from the heavens. They aren't sitting around waiting to revolt.
you are propably right
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Old 26th May 2010, 05:11 AM   #56
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We need to find out how people from within the country have come to realise about how drastically their leaders lied to them. It's few reported, but a few, nonetheless.

What happened, and how can we increase this awareness?
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Old 26th May 2010, 05:25 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Comsat Angel View Post
It's probably unworthy of me, but I keep thinking "Here's a hard-line Stalinist Communist state in deep, deep trouble - where's George Galloway when he's needed?"
- after all he doesn't have the distraction of being an MP any longer, and if he brokered a peace-deal ...
Remember, he said he'd support the North if they went into war with the US!
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Old 26th May 2010, 06:29 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
What happened, and how can we increase this awareness?
It would be hard. North Korea has stricter information controls than China. Or Australia.
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Old 26th May 2010, 07:18 AM   #59
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But does anyone have any idea what led to their awakening?
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Old 26th May 2010, 01:09 PM   #60
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Good article on the possibility of a hot war:
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...00.html?hpt=T2
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Old 26th May 2010, 01:19 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
WTF?
AFAICT, Zach Aviv's whole shtick is that he is a partof Great Jewish Conspiracy That Runs The World, and he is feeding us crumbs fo information.

I think he is pulling everyone's leg, but there is a chance he actually believes it. A small chance.
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Old 26th May 2010, 01:22 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
we the international community should drop tons of food in NK, so the people have enough to eat so they are fed enough to revolt.
They're one step ahead of you. In Kimland, foreign aid packets are gifts from the outside world to the Dear and Great Leader, a sign of veneration and fear much like the animal sacrifices to gods of old. I don't know for sure, but given how Christians and other people in the Western world can adhere to Christianity without any evidence their god even exists, I fear the North Korean belief in the powers of Kim il-Sung and Kim jong-Il can be pretty strong.
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Old 26th May 2010, 01:57 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
But does anyone have any idea what led to their awakening?
Random information leakage. For example a radio altured to let it pick up south korean stations.
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Old 26th May 2010, 11:17 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
They're one step ahead of you. In Kimland, foreign aid packets are gifts from the outside world to the Dear and Great Leader, a sign of veneration and fear much like the animal sacrifices to gods of old. I don't know for sure, but given how Christians and other people in the Western world can adhere to Christianity without any evidence their god even exists, I fear the North Korean belief in the powers of Kim il-Sung and Kim jong-Il can be pretty strong.
i only know those secret reportages you can find on youtube from inside NK, where you see little children drinking dirty water on the streets and are hungry. when i see that i cannot imagen anyone can belive in a god there, especially not when your god runs the country you are starving in.

in that case i would be happy to be the Satan.
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Old 26th May 2010, 11:33 PM   #65
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It is all about context. If you believe that everybody else is even worse off, you might be inclined to believe that Fearless Leader is what keeps utter devastation at bay.

Control perception -> control people
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Old 26th May 2010, 11:41 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by PogoPedant View Post
It is all about context. If you believe that everybody else is even worse off, you might be inclined to believe that Fearless Leader is what keeps utter devastation at bay.

Control perception -> control people
oh good point. how i hate that guy. where is the Mossad team when you need it.
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Old 27th May 2010, 08:22 AM   #67
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The KCNA continues to churn out hilarious propaganda...

Quote:
If the south side sets up even loudspeakers in the frontline area to resume the broadcasting, in particular, the KPA will take military steps to blow up one by one the moment they appear by firing sighting shots because such action will be tantamount to a blatant abrogation of the north-south military agreement and a military provocation against the DPRK.


Moreover, measures will be taken to totally ban the passage of personnel and vehicles of the south side in the zone under the north-south control in the western coastal area.


The south Korean puppet war-like forces would be well advised to act with discretion, bearing deep in mind that such measures of the KPA will not end in an empty talk.
The thing is that North Korea makes these kinds of threats all the time. Every time they get slapped around in the Security Council, they start yelling about "raining furious blows upon the heads of the gangsters" etc... etc...

They have promised to turn Seoul into a sea of fire in the past and also threatened a hot war on many other occasions.

It can't be ruled out that Kim Jong-il will decide to go out in an apocalyptic blaze of ignominy, but so far they haven't really gone beyond past behaviour.
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Old 27th May 2010, 08:41 AM   #68
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D'you think they'd be so free at calling every part of the South Korean establishment 'puppets' if they knew about that film?
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Old 27th May 2010, 08:57 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The KCNA continues to churn out hilarious propaganda...



