ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Kim Jong-un , North Korea incidents , North Korea politics

Reply
Old 3rd November 2012, 04:43 PM   #81
John Mekki
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
For Gawd's sake!

This tactic of yours is called "whataboutery". If someone says, "North Korea has locked up tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people in its gulags", your response is, "whatabout the US and Guantanamo Bay". Presumably if someone says, "Guantanamo Bay is an affront to human rights" you would say, "whatabout North Korea!"

No?

No, I thought not. You are selective about how you want to change the subject. Anyway, if you want to talk about all those things that you can't not talk about then why not start a thread on those things and stop cluttering up someone else's thread on North Korea with your "whataboutery".
Do not get too angry, AngrySoba.
Just trying to put things a little bit in perspective.
John Mekki is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2012, 11:23 AM   #82
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
I have never said that everything is either a lie or not a lie.
You are babbling about things that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.
You have already been given plenty examples of where Ahmadinejad has said that he does not want Israel in the Middle East, and how he would like the Country removed.

The problem now is your refusal to accept anything directly stated out of Ahmadinejad's mouth.


Since there really isn't anything more to say on this side topic besides that you don't want to accept information that is contradictory to your world view despite the evidence provided. I suggest you move any further discussion to an appropriate thread where you can see more statements and evidence that is contradictory to your world view that you can ignore.

First and foremost, I would suggest this thread:

General Israel/Palestine discussion thread
Ahmadinejad's statements on his desire to destroy Israel have been brought up a number of times.


Which also is a major topic in this thread:
General Holocaust denial discussion thread


And make sure not to miss this thread as well:
Ahmadinejad says West 'stealing Iran's rain'
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2012, 11:37 AM   #83
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Rare to see something that exceeds "Whippings will continue until attitudes improve."

Before 9/11, when the auto companies were doing well, they had profit-sharing agreements with employees to share a fixed percent. One year, I forget which, Ford had phenmenal profits. This would lead to record profit sharing checks. So the ass in charge reduced it with three arguments of sophistry, one of which was basically employee attitude needed improvement.
It's really not that rare for N. Korea. It's been a standard practice for decades. The only thing that makes this any different is the alledged method of execution. If he was shot, it wouldn't be interesting enough to report, on top of the thousands of others that would have similar stories in N. Korea.

I don't know if I really would compare a pattern of mass executions and large scale death camp slave labor to not getting a bonus because of general moral though.

Those people in the Gulags are literally worked to death, and those too close to death who can't work as much are starved to death. Anyone suspected of dissenting are shot. Moral in that case is not really an issue.

Although I guess I could see how not being able to get the new 55" plasma tv vs. the 47" because someone didn't get their bonus is pretty similar.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2012, 04:19 PM   #84
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,167
Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
This IS entirely true.
The Iranian president never used such words and this point has been clarified beyond doubt and it has been aknowledged by all the people involved.
Therefore, you said a lie.
I have never heard that the “mistranslation” was originated by Iranian media.
In any case, once the issue had been clarified (and it has been clarified already ages ago), all media should have corrected the “error”.
Strange enough, they keep repeating the “incorrect translation” over and over.
And you also keep repeating the “mistranslation”

Virtually everyone who disagrees with the "wiped off the map" translation traces their disagreement to one guy, Juan Cole. He's certainly an educated person, but it really boils down to his opinion versus everyone else who speaks Farsi.

Further, claiming that "must vanish from the pages of time" is somehow less threatening and ominous than "wiped off the map" is a bizarre claim to make. Either way it's a display of Iranian hostility towards Israel. The distinction made is one without a difference.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2012, 04:29 PM   #85
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,167
Originally Posted by gnome View Post
So, knowing it was an incorrect translation, and using it anyway, what would you call that?
He "knows" the translation is incorrect...why? Because an opinion article says so?

Last I heard the New York Times stands behind the translation they published.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2012, 04:47 PM   #86
John Mekki
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
You have already been given plenty examples of where Ahmadinejad has said that he does not want Israel in the Middle East, and how he would like the Country removed.

The problem now is your refusal to accept anything directly stated out of Ahmadinejad's mouth.


Since there really isn't anything more to say on this side topic besides that you don't want to accept information that is contradictory to your world view despite the evidence provided. I suggest you move any further discussion to an appropriate thread where you can see more statements and evidence that is contradictory to your world view that you can ignore.

