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Tags Kim Jong-un , North Korea incidents , North Korea politics

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Old 29th October 2012, 11:25 AM   #1
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North Korean purges continue. Klling latest with mortar execution.

North Korean army minister 'executed with mortar round'

One of the latest purges by Kim Jong-un in North Korea includes an army minister blown to pieces for drinking during the official 'mourning period.'

Quote:
A North Korean army minister was executed with a mortar round for reportedly drinking and carousing during the official mourning period after Kim Jong-il's death.

Kim Chol, vice minister of the army, was taken into custody earlier this year on the orders of Kim Jong-un, who assumed the leadership after the death of his father in December.

On the orders of Kim Jong-un to leave "no trace of him behind, down to his hair," according to South Korean media, Kim Chol was forced to stand on a spot that had been zeroed in for a mortar round and "obliterated."

The execution of Kim Chol is just one example of a purge of members of the North Korean military or party who threatened the fledgling regime of Kim Jong-un.

So far this year, 14 senior officials have fallen victim to the purges, according to intelligence data provided to Yoon Sang-hyun, a member of the South Korean Foreign Affairs, Trade and Unification Committee.

...

When Kim Jong-un became North Korean leader following the mourning period for his father in late December, high-ranking military officers started disappearing," a source told the Chosun Ilbo newspaper. "From information compiled over the last month, we have concluded that dozens of military officers were purged."

Now everyone look happy, or I blow you up too!

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Old 29th October 2012, 11:16 PM   #2
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Now a mortar round execution is pretty rare, but don't think that North Korea is not inventive with their executions!

With all of the people that they kill every year, it looks like Kim Jong is having some fun with thinking up new ways to kill his people.

Report: N. Korean officials executed in staged traffic accidents

Quote:
A new Amnesty International report paints a gruesome picture of summary executions, torture and ill-treatment in North Korea as Kim Jong Un succeeded his late father, Kim Jong Il, as the country's ruler last December.

The country used firing squads or staged traffic accidents to execute 30 officials involved in talks to unite North and South Korea, according to the 2012 Amnesty International report released Thursday. It also notes that the country had been questioned about another 37 reported executions between 2007 and 2010 for "financial crimes."
Credible reports estimated that up to 200,000 prisoners were held in horrific conditions in six sprawling political prison camps, including the notorious Yodok facility. Thousands were imprisoned in at least 180 other detention facilities. Most were imprisoned without trial or following grossly unfair trials and on the basis of forced confessions.
Men, women and children, who were kept in the prison camps, were tortured and forced to work in dangerous conditions, according to the report. Many of the prisoners die or get sick while in custody due to the horrendous conditions, beatings, lack of medical care and unhealthy living conditions.

Ironically, one of my friends who was convinced that Communism was just the 'greatest,' told me that North Korea was a paradise. A "paradise" he said from his small apartment with a cabinet full of food. A situation that many N. Koreans would gladly give up their lives for if they thought it would allow their kids or family to have the same opportunity.
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Old 29th October 2012, 11:34 PM   #3
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Those wacky North Koreans. What will they think of next?
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Old 29th October 2012, 11:41 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Ironically, one of my friends who was convinced that Communism was just the 'greatest,' told me that North Korea was a paradise. A "paradise" he said from his small apartment with a cabinet full of food. A situation that many N. Koreans would gladly give up their lives for if they thought it would allow their kids or family to have the same opportunity.
How do people get these wacky ideas about N. Korea?

I take it he doesn't get his ideas from mainstream sources.

Perhaps he should listen to what Charles Robert Jenkins said about life in North Korea:

Quote:
Jenkins says he almost immediately regretted his defection. He says that he and three other U.S. servicemen, Larry Abshier, Jerry Parrish and James Dresnok, were quarantined in a one-room house with no running water until 1972, where they were made to study the Juche philosophy of Kim Il-sung. They were forced to memorize large passages of Kim's in Korean, and beaten frequently.[2]
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Old 30th October 2012, 02:36 PM   #5
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Not so much to apologize for the Kims, but some of this sounds suspiciously overly-weird. Forcing a guy to stand there as you fire a mortar at him is believable enough, if pretty odd.

But the "staged traffic accidents" - I wonder how they staged these and how the informants happened to know about the truth? To stage an "accident" suggests other than the usual driving off the road by unseen drivers who flee the scene. To stage an "accident," you need to ram into them in a deadly way (for them, not you) and then hang around the "accident" scene.

Unless they mean - gasp - staged hit-and-run accidents. Yeah, I guess that could be. So maybe it's not too weird.

