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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 15th October 2018, 09:08 AM   #321
Molinaro
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is a claim about the claim she made on that document. Her evidence at the time was flimsy.
Her evidence at the time was exactly the same evidence used by everyone during all of history before DNA tests became a thing.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:11 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I've been seeing responses saying things like, "Oh, but she's not actually part of the tribe" and stuff like that.

And the answer is, of course not. And she never claimed to be.

But yeah, knock down that straw man.

She's going after Trump to give the million dollars. His response is .... weird. It's one thing to say, "I wasn't serious" when your bluff gets called. Or "that's not good enough." But the whole, "I didn't say that" is just mental.

I mean, who are the supporters stupid enough to buy that?
She should just now keep going on and on about he's a welcher, when anyone asks her anything about anything just say "I'm not a welcher like Trump". So asked about the economy - "Trump welched on his bet with me", asked about healthcare "I've never welched but Trump welched on his bet with me".


Seems to be the new USA way!
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:16 AM   #323
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She provides proof she lied and Dems declare victory. Nothing unusual about that. A large dose of confirmation bias mixed in with some nebulous DNA results and we finally have "proof" that Fauxcanontas is indeed a squaw. Give me a break.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:16 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Molinaro View Post
Her evidence at the time was exactly the same evidence used by everyone during all of history before DNA tests became a thing.
And it was stupid to rely on it then, too.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:18 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
She provides proof she lied and Dems declare victory. Nothing unusual about that. A large dose of confirmation bias mixed in with some nebulous DNA results and we finally have "proof" that Fauxcanontas is indeed a squaw. Give me a break.
What was the lie?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:20 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
If the intermarriage from the family story occurred in Oklahoma, it can still work - the marriage in question might have been with someone who was themselves mixed race. Many of the Cherokee were themselves of mixed race generations before the expulsion to Oklahoma.

Remember, we are looking at the marriage of Warren's parents, nearly a century ago. The "one drop" rule was still a thing, in culture at least. So Warren's mother's family was suspected of being part native American. that could easily mean that they just knew that Warren's mother's grandmother married a Cherokee who might have had predominantly white ancestry to begin with

(I know that legally, the "one drop rule" didn't apply to Native American ancestry. But culturally, it probably still did in many circles.)

I gotta add, one of the whitest white people I've ever known (fair skin, blue eyes, white-blonde hair) had an ancestor on the Dawes role and was an active member of the Cherokee tribe. You can't miss those strong twangy Okie accents. You don't need to look even remotely Native American to actually be Native American, in the sense of having shared ancestry and culture.
And there is no reason to think that any of this has to do with "how much Native American blood" she had. No one was basing it on the "one drop" rule. They were basing it a) the fact it happened (someone's ancestor somewhere was a Native American" and b) bigotry.

Family stories work that way. Here's one from my family, that I have known most of my life

I had some grandparent who "went west, and was never heard from again." This was the family story. My grandmother knew it very well. My dad used to give her a hard time because Dad said he probably hooked up with some Indian squaw. My very religious (and bigoted grandma) was very, very offended by it, but Dad teased her about it all the time. The family's belief is that "the Indians got him."

Well, in recent years, I have done the digging into the family tree, and figured out who it is. The person in question appears to have been my Grandmother's great-grandfather.

So what's the point? If I told people that I have an ancestor who was killed by Indians, does it matter that it's 5 generations back? That's my family story. And just 1 - 2 generations ago, it was sufficiently scandalous to suggest that the guy hooked up with an Indian squaw. Despite the fact that none of those people actually knew him, the family lore is enough.

It's not about how much Native American blood anyone had. It's that someone had an Indian ancestor, and that was all that mattered for the bigots on the other side.

It's not complicated.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:20 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Her story seems clearly describing relations that occurred in Oklahoma. If the source of Cherokee blood is pre Oklahoma and they just so happened to end up in Oklahoma with the Cherokee, I don't think that aligns.
What evidence is there that she ever used her Native American ancestry cynically to benefit from affirmative action or other similar schemes? Seems to me it's just a piece of family trivia that's been passed down the generations. An amusing anecdote about ancestors running off to have a taboo marriage, nothing more. It's like people bragging about how they can trace their family back to a small town in Ireland, or the Mayflower, or some president. It's largely pointless anecdotes that people rarely care about enough to verify beyond "that's what grandad said".