First and foremost, I would suggest this thread:

General Israel/Palestine discussion thread
Ahmadinejad's statements on his desire to destroy Israel have been brought up a number of times.


Which also is a major topic in this thread:
General Holocaust denial discussion thread


And make sure not to miss this thread as well:
Ahmadinejad says West 'stealing Iran's rain'
As said, you are babbling about things that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

1) Holocaust denial is not a crime, well.., it should not be a crime.
Why is (or should) Holocaust denial be a crime and not be a crime denying the crimes committed by Japanese troops in China during WWII of the crimes committed by US troops in Vietnam?
As said, try to think with your own head.
Not all the times, sometimes would also be OK.

2) Is claiming that someone or somebody is stealing your rain a crime?
I think it is just a silly statement.
Not that other politicians do not make silly statements.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/cs/q...aylequotes.htm

3) The Israel/Palestinian thread is also quite long (too long to read).
I know that Ahmadinejad has made some threatening statements against Israel, my point is that the US leadership also made other threatening statements against Iran, and even worse than them.
So why condeming the former while condoning the latter?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
[..] Either way it's a display of Iranian hostility towards Israel. [..]
While the statement by former President Bush that he refuses to rule out a nuclear strike on Iran and the support given to Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war shows the deep affection that the US have over Iran and the Iranian people.
As repeated many many times, people get dumbed by their own governments and there is little to do about it..

And now I could like to close this parenthesis and go back to discuss about North Korea.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The only thing that makes this any different is the alledged method of execution. If he was shot, it wouldn't be interesting enough to report, on top of the thousands of others that would have similar stories in N. Korea.
Sad but true.
Looks like sometimes the media use the gruesome aspect of some news to get attention while we all forget that there are many other victims silently suffering and dying

Last edited by John Mekki; 4th November 2012 at 04:48 PM.
John Mekki is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2012, 06:36 PM   #87
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,686
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Virtually everyone who disagrees with the "wiped off the map" translation traces their disagreement to one guy, Juan Cole. He's certainly an educated person, but it really boils down to his opinion versus everyone else who speaks Farsi.
This is actually untrue. Who do you know who speaks Farsi that agrees with the "wiped from the map" translation?

My source is not Juan Cole but an Iranian Farsi speaker.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Further, claiming that "must vanish from the pages of time" is somehow less threatening and ominous than "wiped off the map" is a bizarre claim to make. Either way it's a display of Iranian hostility towards Israel. The distinction made is one without a difference.
I agree that the quote evidently shows hostility to Israel. Even more reason to not get the quote wrong as it ends up with people wrangling over trivial matters.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
He "knows" the translation is incorrect...why? Because an opinion article says so?
No. I mentioned earlier in the thread what my source was.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Last I heard the New York Times stands behind the translation they published.
So what?
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2012, 07:54 PM   #88
A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
 
A'isha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
If anyone wants to look it up themselves or check it with a Parsi speaker, the quote from Khomeini was "فرزندان معنوی اسرائیل را از صحنه روزگار محو خواهند كرد", farzandan ma'naviya asrayyal ra az sahneh roozegar maho khwahend kard.

The particular phrase in question is "صحنه روزگار", sahneh roozegar.
__________________
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus

"Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni
A'isha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2012, 10:39 PM   #89
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,686
Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
If anyone wants to look it up themselves or check it with a Parsi speaker, the quote from Khomeini was "فرزندان معنوی اسرائیل را از صحنه روزگار محو خواهند كرد", farzandan ma'naviya asrayyal ra az sahneh roozegar maho khwahend kard.

The particular phrase in question is "صحنه روزگار", sahneh roozegar.
To be honest, it doesn't really matter that much. If the Iranian regime wants to continue to use "wiped from the map" as its translation then why argue with them?
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 01:26 AM   #90
John Mekki
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
[..] If the Iranian regime wants to continue to use "wiped from the map" as its translation then why argue with them?
Just to point out that the Iranian "regime" is.. err.. not a regime.
Well, it depends what you consider as "regime".
In Iran there are elections with a fairly high turnout, and while there have been problems during last elections, still many western-based organizations believe that most of the voters did actually back Ahmadinejad.
So, for example, since US elections have a lower turnout than Iranian elections, and since there are quite a few allegations that some voters are forced out of voting, shall we also call the US Government as "regime"?
What about Italy, where the former Prime Minister privately owned three TV channels and directly controlled the other three public channels.
Shall we also talk about the Italian Government as the "Italian regime"?
If not, why not?
It is the usual game of blaming the others of the same problems that you have in your backyard.

