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Tags Venezuela incidents , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

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Old 7th February 2019, 09:38 PM   #641
lomiller
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
F.A. Hayek (economist) on socialism:
You were doing pretty well until this. IMO Hayek's views on economics are every bit as flawed as Marx.
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:17 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
When did the "forced to sell it even when that meant they were operating in the red" stuff begin? I'm genuinely curious to see your articles, and not just in some "So I can try to debunk/discredit them" sort of way.
Unfortunately I don't have the product of my web-browsing from 5 years ago bookmarked and indexed for easy recall.

Here is a thread that followed the unfolding of the crisis:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=265271

And here is one early mention of price controls contributing to shortages:

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/21/w...per/index.html

Quote:
Businesses and the political opposition say the shortages stem from ill-conceived government policies such as price controls on basic goods and tight restrictions on foreign currency. These moves make it so many producers can't even break even, they say.
Also, price controls create incentive for smuggling:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-23885377

Fixed exchange rate makes imports difficult.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-23970027

Quote:
Many say the fixed exchange rate is also to blame for other problems the Venezuelan economy is experiencing.

Analysts say that imports become difficult because companies cannot access dollars. They say this, combined with an inadequate domestic production of food staples and dependence on imports, is creating shortages.
I remember one particular article that followed a chicken rancher who couldn't sell his eggs for enough to cover the cost of chicken feed. At the time of the article he was still producing, but less than the previous year, which was less than the year before that. If you're interested in finding more, I assume your google skills are as good as mine.
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:29 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In all seriousness, I don't think that's a coincidence.

Digging into this from another angle, I found that Norway is a founding member of NATO while Finland never joined the rogue organization. But that US control scheme over European satellites will be toast soon anyway, to the benefit of everybody.
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:32 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The sub-prime lending crisis and it's implications for the US economy was a near daily discussion on financial channels for years prior to the crisis. Failure to predict how bad things could ultimately get wasn't a failure of economic theory it was an absence of data on just how leveraged and dependent on low quality assets the banking system had become.

Once this information was in hand most economists quickly assessed the potential danger from an economics standpoint, what they could not assess was the ideologically based mismanagement of the crisis first by the President and then by a congress that was overly concerned with moral hazard and insufficiently concerned with liquidity crisis and deflation.
This, from Brookings in 2006, was the general consensus:

https://www.economist.com/special-re...come-the-waves
Quote:
HOUSING PRICES HAVE risen by about 50 percent in the past five years, and more than 100 percent in some hot markets. Many knowledgeable observers believe that the United States is in the midst of a speculative bubble in residential real estate prices that rivals the dot-com bubble of the 1990s and that will have a similarly unhappy conclusion.
Quote:
In August 2005 Paul Krugman argued that there
was definitely a housing bubble on the coasts and that, indeed, the air
had already begun leaking out.2
But:

Quote:
Our evidence indicates that, even though prices have risen
rapidly and some buyers have unrealistic expectations of continuing price
increases, the bubble is not, in fact, a bubble in most of these areas: under
a variety of plausible assumptions about fundamentals, buying a home at
current market prices still appears to be an attractive long-term investment
.
Only leftwing economists like Baker and Hudson (and a handful of gold bugs over on the right) were saying stuff like this:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/6967468.pdf
Quote:
2. The housing bubble has created more than $5 trillion in
bubble wealth, the equivalent of $70,000 per average family of
four.
Through the post-war period 1950 to 1995, house prices grew at
approximately the same rate as the prices of other goods and services, like
cars, gas, and healthcare. Since 1996, however, house prices have risen by more than 45 percent after adjusting for inflation. This unprecedented run-up in house prices has generated more than $5 trillion in housing bubble wealth,
which is the difference between the current market value of housing and the
value if house prices had followed their historic trend and kept pace with
inflation.