I don't see any character flaw in that.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:22 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I've been seeing responses saying things like, "Oh, but she's not actually part of the tribe" and stuff like that.

And the answer is, of course not. And she never claimed to be.

But yeah, knock down that straw man.

She's going after Trump to give the million dollars. His response is .... weird. It's one thing to say, "I wasn't serious" when your bluff gets called. Or "that's not good enough." But the whole, "I didn't say that" is just mental.

I mean, who are the supporters stupid enough to buy that?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:23 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What evidence is there that she ever used her Native American ancestry cynically to benefit from affirmative action or other similar schemes? Seems to me it's just a piece of family trivia that's been passed down the generations. An amusing anecdote about ancestors running off have taboo marriage, nothing more. It's like people bragging about how they can trace their family back to a small town in Ireland, or the Mayflower, or some president. It's largely pointless anecdotes that people rarely care about enough to verify beyond "that's what grandad said".

I don't see any character flaw in that.
I see a huge character flaw.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:23 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I see a huge character flaw.
Care to explain?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:24 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What was the lie?
The lie is that she is of Native American heritage - Cherokee, I believe. One study showed that everyone in the world can trace their DNA back to four black women who left Africa a long, long time ago. But, that doesn't mean we can all claim we are Africans. Wait, according to Fauxcahontas maybe that's exactly what it means. She's black, too!
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:25 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
She provides proof she lied and Dems declare victory. Nothing unusual about that. A large dose of confirmation bias mixed in with some nebulous DNA results and we finally have "proof" that Fauxcanontas is indeed a squaw. Give me a break.
The only lie that it proved was Trump's. He promised he would donate a million dollars to charity if she took a DNA test and now he's denying he said that.

It sort of like Trump saying he'll release his taxes if nominated or Ithat he didn't pay off Stormy Daniels, he didn't fire Mueller because of Russia, the check is in the mail and drain the swamp.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:25 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
She provides proof she lied and Dems declare victory. Nothing unusual about that. A large dose of confirmation bias mixed in with some nebulous DNA results and we finally have "proof" that Fauxcanontas is indeed a squaw. Give me a break.
Care to expand on that?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:26 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
She provides proof she lied and Dems declare victory. Nothing unusual about that. A large dose of confirmation bias mixed in with some nebulous DNA results and we finally have "proof" that Fauxcanontas is indeed a squaw. Give me a break.
Careful. You might injure your back doing the logical contortions necessary to put that spin on it.

Last edited by CORed; 15th October 2018 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:26 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, that is what Trump said, so...
By the way, here's the video of Trump saying the thing that he says he didn't say.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...05214028775426

1:55, very end of the clip.

Now that we have established that Trump is thoroughly dishonest about this, can we agree that Trump has a moral obligation to fulfill his promise and donate $1 million to charity?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:28 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The lie is that she is of Native American heritage - Cherokee, I believe. One study showed that everyone in the world can trace their DNA back to four black women who left Africa a long, long time ago. But, that doesn't mean we can all claim we are Africans. Wait, according to Fauxcahontas maybe that's exactly what it means. She's black, too!
A) it is only a lie if she didn't believe those stories. Claiming something you think is true even if it isn't actually true is not a lie.

B) yes we can all claim it.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:30 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Care to explain?
I don't think it is moral to share amusing family anecdotes without data.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:31 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think it is moral to share amusing family anecdotes without data.
I've been Bob'd. Do i get a certificate or something?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:33 AM   #339
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Say... what is the margin of error on these tests anyway?

First of all you have the DNA test

Then comparing those results to cultural groups....

Hmmm, I am sure betsy's expert addressed it but I can't find it?

What did her sciectician say about the margin of error?

