Elizabeth Warren Ancestry Thread - Page 8

casebro · 15th October 2018, 08:10 AM

She still "Played the race card". To get an advantage.

But the Sombrero quip makes sense too. Bustamente didn't say which Indian tribe those centi-Morgans came from. Yet he knows they ARE Indian. Aztec or even Mayan? There has been a bit of recent research looking into tribal genes, to the point that tribal identification is possible. And that might be a bit of "Ilite libralness in the scholastic system".

I Am The Scum · 15th October 2018, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

In this thread, we are going to pretend that tu quoque is an actual argument that is worth consideration.

This is, of course, not the case. Rather, leftists only value slurring other posters in any way possible.

So let's just get this settled right here and now:

Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because, according to Big Dog's values, pinpoint accuracy is of the utmost importance.

We both know the bold statement to be false. If I'm wrong, correct me.

Segnosaur · 15th October 2018, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Quote:

Tell that to Trump, who has repeatedly attacked her based on her claims of Native american ancestry.

Okay well you made noise at half of what I said.

Trump made it is an issue, but for him to do that she would have at least first made it a... point I guess.

She mentioned native american ancestry on some forms decades ago and made a few comments about it when discussing racial issues. She did not use it to gain an advantage during the elections or for any political benefit that I am aware of.

The fault that this is an issue is all Trump's doing.

Firestone · 15th October 2018, 08:16 AM

I hope Warren now lets this (non)issue rest.

We can trust the US media to come back to this (non)issue again and again and again during the primaries and the general election (assuming Warren runs, which I think is a certainty).
She should then just refer to the DNA study and move on to real issues.

The Big Dog · 15th October 2018, 08:16 AM

"As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope."

Heredity tests come back and show she might have an insignificant amount of native Peruvian.

Our Conclusion: Eight Fauxcahontas

BobTheCoward · 15th October 2018, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

She mentioned native american ancestry on some forms decades ago and made a few comments about it when discussing racial issues. She did not use it to gain an advantage during the elections or for any political benefit that I am aware of.

The fault that this is an issue is all Trump's doing.

She listed herself as a minority law professor. I find that clearly disqualifying for public office and a moral failure.

BobTheCoward · 15th October 2018, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

"As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope."

Heredity tests come back and show she might have an insignificant amount of native Peruvian.

Our Conclusion: Eight Fauxcahontas

Thehe DNA test provides nothing on if that is a true or false statement. If she believed that, she isn't lying.

The Big Dog · 15th October 2018, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

So let's just get this settled right here and now:

Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because, according to Big Dog's values, pinpoint accuracy is of the utmost importance.

We both know the bold statement to be false. If I'm wrong, correct me.

That is correct, it should read : Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because it so stupid, Warren should not have crumbled like a sheet of paper and released silly test results that don't support her silly lies.

All better,

crescent · 15th October 2018, 08:19 AM

It gets better:

Trump says 'who cares' after Warren takes DNA test, denies $1 million offer

Quote:

"Who cares?" Trump said when asked about the DNA test. When pressed on the once-promised $1 million payment, Trump responded: "I didn't say that. You better read it again."

In fact, Trump did promise $1 million, during a July rally, but only if the test showed she was "an Indian."

At a rally in July, Trump said: "And we will say, 'I will give you a million dollars, paid for by Trump, to your favorite charity if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian ... we'll see what she does. I have a feeling she will say no but we will hold it for the debates."

Lies building upon lies. Warren claimed some small amount of native ancestry, birther in chief blows it up into a big deal. Now he's got to say that this amount of ancestry does not prove she's an Indian, even though she never claimed to be, but only claimed (correctly) to have some native American ancestry.

Trump lies. A lot.

BobTheCoward · 15th October 2018, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by crescent

It gets better:

Trump says 'who cares' after Warren takes DNA test, denies $1 million offer

Lies building upon lies. Warren claimed some small amount of native ancestry, birther in chief blows it up into a big deal. Now he's got to say that this amount of ancestry does not prove she's an Indian, even though she never claimed to be, but only claimed (correctly) to have some native American ancestry.

Trump lies. A lot.

