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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 15th October 2018, 08:10 AM   #281
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She still "Played the race card". To get an advantage.

But the Sombrero quip makes sense too. Bustamente didn't say which Indian tribe those centi-Morgans came from. Yet he knows they ARE Indian. Aztec or even Mayan? There has been a bit of recent research looking into tribal genes, to the point that tribal identification is possible. And that might be a bit of "Ilite libralness in the scholastic system".
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:11 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
In this thread, we are going to pretend that tu quoque is an actual argument that is worth consideration.

This is, of course, not the case. Rather, leftists only value slurring other posters in any way possible.
So let's just get this settled right here and now:

Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because, according to Big Dog's values, pinpoint accuracy is of the utmost importance.

We both know the bold statement to be false. If I'm wrong, correct me.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:12 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Quote:
Tell that to Trump, who has repeatedly attacked her based on her claims of Native american ancestry.
Okay well you made noise at half of what I said.

Trump made it is an issue, but for him to do that she would have at least first made it a... point I guess.
She mentioned native american ancestry on some forms decades ago and made a few comments about it when discussing racial issues. She did not use it to gain an advantage during the elections or for any political benefit that I am aware of.

The fault that this is an issue is all Trump's doing.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:16 AM   #284
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I hope Warren now lets this (non)issue rest.

We can trust the US media to come back to this (non)issue again and again and again during the primaries and the general election (assuming Warren runs, which I think is a certainty).
She should then just refer to the DNA study and move on to real issues.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:16 AM   #285
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"As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my fatherís family didnít like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope."

Heredity tests come back and show she might have an insignificant amount of native Peruvian.

Our Conclusion: Eight Fauxcahontas
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:17 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
She mentioned native american ancestry on some forms decades ago and made a few comments about it when discussing racial issues. She did not use it to gain an advantage during the elections or for any political benefit that I am aware of.

The fault that this is an issue is all Trump's doing.
She listed herself as a minority law professor. I find that clearly disqualifying for public office and a moral failure.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:18 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my fatherís family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope."

Heredity tests come back and show she might have an insignificant amount of native Peruvian.

Our Conclusion: Eight Fauxcahontas
Thehe DNA test provides nothing on if that is a true or false statement. If she believed that, she isn't lying.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:18 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
So let's just get this settled right here and now:

Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because, according to Big Dog's values, pinpoint accuracy is of the utmost importance.

We both know the bold statement to be false. If I'm wrong, correct me.
That is correct, it should read : Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because it so stupid, Warren should not have crumbled like a sheet of paper and released silly test results that don't support her silly lies.

All better,
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:19 AM   #289
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It gets better:

Trump says 'who cares' after Warren takes DNA test, denies $1 million offer

Quote:
"Who cares?" Trump said when asked about the DNA test. When pressed on the once-promised $1 million payment, Trump responded: "I didn't say that. You better read it again."

In fact, Trump did promise $1 million, during a July rally, but only if the test showed she was "an Indian."

At a rally in July, Trump said: "And we will say, 'I will give you a million dollars, paid for by Trump, to your favorite charity if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian ... we'll see what she does. I have a feeling she will say no but we will hold it for the debates."
Lies building upon lies. Warren claimed some small amount of native ancestry, birther in chief blows it up into a big deal. Now he's got to say that this amount of ancestry does not prove she's an Indian, even though she never claimed to be, but only claimed (correctly) to have some native American ancestry.

Trump lies. A lot.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:20 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It gets better:

Trump says 'who cares' after Warren takes DNA test, denies $1 million offer



Lies building upon lies. Warren claimed some small amount of native ancestry, birther in chief blows it up into a big deal. Now he's got to say that this amount of ancestry does not prove she's an Indian, even though she never claimed to be, but only claimed (correctly) to have some native American ancestry.

Trump lies. A lot.
She further claimed specific tribal ancestry.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:20 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
silly test results that don't support her silly lies.
What lies did she tell?
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:24 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is correct, it should read : Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because it so stupid, Warren should not have crumbled like a sheet of paper and released silly test results that don't support her silly lies.

All better,
Donald Trump promised $1 million to charity if she did, so it does matter.