Just to point out.

Since I would not like to continue this off-topic here, if anybody is intended to discuss this off-topic I would suggest to have a spearate thread for this.

Last edited by John Mekki; 5th November 2012 at 01:27 AM.
John Mekki is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 02:17 AM   #91
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
As said, you are babbling about things that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.
Ok, you are the one bringing these topics up, and then change the subject to something different once you get called on a problem with your original argument, but alright I guess, down the rabbit hole we go..


Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
1) Holocaust denial is not a crime, well.., it should not be a crime.
Why is (or should) Holocaust denial be a crime and not be a crime denying the crimes committed by Japanese troops in China during WWII of the crimes committed by US troops in Vietnam?
As said, try to think with your own head.
Not all the times, sometimes would also be OK.
In other words, should the blatant and thinly veiled racism under the guise of "Holocaust denial" be a criminal act.

In most countries the answer is no, but in France it is. In the US, you are allowed to be as racist as you want as long as your actions don't violate the anti-discrimination laws.

I have been to the Auschwitz museum, and the working conditions in Birkenau bore a lot of similarities to the North Korean "Camp 22 and 14."

Holocaust Now: Looking Down Into Hell at Camp 22

It is not for a lack of evidence to the contrary that causes there to be holocaust denyers, it is solely due to a desire to focus racist rage without the more socially inconvenient aspect of directly identifying with racist groups.

It's the same reason there is a 'Birther' movement in the US. There is more than enough evidence to invalidate the groups claims, but it allows it's members to carry out racist goals without having to directly call themselves as such.

None of which should be illegal in my mind, they should just be socially condemned for being the dishonest racists that they are.

As for the US role in Vietnam, that is pretty well accepted, and I don't know of anyone who denies the crimes of the Japanese in China beside a few ultra Nationalist in Japan, but neither of those cases are related to holocaust denial. Like many of the other similar tactics that have been used here, this is just another deflection from addressing the argument at hand, in this case holocaust deniers.

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
2) Is claiming that someone or somebody is stealing your rain a crime?
I think it is just a silly statement.
Not that other politicians do not make silly statements.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/cs/q...aylequotes.htm
Spouting crazed conspiracy theories is definitely not a crime, but it is evidence of mental instability. Along with repeated publically stated desires to remove the existence of a nearby country, massive human rights abuses and attacks on his own people, support for groups in Lebanon that carry out bombings and assassinations, and support for civilian mass murdering campaigns in Syria, it creates a pattern of an instable and reckless man who is widely suspected of actively working towards developing weapons capable of mass genocide.

Which is more than a little 'silly.'

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
3) The Israel/Palestinian thread is also quite long (too long to read).
I know that Ahmadinejad has made some threatening statements against Israel, my point is that the US leadership also made other threatening statements against Iran, and even worse than them.
So why condeming the former while condoning the latter?
I never said that I didn't condemn threatening statements towards Iran.

More importantly, why are using the latter as an excuse to ignore the former?


Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
While the statement by former President Bush that he refuses to rule out a nuclear strike on Iran and the support given to Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war shows the deep affection that the US have over Iran and the Iranian people.
As repeated many many times, people get dumbed by their own governments and there is little to do about it..
The former president Bush? You do know that Obama is president now? and hopefully he will be next year as well.

The threats Iran has made should be taken seriously. Period. There should be no excuse for ignoring their pro-genocidal comments, and their support for mass killings in their region.

Excuses from taking their threats and actions seriously are just that, excuses.

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
And now I could like to close this parenthesis and go back to discuss about North Korea.
Great... although I have my doubts...


Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
Sad but true.
Looks like sometimes the media use the gruesome aspect of some news to get attention while we all forget that there are many other victims silently suffering and dying
It's not just the media. They would not be producing the news that is currently being produced if it didn't sell.