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 30th October 2012 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 30th October 2012, 03:32 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Not so much to apologize for the Kims, but some of this sounds suspiciously overly-weird. Forcing a guy to stand there as you fire a mortar at him is believable enough, if pretty odd.

But the "staged traffic accidents" - I wonder how they staged these and how the informants happened to know about the truth? To stage an "accident" suggests other than the usual driving off the road by unseen drivers who flee the scene. To stage an "accident," you need to ram into them in a deadly way (for them, not you) and then hang around the "accident" scene.

Unless they mean - gasp - staged hit-and-run accidents. Yeah, I guess that could be. So maybe it's not too weird.
Blowing someone up with a mortar round is just the tip of the iceberg. The 200,000 people in the N. Korean death camps, many of whom are killed by untreated disease, starvation, and beatings are probably more of an issue.

More than just a little odd.


By the way, what is it with you and rushing to the defense of every bloody brutal dictator? Do you feel that they are being unfairly picked on and desperately need your protection?
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Old 30th October 2012, 03:40 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
How do people get these wacky ideas about N. Korea?

I take it he doesn't get his ideas from mainstream sources.

Perhaps he should listen to what Charles Robert Jenkins said about life in North Korea:
Definitely a good example, and thanks for the info. Although, I think he would probably take any criticism of N. Korea as manufactured Western lies. Even if it was an interview of someone's personal experiences.

There were a lot of similar people like that in OWS. Communism and even anarchism were touted as viable solutions to fixing the problems with Capitalism. Not so much because they had really thought through those ideas, since the repeated failures of Communism has killed millions of people, and Anarchism is an oxymoron that could never exist in the real world. But more because they could use Communism and Anarchism as a tool for helping to hold up Capitalism as the get evil of our lifetimes.

I have yet to meet a Communist who has genuinely thought their ideas through, and I think that is the whole point. Thinking about complexities are hard, but having blanket blame assertions of good/evil that don't require thinking is easy.
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Old 30th October 2012, 03:44 PM   #8
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Well, I'll let you decide for yourself why I'm so eager to defend the dictators. Probably some conspiracy involved, huh?

As for the rest of the iceberg you refer to, I'm sure sure at least a lot of that is real, possibly even (roughly) all of it. But for some unspecifiable portion, there could be some geo-politically motivated exaggeration to help "clarify" the situation.

Take that as a FWIW passing thought, read as loosely as possible to increase its perceived worth (that is, try considering a 0.5% exaggeration rate and say "OK, maybe" rather than imagining I mean it's all fake and calling me koo-koo, 'kay?).

I am soooo not an expert on N. Korea, and would have little to add other than those FWIW points and the little thought exercise above.
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Old 30th October 2012, 04:34 PM   #9
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It is pretty apparent that Caustic Logic is going to defend any Anti Western Dictator that comes along.....
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Old 30th October 2012, 04:42 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Not so much to apologize for the Kims, but some of this sounds suspiciously overly-weird. Forcing a guy to stand there as you fire a mortar at him is believable enough, if pretty odd.

But the "staged traffic accidents" - I wonder how they staged these and how the informants happened to know about the truth? To stage an "accident" suggests other than the usual driving off the road by unseen drivers who flee the scene. To stage an "accident," you need to ram into them in a deadly way (for them, not you) and then hang around the "accident" scene.

Unless they mean - gasp - staged hit-and-run accidents. Yeah, I guess that could be. So maybe it's not too weird.
I think they were "staged" in the sense they never happened.

North Korea has from time to time had epidemics of bad traffic accidents in which people were killed. Although this is from memory, I seem to remember that some of the abductees from Japan suddenly died in a rash of traffic accidents and suicides on the same day. The inference made by those who were given the information is that they were killed (or at least, disappeared) in a purge.

Those who watch North Korea will know that these sudden train and traffic accidents and suicides tend to occur in quick succession. I have also heard it said that the somewhat unbelievable timing is also deliberate as a thinly-veiled warning to others to obey the regime.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 30th October 2012, 04:55 PM   #11
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Not doing the most concerted job of it here, if so. Maybe that's my clever cover, huh?
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Old 30th October 2012, 05:12 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think they were "staged" in the sense they never happened.

North Korea has from time to time had epidemics of bad traffic accidents in which people were killed. Although this is from memory, I seem to remember that some of the abductees from Japan suddenly died in a rash of traffic accidents and suicides on the same day. The inference made by those who were given the information is that they were killed (or at least, disappeared) in a purge.