You do want Donald Trump to fulfill that promise, right?
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:25 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Quote:
Furthermore, if a 'generation' is 25-30 years, that would put the time frame of her native ancestory somewhere around the early 1800s. While that may be outside 'living' memory, it is certainly not ancient history. I know people who have built family trees that go back that far.
You forget that she was born in 1949, which would place six generations back at 1795. That creates so many problems with the Cherokee/delaware claim.

ETA: 1795 is pretty close to early 1800s though, but I wanted to call specific attention to the issues around the trail of tears.
i was also using a generation time from between 25-30 years. However, there is a lot of variance in that (after all, women can become mothers before they have reached the age of 20.)

I do not know the ages when Warren's ancestors gave birth, but if people started having children earlier back then it would push the time frame back to the 1800s.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:26 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
didn't she claim that she had a descendant from the Delaware or Cherokee tribes?

Yeah, no.
Were those claims disproven?
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:27 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
She still "Played the race card". To get an advantage.
Citation needed.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:29 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It gets better:

Trump says 'who cares' after Warren takes DNA test, denies $1 million offer



Lies building upon lies. Warren claimed some small amount of native ancestry, birther in chief blows it up into a big deal. Now he's got to say that this amount of ancestry does not prove she's an Indian, even though she never claimed to be, but only claimed (correctly) to have some native American ancestry.

Trump lies. A lot.

And no surprise that he would hide behind his own loudly proclaimed lies to welsh on a debt.

She has proven the claims she really has made to be true. Trump lied about the claims she made, and uses those lies as an excuse to weasel out.

And he probably can't afford to pay it anyway. He'd have to find someone else's money to do that.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:29 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
She still "Played the race card". To get an advantage.

But the Sombrero quip makes sense too. Bustamente didn't say which Indian tribe those centi-Morgans came from. Yet he knows they ARE Indian. Aztec or even Mayan? There has been a bit of recent research looking into tribal genes, to the point that tribal identification is possible. And that might be a bit of "Ilite libralness in the scholastic system".
Good thing you showed up. I was afraid poor TBD was going to throw his back out lugging those goal posts around all by himself.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:30 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Donald Trump promised $1 million to charity if she did, so it does matter.

You do want Donald Trump to fulfill that promise, right?
He already denied it, so, to borrow a line from Animal house:

"You ****** up. You trusted us."

D. Bluto Blutarsky Trump
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:31 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Were those claims disproven?
6-10 generations make those much more unlikely. The interpretation was that it was Cherokee blood because her family was in Oklahoma and so we're the Cherokee. But at minimum 6 generations, we start having problems of Cherokee not being in Oklahoma and who know where her family was back then.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:31 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Because Native Americans from south of the border aren't Real Native Anericansô.


Cherokee from south of the border?

"As a kid, I never asked my mom for documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage. What kid would? But I knew my father's family didn't like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware, so my parents had to elope."
-- Elizabeth Warren
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:32 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
He already denied it, so, to borrow a line from Animal house:

"You ****** up. You trusted us."

D. Bluto Blutarsky Trump
I want to make sure I fully understand you on this:

Big Dog does not care if Trump lies about donating money to charity.

Would that be an accurate portrayal of your values?
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:33 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
didn't she claim that she had a descendant from the Delaware or Cherokee tribes?
Just as a bit of a side note, one of those tribes was something like a wholly-owned subsidiary of the other one for many years, see this page for some of the relevant history. Delaware are independent of the Cherokee for now, the result of years of negotiations between the two tribes. Iíve been following this legal wrangling for years, since my wife and kids are members of the Delaware Tribe, which does not have a minimum blood quantum requirement.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No I think it is silly to claim that one has Native American history because maybe someone 6 to 10 generations ago might have been native American.
Guessing you aren't from Oklahoma.

The only way to become a member of some tribes round these parts is to show the tribal council you can trace your ancestry back many generations ago.

For example:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Tribal membership is limited exclusively to descendants of Delaware people on the 1906 tribal rolls from Indian Territory.
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Last edited by d4m10n; 15th October 2018 at 08:34 AM. Reason: Formatting
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:33 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Cherokee from south of the border?