Certainly it is larger than 1/1024, right?

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Old 15th October 2018, 09:35 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Careful. You might injure your back doing the logical contortions necessary to put that spin on it.
I'm an uneducated rube, so it's really not my fault.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:36 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yeah, Keith, I get it, but come on. Even our resident supporters don't go with "he didn't say it." They are perfectly fine with "He didn't really mean it" but that's very different from "He didn't say it."
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:39 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I'm an uneducated rube, so it's really not my fault.
I'm glad you said it. Saves others from pointing that out.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:40 AM   #343
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Original claim:
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Her test showed that she might be the whitest whitey in whitey town.

New claim:
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"So Elizabeth Warren is *possibly* 1/1024 (0.09%) Native American. Scientists say the average European-American is 0.18% Native American."

The truth:
Quote:
Bustamante also compared Warren’s DNA to white populations in Utah and Great Britain to determine if the amounts of Native American markers in Warren’s sample were significant or just background noise.

Warren has 12 times more Native American blood than a white person from Great Britain and 10 times more than a white person from Utah, the report found.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:42 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm glad you said it. Saves others from pointing that out.
Here's Fauxcahontas talking about her Cherokee and Delaware heritage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLI3...ature=youtu.be
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:42 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say... what is the margin of error on these tests anyway?

First of all you have the DNA test

Then comparing those results to cultural groups....

Hmmm, I am sure betsy's expert addressed it but I can't find it?

What did her sciectician say about the margin of error?

Certainly it is larger than 1/1024, right?
President Trump challenged her to take the DNA test, challenging her claim that she had Native American ancestry per her claim. That he tried to move the goalposts to 'prove she is an Indian', which she never claimed, is more dishonesty, but expected).

She did so, and proved there was a pure-blood Native American as little as 6 generations back, with 99% accuracy. That her mother may have had details off does not substantially refute Warren's claim.

Trump punked out on his word.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:45 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Here's Fauxcahontas talking about her Cherokee and Delaware heritage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLI3...ature=youtu.be
When were those claims disproven?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:45 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
President Trump challenged her to take the DNA test, challenging her claim that she had Native American ancestry per her claim. That he tried to move the goalposts to 'prove she is an Indian', which she never claimed, is more dishonesty, but expected).

She did so, and proved there was a pure-blood Native American as little as 6 generations back, with 99% accuracy. That her mother may have had details off does not substantially refute Warren's claim.

Trump punked out on his word.
That's 'weird' you did not actually address my post... hmmm.

Betsy's expert consulted for 23 and me. 23 and me says:

"The results have a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percent and a confidence level of 95 percent."

Uh oh, I am pretty sure that her claim falls well within the margin of error.

We are talking Science, so CERTAINLY our hero told us what the margin of error was, right?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:46 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say... what is the margin of error on these tests anyway?

First of all you have the DNA test

Then comparing those results to cultural groups....

Hmmm, I am sure betsy's expert addressed it but I can't find it?

What did her sciectician say about the margin of error?

Certainly it is larger than 1/1024, right?
What a sad and ignorant misunderstanding of how “margin of error” works.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:46 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
She should just now keep going on and on about he's a welcher, when anyone asks her anything about anything just say "I'm not a welcher like Trump". So asked about the economy - "Trump welched on his bet with me", asked about healthcare "I've never welched but Trump welched on his bet with me".

If you're going to use racial slurs, please hide them with a trigger warning or something.






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Old 15th October 2018, 09:46 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
For a demagogue like Trump, whether or not Warren has any native blood, there always was and still is the angle of white resentment of "special rights" for minorities. You can see from the pathetic apologia of the trumpers here that they still accept the lie that Warren took advantage of her heritage claim.
So you are saying that Harvard took advantage of her heritage claim? Hmmm.

Plus, isn't putting it in a campaign ad trying to take advantage of it?

Wait, there is a 1/1064 chance this is turning out well for Betsy.