Those who watch North Korea will know that these sudden train and traffic accidents and suicides tend to occur in quick succession. I have also heard it said that the somewhat unbelievable timing is also deliberate as a thinly-veiled warning to others to obey the regime.
I was wondering about that myself. Why go to all the trouble of "staging" a traffic accident if you're North Korea? They probably just make the victim disappear and they tell his family and the official news media, which they control, that he died in a traffic accident.
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Old 30th October 2012, 05:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Well, I'll let you decide for yourself why I'm so eager to defend the dictators. Probably some conspiracy involved, huh?
I would say it is probably foremost a desire to have a unique viewpoint not dictated by the views/findings of the main stream media.

Although many times I would argue that largely comes from shoot-from-the-hip speculation and inaccurate analysis influenced by the blanket good guy/bad guy thinking that can sometimes be found on the extreme left and extreme right.

It is an ideology that thrives on the desire to be unique, but ironically relies on the groupthink consensus of similar ideological groups. An ideology that justifies the mistakes and inaccuracies in their thinking through the struggle for the 'greater good' over the 'greater evil.' A way of thinking that limits rational analysis, which allows more CTs to be accepted without the red flags that would normally come up in people who do not subscribe to such a black and white thinking, but a way of thinking that itself is not part of a CT.

Similar reasoning for providing blanket support for dictators while ignoring their negative attributes is shown in the video that JJ posted, including at 45:30 in the video and elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
As for the rest of the iceberg you refer to, I'm sure sure at least a lot of that is real, possibly even (roughly) all of it. But for some unspecifiable portion, there could be some geo-politically motivated exaggeration to help "clarify" the situation.

Take that as a FWIW passing thought, read as loosely as possible to increase its perceived worth (that is, try considering a 0.5% exaggeration rate and say "OK, maybe" rather than imagining I mean it's all fake and calling me koo-koo, 'kay?).
Kooky is not the word I would use. "Intentionally misinformed with views based unnecesarily solely on speculation," howerver is more accurate.

Photographs of the camps

Along with an interactive map of the five main Gulag camps by the Washington Post:

On the Map: Five Major North Korean Prison Camps

Show that it is not feasible, reasonable, or rational to assume that there is no one being held in the North Korean labor camps.

In addition, the prevalence of the accounts of people held at the camps, and people working at the camps also shows the speculation that there are no political prisoners in N. Korean Gulags is unrealistic.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
I am soooo not an expert on N. Korea, and would have little to add other than those FWIW points and the little thought exercise above.
Ok.
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Old 30th October 2012, 05:21 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think they were "staged" in the sense they never happened.

North Korea has from time to time had epidemics of bad traffic accidents in which people were killed. Although this is from memory, I seem to remember that some of the abductees from Japan suddenly died in a rash of traffic accidents and suicides on the same day. The inference made by those who were given the information is that they were killed (or at least, disappeared) in a purge.

Those who watch North Korea will know that these sudden train and traffic accidents and suicides tend to occur in quick succession. I have also heard it said that the somewhat unbelievable timing is also deliberate as a thinly-veiled warning to others to obey the regime.
Well they didn't exactly publish articles of killing people in staged accidents, so it would be fairly unlikely that they would have used that as a cover.

However, either way, it's pretty bad. If they are using a "staged bizarre execution" as a way of covering up for bigger problems, than there is definitely something pretty majorly wrong with the Country.
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Old 30th October 2012, 05:26 PM   #15
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A video on the North Korean Gulags

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 30th October 2012, 05:51 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I was wondering about that myself. Why go to all the trouble of "staging" a traffic accident if you're North Korea? They probably just make the victim disappear and they tell his family and the official news media, which they control, that he died in a traffic accident.
Yes, that's what I imagine. If you've ever seen North Korean roads then the story of a traffic accident seems almost ludicrous. There are barely any cars on the roads and outside of the main cities the roads tend to be very long, straight and about six lanes wide.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 30th October 2012, 05:54 PM   #17
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Considering that NK has one of the largest existing ammunition stockpiles in artillery, mortar and rocket types in the world, maybe they're just using up old stock.
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Old 30th October 2012, 06:53 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Well they didn't exactly publish articles of killing people in staged accidents, so it would be fairly unlikely that they would have used that as a cover.
I don't know what you mean. I am not saying the North Korean regime advertises the fact that the traffic accidents were staged. Is that what you thought I was saying?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 30th October 2012, 07:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't know what you mean. I am not saying the North Korean regime advertises the fact that the traffic accidents were staged. Is that what you thought I was saying?
Oh, sorry for the confusion.

I don't know if they would go through with a real staged accident to cover up the executions or not, but I do think that Kim Jung-Un has a reason to be somewhat secret with some of the upper level killings to consolidate control.

This is not like the normal everyday peasant killing. Some of the generals do hold power, although I don't see any major threat to Jung-Un's power any time soon.

