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Tags N-S Korea relations , North Korea incidents , US-North Korea relations

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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:13 PM   #201
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
American propaganda:

http://www.nationalledger.com/artman...72636067.shtml

followed by:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thetic...nt-in-week-two

and finally:

http://primetime.tv.yahoo.com/

And then, perhaps some story about how terrorists have released another message threatening to blow up the world.


Seriously man...just give it up before you hurt yourself.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:19 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
North Korea, don't make me come over there...
You mean we aren't already "over there"?
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:22 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Seriously man...just give it up before you hurt yourself.
Don't you have some studying to do? Brush up on your Korean history, Ok? That way, you can play with the big boys with facts, not guesses.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:36 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
Don't you have some studying to do? Brush up on your Korean history, Ok? That way, you can play with the big boys with facts, not guesses.
Huh huh, he said 'facts'. Huh huh.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:36 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Slightly disagree with the first sentence because of what you immediately followed it with. Getting Plutonium or enough U235 is just not easy. You need a reactor for the plutonium and then you have to separate it from the fuel rods. For U235 you need a lot of good centrifuges.

Also, the one N. Korean bomb that was tested did not reach full yield. Not a dude but not nearly what they were trying to achieve.
True, it's not as easy as say, a fertilizer bomb where most of what you need has other uses and is available. But once you acquire the materials the actual technology behind making a large boom is pretty straightforward. Optimizing the design and improving on it takes some pretty serious work and tech (hence nuking the crap outta bikini atoll and such for decades), but building your classic a-bomb doesn't take a whole lotta know-how to get something functional.

Since WWII the whole has/doesn't have nukes seems to be more important than the actual effectiveness of said nukes. The US and USSR had a pissing match on building bigger bombs, but no one has yet invaded a nation that even had the simplest ones, so it's sort of an open question on their actual effectiveness in a war. Their use in defense is problematic, as nuking an enemy on your own territory tends to upset what's left of the locals. And once you nuke the invader's country the retaliation could be... unfortunate. So it's sort of a crap shoot what would happen in an actual war with NK on that front.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:38 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
Define 'right on the border'. I think I can see a huge difference in training in one's own country, no matter how close to a border, and deliberately firing into another.
If you bend over backwards to equivocate until the difference between North Korea and the US disappears, that difference disappears too.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:43 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I'm not sure I've mentioned it here but my son now lives in Seoul. When I was there a couple of months ago for his wedding:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...b8ebc4aee4.jpg

(aren't they cute?) we took a week vacation to see the sights. One of the most surprising things we encountered was the very strong desire for reunification. I thought it a bit naive (effect of propaganda by the SK government?) but we probably talked to someone about it almost every day. So if that sentiment is real, then getting the Chinese to get NK to the negotiating table would be a great move.
[Ot]... That pic could be a movie poster. (I say that as an actor and in the most complementary way possible.)
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:47 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40329269...ws-asiapacific

I seriously doubt if the residents of this Island will ever return. North Korea disputes ownership of this Island.

Ha! Don't tell me you believed this story?

The NWO planted the explosives in the island thirty years ago.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:50 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
He got his country nuclear weapons in a world that did not want him to have them. That alone is a massive achievement of great proportions, for a country as dinky, barren and backwards and war torn as North Korea. If he is "crazy", he is crazy like a fox.
Missed this before...

He most likely bought the technology from someone essentially going around with a nuclear material enrichment technology 'menu.' Same with Libya and Iran. He most likely has had help from China as well.

That doesn't really strike me as a great achievement.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:55 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
He most likely bought the technology from someone essentially going around with a nuclear material enrichment technology 'menu.' Same with Libya and Iran. He most likely has had help from China as well.

That doesn't really strike me as a great achievement.
Why are you dissing his hero? That is a great achievement, considering that the man couldn't possibly have devoted much time to this particular task. After all, he writes operas, he's an accomplished film director and also the Tiger Woods of North Korea -- all this while running a country. What's more, he has to run the country pretty much on his own, because he can't expect help from the President on account of him being dead for over 15 years.
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Last edited by timhau; 23rd November 2010 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 12:56 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by EGarrett View Post
How did a country like this get a hold of nuclear weapons in the first place? Are they that easy to develop?
A pakistani scientist decided to prance around in the late 80s and early 90s selling enrichment technology.