"As a kid, I never asked my mom for documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage. What kid would? But I knew my father's family didn't like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware, so my parents had to elope."
-- Elizabeth Warren
Which isnt a lie regardless of her ancestry.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:37 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope."

Heredity tests come back and show she might have an insignificant amount of native Peruvian.

Our Conclusion: Eight Fauxcahontas
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
She further claimed specific tribal ancestry.
Here's the actual report: https://mk0elizabethwarh5ore.kinstac...eport_2018.pdf

Second to last page, caption for Figure 2:

Quote:
In this ancestry specific analysis [3]. the Native American haplotype of the test sample is displayed against a panel of Native American references from across North American. The test sample's Native American ancestry falls between the First Nations (Canada) and Indigenous Mexican peoples, as would be expected for Native American ancestry deriving from the lower 48 states of the United States.
(bolding added)(the "test sample" is Warren's DNA)

The report supports her family's lore. Her results do not show Peruvian ancestry, that's another lie.

The Cherokee were having regular contact with Euro-Americans by the early 18th century, and with sporadic contact for a century before that. The timing still works.

Last edited by crescent; 15th October 2018 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:37 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I want to make sure I fully understand you on this:

Big Dog does not care if Trump lies about donating money to charity.

Would that be an accurate portrayal of your values?
Not accurate

"I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian."

Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:39 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I... don't... care. I don't understand why Elizabeth Warren thought her homeopathic level of Native Americaness was something any of us were the least bit interested in and I don't care that the Republicans think it's a hill to die defending.

There is no angle to approach this discussion from that isn't stupid.
For a demagogue like Trump, whether or not Warren has any native blood, there always was and still is the angle of white resentment of "special rights" for minorities. You can see from the pathetic apologia of the trumpers here that they still accept the lie that Warren took advantage of her heritage claim.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:42 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
For a demagogue like Trump, whether or not Warren has any native blood, there always was and still is the angle of white resentment of "special rights" for minorities. You can see from the pathetic apologia of the trumpers here that they still accept the lie that Warren took advantage of her heritage claim.
So you are saying that Harvard took advantage of her heritage claim? Hmmm.

Plus, isn't putting it in a campaign ad trying to take advantage of it?

Wait, there is a 1/1064 chance this is turning out well for Betsy.

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Old 15th October 2018, 08:44 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
She listed herself as a minority law professor.
It appears that none of the people who were involved in hiring her actually used that as a factor in hiring her. So again, no real advantage to her.

https://www.apnews.com/4d83eff785f146c6a20754a61f5fa503
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:46 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not accurate

"I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian."

Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town.

Oops...
Quote:
Bustamante also compared Warrenís DNA to white populations in Utah and Great Britain to determine if the amounts of Native American markers in Warrenís sample were significant or just background noise.

Warren has 12 times more Native American blood than a white person from Great Britain and 10 times more than a white person from Utah, the report found.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/pol...c:article:stub

Another swing and a miss for The Big Dog.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:47 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not accurate

"I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian."

Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town.
That's not what the test showed.

If you want to lie to yourself, I won't stop you. Please don't lie to me.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:48 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
It appears that none of the people who were involved in hiring her actually used that as a factor in hiring her. So again, no real advantage to her.

https://www.apnews.com/4d83eff785f146c6a20754a61f5fa503
Not relevant to me. It is about her character to me and she doesn't measure up.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:53 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
There are two possibilities here:

1. You acknowledge Trumps accusation, and he still gets to counter your response. (THIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS FORGED)

2. You do not acknowledge Trumps accusation, and say that his accusation is not worthy of a response. As was shown in the movie The Contender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Contender_(2000_film)
Truth just doesn't matter to you, does it?

Illustrative example: Drewbot is a pedophile.

Either respond (in which case I may counter with an equally baseless claim) or do not acknowledge (in which case I will repeat this scurrilous and baseless accusation far and wide). Am I alpha now?

Note for the clueless: I have no reason to believe that Drewbot is a pedophile. (Trump addendum: but a lot of people are talking about it.)
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:53 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
That's not what the test showed.