'News' itself is not a very lucrative enterprise, and the 'news' that people watch is rarely a detailed analysis of what is going on in our world. A US study from 2000 tracked the news story choices of 9,209 randomly-selected users on 13 news sites. It found that 26% of the stories were about sports, 13.4% were about business and the economy, 10.9% were arts and entertainment, 10.7% were features, 10.2% was US National, 7% Technology, 6.1% was world news, 5.4% was politics, and the rest was Health, interactive, weather, and other.

A lot of the news that people do look at is confirmation bias. In other words seeking out confirmation that will tell them that what they believe is correct, so they don't have to question their own beliefs, or cause them to question the bias that we all hold.

We live our lives with structure and routine, and much of our news tells us information about stories that could alter that routine, and ways that we can adapt our routine to deal with new events. The weather, the rise and fall of the stock market, terrorist attacks, local crime, and unusual stories that break the norm.

A child born into slavery in North Korea will likely never be the focus of any news story. They will live and die in hard labor, obscurity, and pass on unknown to the vast majority of the world. The only country who can really do the most about it, China, is unlikely to do anything that would not be beneficial to them, and they are highly unlikely to offer assistance to the hundreds of thousands of forced labor slaves held by their ally to the South.

Like many people around the world, we live in a system of unaccountability where guarantees of human rights under the UN charter are given mainly only to those in privileged countries.


Most people choose to ignore the depressing and hard stories of the harsh world we live in. Something that can only be partly blamed on the news organizations that ignore that type of reporting. Through the consumerism of choice, people have chosen not to focus, and many times not even to address that type of information.

The old editor of the LA Times once said at a speech that I was at that they "print what sells." Are the news organizations really to blame that what sells as news is not the in-depth reporting of the full grim reality of the world we live in?
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 02:22 AM   #92
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
To be honest, it doesn't really matter that much. If the Iranian regime wants to continue to use "wiped from the map" as its translation then why argue with them?
Either way you translate it or the other similar statements, it is evidence of Iranian threats towards the existence of Israel.

The only reason it is an issue is because people use it as an excuse to ignore the whole issue altogether. Like this:
Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
Media have the habit of inflating bad news about foreign potentially enemy countries while giving a blind eye to news about bad things regarding their own.
“WMD in Iraq” and “Israel must be wiped off the map” are just two examples of lies from the Western media.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 02:25 AM   #93
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Which brings us back to the heart of the reason why there are executions and mass killings in North Korea in the first place:

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Besides for the most part Cuba, mass killings are just part of what is required for a communist country to function.
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Mass killings (except for the most part Cuba) are just one of the things required for Communist countries to function. Just like regulations are needed for capitalist countries to function.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 06:29 AM   #94
A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
 
A'isha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
To be honest, it doesn't really matter that much. If the Iranian regime wants to continue to use "wiped from the map" as its translation then why argue with them?
Oh, I completely agree!

But you know how I get about these things. I squee over scholarly minutiae, even the pointless ones.
__________________
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus

"Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni

Last edited by A'isha; 5th November 2012 at 06:30 AM.
A'isha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 06:39 AM   #95
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,686
Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
In Iran there are elections with a fairly high turnout.
In North Korea there are elections with a very high turnout.

Would that make North Korea the most democratic?
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 05:07 PM   #96
John Mekki
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Ok, you are the one bringing these topics up, and then change the subject to something different once you get called on a problem with your original argument, but alright I guess, down the rabbit hole we go..
False.
I never talked about Mr. A.` s comment about rain

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
In other words, should the blatant and thinly veiled racism under the guise of "Holocaust denial" be a criminal act.

In most countries the answer is no, but in France it is.
And in Germany as well, I think

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
None of which should be illegal in my mind, they should just be socially condemned for being the dishonest racists that they are.
Yes, but we are not talking about your personal opinion if Holocaust denial should be illegal or not, as your opinion is not exactly what worries world leaders.
We are discussing why and if Ahmadinejad comments on the Holocaust should be considered liable to be called "crimes" or short of that.
This is what you brought up, remember

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
As for the US role in Vietnam, that is pretty well accepted,
What is "pretty well accepted"?
That the US started a criminal war in Vietnam and that commit war crimes there?
Are you sure this opinion is common in the US?