I'm assuming China had a hand in it as well.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:02 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
A North Korean sub ran aground only a few miles from my mother's hometown and the locals are still around.
While I was on a deployment in the West Pacific on one of my subs back in the 90’s, we heard about a NK mini-sub that ran aground. The South Koreans stormed aboard and killed everyone on it then took the sub with them. A few weeks later my sub pulls in to Chinhae for a four day visit.

The next day one of our van drivers (we were not allowed to walk around the base) came back all excited claiming that he saw the captured mini-sub. A group of us heading out on liberty got into the van and a few minutes later we were driving in front of an aircraft hanger that had a soldier sitting in a chair at the entrance. Inside was a barnacle covered submarine. Not sure it was the captured mini-sub, but who knows.

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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:02 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
Missed this before...

He most likely...
What, too much work to look it up, so you'll just guess? Such strong opinions, so little knowledge or desire to gain it?


Quote:
That doesn't really strike me as a great achievement.
How many nations have nukes? How many want them, wish they had them?

But go on believing he is craaazzzy! that way, anything he does, you can be told why by American propaganda, and believe it, no matter how craaaazy it is, because of course, he is craaaazy!

Last edited by UWdude; 23rd November 2010 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:05 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
What, too much work to look it up, so you'll just guess? Such strong opinions, so little knowledge or desire to gain it?
I'm not guessing, but there's no way to definitively prove that Iran and the A.Q. Khan network supplied NK with enrichment technology. Or if there is, it hasn't been declassified.

Quote:
How many nations have nukes? How many want them, wish they had them?

But go on believing he is craaazzzy! that way, anything he does, you can be told why by American propaganda, and believe it, no matter how craaaazy it is, because of course, he is craaaazy!
Ignoring your rambling, if you want to think writing a check is an achievement, more power to you.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:06 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
I'm not guessing, but there's no way to definitively prove that Iran and the A.Q. Khan network supplied NK with enrichment technology. Or if there is, it hasn't been declassified.


Ignoring your rambling, if you want to think writing a check is an achievement, more power to you.

Let me know when you have enough money to secretly buy nuclear weapons and enrichment facilities.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:11 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
Let me know when you have enough money to secretly buy nuclear weapons and enrichment facilities.
If my dad had left me a mid-sized Asian nation, I'm pretty sure I'd have that sort of money by the time I'm 60.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:12 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
Let me know when you have enough money to secretly buy nuclear weapons and enrichment facilities.
Let me know when you finish flailing at your strawmen.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:14 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
Don't you have some studying to do? Brush up on your Korean history, Ok? That way, you can play with the big boys with facts, not guesses.
"Facts"....like yours? I'll pass. I seem to be doing just fine in this thread.

Seriously...give it up.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:15 PM   #219
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South Korea's president says "enormous retaliation" is needed to stop Pyongyang's incitement
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The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:18 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
You mean we aren't already "over there"?
Nah, we're in South Korea. We haven't brought Freedom And Democracy™ to the North yet.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:19 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
Let me know when you finish flailing at your strawmen.
which strawman is that? Do you even know why I said getting nuclear weapons was a great achievement?

Do you think getting a nuclear weapon was the move of a crazy man in North Korea's position?

And did you ever give pause to my question about nations wishing they had nuclear weapons? Why can't they just cut a check and get one like Kim Jung Il?

Quote:
If my dad had left me a mid-sized Asian nation, I'm pretty sure I'd have that sort of money by the time I'm 60.
And who would you buy it from? How would you build the nuclear power plants? How would you buy time from the international community? (ps NK is one of the smallest Asian nations, Cambodia is smaller, cant think of many others, maybe Laos?)

Fact is, running a country is not easy, and does not go well if you are crazy. "Crazy" is a loaded propaganda word used to eliminate questioning of given explanations for a character's actions. The answer "he's crazy" can be given to any action, and if "he's crazy" is believed, it will always make sense, no matter how ridiculous.

Last edited by UWdude; 23rd November 2010 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:20 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"Facts"....like yours? I'll pass. I seem to be doing just fine in this thread.

Seriously...give it up.
Go study.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:23 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
Fact is, running a country is not easy, and does not go well if you are crazy.
... and by any sane metrics, Kim isn't doing a very good job running his fiefdom.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:28 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
Do you think getting a nuclear weapon was the move of a crazy man in North Korea's position?
Pragmatism and crazy aren't mutually exclusive.

Quote:
And did you ever give pause to my question about nations wishing they had nuclear weapons?
No, because I don't see how the answer is significant.