Quote:
The collapse of the housing bubble will throw the
economy into a recession, and quite likely a severe recession.
Quote:
6. The collapse of the housing bubble is likely to put major
strains on the financial system and require a federal bailout

of the mortgage market.
Quote:
Of course, if the economy is in a recession, then many homeowners will have no choice but to default on their mortgages. Rising house prices have led many homebuyers to stretch themselves as far as possible to be able to afford monthly mortgage payments. Losing a job or being forced to take a new job at lower pay will leave many recent homebuyers unable to make their payments


Which "financial channels" are you referring to?
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:33 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You were doing pretty well until this. IMO Hayek's views on economics are every bit as flawed as Marx.

Uhm, you didn't point out any "flaws" of Marx, you just wrote some stuff that makes it obvious that you don't even understand the basic layers of economics. Check the Richard Wolff talk I posted on the previous page, likely it's decades overdue.
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:40 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Unfortunately I don't have the product of my web-browsing from 5 years ago bookmarked and indexed for easy recall.

Here is a thread that followed the unfolding of the crisis:
It looks like it started around the time that oil prices dropped to historic lows and the ensuing recession, which triggered the price controls, which led to the hoarding and smuggling and thus shortages.

The fact that "they" (however far back in Venezuelan history it could have panned out differently) allowed themselves to be an oil exporting monoculture seems to be the primary economic mismanagement, to me.
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Old 7th February 2019, 11:01 PM   #647
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btw, you can read 174 posts of mine between 2008-2012 in the thread entitled Send in the tanks! (Chavez) based on one of the usual distorted media reports that have been going on since the Bolivarian movement took over (some) power twenty years ago.

It features some of the regulars here who have been hoping for the worst for the people of Venezuela all those years. I personally stopped seriously discussing this topic on this forum with these people with the death of the heroic Hugo Chavez Frias. May he rest in peace.
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Old 7th February 2019, 11:04 PM   #648
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Here's what Chavez's socialism did to Venezuela's economy:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator..._low_desc=true
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2019-02-08 at 12.07.57 AM.jpg (18.0 KB, 23 views)
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Old 8th February 2019, 12:09 AM   #649
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Venezuela poverty rate, 1997-2013:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...97_to_2013.png
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File Type: jpg Screenshot 2019-02-08 at 1.12.49 AM.jpg (28.3 KB, 6 views)
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Old 8th February 2019, 12:13 AM   #650
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
btw, you can read 174 posts of mine between 2008-2012 in the thread entitled Send in the tanks! (Chavez) based on one of the usual distorted media reports that have been going on since the Bolivarian movement took over (some) power twenty years ago.

It features some of the regulars here who have been hoping for the worst for the people of Venezuela all those years.
https://www.quora.com/Did-CIA-Direct...ieves-is-false

Quote:
Did CIA Director William Casey really say, "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false"?
Quote:
Barbara Honegger, studied at Stanford University
I am the source for this quote, which was indeed said by CIA Director William Casey at an early February 1981 meeting of the newly elected President Reagan with his new cabinet secretaries to report to him on what they had learned about their agencies in the first couple of weeks of the administration.
The meeting was in the Roosevelt Room in the West Wing of the White House, not far from the Cabinet Room. I was present at the meeting as Assistant to the chief domestic policy adviser to the President. Casey first told Reagan that he had been astonished to discover that over 80 percent of the 'intelligence' that the analysis side of the CIA produced was based on open public sources like newspapers and magazines.
As he did to all the other secretaries of their departments and agencies, Reagan asked what he saw as his goal as director for the CIA, to which
he replied with this quote, which I recorded in my notes of the meeting
as he said it.
Shortly thereafter I told Senior White House correspondent Sarah McClendon, who was a close friend and colleague, who in turn made it public.
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Last edited by kellyb; 8th February 2019 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:02 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
He's also the exact same person who "gave a nod" to the failed 2002 coup attempt against Chavez under Dubya according to The Observer.
You've got to see this, if you haven't:

https://twitter.com/senor_pez/status...47017429192704

"The year was 1995. A young Elliott Abrams taught us how to laugh. Maniacally. When Allan Nairn brought up his involvement in the mass murder and torture of indigenous people in Guatemala."