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
and I don't know of anyone who denies the crimes of the Japanese in China beside a few ultra Nationalist in Japan,
You obviously have never been in Japan and know nothing about Japanese people

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
but neither of those cases are related to holocaust denial. Like many of the other similar tactics that have been used here, this is just another deflection from addressing the argument at hand, in this case holocaust deniers.
You did not understand at all the point I was making

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Spouting crazed conspiracy theories is definitely not a crime, but it is evidence of mental instability.
While not ruling out a nuclear strike on Iran is evidence of mental stability.
Take off your pink glasses

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Along with repeated publically stated desires to remove the existence of a nearby country, massive human rights abuses and attacks on his own people, support for groups in Lebanon that carry out bombings and assassinations, and support for civilian mass murdering campaigns in Syria, it creates a pattern of an instable and reckless man who is widely suspected of actively working towards developing weapons capable of mass genocide.
Yawn..

I do not know what you are talking about with “massive human right abuses”, but..
And the comment on Israel were intended torwards a regime change, not an attack to Israeli people, AFAIK

Shall we talk about the US?
Overthrowing the Iranian democratically elected government in 1953, without apologizing to them so far.
Support of Saddam Hussein when he was attacking Iran with chemical weapons.
Assassination of Iranian scientists.
Imposing sanctions that deprive Iranian patients of their needed medicines.
Support of Israel for their human rights abuses on the Palestinians.
Stubborn refusal of accepting the two-state solution that would end the Israeli-Palestinians stand-off
Support for dictatorships in the region (Mubarak, Saudia Arabia, etc.)

Shall I continue?

As said, take off your pink glasses

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
I never said that I didn't condemn threatening statements towards Iran.
But, again, your opinion on this counts nothing.
We are discussing about why Iranians behave in a certain way, your opinion about what is right or not right in principle is not heard by any Government.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
More importantly, why are using the latter as an excuse to ignore the former?
I have repeatedly stated that I think the Iranians are behaving stupid in many ways, but it is them who have been threatened so far

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The former president Bush? You do know that Obama is president now? and hopefully he will be next year as well.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand?

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The threats Iran has made should be taken seriously. Period. There should be no excuse for ignoring their pro-genocidal comments, and their support for mass killings in their region.
I agree with that.
But, if you for once would take off your pink glasses, you would understand the simple truth that our Governments are making exactly the same kind of comments and even worse than that

One day maybe you will get it

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Great... although I have my doubts...


Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
It's not just the media. They would not be producing the news that is currently being produced if it didn't sell.
I agree.
We are all guilty of many of the crimes that are going on in the world, even if we ignore them, simply for not getting informed enough

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
News' itself is not a very lucrative enterprise, and the 'news' that people watch is rarely a detailed analysis of what is going on in our world. A US study from 2000 tracked the news story choices of 9,209 randomly-selected users on 13 news sites. It found that 26% of the stories were about sports, 13.4% were about business and the economy, 10.9% were arts and entertainment, 10.7% were features, 10.2% was US National, 7% Technology, 6.1% was world news, 5.4% was politics, and the rest was Health, interactive, weather, and other.

A lot of the news that people do look at is confirmation bias. In other words seeking out confirmation that will tell them that what they believe is correct, so they don't have to question their own beliefs, or cause them to question the bias that we all hold.
[..]
This is why we should try to read news with open eyes.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
A child born into slavery in North Korea will likely never be the focus of any news story. They will live and die in hard labor, obscurity, and pass on unknown to the vast majority of the world. The only country who can really do the most about it, China, is unlikely to do anything that would not be beneficial to them, and they are highly unlikely to offer assistance to the hundreds of thousands of forced labor slaves held by their ally to the South.
Yes.
But, again, you fail to see the responsibility that the West has in this.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Like many people around the world, we live in a system of unaccountability where guarantees of human rights under the UN charter are given mainly only to those in privileged countries.
Yes, but it is sometimes the Government of the "previleged countries" that keep human rights of other countries in a poor state

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The old editor of the LA Times once said at a speech that I was at that they "print what sells." Are the news organizations really to blame that what sells as news is not the in-depth reporting of the full grim reality of the world we live in?
I agree on this.
At the end, the responsibility is on all of us.
John Mekki is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 05:08 PM   #97
John Mekki
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
In North Korea there are elections with a very high turnout.