She further claimed specific tribal ancestry.

crescent · 15th October 2018, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

silly test results that don't support her silly lies.

What lies did she tell?

I Am The Scum · 15th October 2018, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

That is correct, it should read : Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because it so stupid, Warren should not have crumbled like a sheet of paper and released silly test results that don't support her silly lies.

All better,

Donald Trump promised $1 million to charity if she did, so it does matter.

You do want Donald Trump to fulfill that promise, right?

Segnosaur · 15th October 2018, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Quote:

Furthermore, if a 'generation' is 25-30 years, that would put the time frame of her native ancestory somewhere around the early 1800s. While that may be outside 'living' memory, it is certainly not ancient history. I know people who have built family trees that go back that far.

You forget that she was born in 1949, which would place six generations back at 1795. That creates so many problems with the Cherokee/delaware claim.

ETA: 1795 is pretty close to early 1800s though, but I wanted to call specific attention to the issues around the trail of tears.

i was also using a generation time from between 25-30 years. However, there is a lot of variance in that (after all, women can become mothers before they have reached the age of 20.)

I do not know the ages when Warren's ancestors gave birth, but if people started having children earlier back then it would push the time frame back to the 1800s.

johnny karate · 15th October 2018, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

didn't she claim that she had a descendant from the Delaware or Cherokee tribes?

Yeah, no.

Were those claims disproven?

Upchurch · 15th October 2018, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

She still "Played the race card". To get an advantage.

Citation needed.

quadraginta · 15th October 2018, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by crescent

It gets better:

Trump says 'who cares' after Warren takes DNA test, denies $1 million offer

Lies building upon lies. Warren claimed some small amount of native ancestry, birther in chief blows it up into a big deal. Now he's got to say that this amount of ancestry does not prove she's an Indian, even though she never claimed to be, but only claimed (correctly) to have some native American ancestry.

Trump lies. A lot.

And no surprise that he would hide behind his own loudly proclaimed lies to welsh on a debt.

She has proven the claims she really has made to be true. Trump lied about the claims she made, and uses those lies as an excuse to weasel out.

And he probably can't afford to pay it anyway. He'd have to find someone else's money to do that.

johnny karate · 15th October 2018, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

She still "Played the race card". To get an advantage.

But the Sombrero quip makes sense too. Bustamente didn't say which Indian tribe those centi-Morgans came from. Yet he knows they ARE Indian. Aztec or even Mayan? There has been a bit of recent research looking into tribal genes, to the point that tribal identification is possible. And that might be a bit of "Ilite libralness in the scholastic system".

Good thing you showed up. I was afraid poor TBD was going to throw his back out lugging those goal posts around all by himself.

The Big Dog · 15th October 2018, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

Donald Trump promised $1 million to charity if she did, so it does matter.

You do want Donald Trump to fulfill that promise, right?

He already denied it, so, to borrow a line from Animal house:

"You ****** up. You trusted us."

D. Bluto Blutarsky Trump

BobTheCoward · 15th October 2018, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Were those claims disproven?

6-10 generations make those much more unlikely. The interpretation was that it was Cherokee blood because her family was in Oklahoma and so we're the Cherokee. But at minimum 6 generations, we start having problems of Cherokee not being in Oklahoma and who know where her family was back then.

Slings and Arrows · 15th October 2018, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Because Native Americans from south of the border aren't Real Native Anericans™.

Cherokee from south of the border?

"As a kid, I never asked my mom for documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage. What kid would? But I knew my father's family didn't like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware, so my parents had to elope."
-- Elizabeth Warren

I Am The Scum · 15th October 2018, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

He already denied it, so, to borrow a line from Animal house:

"You ****** up. You trusted us."

D. Bluto Blutarsky Trump

I want to make sure I fully understand you on this:

Big Dog does not care if Trump lies about donating money to charity.

Would that be an accurate portrayal of your values?

d4m10n · 15th October 2018, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

didn't she claim that she had a descendant from the Delaware or Cherokee tribes?