This article on that psychopath is a must-read.
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Last edited by kellyb; 8th February 2019 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:37 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Here's what Chavez's socialism did to Venezuela's economy:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator..._low_desc=true
Oil prices skyrocketed, and that small improvement was the best he could manage? That’s... not really impressive.

Also note: oil prices have now collapsed relative to their peak, but not below where they were before Chavez.
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:47 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oil prices skyrocketed, and that small improvement was the best he could manage?
GPD per capita doubled and poverty went down 30%.
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Last edited by kellyb; 8th February 2019 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:37 AM   #654
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
GPD per capita doubled
Not according to the graph you just posted.
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Old 8th February 2019, 05:12 AM   #655
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Ooops
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:21 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...D=ansmsnnews11

Venezuelan soldiers have blocked a bridge on the border with Colombia ahead of a shipment of humanitarian aid, the opposition says.

The aid is being arranged by opposition leader Juan Guaidó, who declared himself interim president last month.

Turns out what "the opposition says" is hogwash as usual, then parroted by Pompeo, pre$$titutes and their lackeys. The bridge in question hasn't been in use since years. Fake News!
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:53 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And that is why Utopians in Power scare the hell out me: when their schemes fail, they often decide the fix is to eliminate all those flawed humans which keep them from working.
It's clever in a monstrous sort of way.
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:55 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You need to read my post again.

The goals of "Marxism" can be achieved through a variety of systems. Norway is very "socialist" compared to the US, arguable the most socialist country on Earth.
You said you viewed yourself as a Marxist. Mixed economies are not Marxist.

Quote:
Do you consider the Norwegian system the worst system?
They have capitalism.
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:01 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't consider the Heritage Foundation's anything a useful measure of anything at all. The Foundation exists to mislead people.
Perhaps but that doesn't tell us whether their methods to determine these rankings are wrong.

Quote:
He was a great economist
Evidence?
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:09 AM   #660
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Now available: MediaLens' Venezuela Blitz - Part 2: Press Freedom, Sanctions And Oil

re: the fake bridge blockade - a German language article from a correspondent in Caracas adds the information that the bridge was built in 2013-2016 and has never been opened thanks to the difficult political situation. Apparently a Columbian TV channel has claimed that the bridge would be used for Chicago Boy's hand-collected aid, which gave the basis to the blockade hoax.
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:16 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Mixed economies are not Marxist.
Can you show me where Marx decreed that for a country to be Marxist at all, absolutely no free enterprise was allowed whatsoever?

eta:
Who do you consider to be the top American authorities who can decree what is or isn't "Marxist"?
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:18 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Can you show me where Marx decreed that for a country to be Marxist, absolutely no free enterprise at all was allowed?
All you have to do, Kelly, is call yourself a socialist instead of a Marxist, and all this will go away.
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:29 PM   #663
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
All you have to do, Kelly, is call yourself a socialist instead of a Marxist, and all this will go away.
One of my pet peeves is with people who have their own "private"definitions of words, which clash with the commonly used definition.
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:47 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Perhaps but that doesn't tell us whether their methods to determine these rankings are wrong.
They're "taxation is theft" conservatives who think anti-pollution laws are tyranny.