Would that make North Korea the most democratic?
No, if you have evidence that people get forced to go to vote.
John Mekki is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 05:09 PM   #98
John Mekki
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Which brings us back to the heart of the reason why there are executions and mass killings in North Korea in the first place:
Yes.
Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, the fascist South American dictaroships backed by the US were "communist countries".
Pink glasses again and again
John Mekki is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 05:14 PM   #99
Captain.Sassy
Master Poster
 
Captain.Sassy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,236
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post


Mass killings (except for the most part Cuba) are just one of the things required for Communist countries to function. Just like regulations are needed for capitalist countries to function.
Many revolutions, (nominally?) communist and otherwise, have a period of mass killing.
__________________
Evolution
a poem

As luck would have it,
people.
Captain.Sassy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 05:23 PM   #100
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,686
Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
No, if you have evidence that people get forced to go to vote.
Well Australia has such coercion. What evidence do you have that people in North Korea are forced to vote? If none then we can say that North Korea is more democratic than Australia. In fact, it must be because it is right there in the name: Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Or you could just use your common bloody sense.

The reason for Iran being called a regime is because of the political structure of the Islamic Republic which rigs elections before they begin by having a Guardian Council which forbids candidates not approved by ruling mullahs. Furthermore, you can't speak out against the regime in public if you don't want to be reported by the authorities. My Iranian friend who translated the Khomeini/Ahmadinejad phrase can give you chapter and verse on the various ways in what you are forbidden from saying.
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2012, 06:11 PM   #101
John Mekki
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well Australia has such coercion. What evidence do you have that people in North Korea are forced to vote?
A voter may cross off the candidate's name to vote against him, but must do so in a special booth without any secrecy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_North_Korea
John Mekki is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 12:06 PM   #102
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
Yes, but we are not talking about your personal opinion if Holocaust denial should be illegal or not, as your opinion is not exactly what worries world leaders.
We are discussing why and if Ahmadinejad comments on the Holocaust should be considered liable to be called "crimes" or short of that.
This is what you brought up, remember.
Facts on whether it is or not is what is important.

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
Yawn..

I do not know what you are talking about with “massive human right abuses”, but..
Than you are purposefully ignoring anything that disagrees with your personal viewpoint.

Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
And the comment on Israel were intended torwards a regime change, not an attack to Israeli people, AFAIK

Shall we talk about the US?
Overthrowing the Iranian democratically elected government in 1953, without apologizing to them so far.
Support of Saddam Hussein when he was attacking Iran with chemical weapons.
Assassination of Iranian scientists.
Imposing sanctions that deprive Iranian patients of their needed medicines.
Support of Israel for their human rights abuses on the Palestinians.
Stubborn refusal of accepting the two-state solution that would end the Israeli-Palestinians stand-off
Support for dictatorships in the region (Mubarak, Saudia Arabia, etc.)

Shall I continue?

As said, take off your pink glasses
You can continue as many excuses for why you don't want to take the abuses of the Iranian or North Korean regime seriously, but they will always just remain excuses.


I am not saying that any war crimes or attacks on civilians should be ignored, but you can't use those as an excuse for ignoring the ones you don't want to address.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 12:07 PM   #103
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
What I Saw in North Korea and Why it Matters

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2012, 08:51 AM   #104
kevsta
RBL CHeck Failed
 
kevsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,016
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post

Fair enough, but the only real question is 'how' he was killed. Not so much 'if' or 'why.'
apart from the accuracy of the weapons systems used, and the "regrettable" collateral damage, there doesn't seem so much difference between a mortar round and this, to me.

I have to admit a morbid interest in the mechanics of a "staged traffic accident" execution though. I suspect its probably not how I would go about organizing such a thing for deserving individuals.
__________________
"The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title." - Anonymous
kevsta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2012, 11:26 AM   #105
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by kevsta View Post
apart from the accuracy of the weapons systems used, and the "regrettable" collateral damage, there doesn't seem so much difference between a mortar round and this, to me.

I have to admit a morbid interest in the mechanics of a "staged traffic accident" execution though. I suspect its probably not how I would go about organizing such a thing for deserving individuals.
Well there is the reason why they were killed.

It is no secret that Al Qaeda and the Taliban are actively working, and have been active in developing plans and carrying out actions to kill innocent people.

Civilians, police men, school teachers, school children. All have been killed in large numbers and many times by the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, and they make no effort to hide the fact that they intend to kill more.