Just as a bit of a side note, one of those tribes was something like a wholly-owned subsidiary of the other one for many years, see this page for some of the relevant history. Delaware are independent of the Cherokee for now, the result of years of negotiations between the two tribes. I’ve been following this legal wrangling for years, since my wife and kids are members of the Delaware Tribe, which does not have a minimum blood quantum requirement.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

No I think it is silly to claim that one has Native American history because maybe someone 6 to 10 generations ago might have been native American.

Guessing you aren't from Oklahoma.

The only way to become a member of some tribes round these parts is to show the tribal council you can trace your ancestry back many generations ago.

For example:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Tribal membership is limited exclusively to descendants of Delaware people on the 1906 tribal rolls from Indian Territory.

BobTheCoward · 15th October 2018, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows

Cherokee from south of the border?

"As a kid, I never asked my mom for documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage. What kid would? But I knew my father's family didn't like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware, so my parents had to elope."
-- Elizabeth Warren

Which isnt a lie regardless of her ancestry.

crescent · 15th October 2018, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

"As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope."

Heredity tests come back and show she might have an insignificant amount of native Peruvian.

Our Conclusion: Eight Fauxcahontas

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

She further claimed specific tribal ancestry.

Here's the actual report: https://mk0elizabethwarh5ore.kinstac...eport_2018.pdf

Second to last page, caption for Figure 2:

Quote:

In this ancestry specific analysis [3]. the Native American haplotype of the test sample is displayed against a panel of Native American references from across North American. The test sample's Native American ancestry falls between the First Nations (Canada) and Indigenous Mexican peoples, as would be expected for Native American ancestry deriving from the lower 48 states of the United States.

(bolding added)(the "test sample" is Warren's DNA)

The report supports her family's lore. Her results do not show Peruvian ancestry, that's another lie.

The Cherokee were having regular contact with Euro-Americans by the early 18th century, and with sporadic contact for a century before that. The timing still works.

The Big Dog · 15th October 2018, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

I want to make sure I fully understand you on this:

Big Dog does not care if Trump lies about donating money to charity.

Would that be an accurate portrayal of your values?

Not accurate

"I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian."

Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town.

WilliamSeger · 15th October 2018, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I... don't... care. I don't understand why Elizabeth Warren thought her homeopathic level of Native Americaness was something any of us were the least bit interested in and I don't care that the Republicans think it's a hill to die defending.

There is no angle to approach this discussion from that isn't stupid.

For a demagogue like Trump, whether or not Warren has any native blood, there always was and still is the angle of white resentment of "special rights" for minorities. You can see from the pathetic apologia of the trumpers here that they still accept the lie that Warren took advantage of her heritage claim.

The Big Dog · 15th October 2018, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

For a demagogue like Trump, whether or not Warren has any native blood, there always was and still is the angle of white resentment of "special rights" for minorities. You can see from the pathetic apologia of the trumpers here that they still accept the lie that Warren took advantage of her heritage claim.

So you are saying that Harvard took advantage of her heritage claim? Hmmm.

Plus, isn't putting it in a campaign ad trying to take advantage of it?

Wait, there is a 1/1064 chance this is turning out well for Betsy.

Segnosaur · 15th October 2018, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

She listed herself as a minority law professor.

It appears that none of the people who were involved in hiring her actually used that as a factor in hiring her. So again, no real advantage to her.

https://www.apnews.com/4d83eff785f146c6a20754a61f5fa503

johnny karate · 15th October 2018, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Not accurate

"I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian."

Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town.

Oops...

Quote:

Bustamante also compared Warren’s DNA to white populations in Utah and Great Britain to determine if the amounts of Native American markers in Warren’s sample were significant or just background noise.

Warren has 12 times more Native American blood than a white person from Great Britain and 10 times more than a white person from Utah, the report found.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/pol...c:article:stub

Another swing and a miss for The Big Dog.

I Am The Scum · 15th October 2018, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Not accurate

"I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian."

Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town.

That's not what the test showed.

If you want to lie to yourself, I won't stop you. Please don't lie to me.