No, I clearly said that your resentment that someone, somehow "took advantage of her (minority) heritage claims" is low hanging fruit for a lying demagogue like Trump, and you only prove the point by transferring the resentment to Harvard.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:47 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That's 'weird' you did not actually address my post... hmmm.

Betsy's expert consulted for 23 and me. 23 and me says:

"The results have a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percent and a confidence level of 95 percent."

Uh oh, I am pretty sure that her claim falls well within the margin of error.

We are talking Science, so CERTAINLY our hero told us what the margin of error was, right?
Margin of error of what?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:48 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What a sad and ignorant misunderstanding of how “margin of error” works.
would you say it works like this?

"The results have a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percent and a confidence level of 95 percent."

-23 and me

Did her 'expert" say what margin he was using, or is The Big Dog the only one doing "Science" here?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:51 AM   #353
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Genetic ancestry testing is an inexact science, task force says

Bit dated, but good for a laugh.
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:51 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What a sad and ignorant misunderstanding of how “margin of error” works.
With a percentage of 0.09% native blood, and margin of error at +/- 3.1% ... she might be negative 3.01% Native American. Or as high as 3.19%. That's how it works, right?



ETA:
I'm pretty sure that a 3.1% confidence interval around 0.09% would be:

.08721 < .09 < .09279




ETA - spoiler tags might not be working:

I'm pretty sure that a 3.1% confidence interval around 0.09% would be:

.08721 < .0900 < .09279

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Old 15th October 2018, 09:53 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
would you say it works like this?

"The results have a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percent and a confidence level of 95 percent."

-23 and me

Did her 'expert" say what margin he was using, or is The big Dog the only one doing "Science" here?
Did she use the 23 and Me testing protocols?

Also, the percentage of her Native American heritage is a function of how many genes she has that can be traced to Native Americans compared to those that cannot.

How do you imagine “margin of error” would impact that percentage? Do you think these are polling results we’re talking about?
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Old 15th October 2018, 09:55 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
With a percentage of 0.09% native blood, and margin of error at +/- 3.1% ... she might be negative 3.01% Native American. Or as high as 3.19%. That's how it works, right?
Actually it suggests that results less than 3.1% are not definitive.

It is cool, CERTAINLY our Hero Expert explained the margin of error and how it applied here, right?

Right?

Anyone?
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Old 15th October 2018, 10:02 AM   #357
Squeegee Beckenheim
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"Ha! What an idiot! She should just take the test! The fact that she's not taken a test just proves that she's lying!"

*Warren takes the test*

"Ha! What an idiot! She should never have taken the test!"
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Old 15th October 2018, 10:03 AM   #358
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I've been Bob'd. Do i get a certificate or something?
This thread is about her character in regards to this matter. I don't think she passes the character test.
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Old 15th October 2018, 10:04 AM   #359
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
"Ha! What an idiot! She should just take the test! The fact that she's not taken a test just proves that she's lying!"

*Warren takes the test*

"Ha! What an idiot! She should never have taken the test!"
Oddly enough, those are not contradictory.
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Old 15th October 2018, 10:06 AM   #360
CORed
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I... don't... care. I don't understand why Elizabeth Warren thought her homeopathic level of Native Americaness was something any of us were the least bit interested in and I don't care that the Republicans think it's a hill to die defending.

There is no angle to approach this discussion from that isn't stupid.
I agree that the whole thing is stupid. However, whether it was the best tactic or not, I am finding a great deal of humor in watching the gold post moving and spin doctoring that Trump supporters doing now to spin the apparent scientific confirmation of Warren's family anecdotes as somehow proving that she actually lied, as well as doubling down on the lie that Warren somehow got an unfair benefit from a claim Native American ancestry.

It reminds me of the rapid change among birthers from, "If Obama would just provide the long form birth certificate, it would remove all doubt" to claims that something or other in the pdf from the scan of said document somehow proved it was fake. The hardcore Trump supporters and Republican base are so far beyond the reach of evidence and logic, that of course nothing can reach them, but for people who still have some capacity for rational thought, the reaction to being shown to be wrong goes a long way to illustrate just how far beyond the capability of rational thought they have gone.
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