If you want to lie to yourself, I won't stop you. Please don't lie to me.
Well, that is what Trump said, so...
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:54 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Here's the actual report: https://mk0elizabethwarh5ore.kinstac...eport_2018.pdf

Second to last page, caption for Figure 2:

(bolding added)(the "test sample" is Warren's DNA)

The report supports her family's lore. Her results do not show Peruvian ancestry, that's another lie.

The Cherokee were having regular contact with Euro-Americans by the early 18th century, and with sporadic contact for a century before that. The timing still works.
Her story seems clearly describing relations that occurred in Oklahoma. If the source of Cherokee blood is pre Oklahoma and they just so happened to end up in Oklahoma with the Cherokee, I don't think that aligns.
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:54 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, that is what Trump said, so...
Is this the part where I say "rule of so?"
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Old 15th October 2018, 08:57 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Is this the part where I say "rule of so?"
Nope, although there is an example in this thread....

"So Elizabeth Warren is *possibly* 1/1024 (0.09%) Native American. Scientists say the average European-American is 0.18% Native American."
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:06 AM   #317
crescent
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Her story seems clearly describing relations that occurred in Oklahoma. If the source of Cherokee blood is pre Oklahoma and they just so happened to end up in Oklahoma with the Cherokee, I don't think that aligns.
If the intermarriage from the family story occurred in Oklahoma, it can still work - the marriage in question might have been with someone who was themselves mixed race. Many of the Cherokee were themselves of mixed race generations before the expulsion to Oklahoma.

Remember, we are looking at the marriage of Warren's parents, nearly a century ago. The "one drop" rule was still a thing, in culture at least. So Warren's mother's family was suspected of being part native American. that could easily mean that they just knew that Warren's mother's grandmother married a Cherokee who might have had predominantly white ancestry to begin with

(I know that legally, the "one drop rule" didn't apply to Native American ancestry. But culturally, it probably still did in many circles.)

I gotta add, one of the whitest white people I've ever known (fair skin, blue eyes, white-blonde hair) had an ancestor on the Dawes role and was an active member of the Cherokee tribe. You can't miss those strong twangy Okie accents. You don't need to look even remotely Native American to actually be Native American, in the sense of having shared ancestry and culture.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:06 AM   #318
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nope, although there is an example in this thread....

"So Elizabeth Warren is *possibly* 1/1024 (0.09%) Native American. Scientists say the average European-American is 0.18% Native American."
Which is one of the reasons many felt the complaints about her claims were misplaced. So many people do have mixed heritage.

Not me though.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:06 AM   #319
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I've been seeing responses saying things like, "Oh, but she's not actually part of the tribe" and stuff like that.

And the answer is, of course not. And she never claimed to be.

But yeah, knock down that straw man.

She's going after Trump to give the million dollars. His response is .... weird. It's one thing to say, "I wasn't serious" when your bluff gets called. Or "that's not good enough." But the whole, "I didn't say that" is just mental.

I mean, who are the supporters stupid enough to buy that?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:08 AM   #320
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
If the intermarriage from the family story occurred in Oklahoma, it can still work - the marriage in question might have been with someone who was themselves mixed race. Many of the Cherokee were themselves of mixed race generations before the expulsion to Oklahoma.

Remember, we are looking at the marriage of Warren's parents, nearly a century ago. The "one drop" rule was still a thing, in culture at least. So Warren's mother's family was suspected of being part native American. that could easily mean that they just knew that Warren's mother's grandmother married a Cherokee who might have had predominantly white ancestry to begin with

(I know that legally, the "one drop rule" didn't apply to Native American ancestry. But culturally, it probably still did in many circles.)

I gotta add, one of the whitest white people I've ever known (fair skin, blue eyes, white-blonde hair) had an ancestor on the Dawes role and was an active member of the Cherokee tribe. You can't miss those strong twangy Okie accents. You don't need to look even remotely Native American to actually be Native American, in the sense of having shared ancestry and culture.
That is all a lot of coincidences trafficking in the traditional Oklahoma narrative that is post 1840 relocation ancestry.
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