Regular political executions are just business as usual for N. Korea.
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Old 31st October 2012, 05:16 AM   #20
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That has to be the least efficient way to carry out an execution ever.

Mortars can't be "zeroed" in the same way that a rifle is zeroed - you can use your firing tables to predict approximately where the round will go, but the Probable Errors in Range and Dispersion mean that you're landing in an area around that point, provided you've accounted for the meteorlogical conditions, barrell wear, variations in the ammunition lot, and any errors in laying the tube. The result would probably kill the dude, but the "obliteration" deal wouldn't happen.

Apologies for the gunner rant.
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Old 31st October 2012, 05:57 PM   #21
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How does this kind of info get out of NK? Is more than one original source reporting this? Or any other kind of corroboration?

I believe the famine camps and the torture jails, for sure.

But I am skeptical about some of the crazy attributed to NK.

In semi-related news, remember that story about KJI getting 18 holes in one the first time he played golf? I could only find a single English language source for that- some BBC reporter recounting what he'd read (IIRC). Is there any other corroboration that this story appeared in the NK media?
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Old 31st October 2012, 06:05 PM   #22
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Double post

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Old 31st October 2012, 06:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Captain.Sassy View Post
How does this kind of info get out of NK? Is more than one original source reporting this? Or any other kind of corroboration?

I believe the famine camps and the torture jails, for sure.

But I am skeptical about some of the crazy attributed to NK.
[..]
I agree.
Media have the habit of inflating bad news about foreign potentially enemy countries while giving a blind eye to news about bad things regarding their own.
“WMD in Iraq” and “Israel must be wiped off the map” are just two examples of lies from the Western media, if you want to hear lies about Iranian and Japanese media, just just open Press TV site or look at the one-sided version of the island row with China in Japanese news....

Crazy claims about NK can not be independently verified, so I do not give much trust to such strange non-sensical "news".
Not that I disagree with the sad truth of the state of NK regime.

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Old 31st October 2012, 07:23 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
I agree.
Media have the habit of inflating bad news about foreign potentially enemy countries while giving a blind eye to news about bad things regarding their own.
“WMD in Iraq” and “Israel must be wiped off the map” are just two examples of lies from the Western media, if you want to hear lies about Iranian and Japanese media, just just open Press TV site or look at the one-sided version of the island row with China in Japanese news....

Crazy claims about NK can not be independently verified, so I do not give much trust to such strange non-sensical "news".
Not that I disagree with the sad truth of the state of NK regime.
I agree with you too, though I don't think anyone's consciously 'lying'.

A while ago I started a thread about whether the Western / US media vilified Western / US enemies the same way the media in 'enemy' countries vilified the US. Lots of posts agreed that yes, the US media probably did, but there weren't really many contemporary examples pointed out (except by the 'usual suspects'). I thought that was odd.
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Old 31st October 2012, 09:29 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Captain.Sassy View Post
I agree with you too, though I don't think anyone's consciously 'lying'.

A while ago I started a thread about whether the Western / US media vilified Western / US enemies the same way the media in 'enemy' countries vilified the US. Lots of posts agreed that yes, the US media probably did, but there weren't really many contemporary examples pointed out (except by the 'usual suspects'). I thought that was odd.
I agree with you, most of the people may may not be conciously lying about the perceived “enemy”, etc.
They just show that country in the worst light possible and fail to use the same equanimity and parameters for the “other”.
The most blatant example is Iran, the US accuses Iran to have a nuclear weapon program since 20 years ago, when it is the US the only country who used nukes against civilians and has threatened Iran in every immaginable way.
Iran does not even have the missile capability to reach the US.
Any person with 1% of common sense would understand this, but most people in the West perceive Iran, not the US, as the terrorist country.
Of course, this ipocrisy is used by Iran to justify their aggressive plans against Israel and the refusal to recognize Israel as a country, which is unjustifiable and wrong by the Iranians as well, no matter what.
Here with NK we may see a similar pattern, Western media have an easy way to tell everything they want about NK since it is almost impossible to independently verfy what they say.
Of course, we all know what unfortunately happens in NK, even without having to rely on news of people executed by mortars.

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Old 31st October 2012, 10:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Captain.Sassy View Post
How does this kind of info get out of NK? Is more than one original source reporting this? Or any other kind of corroboration?

I believe the famine camps and the torture jails, for sure.

But I am skeptical about some of the crazy attributed to NK.
Based on what?

The labor camps, the large numbers of executions you would accept, but isn't that enough evidence right there of being out what many would term rational control?