Attacking people with drones who are actively working on trying to kill hundreds of other innocent people, vs. killing someone who "drank during the official 100 day mourning period," or putting someone and their family in horrific slavery without trial because they dissented in some way against a brutal dictatorship is a whole different matter.

I don't see any real connection between the two cases.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2012, 11:28 AM   #106
Morrigan
Crone of War
 
Morrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,262
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
I don't see any real connection between the two cases.
There isn't, just another attempt at "b-b-but, America!".
Morrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2012, 11:38 AM   #107
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
I have been to the Auschwitz museum, and the working conditions in Birkenau bore a lot of similarities to the North Korean "Camp 22 and 14."

Holocaust Now: Looking Down Into Hell at Camp 22
By the way, I don't know if anyone clicked on the link I provided, but I would highly suggest it, and I wanted to share a few parts from it.


Quote:
One unforgettable image, there were two girls and they were trying to take out a piece of noodle from one polluted water pond where they put the garbage. And one guard kicked the kids into the small pond, and they drowned. The pond was very deep, and I felt really sad about that.

...

Former child prisoner and author Kang Chol Hwan describes how prisoners were forced to stone each other to death.

...
Ahn reports that of the 1,500 to 2,000 prisoners who died each year from malnutrition alone, most were kids. This figure does not include deaths from disease, torture, execution, or from the casual murders he recollects:

I saw numerous prisoners killed, especially by beating. I saw one person age between 40 and 50 — he’s old enough because the average age of prisoner is between 40-50 — he was working in brick factory. And as he was older he was moving slowly, he was not working well. And the team master tramped on his loin, and the bone was broken. He was hit by an iron rod that is used to start vehicle engines, and I heard the next day he died.

...

There’s really no telling why North Korea houses its prisoners this way, but it makes sense from the perspective of cold logic. As even the Nazis learned, camps are more secure if they’re less concentrated. Two dozen prisoners in a small village present much less of a threat of rebellion than, say, the large group of prisoners who rose up in the Onsong Camp in 1997. The uprising ended with 5,000 dead, and Kim Jong Il reportedly ordered every trace of the place scraped off the face of the earth. It’s easier to guess why prisoners are housed in huts; the camps’ main method of control is to keep inmates on the verge of starvation and extend them small rewards for informing on each other.

...

One woman told of being forced to assist injection-induced labours and then watching as a baby was suffocated with a wet towel in front of its mother. Many former prisoners told of babies buried alive or left face down on the ground to die. They were told by guards this was to prevent the survival of half-Chinese babies. If fleeing North Koreans are discovered by Chinese police, they are almost always returned home.


...

I witnessed a whole family being tested on suffocating gas and dying in the gas chamber,’ he said. ‘The parents, son and and a daughter. The parents were vomiting and dying, but till the very last moment they tried to save kids by doing mouth-to-mouth breathing.’

...

Camp 16, according to “The Hidden Gulag,” is a place of exile for families of the condemned. In North Korea’s Confucian society, in which every word of the late Great Leader Kim Il Sung is worshipped as holy scripture, the regime strictly obeys his order to root out class enemies for three generations. That’s why North Korea doesn’t just arrest the person who sings a South Korean pop song or makes an unguarded remark about the food supply. It arrests that person’s husband or wife, parents, and children, too.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2012, 01:12 PM   #108
Morrigan
Crone of War
 
Morrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,262
Camp 22 is pretty much Auschwitz, really. No difference whatsoever...
Morrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2012, 02:11 PM   #109
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
There isn't, just another attempt at "b-b-but, America!".
Seems to be a lot of that going around, almost like a cult.
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2012, 02:22 PM   #110
LashL
Goddess of Legaltainment™
 
LashL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35,530
Mod WarningThe topic of this thread is not the translation or mistranslation of Ahmadinejad's comments about Israel. Please get back to the topic at hand - which is North Korea executions/killings - and if you want to argue about Ahmadinejad's comments about Israel, take it to another thread. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.
Posted By:LashL
LashL is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2012, 08:23 PM   #111
Nosi
Master Poster
 
Nosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,808
Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Not so much to apologize for the Kims, but some of this sounds suspiciously overly-weird. Forcing a guy to stand there as you fire a mortar at him is believable enough, if pretty odd.