Here's one example by someone else:
http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archi...305miller.html
Quote:
For instance, Bahrain (#20), where the king holds an effective veto over parliament and freedom of expression is limited, ranks higher than Norway (#29), whose comprehensive social insurance and strong environmental regulation drag down its score.
Quote:
An "Economic Freedom Index" that tells us little about economic growth or political freedom is a slipshod measure that would seem to have no other purpose other than to sell the neoliberal policies that stand in the way of most people gaining control over their economic lives and obtaining genuine economic freedom in today's global economy.
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Old 8th February 2019, 02:40 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
All you have to do, Kelly, is call yourself a socialist instead of a Marxist, and all this will go away.
You can call me whatever you want. I listen to an economics professor who uses (or has used) Marx's books as class textbooks, tho. He's where I've gotten 90% of my ideas from on how capital and capitalism works. He's also been described as "one of the greatest American economists" by Nicolás Maduro, the president of Venezuela.

The word "socialist" isn't any less slippery than the word "Marxist", by the way, and hasn't been since the 1940's, at least.

See:
Quote:
The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another.
It's also worth noting that the actual oldschool Communist Party in the US backed FDR:

Quote:
The Communist Party, on the other hand, backed President Roosevelt from 1936 on, and its membership grew steadily, numbering between 80,000 and 90,000 at its high point in 1939. Communists played a role in “left center,” winning electoral coalitions in several states, notably California, Minnesota, New York, and Washington
.

Apparently they saw a system in which gov taxation of private profits redistributes a large chunk of those profits back to the working class (who produced the profits with their labor) for things like universal education, health care, housing, employment security, etc and so on, sufficiently in line with proletarian emancipation, at least as a first step.
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Old 8th February 2019, 03:25 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One of my pet peeves is with people who have their own "private"definitions of words, which clash with the commonly used definition.
Thank you. I get a lot of grief on this forum for exactly that.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Quote:
Perhaps but that doesn't tell us whether their methods to determine these rankings are wrong.
They're "taxation is theft" conservatives who think anti-pollution laws are tyranny.
Perhaps but that doesn't tell us whether their methods to determine these rankings are wrong.

Quote:
You can call me whatever you want.
What you call yourself isn't nearly as important as how people call you. The latter's going to have a lot more impact. So maybe using the correct definitions is a good idea?
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Old 8th February 2019, 03:37 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Perhaps but that doesn't tell us whether their methods to determine these rankings are wrong.
They're evaluating something which is a matter of subjective opinion, not concrete fact.
If you think this:
Quote:
Norway (#29), whose comprehensive social insurance and strong environmental regulation drag down its score.
...makes sense in the context of your own idea of "freedom", then cool. I just hold a different and almost opposite idea about "freedom".

Which, funnily enough, was yet another word on that list of words that had lost firm meaning by the 1940's, so this is nothing new, either:

Quote:
The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another.

Quote:
What you call yourself isn't nearly as important as how people call you. The latter's going to have a lot more impact. So maybe using the correct definitions is a good idea?
Who gets to decide who is and isn't "a Marxist"?

The dictionary definition is:
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/Marxist
Quote:
A Marxist is someone who strongly agrees with the political, economic, and philosophical ideas of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. If you're a Marxist, you're especially critical of capitalism.
I certainly qualify according to that definition.
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Old 8th February 2019, 05:11 PM   #668
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For those who like podcasts, I can recommend this interview (.mp3, 42 Mb, 46 minutes) with Max Blumenthal, co-author of the discussed "The making of Guaido" article. Max is the son of Sidney, arch-Zionist and bosom-buddy of Killary, and has always been on the opposite side of his father when it came to Israel/Palestine, but fell for the propaganda about Syria. He was writing for al Akhbar at the time (a Lebanese outfit that was later strong-armed into giving up their English-language version and are only publishing in Arabic today) and quit over their realist stance on the war against that country. But by now he has understood that he was fooled, and doesn't intent to be fooled again. What also makes the interview interesting, as to the economic angle, is that the host, Scott Horton, is a Ron Paul fan in both the good (foreign policy) and bad ("Austrian" economics) fields, so very opposed to what the Bolivarian movement tried to achieve.
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Old 8th February 2019, 06:27 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You were doing pretty well until this. IMO Hayek's views on economics are every bit as flawed as Marx.
thanks for the half compliment.
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Old 8th February 2019, 06:53 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They're evaluating something which is a matter of subjective opinion, not concrete fact.
What a ridiculous objection. You can collect subjective opinion in order to create useful data. Their method of collecting and interpreting data should be included in their report. What, specifically, do you take issue with, other than the source of the report?