The thing is that North Korea makes these kinds of threats all the time. Every time they get slapped around in the Security Council, they start yelling about "raining furious blows upon the heads of the gangsters" etc... etc...

They have promised to turn Seoul into a sea of fire in the past and also threatened a hot war on many other occasions.

It can't be ruled out that Kim Jong-il will decide to go out in an apocalyptic blaze of ignominy, but so far they haven't really gone beyond past behaviour.
I searched for the phrase "sea of fire" with S.T.A.L.I.N., KCNA threatened to turn US bases into a sea of fire in 1998, to turn "provokers" into one in 1999, to turn "invaders" into one in 2003, Japan also twice in 2003 and again in 2005, Seoul also in 2003 and again in 2004, Tokyo in 2005, "everything" in 2008, South Korea in 2009 and Japanese archipelago, also in 2009. A few earlier mentions were propaganda boasts, how their Dear Leader braved a sea of fire and so on.

Just to put other North Korean threats in perspective and all

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Old 27th May 2010, 05:19 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
D'you think they'd be so free at calling every part of the South Korean establishment 'puppets' if they knew about that film?
Puppet leader Kim Jong-il



Actually, according to this article he's already seen the film and, apparently, doesn't like it:

Quote:
Apparently, North Korean despot Kim Jong-il has seen "Team America" and is having a tizzy.

His ranting could have to do with the fact that Jong-il is depicted in the movie in some less-than-flattering ways.

For starters, the flick has the tyrant shooting his translator in the head and throwing former United Nations weapons inspector Hans Blix into a tank of sharks.

The Jong-il character is a James Bond-type villain who is assisted by Hollywood celebs in carrying out a plan that he has to use weapons of mass destruction. Ultimately, he seeks to cause damage that's far worse than 9/11.

In real -- as opposed to reel -- life, the North Korean Embassy in Prague is asking for a ban of the film in the Czech Republic.

According to the Czech press, an Embassy official claimed that the movie "harms the image of our country," adding that "such behavior is not part of our [North Korea's] country's political culture."

The Czech government evidently has no intention of cooperating with the Stalinist nation's request.

"We told them it's an unrealistic wish," ministry spokesman Vit Kolar told the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. "Obviously, it's absurd to demand that in a democratic country," Kolar added.

The Left Coast Report hears that Kim Jong-il was really upset because his marionette was left out of the puppet sex scenes.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...5/160343.shtml
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

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Old 27th May 2010, 05:25 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
We need to find out how people from within the country have come to realise about how drastically their leaders lied to them. It's few reported, but a few, nonetheless.

What happened, and how can we increase this awareness?
Do they have any stamina left for a revolution? I get the impression the "Great Leader" and his party has morally, physically, and intellectually crippled the population beyond repair. The mounting revolution in Iran is young, educated, bold and restless, while North Koreans have suffered famine after famine, generations of indoctrination and brainwashing.

Iranians have contacts with the outside world, people go in and out, communication is passing through, they have seen what liberal democracies are like, they know about democracy and modernity, they have friends and family abroad to tell them about it. North Korea is completely closed.

I hope I'm wrong, but everytime I hear of NK, I'm thinking it's a lost cause.

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Old 27th May 2010, 06:11 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It can't be ruled out that Kim Jong-il will decide to go out in an apocalyptic blaze of ignominy,
But would the generals be crazy enough to carry out orders? He's probably so insulated they could just tell him "Yes dear leader, we are at war." "Yes dear leader, we are kicking South Korea's butt." "Congratulations, dear leader. You've won a great victory. Throw a parade."

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Old 28th May 2010, 01:18 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by steve s View Post
But would the generals be crazy enough to carry out orders? He's probably so insulated they could just tell him "Yes dear leader, we are at war." "Yes dear leader, we are kicking South Korea's butt." "Congratulations, dear leader. You've won a great victory. Throw a parade."

Steve S
I'm afraid you might be underestimating him. There are plentiful reports that say he's intelligent and knowledgeable of the worlds' affairs. He has been reputed to use the internet regularly, something only available to their secret police, and only in special circumstances, or so I've heard. I wouldn't put it past him to be able to do the opposite to his generals. This does reduce the possibility of him going mental and ordering the attack in the first place, but you never know.

Of course, those reports may also be false. If that's good or bad, I can't say.