BobTheCoward · 15th October 2018, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

It appears that none of the people who were involved in hiring her actually used that as a factor in hiring her. So again, no real advantage to her.

https://www.apnews.com/4d83eff785f146c6a20754a61f5fa503

Not relevant to me. It is about her character to me and she doesn't measure up.

phiwum · 15th October 2018, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Drewbot

There are two possibilities here:

1. You acknowledge Trumps accusation, and he still gets to counter your response. (THIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS FORGED)

2. You do not acknowledge Trumps accusation, and say that his accusation is not worthy of a response. As was shown in the movie The Contender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Contender_(2000_film)

Truth just doesn't matter to you, does it?

Illustrative example: Drewbot is a pedophile.

Either respond (in which case I may counter with an equally baseless claim) or do not acknowledge (in which case I will repeat this scurrilous and baseless accusation far and wide). Am I alpha now?

Note for the clueless: I have no reason to believe that Drewbot is a pedophile. (Trump addendum: but a lot of people are talking about it.)

The Big Dog · 15th October 2018, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

That's not what the test showed.

If you want to lie to yourself, I won't stop you. Please don't lie to me.

Well, that is what Trump said, so...

BobTheCoward · 15th October 2018, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by crescent

Here's the actual report: https://mk0elizabethwarh5ore.kinstac...eport_2018.pdf

Second to last page, caption for Figure 2:

(bolding added)(the "test sample" is Warren's DNA)

The report supports her family's lore. Her results do not show Peruvian ancestry, that's another lie.

The Cherokee were having regular contact with Euro-Americans by the early 18th century, and with sporadic contact for a century before that. The timing still works.

Her story seems clearly describing relations that occurred in Oklahoma. If the source of Cherokee blood is pre Oklahoma and they just so happened to end up in Oklahoma with the Cherokee, I don't think that aligns.

I Am The Scum · 15th October 2018, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Well, that is what Trump said, so...

Is this the part where I say "rule of so?"

The Big Dog · 15th October 2018, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

Is this the part where I say "rule of so?"

Nope, although there is an example in this thread....

"So Elizabeth Warren is *possibly* 1/1024 (0.09%) Native American. Scientists say the average European-American is 0.18% Native American."

crescent · 15th October 2018, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Her story seems clearly describing relations that occurred in Oklahoma. If the source of Cherokee blood is pre Oklahoma and they just so happened to end up in Oklahoma with the Cherokee, I don't think that aligns.

If the intermarriage from the family story occurred in Oklahoma, it can still work - the marriage in question might have been with someone who was themselves mixed race. Many of the Cherokee were themselves of mixed race generations before the expulsion to Oklahoma.

Remember, we are looking at the marriage of Warren's parents, nearly a century ago. The "one drop" rule was still a thing, in culture at least. So Warren's mother's family was suspected of being part native American. that could easily mean that they just knew that Warren's mother's grandmother married a Cherokee who might have had predominantly white ancestry to begin with

(I know that legally, the "one drop rule" didn't apply to Native American ancestry. But culturally, it probably still did in many circles.)

I gotta add, one of the whitest white people I've ever known (fair skin, blue eyes, white-blonde hair) had an ancestor on the Dawes role and was an active member of the Cherokee tribe. You can't miss those strong twangy Okie accents. You don't need to look even remotely Native American to actually be Native American, in the sense of having shared ancestry and culture.

BobTheCoward · 15th October 2018, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Nope, although there is an example in this thread....

"So Elizabeth Warren is *possibly* 1/1024 (0.09%) Native American. Scientists say the average European-American is 0.18% Native American."

Which is one of the reasons many felt the complaints about her claims were misplaced. So many people do have mixed heritage.

Not me though.

pgwenthold · 15th October 2018, 09:06 AM

I've been seeing responses saying things like, "Oh, but she's not actually part of the tribe" and stuff like that.

And the answer is, of course not. And she never claimed to be.

But yeah, knock down that straw man.

She's going after Trump to give the million dollars. His response is .... weird. It's one thing to say, "I wasn't serious" when your bluff gets called. Or "that's not good enough." But the whole, "I didn't say that" is just mental.

I mean, who are the supporters stupid enough to buy that?