Quote:
...makes sense in the context of your own idea of "freedom", then cool. I just hold a different and almost opposite idea about "freedom".
Really? You don't see their point? Never mind agreeing with it; just seeing it?

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I certainly qualify according to that definition.
An interesting gaffe, Kelly.
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Old 8th February 2019, 08:11 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Max Blumenthal, co-author of the discussed "The making of Guaido" article. Max is the son of Sidney, arch-Zionist and bosom-buddy of Killary, and has always been on the opposite side of his father when it came to Israel/Palestine, but fell for the propaganda about Syria. He was writing for al Akhbar at the time (a Lebanese outfit that was later strong-armed into giving up their English-language version and are only publishing in Arabic today) and quit over their realist stance on the war against that country. But by now he has understood that he was fooled, and doesn't intent to be fooled again.
Max Blumenthal was a strong advocate for the rights of people who were bravely rising up against psychopathic dictators who torture and kill anyone who dissents against their rule, while opposing psychopathic dictators killing and torturing dissenters.


Then he went to Putin's Moscow dinner (yes the same one with other people Putin has bought: Flynn and Stein) and, upon returning, immediately founded an online news website (The Grayzone) which supports murderous and psychopathic dictators and blames the victims who are tortured and killed for dissenting against their rulers, while also spreading conspiracies such as the ones he spread about the White Helmets that only a pure psychopath would spread.

This is pretty much par for the course with all of the Assad/Putin/Maduro supporters.

Last edited by Wayward son; 8th February 2019 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 8th February 2019, 08:59 PM   #672
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Really? You don't see their point? Never mind agreeing with it; just seeing it?
Knowing that they basically define "economic freedom" as being the freedom to exploit and abuse other people and the environment without government interference in order to get or remain mind-mindbogglingly rich, then yes, of course I see how and why they'd think Norway sucks compared to a brutal middle eastern dictatorship.

I take it as a given that economic freedom involves the freedom to unionize, the freedom to change jobs without having to worry about losing health care, the freedom to not live in poverty if you work 40 hours a week, the freedom to not live in poverty if you're disabled, etc and so on.
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:08 PM   #673
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Then he went to Putin's Moscow dinner (yes the same one with other people Putin has bought: Flynn and Stein)

Really? Did he sit at the table with Willy Wimmer? Pics or it didn't happen.
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Old 9th February 2019, 01:52 AM   #674
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Pretty sure anyone who disagrees with US foreign policy when it comes to regime change ops will get called a Kremlin agent now.
It's just how the cold war/red scare 2.0 works.
FWIW, Blumenthal was always against US military action in Syria. I think CNN going full on "incubator babies" again with the Bana al-Abed interview just clued him in to the "proxy war with Russia" aspect of the horrors unfolding in Syria. Reporting on geopolitical conflict in a factually correct way is not something "which supports murderous and psychopathic dictators."
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Old 9th February 2019, 06:23 AM   #675
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Snerk!

https://tribunist.com/news/venezuela...T0Ak3aayacmoxA
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Old 10th February 2019, 04:22 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
The US Marines are going to have lot of fun with this, guaranteed.
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Old 11th February 2019, 01:33 AM   #677
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They look like terrified bee keepers
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:20 AM   #678
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
They look like terrified bee keepers
They look like they want to be future governors of Virginia.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:33 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Knowing that they basically define "economic freedom" as being the freedom to exploit and abuse other people and the environment (snip)
Do you think this is what they believe, in their minds? "Hey, I want to exploit people and destroy the planet"?
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:50 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I suspect that this video was made to give any invading Cub Scouts a false sense of security...
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