The North Korean system is severely broken. The large number of people killed through famine is direct evidence of that. The labor camps are a way of restraining rebellion, but they are also a way of maintaining large scale brutal slave labor.

It's not so much crazy in the mental sense, but they are required to engage in what many would deem to be 'crazy' acts in order for the N. Korean regime just to survive.
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Old 31st October 2012, 11:13 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
I agree with you, most of the people may may not be conciously lying about the perceived “enemy”, etc.
They just show that country in the worst light possible and fail to use the same equanimity and parameters for the “other”.
The most blatant example is Iran, the US accuses Iran to have a nuclear weapon program since 20 years ago, when it is the US the only country who used nukes against civilians and has threatened Iran in every immaginable way.
Iran does not even have the missile capability to reach the US.
Any person with 1% of common sense would understand this, but most people in the West perceive Iran, not the US, as the terrorist country.
Of course, this ipocrisy is used by Iran to justify their aggressive plans against Israel and the refusal to recognize Israel as a country, which is unjustifiable and wrong by the Iranians as well, no matter what.
Here with NK we may see a similar pattern, Western media have an easy way to tell everything they want about NK since it is almost impossible to independently verfy what they say.
Of course, we all know what unfortunately happens in NK, even without having to rely on news of people executed by mortars.
Here's the difference. The US has a lot of nukes, but it is extremely unlikely that we would give them to anyone to use.

The arsenal of nukes the US holds on to, currently are largely a relic of the cold war, and primarily serve as a deterrent for other nations who also have arsenals of world destroyer weapons to not use them.

Iran on the other hand does have a lot of friends and groups they support who include the goal of killing millions of people as their primary missions. In addition, the Iranian government itself regularly states that carrying out mass genocide would be a great thing to do that they would really like to be able follow through on sometime.

Mixing nukes with a country that regularly publically fantasizes about wiping other countries off the map is a very bad idea.


The instability of the N. Korean regime which every so often bombs South Koreans and kills massive numbers of their own citizens is also a very problematic mixture for nuclear weapons.

In comparison, very few people are worried that France will ever launch off a nuclear weapon. They have a strong government, and little reason to use their nukes.

N. Korea on the other hand survives through fear, cult propaganda, the food aid of outside countries, and mass torture, slave labor, and mass executions. All of those factors create a very unstable country whose full reliance on outside countries for their survival requires that they continually take drastic steps to maintain power.

China, the US, and South Korea will not let N. Korea become a fully failed state, for the very reason that the increased instability from that situation would be a danger to everyone in the region. Something that no one has to worry about with a country like France.



Whether the general was actually killed by a mortar is unverifiable, but his reported killing does follow a long pattern of high level executions since Jong Un took power. A pattern that makes it a lot less likely that there would be any need for Western media to fabricate the story. Unusual stories take more review of their authenticity, but the only thing unusual about this story was the way that the general was killed, not why, or whether he it would be likely that he could have been killed. Largely because of that fact, most opposition to the story is more related to antipathy toward the West in general rather than serious analysis.
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Old 31st October 2012, 11:34 PM   #28
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What a bunch of bull..
I will reply only on this one, promised, then stop as we are going off-topic and I do not want to get caught off-topic again.
So, my reply and then stop.
If you wish to continue on this topic, please open another thread.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Here's the difference. The US has a lot of nukes, but it is extremely unlikely that we would give them to anyone to use.
"We” what?
Are you the president of the US?
If not, dear, you count nothing on this and you can not give any nuke to any one.
Sorry for that.
As for the Government of the US giving nukes to anyone, this is not what I was talking about since the US Government can give orders to the US military to use such nukes

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The arsenal of nukes the US holds on to, currently are largely a relic of the cold war, and primarily serve as a deterrent for other nations who also have arsenals of world destroyer weapons to not use them.
BS again.
The NPT requires countries with nukes to get rid of them, and Russia and the US, India, China are not.
At least, India and China adopt the minimum deterrent policy, Russia and the US do not.
As for the “deterrent” argument, you fail to realize that it is reflexive.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Iran on the other hand does have a lot of friends and groups they support who include the goal of killing millions of people as their primary missions. In addition, the Iranian government itself regularly states that carrying out mass genocide would be a great thing to do that they would really like to be able follow through on sometime.
This is crap propaganda that only people brainwashed by Fox News may believe.
Not worth an answer.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Mixing nukes with a country that regularly publically fantasizes about wiping other countries off the map is a very bad idea.
See above.
"Wipe off the map" was a lie made up by Western media. Go get informed.