BobTheCoward · 15th October 2018, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by crescent

If the intermarriage from the family story occurred in Oklahoma, it can still work - the marriage in question might have been with someone who was themselves mixed race. Many of the Cherokee were themselves of mixed race generations before the expulsion to Oklahoma.

Remember, we are looking at the marriage of Warren's parents, nearly a century ago. The "one drop" rule was still a thing, in culture at least. So Warren's mother's family was suspected of being part native American. that could easily mean that they just knew that Warren's mother's grandmother married a Cherokee who might have had predominantly white ancestry to begin with

(I know that legally, the "one drop rule" didn't apply to Native American ancestry. But culturally, it probably still did in many circles.)

I gotta add, one of the whitest white people I've ever known (fair skin, blue eyes, white-blonde hair) had an ancestor on the Dawes role and was an active member of the Cherokee tribe. You can't miss those strong twangy Okie accents. You don't need to look even remotely Native American to actually be Native American, in the sense of having shared ancestry and culture.

That is all a lot of coincidences trafficking in the traditional Oklahoma narrative that is post 1840 relocation ancestry.

15th October 2018, 08:10 AM	#281
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 16,261	She still "Played the race card". To get an advantage. But the Sombrero quip makes sense too. Bustamente didn't say which Indian tribe those centi-Morgans came from. Yet he knows they ARE Indian. Aztec or even Mayan? There has been a bit of recent research looking into tribal genes, to the point that tribal identification is possible. And that might be a bit of "Ilite libralness in the scholastic system".
	__________________ Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.

15th October 2018, 08:12 AM	#283
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,295	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Quote: Tell that to Trump, who has repeatedly attacked her based on her claims of Native american ancestry. Okay well you made noise at half of what I said. Trump made it is an issue, but for him to do that she would have at least first made it a... point I guess. She mentioned native american ancestry on some forms decades ago and made a few comments about it when discussing racial issues. She did not use it to gain an advantage during the elections or for any political benefit that I am aware of. The fault that this is an issue is all Trump's doing.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

15th October 2018, 08:16 AM	#284
Firestone Proud Award Award recipient Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,068	I hope Warren now lets this (non)issue rest. We can trust the US media to come back to this (non)issue again and again and again during the primaries and the general election (assuming Warren runs, which I think is a certainty). She should then just refer to the DNA study and move on to real issues.
	__________________ The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan

15th October 2018, 08:16 AM	#285
The Big Dog Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,024	"As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope." Heredity tests come back and show she might have an insignificant amount of native Peruvian. Our Conclusion: Eight Fauxcahontas
	__________________ I'm your obsession

15th October 2018, 08:18 AM	#288
The Big Dog Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,024	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum So let's just get this settled right here and now: Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because, according to Big Dog's values, pinpoint accuracy is of the utmost importance. We both know the bold statement to be false. If I'm wrong, correct me. That is correct, it should read : Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because it so stupid, Warren should not have crumbled like a sheet of paper and released silly test results that don't support her silly lies. All better,
	__________________ I'm your obsession

15th October 2018, 08:11 AM	#282
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,672	Originally Posted by The Big Dog In this thread, we are going to pretend that tu quoque is an actual argument that is worth consideration. This is, of course, not the case. Rather, leftists only value slurring other posters in any way possible. So let's just get this settled right here and now: Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because, according to Big Dog's values, pinpoint accuracy is of the utmost importance. We both know the bold statement to be false. If I'm wrong, correct me.

15th October 2018, 08:17 AM	#286
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,707	Originally Posted by Segnosaur She mentioned native american ancestry on some forms decades ago and made a few comments about it when discussing racial issues. She did not use it to gain an advantage during the elections or for any political benefit that I am aware of. The fault that this is an issue is all Trump's doing. She listed herself as a minority law professor. I find that clearly disqualifying for public office and a moral failure.

15th October 2018, 08:18 AM	#287
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,707	Originally Posted by The Big Dog "As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope." Heredity tests come back and show she might have an insignificant amount of native Peruvian. Our Conclusion: Eight Fauxcahontas Thehe DNA test provides nothing on if that is a true or false statement. If she believed that, she isn't lying.