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Old 28th May 2010, 01:30 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Do they have any stamina left for a revolution?
Depending on the reports, the answer is either "no" or "man, they don't even have the stamina to work properly". Sad, but true. I don't know how accurate those are, but there is very little dissent in North Korea, for any reason.

Quote:
I get the impression the "Great Leader" and his party has morally, physically, and intellectually crippled the population beyond repair. The mounting revolution in Iran is young, educated, bold and restless, while North Koreans have suffered famine after famine, generations of indoctrination and brainwashing.
That I agree with, and add utter repression to the list. Imprisoning three generations of political offenders and the like. It's interesting, but people tend to love such dictators. I don't know why, but I suspect it's a survival mechanism of some sort. Stalin used the same methods to a very similar effect.

Quote:
I hope I'm wrong, but everytime I hear of NK, I'm thinking it's a lost cause.
North Korean regime will fail eventually. Will that be tomorrow or in fifty years, I really can't say. It depends a lot on the mistakes they do now and the damage already done by mistakes caused by ineptitude (such as the botched currency revaluation). It probably depends even more on how successful the shift of power to his son will be, the attack on the South Korean corvette implies it isn't going all that well. It also depends on how able the heir is, and how long he lives. He's 27 or so, so he'll probably live for a long time from now, but he has been rumored to suffer from various conditions (diabetes and hypertension), so he might die young, depending on how well will he look after himself. It also depends on how North Koreans will take the transfer of power, it could be that they will swallow almost anything, or that their loyalties die alongside Kim Jong Il.

This last part is an interesting point. It's possible some generals are seeing the fractures in the society and see that the regime will be severely weakened by the death of a man it depends on, and want a solution that will give them more power, or a solution that will help the regime survive better. Perhaps they're desperately trying to avert a civil war. Who knows, but the worse the better in the long run.

Once the regime collapses, it will probably take at least two generations to patch up the damage done, and at least another three to erase it.

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Old 28th May 2010, 03:50 AM   #75
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China has spoken - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...c/10181527.stm .

I suppose it leaves the door wide open now for both sides - SK to attack, or retaliate. NK to behave.
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Old 28th May 2010, 04:45 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
China has spoken - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...c/10181527.stm .

I suppose it leaves the door wide open now for both sides - SK to attack, or retaliate. NK to behave.
Somewhat ambiguous, as always - they could always take it back and say "Oh yes, we said we wouldn't protect the attackers, but we honestly believe North Korea didn't do it".
As ridiculous as this is, I see no reason to doubt China would do just that, if they thought it would benefit them.

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Old 28th May 2010, 07:17 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Somewhat ambiguous, as always - they could always take it back and say "Oh yes, we said we wouldn't protect the attackers, but we honestly believe North Korea didn't do it".
As ridiculous as this is, I see no reason to doubt China would do just that, if they thought it would benefit them.

McHrozni
Well, as you say, the problem is whether or not they will agree that North Korea did it.

Here's Andrei Lankov who thinks the Chinese probably wouldn't agree the North did it if shown a video of the sinking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnuPeLvX0yU
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Old 28th May 2010, 09:46 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by steve s View Post
But would the generals be crazy enough to carry out orders? He's probably so insulated they could just tell him "Yes dear leader, we are at war." "Yes dear leader, we are kicking South Korea's butt." "Congratulations, dear leader. You've won a great victory. Throw a parade."

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Old 28th May 2010, 09:48 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
China has spoken - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...c/10181527.stm .

I suppose it leaves the door wide open now for both sides - SK to attack, or retaliate. NK to behave.
Seems to me like China is trying to distance themselves from North Korea while not throwing them overboard completly.
But who does China think did it?
[Obligatory "Tommorow Never Dies" joke here].

Last edited by dudalb; 28th May 2010 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 28th May 2010, 09:50 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
On the surface it's scary that China backs NK while USA backs SK.

On the other hand, China and The West are now economically and socially inter-dependent. For example, western Universities are heaving with the kids of the upper echelons of Chinese society (Harvard and Oxford have their own Chinese students' association, and they were the only two I looked up). The economic ties we know about.

Serious armed conflict in Korea would be something that China would be totally determined to avoid. It would not surprise me one bit to find Chinese 'influence' running through the top-level NK chain of command. And Kim can't push the buttons by himself.

imo. I merely hope it's true.
They said the same thing about the nations of Europe before August 1914. I'm not too sure the lessons of the following 4 years have been (or will ever be) learned.
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