Even kids know this by now.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The instability of the N. Korean regime which every so often bombs South Koreans and kills massive numbers of their own citizens is also a very problematic mixture for nuclear weapons.
Certainly true.
Considering the fact that most NK leaders, should the regime fall tomorrow, would probably be sent to The Hague for war crimes and imprisoned for the rest of their lives, I fail to see how threatening the NK regime may make them willing to do some concession and not instead push them even further into developing nukes.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
In comparison, very few people are worried that France will ever launch off a nuclear weapon. They have a strong government, and little reason to use their nukes.
Sure.
What about the US with Iran?
Did the US rule out using nukes against Iran?
I remember the good old “all the options are on the map”
Why then Iran should trust the US if the US is giving no guarantee to Iran?

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
N. Korea on the other hand survives through fear, cult propaganda, the food aid of outside countries, and mass torture, slave labor, and mass executions. All of those factors create a very unstable country whose full reliance on outside countries for their survival requires that they continually take drastic steps to maintain power.
Agreed.
And how threatening North Korea of military action would move NK leaders to seek peace and not instead do everything they can to stick to power ?

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
China, the US, and South Korea will not let N. Korea become a fully failed state, for the very reason that the increased instability from that situation would be a danger to everyone in the region. Something that no one has to worry about with a country like France.
Last time I checked, it was China one of the main supporters of NK, and one of the reasons discussed was the China does not want an US proxy near their borders (an unified Korea).
Not that this justifies China` s behaviour

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Whether the general was actually killed by a mortar is unverifiable, but his reported killing does follow a long pattern of high level executions since Jong Un took power. A pattern that makes it a lot less likely that there would be any need for Western media to fabricate the story. Unusual stories take more review of their authenticity, but the only thing unusual about this story was the way that the general was killed, not why, or whether he it would be likely that he could have been killed. Largely because of that fact, most opposition to the story is more related to antipathy toward the West in general rather than serious analysis.
All media, including Western ones, have the tendency to stretch, fabricate, spin and twist news according to their needs.

Last edited by John Mekki; 31st October 2012 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:38 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
What a bunch of bull..
I will reply only on this one, promised, then stop as we are going off-topic and I do not want to get caught off-topic again.
So, my reply and then stop.
If you wish to continue on this topic, please open another thread.
Sure, let me just correct you on a few mistkes...

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
"We” what?
Are you the president of the US?
If not, dear, you count nothing on this and you can not give any nuke to any one.
Sorry for that.
As for the Government of the US giving nukes to anyone, this is not what I was talking about since the US Government can give orders to the US military to use such nukes
I brought up "we," because I live in the country. As for giving up nukes to other people, you brought up Iran. That is one of the main issues with their refusal to allow monitors in to ensure that they are not developing nuclear weapons.

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
BS again.
The NPT requires countries with nukes to get rid of them, and Russia and the US, India, China are not.
At least, India and China adopt the minimum deterrent policy, Russia and the US do not.
As for the “deterrent” argument, you fail to realize that it is reflexive.
Beyond the NPT part, which I agree with, that's your opinion. One that I would consider wrong, but your free to hold it nonetheless.

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
This is crap propaganda that only people brainwashed by Fox News may believe.
Not worth an answer.
LOL, seriously?!? Seriously?!?

Have you EVER read anything they actually say?


Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
See above.
"Wipe off the map" was a lie made up by Western media. Go get informed.

Even kids know this by now.
Yeah, kids who don't know how to read or watch a video.

Adults who can have no excuse besides really not wanting to know that type of information.


Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
Certainly true.
Considering the fact that most NK leaders, should the regime fall tomorrow, would probably be sent to The Hague for war crimes and imprisoned for the rest of their lives, I fail to see how threatening the NK regime may make them willing to do some concession and not instead push them even further into developing nukes.
It is almost somewhat more worrying that the chaos that could result in a rapid destabilization of the government could not be managed by China or other sorrounding countries.

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
Sure.
What about the US with Iran?
Did the US rule out using nukes against Iran?
I remember the good old “all the options are on the map”
Why then Iran should trust the US if the US is giving no guarantee to Iran?
The US does not survive through fear, cult propaganda, the food aid of outside countries, and mass torture, slave labor, and mass executions.

The US has no need to nuke Iran.

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
Agreed.
And how threatening North Korea of military action would move NK leaders to seek peace and not instead do everything they can to stick to power ?
I don't know if you have heard of the "six Nation talks," but the US has been trying to get N. Korea to agree to participate in peaceful talks for as long as I can remember.


Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
Last time I checked, it was China one of the main supporters of NK, and one of the reasons discussed was the China does not want an US proxy near their borders (an unified Korea).
Not that this justifies China` s behaviour
You are definitely right, but China is not entirely happy about that. The US and the UN have also given a significant amount of food aid to N. Korea.