15th October 2018, 08:19 AM	#289
crescent Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,893	It gets better: Trump says 'who cares' after Warren takes DNA test, denies $1 million offer Quote: "Who cares?" Trump said when asked about the DNA test. When pressed on the once-promised $1 million payment, Trump responded: "I didn't say that. You better read it again." In fact, Trump did promise $1 million, during a July rally, but only if the test showed she was "an Indian." At a rally in July, Trump said: "And we will say, 'I will give you a million dollars, paid for by Trump, to your favorite charity if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian ... we'll see what she does. I have a feeling she will say no but we will hold it for the debates." Lies building upon lies. Warren claimed some small amount of native ancestry, birther in chief blows it up into a big deal. Now he's got to say that this amount of ancestry does not prove she's an Indian, even though she never claimed to be, but only claimed (correctly) to have some native American ancestry. Trump lies. A lot.
crescent Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,893

15th October 2018, 08:20 AM	#290
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,707	Originally Posted by crescent It gets better: Trump says 'who cares' after Warren takes DNA test, denies $1 million offer Lies building upon lies. Warren claimed some small amount of native ancestry, birther in chief blows it up into a big deal. Now he's got to say that this amount of ancestry does not prove she's an Indian, even though she never claimed to be, but only claimed (correctly) to have some native American ancestry. Trump lies. A lot. She further claimed specific tribal ancestry.

15th October 2018, 08:20 AM	#291
crescent Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,893	Originally Posted by The Big Dog silly test results that don't support her silly lies. What lies did she tell?
crescent Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,893

15th October 2018, 08:24 AM	#292
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,672	Originally Posted by The Big Dog That is correct, it should read : Big Dog is critical of Senator Warren on this issue because it so stupid, Warren should not have crumbled like a sheet of paper and released silly test results that don't support her silly lies. All better, Donald Trump promised $1 million to charity if she did, so it does matter. You do want Donald Trump to fulfill that promise, right?

15th October 2018, 08:25 AM	#293
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,295	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Quote: Furthermore, if a 'generation' is 25-30 years, that would put the time frame of her native ancestory somewhere around the early 1800s. While that may be outside 'living' memory, it is certainly not ancient history. I know people who have built family trees that go back that far. You forget that she was born in 1949, which would place six generations back at 1795. That creates so many problems with the Cherokee/delaware claim. ETA: 1795 is pretty close to early 1800s though, but I wanted to call specific attention to the issues around the trail of tears. i was also using a generation time from between 25-30 years. However, there is a lot of variance in that (after all, women can become mothers before they have reached the age of 20.) I do not know the ages when Warren's ancestors gave birth, but if people started having children earlier back then it would push the time frame back to the 1800s.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

15th October 2018, 08:26 AM	#294
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 11,816	Originally Posted by The Big Dog didn't she claim that she had a descendant from the Delaware or Cherokee tribes? Yeah, no. Were those claims disproven?

15th October 2018, 08:27 AM	#295
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,092	Originally Posted by casebro She still "Played the race card". To get an advantage. Citation needed.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

15th October 2018, 08:29 AM	#296
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 22,917	Originally Posted by crescent It gets better: Trump says 'who cares' after Warren takes DNA test, denies $1 million offer Lies building upon lies. Warren claimed some small amount of native ancestry, birther in chief blows it up into a big deal. Now he's got to say that this amount of ancestry does not prove she's an Indian, even though she never claimed to be, but only claimed (correctly) to have some native American ancestry. Trump lies. A lot. And no surprise that he would hide behind his own loudly proclaimed lies to welsh on a debt. She has proven the claims she really has made to be true. Trump lied about the claims she made, and uses those lies as an excuse to weasel out. And he probably can't afford to pay it anyway. He'd have to find someone else's money to do that.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

15th October 2018, 08:29 AM	#297
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 11,816	Originally Posted by casebro She still "Played the race card". To get an advantage. But the Sombrero quip makes sense too. Bustamente didn't say which Indian tribe those centi-Morgans came from. Yet he knows they ARE Indian. Aztec or even Mayan? There has been a bit of recent research looking into tribal genes, to the point that tribal identification is possible. And that might be a bit of "Ilite libralness in the scholastic system". Good thing you showed up. I was afraid poor TBD was going to throw his back out lugging those goal posts around all by himself.