But the "staged traffic accidents" - I wonder how they staged these and how the informants happened to know about the truth? To stage an "accident" suggests other than the usual driving off the road by unseen drivers who flee the scene. To stage an "accident," you need to ram into them in a deadly way (for them, not you) and then hang around the "accident" scene.

Unless they mean - gasp - staged hit-and-run accidents. Yeah, I guess that could be. So maybe it's not too weird.
All you need to do to stage a traffic accident is to the brakes or slip a timed bomb somewhere under the passenger or driver's seat. Boom.
__________________
__________

Hiding from the
Nosi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2012, 09:42 PM   #112
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
Camp 22 is pretty much Auschwitz, really. No difference whatsoever...
What about the similarities?
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2012, 09:25 AM   #113
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,517
I was under the impression that this thread was about North Korea and some novel ideas about criminal justice.

Should I report this thread, a number of gross rule 11 violaters, and suggest that this thread be sliced and diced into a thread that covers Iran versus its evil satan opponent?

Or will you nice folks get back to the joy of discussing various and sundry interesting things about North Korea?

On the topic of the OP, I am saddened to learn that the execution via mortar round may not actually have been true. I like people who think outside of the (ammo) box.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2012, 09:50 AM   #114
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I was under the impression that this thread was about North Korea and some novel ideas about criminal justice.

Should I report this thread, a number of gross rule 11 violaters, and suggest that this thread be sliced and diced into a thread that covers Iran versus its evil satan opponent?

Or will you nice folks get back to the joy of discussing various and sundry interesting things about North Korea?

On the topic of the OP, I am saddened to learn that the execution via mortar round may not actually have been true. I like people who think outside of the (ammo) box.
It seems most of the talk about Iran was successfully moved to the General Israel/Palestine thread.

Now it's just about whether N. Korea is really that bad, if the camps have any similarity to concentration camps, or if it's more relatable to drone attacks or not getting a bonus check.

As for the execution in the OP, he was told it was just a N. Korean dance party, and he needed to go stand next to the boombox.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2012, 09:53 AM   #115
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,517
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
It seems most of the talk about Iran was successfully moved to the General Israel/Palestine thread.

Now it's just about whether N. Korea is really that bad, if the camps have any similarity to concentration camps, or if it's more relatable to drone attacks or not getting a bonus check.

As for the execution in the OP, he was told it was just a N. Korean dance party, and he needed to go stand next to the boombox.
Heh, and I didn't even report it. Weird morning. My objection seems to have actually been acted upon by someone.

Drone attacks on the concentration camps might be a novel approach to this matter. I am in an "outside the box" mood this morning.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 09:33 AM   #116
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Heh, and I didn't even report it. Weird morning. My objection seems to have actually been acted upon by someone.

Drone attacks on the concentration camps might be a novel approach to this matter. I am in an "outside the box" mood this morning.
So back to the topic of N. Korea.

Why do you think there are so many killings in the country?

Do you agree with my statement that: "Mass killings (except for the most part Cuba) are just one of the things required for Communist countries to function. Just like regulations are needed for capitalist countries to function."
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:13 AM   #117
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 22,721
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Why do you think there are so many killings in the country?

Do you agree with my statement that: "Mass killings (except for the most part Cuba) are just one of the things required for Communist countries dictatorships to function. Just like regulations are needed for capitalist countries to function."
It's not a left/right thing.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 01:15 PM   #118
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
It's not a left/right thing.
All dictatorships? Because some have been downright peaceful although not just and fair.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 05:21 PM   #119
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,517
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
All dictatorships? Because some have been downright peaceful although not just and fair.
Like the one in Syria, right?
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 06:58 PM   #120
Nosi
Master Poster
 
Nosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,808
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Heh, and I didn't even report it. Weird morning. My objection seems to have actually been acted upon by someone.

Drone attacks on the concentration camps might be a novel approach to this matter. I am in an "outside the box" mood this morning.
A drone attack presents two problems.

One, North Korea has an extensive and well tested (on human subjects) chemical arsenal that they would launch at South Korea and the Americans guarding the Korean boarder if they get fissed enough, and a drone attack would roast their backsides nicely. Those chemical weapons could reach Japan and other countries in the Asian sphere.

Two, chemical bombs can hide in cargo containers in cargo ships. They can be designed to blow up once they reach the dock, forgoing the search.
__________________
__________

Hiding from the
Nosi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:48 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.