China definitely would not want US bases near their border, but a unified Korea would be create an enormous economic boom for China. If US bases stayed in South Korea, and a transistion was made in a safe and orderly fashion, I don't think that China would be too opposed to the idea.


Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
All media, including Western ones, have the tendency to stretch, fabricate, spin and twist news according to their needs.
Oh yeah, that is definitely correct, but so do readers.

It's easy to focus on external bias, internal is much harder.
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Old 1st November 2012, 02:10 AM   #30
John Mekki
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OK, I will reply once again, hoping that my off-topic will go unnoticed.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
I brought up "we," because I live in the country.
Which does not matter anything.
Any person with a little bit of power in Israel would matter much more than you in decision about the US military than you, who count zero.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Beyond the NPT part, which I agree with, that's your opinion. One that I would consider wrong, but your free to hold it nonetheless.
I think I have quoted facts and logic, anyways..

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
LOL, seriously?!? Seriously?!?
Have you EVER read anything they actually say?
Yawn..
How it is hard to debunk a mind educated by the US media.
From the terrorist newsite “The Guardian” belonging to the radical Islamic country called United Kingdom
“Experts confirm that Iran's president did not call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'. Reports that he did serve to strengthen western hawks.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...jun/14/post155

Stop quoting hawkish pro-Israeli sites, please, you are making fun of yourself..

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Yeah, kids who don't know how to read or watch a video.
Adults who can have no excuse besides really not wanting to know that type of information.
See above.
Repeating a lie 1000 times does not make it true

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The US does not survive through fear, cult propaganda, the food aid of outside countries, and mass torture, slave labor, and mass executions.
But it has exported during the years mass torture, mass executions in many countries in South America, Iraq, Africa, Rumenia, Vietnam among others

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The US has no need to nuke Iran.
And Iran has no need to nuke the US

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
I don't know if you have heard of the "six Nation talks," but the US has been trying to get N. Korea to agree to participate in peaceful talks for as long as I can remember.
Sure.
“Peaceful”

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
You are definitely right, but China is not entirely happy about that. The US and the UN have also given a significant amount of food aid to N. Korea.
So what?

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
China definitely would not want US bases near their border, but a unified Korea would be create an enormous economic boom for China. If US bases stayed in South Korea, and a transistion was made in a safe and orderly fashion, I don't think that China would be too opposed to the idea.
Sorry to say, but your opinion on China` s leadership desires is completely irrelevant to the actual foreign policy of China.


Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
It's easy to focus on external bias, internal is much harder.
This is what I am trying to tell you
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Old 1st November 2012, 04:57 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Based on what?

The labor camps, the large numbers of executions you would accept, but isn't that enough evidence right there of being out what many would term rational control?
I wouldn't call that 'crazy', because...

Quote:
The labor camps are a way of restraining rebellion, but they are also a way of maintaining large scale brutal slave labor.
...they have a specific objective they achieve with the labour camps (suppression of dissent, slave labour). I think it's an egregious breach of human rights, but I would not necessarily call it 'crazy'.

Using a mortar to execute someone though? That's like something a James Bond villain would do. I dunno. I suppose it's possible, but I'd like more evidence than is being presented right now before accepting the claim.

Quote:
The North Korean system is severely broken. The large number of people killed through famine is direct evidence of that.
The famine in North Korea was partly (largely?) caused by massive flooding.

And this is part of what I'm talking about, I guess... a famine caused partly by drought in 'non-enemies' is attributed to drought; a famine caused by partly by flooding in an 'enemy' is attributed to their 'evil system'. Or so it seems, to me...
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:01 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
The NPT requires countries with nukes to get rid of them, and Russia and the US, India, China are not.
At least, India and China adopt the minimum deterrent policy, Russia and the US do not.
Actually, India are not members of the NPT so they presumably don't fall under the obligations of the treaty.

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
See above.
"Wipe off the map" was a lie made up by Western media. Go get informed.
This is not entirely true. Although Amadinejad did not say "wiped off the map", the initial translation of it that way was on Iranian state media.

Nevertheless, Ahmadinejad quite regularly does say "Marg Bar Israel!" (Death to Israel!) and apparently Khamenei has said "The Zionist entity is a cancer which will be cut out of the region". By now it is pretty clear what Iranian leaders are trying to say.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:08 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Captain.Sassy View Post
The famine in North Korea was partly (largely?) caused by massive flooding.
Partly, but more of a "straw-that-broke-the-camels-back". The country had already gone far into reverse in terms of food production thanks to no longer having anyone to bail them out, no regular aid, no oil for farming machinery, and an absolutely atrocious distribution system which was "army-first" meaning that those who weren't in the army ended up having to fend for themselves.