15th October 2018, 08:30 AM	#298
The Big Dog Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,024	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum Donald Trump promised $1 million to charity if she did, so it does matter. You do want Donald Trump to fulfill that promise, right? He already denied it, so, to borrow a line from Animal house: "You ****** up. You trusted us." D. Bluto Blutarsky Trump
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15th October 2018, 08:31 AM	#299
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,707	Originally Posted by johnny karate Were those claims disproven? 6-10 generations make those much more unlikely. The interpretation was that it was Cherokee blood because her family was in Oklahoma and so we're the Cherokee. But at minimum 6 generations, we start having problems of Cherokee not being in Oklahoma and who know where her family was back then.

15th October 2018, 08:31 AM	#300
Slings and Arrows Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: USA Posts: 1,743	Originally Posted by quadraginta Because Native Americans from south of the border aren't Real Native Anericans™. Cherokee from south of the border? "As a kid, I never asked my mom for documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage. What kid would? But I knew my father's family didn't like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware, so my parents had to elope." -- Elizabeth Warren

15th October 2018, 08:32 AM	#301
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,672	Originally Posted by The Big Dog He already denied it, so, to borrow a line from Animal house: "You **** up. You trusted us." D. Bluto Blutarsky Trump I want to make sure I fully understand you on this: Big Dog does not care if Trump lies about donating money to charity.** Would that be an accurate portrayal of your values?

15th October 2018, 08:33 AM	#302
d4m10n Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 3,663	Originally Posted by The Big Dog didn't she claim that she had a descendant from the Delaware or Cherokee tribes? Just as a bit of a side note, one of those tribes was something like a wholly-owned subsidiary of the other one for many years, see this page for some of the relevant history. Delaware are independent of the Cherokee for now, the result of years of negotiations between the two tribes. I’ve been following this legal wrangling for years, since my wife and kids are members of the Delaware Tribe, which does not have a minimum blood quantum requirement. Originally Posted by The Big Dog No I think it is silly to claim that one has Native American history because maybe someone 6 to 10 generations ago might have been native American. Guessing you aren't from Oklahoma. The only way to become a member of some tribes round these parts is to show the tribal council you can trace your ancestry back many generations ago. For example: Originally Posted by Wikipedia Tribal membership is limited exclusively to descendants of Delaware people on the 1906 tribal rolls from Indian Territory.
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15th October 2018, 08:33 AM	#303
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,707	Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows Cherokee from south of the border? "As a kid, I never asked my mom for documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage. What kid would? But I knew my father's family didn't like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware, so my parents had to elope." -- Elizabeth Warren Which isnt a lie regardless of her ancestry.

15th October 2018, 08:37 AM	#304
crescent Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,893	Originally Posted by The Big Dog "As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope." Heredity tests come back and show she might have an insignificant amount of native Peruvian. Our Conclusion: Eight Fauxcahontas Originally Posted by BobTheCoward She further claimed specific tribal ancestry. Here's the actual report: https://mk0elizabethwarh5ore.kinstac...eport_2018.pdf Second to last page, caption for Figure 2: Quote: In this ancestry specific analysis [3]. the Native American haplotype of the test sample is displayed against a panel of Native American references from across North American. The test sample's Native American ancestry falls between the First Nations (Canada) and Indigenous Mexican peoples, as would be expected for Native American ancestry deriving from the lower 48 states of the United States. (bolding added)(the "test sample" is Warren's DNA) The report supports her family's lore. Her results do not show Peruvian ancestry, that's another lie. The Cherokee were having regular contact with Euro-Americans by the early 18th century, and with sporadic contact for a century before that. The timing still works.
crescent Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,893	Last edited by crescent; 15th October 2018 at 08:51 AM.