Quote:
Why can't they just cut a check and get one like Kim Jung Il?
The threat of international sanction stops most of them, they lose far more by stockpiling nuclear arms than they would from participating in the NPT and receiving nuclear energy technology legitimately. Most countries don't even want to deal with nuclear arms in the first place, they have no need for them and they're a pain. The countries that don't care about international pressure and didn't already have the revenue for their own program, such as Iran, North Korea, and Pakistan, did just cut a check, because it's simpler and cheaper. Libya falls into this as well, but eventually they caved to international pressure and disarmed. China got most of their technology from the Soviets.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:57 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Piscivore View Post
Does China still have their back?
Sort of. China likes having N.K. as a thorn in our side. I had an interesting thought this morning. Obama calls Beijing and makes them an offer they can't refuse, Taiwan for North Korea. China really wants Taiwan and all the historical artifacts Chang Kai-Shek stole as he fled. The U.S. would agree to simply stop defending Taiwan and China would stop backing North Korea by completely shutting their border both ways. Nothing goes in and nothing comes out. The U.S. further agrees to significant troop withdrawls from the peninsula once the Koreas are "unified." China benefits by removing two sources of conflict on their borders. The North Korea people benefit from rejoining the civilized world. The rest of the world benefits from an end to North Korea's crazy belligerence and the threat of nuclear proliferation. The Taiwanese people would become chinese citizens, but that didn't really hurt the citizens of Hong Kong, did it?
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Old 23rd November 2010, 01:57 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
Go study.
I tried studying your preferred version of Korean history, but unfortunately Dear Leader's Mighty Website of the Ever-Victorious Revolution is having server problems.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:02 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I tried studying your preferred version of Korean history, but unfortunately Dear Leader's Mighty Website of the Ever-Victorious Revolution is having server problems.
What a coincidence! I'll guess that Anonymous are having a field day...
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:07 PM   #228
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Pfft. Internet is so not Juche.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:24 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
Go study.
No, YOU go study.

See? It isn't a real argument no matter who says it.

What is your opinion of KJI anyway?
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:27 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
The Taiwanese people would become chinese citizens, but that didn't really hurt the citizens of Hong Kong, did it?
From Taiwan's point of view they are already Chinese citizens, it being the Republic of China.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:30 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
From Taiwan's point of view they are already Chinese citizens, it being the Republic of China.
Everyone wins! We just need to do some fighting.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:32 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
The U.S. would agree to simply stop defending Taiwan
That would still leave the Taiwanese defending Taiwan. Sure, they're no match for the PRC, but their military is not insignificant.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:40 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
Go study.
I would suggest you do the same. Start with the North Korean news service. It is the offical news website of the North Korean government, ran on servers located in Japan. There is a Spanish version on the site as well if english is not your native tongue.

Here is a litle Reuters article for you. I am sure you have heard the reputation that organisation has for being impartial, as well as a non US based news service.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE51E04N20090216
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:43 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I tried studying your preferred version of Korean history, but unfortunately Dear Leader's Mighty Website of the Ever-Victorious Revolution is having server problems.
Try this one

http://www.kcna.co.jp/
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:46 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Try this one

http://www.kcna.co.jp/
I believe I posted that one myself on page 5.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:50 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
That would still leave the Taiwanese defending Taiwan. Sure, they're no match for the PRC, but their military is not insignificant.
That's an understatement. While the standing army is about 1.6 million, the Chinese could probably rustle up 100 million soldiers in six months (with a population of 1.3 billion from which to choose). Taiwan military is insignificant. Heck, the US military is nearly insignificant comparatively. We have better weapons and other military tech - but that's about it.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:58 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by UWdude View Post
yeah man, they're craaaazzy! haven't you ever like, studied.. I mean, I read this TIME article once, and it said he was coming unhinged... oh... and of course, Team America, World Police, was really funny too!

craaazzy Im tellin ya! Craaazy!

Oh oh, and Ahmedinijad is Craazy! And Mossadegh was Craaaazy! And "So damn insane" was craaazy! They are all so craaazy!
Wait, you don't think those guys were crazy?
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Old 23rd November 2010, 02:59 PM   #238
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Old 23rd November 2010, 03:03 PM   #239
Father Dagon
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Pfft. Internet is so not Juche.
Yes, the internets simply loev Best Korea. However, they're not behaving themselves and are therefore punished by the internets.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 03:04 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I believe I posted that one myself on page 5.
But you didn't show the correct level of deference in doing so. Please dont do it again
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