A good book on the subject is "Nothing to Envy" by Barbara Demick.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:14 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Here's the difference. The US has a lot of nukes, but it is extremely unlikely that we would give them to anyone to use.

The arsenal of nukes the US holds on to, currently are largely a relic of the cold war, and primarily serve as a deterrent for other nations who also have arsenals of world destroyer weapons to not use them.
You have given nuclear technology to other countries in the past and continue to do so. The nuclear weapons my country has toted around for the last 50 years or so were largely of US design.

Quote:
Iran on the other hand does have a lot of friends and groups they support who include the goal of killing millions of people as their primary missions. In addition, the Iranian government itself regularly states that carrying out mass genocide would be a great thing to do that they would really like to be able follow through on sometime.

Mixing nukes with a country that regularly publically fantasizes about wiping other countries off the map is a very bad idea.
You can find "bomb them back to the stone age" rhetoric in the US, too. For instance one of the things the US right is running on right now is how they should be "tougher on Iran". Whilst the politicians won't say they want war, many of their supporters do.

And if you're going to tote up how much blood Iranian politics has on its hands in the last decade or so versus how much blood the US has... well the US would lose that comparison rather badly.

I don't claim there's no difference here, by the way. It's true that Iranian leaders openly call for genocide whilst American leaders do not. But personally I think the statements Iran makes are of the "Death to America!" kind of level. They're for public consumption at home, nothing more. I doubt a nuclear Iran would attack Israel, or America. They're not suicidal.

Quote:
The instability of the N. Korean regime which every so often bombs South Koreans and kills massive numbers of their own citizens is also a very problematic mixture for nuclear weapons.
Yes it is. And yet... North Korea, perhaps the most insane nation in the world, has not in fact used nuclear weapons. Interesting, no? It's almost like no matter what people say, no matter how crazy they appear to be, the calculation of "If I do this then I, personally, will almost certainly die along with everything I care about." weighs heavily on them.
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:22 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Yes it is. And yet... North Korea, perhaps the most insane nation in the world, has not in fact used nuclear weapons. Interesting, no? It's almost like no matter what people say, no matter how crazy they appear to be, the calculation of "If I do this then I, personally, will almost certainly die along with everything I care about." weighs heavily on them.
North Korea are not thought to actually have "nuclear weapons" as such. They probably managed a couple of nuclear detonations but their nuclear material is not "weaponised".
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 1st November 2012, 09:20 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post

You can find "bomb them back to the stone age" rhetoric in the US, too. For instance one of the things the US right is running on right now is how they should be "tougher on Iran". Whilst the politicians won't say they want war, many of their supporters do.
Weak stuff.

Not even remotely analogous.

I don't care that you go on to CYA with that little disclaimer of having never said something, but then why bring it up in the first place?
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Old 1st November 2012, 10:58 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
Weak stuff.

Not even remotely analogous.

I don't care that you go on to CYA with that little disclaimer of having never said something, but then why bring it up in the first place?
What I said was that it's not the same but it is similar - which it is. Romney runs on being "tougher on Iran". Many of his supporters openly state that there should be war, and he certainly doesn't rule that out. Threatening war isn't threatening genocide, but it certainly is far more than "remotely analogous".

Indeed it's worse than the things Iran says in some ways since in the case of the US, you can reasonably make the argument that it's not just empty rhetoric because the US actually does attack and invade other countries on a fairly regular basis.
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:07 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
By the way, what is it with you and rushing to the defense of every bloody brutal dictator? Do you feel that they are being unfairly picked on and desperately need your protection?
There is a valid consideration with regards to how the media works. Kim can't exactly sue for libel and there is a market for "wierd and nasty stuff done by north koreans". Thus it is reasonable to question any story that fits that mold without some pretty solid sources.
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Old 1st November 2012, 03:14 PM   #39
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FWIW, IIRC, the map-wiping quote was pretty wrong, but the better translation was something like "wipe off the pages of history," which might even be worse.

However, Seismosaur has a good point about US belicosity compared to Iranian. Especially since the countries we've (I too use we, being in the US) invaded/re-built/targeted surround Iran (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria)

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Old 1st November 2012, 03:25 PM   #40
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IIRC this story originated with The Chosun Ilbo, who used an unnamed source to correct their previous story on the purge, which stated that the executed officer had been killed by firing squad.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
FWIW, IIRC, the map-wiping quote was pretty wrong, but the better translation was something like "wipe off the pages of history," which might even be worse.
One suggestion was "The regime which is occupying Jerusalem should vanish from the pages of time".
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