15th October 2018, 08:37 AM	#305
The Big Dog Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,024	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum I want to make sure I fully understand you on this: Big Dog does not care if Trump lies about donating money to charity. Would that be an accurate portrayal of your values? Not accurate "I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian." Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town.
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15th October 2018, 08:39 AM	#306
WilliamSeger Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,218	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I... don't... care. I don't understand why Elizabeth Warren thought her homeopathic level of Native Americaness was something any of us were the least bit interested in and I don't care that the Republicans think it's a hill to die defending. There is no angle to approach this discussion from that isn't stupid. For a demagogue like Trump, whether or not Warren has any native blood, there always was and still is the angle of white resentment of "special rights" for minorities. You can see from the pathetic apologia of the trumpers here that they still accept the lie that Warren took advantage of her heritage claim.
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15th October 2018, 08:42 AM	#307
The Big Dog Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,024	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger For a demagogue like Trump, whether or not Warren has any native blood, there always was and still is the angle of white resentment of "special rights" for minorities. You can see from the pathetic apologia of the trumpers here that they still accept the lie that Warren took advantage of her heritage claim. So you are saying that Harvard took advantage of her heritage claim? Hmmm. Plus, isn't putting it in a campaign ad trying to take advantage of it? Wait, there is a 1/1064 chance this is turning out well for Betsy.
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15th October 2018, 08:44 AM	#308
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,295	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward She listed herself as a minority law professor. It appears that none of the people who were involved in hiring her actually used that as a factor in hiring her. So again, no real advantage to her. https://www.apnews.com/4d83eff785f146c6a20754a61f5fa503
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15th October 2018, 08:46 AM	#309
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 11,816	Originally Posted by The Big Dog Not accurate "I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian." Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town. Oops... Quote: Bustamante also compared Warren’s DNA to white populations in Utah and Great Britain to determine if the amounts of Native American markers in Warren’s sample were significant or just background noise. Warren has 12 times more Native American blood than a white person from Great Britain and 10 times more than a white person from Utah, the report found. https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/pol...c:article:stub Another swing and a miss for The Big Dog.

15th October 2018, 08:47 AM	#310
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,672	Originally Posted by The Big Dog Not accurate "I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian." Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town. That's not what the test showed. If you want to lie to yourself, I won't stop you. Please don't lie to me.

15th October 2018, 08:48 AM	#311
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,707	Originally Posted by Segnosaur It appears that none of the people who were involved in hiring her actually used that as a factor in hiring her. So again, no real advantage to her. https://www.apnews.com/4d83eff785f146c6a20754a61f5fa503 Not relevant to me. It is about her character to me and she doesn't measure up.

15th October 2018, 08:53 AM	#312
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 10,976	Originally Posted by Drewbot There are two possibilities here: 1. You acknowledge Trumps accusation, and he still gets to counter your response. (THIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS FORGED) 2. You do not acknowledge Trumps accusation, and say that his accusation is not worthy of a response. As was shown in the movie The Contender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Contender_(2000_film) Truth just doesn't matter to you, does it? Illustrative example: Drewbot is a pedophile. Either respond (in which case I may counter with an equally baseless claim) or do not acknowledge (in which case I will repeat this scurrilous and baseless accusation far and wide). Am I alpha now? Note for the clueless: I have no reason to believe that Drewbot is a pedophile. (Trump addendum: but a lot of people are talking about it.)

15th October 2018, 08:53 AM	#313
The Big Dog Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,024	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum That's not what the test showed. If you want to lie to yourself, I won't stop you. Please don't lie to me. Well, that is what Trump said, so...
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15th October 2018, 08:54 AM	#314
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,707	Originally Posted by crescent Here's the actual report: https://mk0elizabethwarh5ore.kinstac...eport_2018.pdf Second to last page, caption for Figure 2: (bolding added)(the "test sample" is Warren's DNA) The report supports her family's lore. Her results do not show Peruvian ancestry, that's another lie. The Cherokee were having regular contact with Euro-Americans by the early 18th century, and with sporadic contact for a century before that. The timing still works. Her story seems clearly describing relations that occurred in Oklahoma. If the source of Cherokee blood is pre Oklahoma and they just so happened to end up in Oklahoma with the Cherokee, I don't think that aligns.

15th October 2018, 08:54 AM	#315
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,672	Originally Posted by The Big Dog Well, that is what Trump said, so... Is this the part where I say "rule of so?"