[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks... - Page 8

BobTheCoward · 25th November 2018, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

The latest YouGov poll I've seen says half of Leave voters think No Deal would be good for Britain and a quarter think it would be bad. As you may imagine, the vast majority of Remain voters think No Deal would be bad.

Which means a majority of UK people oppose hard brexit. Seems May actually accomplished a good deal based on that.

Information Analyst · 26th November 2018, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

There is a lot of speculation about what the remainers who voted want. Does the UK not have polls to resolve this speculation?

Remainers voted for the status quo, so suggesting there is speculation over what they want/ed is pretty weird. It's the Leavers who seem to want every variation of "leaving" - even mutually contradictory ones - who are the problem.

ponderingturtle · 26th November 2018, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

After Brexit the UK will run out of Mars bars within two weeks. And much more:
According to a person who has been briefed on DEFRA’s internal discussions on no deal, officials are forecasting that the disruption to food imports and exports could last for more than six months, leading to shortages on supermarket shelves and putting enormous financial pressure on businesses that depend on exports to the EU.

Hmm will the ration books be blue? That will be what the people wanted surely.

Tolls · 26th November 2018, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Hmm will the ration books be blue? That will be what the people wanted surely.

Yes, but they'll be printed in France.

ponderingturtle · 26th November 2018, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

To quote one of May's own tautisms, 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'.

Of course, you can carrying on negotiating until you are happy.

Or are you one of these people who rationalises, 'Oh dear the wing mirror is hanging off and the tail lights don't work. The brakes are faulty, but I can discuss that with the smarmy car salesman another day. I'll take it. After all the poor salesman is getting a bit tired of my constantly asking for a car that meets my clear specifications. After all, his satisfaction is of more importance and priority than mine. OOOPS! The engine has just fallen out. Never mind <shrug> this is the only possible deal. I'll just have to take it and tough titties if the bumpers look a bit bent.'

Thinks to self: now I am going to have to sell my decision to the wife. Let me see. What about. 'Darling it is in the interest of our household. We ccannot go back to the car dealership and ask for a better deal. It's either the old banger I've just bought for £21K or nothing. Is that what you want? Arguments and divisions int he family about whose turn it is to use the bike?'

Well it is this or you lose your job because you can't get to work. Makes it kind of an easy sell. Pity you got rid of your old car before you even decided what kind of new car to get.

ponderingturtle · 26th November 2018, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

She has thrown Northern Ireland and Gibraltar to the dogs whilst mouthing lies about doing things in the 'national interest'.

Nonsense the voters did that. Brexit means brexit and they never cared at all about those foreign places.

ponderingturtle · 26th November 2018, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

So I don't understand how can Brexiteers imagine there doesn't need to be a border?

See it was all about taking back your borders but of course not any of the land borders.

ponderingturtle · 26th November 2018, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by Tolls

Yes, but they'll be printed in France.

That's fine, this is all about symbols and such not jobs after all.

P.J. Denyer · 26th November 2018, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

See it was all about taking back your borders but of course not any of the land borders.

I used to live in West Drayton, I never realised at the time that I was scant miles from the UK's only border. [Things Brexit taught us]

Dave Rogers · 26th November 2018, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Pity you got rid of your old car before you even decided what kind of new car to get.

To be fair, we haven't actually got rid of it yet, we've just decided that the will of the household is to scrap it because that's what we decided two years ago before we'd looked at buying a new one and it's inconceivable that we could allow ourselves to change our mind until after the old car's gone to the crusher.

Dave

Ian Osborne · 26th November 2018, 04:48 AM

Brexit deal 'will cost UK £100bn' by 2030

BobTheCoward · 26th November 2018, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Information Analyst

Remainers voted for the status quo, so suggesting there is speculation over what they want/ed is pretty weird. It's the Leavers who seem to want every variation of "leaving" - even mutually contradictory ones - who are the problem.

I listed the wrong group in a rush.

Dave Rogers · 26th November 2018, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I listed the wrong group in a rush.

To be fair, one prominent Brexiteer in this thread did make the claim a while back that it wasn't exactly clear what Remain wanted. Frankly it didn't seem much less coherent than anything else coming from the Brexit camp.

Dave

Archie Gemmill Goal · 26th November 2018, 06:57 AM

Can anyone explain why TM is bothering to try to convince the people she has made a good deal when the people don't have any say on it anyway? It's mostly her own MPs she has to convince at this stage.

Tolls · 26th November 2018, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Brexit deal 'will cost UK £100bn' by 2030

Bloody experts!
Who needs 'em?

Strawberry · 26th November 2018, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Can anyone explain why TM is bothering to try to convince the people she has made a good deal when the people don't have any say on it anyway? It's mostly her own MPs she has to convince at this stage.

I think she's hoping that people will put pressure on their MPs to vote for it.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 26th November 2018, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Strawberry

I think she's hoping that people will put pressure on their MPs to vote for it.

Interesting concept... MPs listening to their constituents.

Strawberry · 26th November 2018, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Interesting concept... MPs listening to their constituents.

I know. She obviously feels its worth a try though.

catsmate · 26th November 2018, 08:06 AM

In further good news for the Brexiteer sheeple, HMRC has stated that its preparations for a Northern Ireland backstop could take up to 30 months, after the government had decided how the mechanism will work. While the Brexit transition period ends in two years.

The two permanent secretaries at the Treasury, James Harra and Jon Thompson, were speaking to the Treasury Committee this week, in what Thompson said was his thirteenth Brexit-related select committee appearance. He stated that creating the systems required for the Northern Ireland backstop could take more than two years, but also said this was based on a series of assumptions.
"It is really difficult to answer that question," he said when asked if a backstop would be ready by December 2020, which is when the transition period is currently scheduled to end.

He said that his department needed further clarity "on what exactly is required in order for us to be able to work out what IT systems we would need to build" and also on what EU IT systems and databases it would still have access to.
After the Treasury has these two sets of information, it can start to specify the operations required and build IT systems to do it (or contract that out, at significant cost). At this point "we would need businesses that are transacting towards Northern Ireland to adapt or amend their own systems".
"In broad terms, if we were to make a number of assumptions, we think it could be up to 30 months to do that work," he said.
But the clock won't start ticking until the governments reach an agreement.
PDF of the report.
Draft declaration.

ETA: I should also point out that most IT experts think 30 months is grossly insufficient, especially those who remember childcare payment system fiasco of 2014 to date.

lomiller · 26th November 2018, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Er, the deal she has hammered out puts the UK in a worse position than it is already in.

Of course it did. Leaving the EU is a net negative, any deal to leave was always going to be worse than staying in the EU.

Originally Posted by Vixen

It's like asking for a pay rise and accepting a pay cut.

It’s more like taking a new lower paying job, then being surprised you end up taking a pay cut because your old employer won’t pay you after you stop working there.

Darat · 26th November 2018, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Of course it did. Leaving the EU is a net negative, any deal to leave was always going to be worse than staying in the EU.

It’s more like taking a new lower paying job, then being surprised you end up taking a pay cut because your old employer won’t pay you after you stop working there.

Nonsense. The EU could have agreed to give us all the benefits of being in the EU, less us not paying anything and not having to follow any regulations and not allowing EU citizens right of residency or work, but allowing UK citizens the right to live and work in the EU. They've just cut their nose of to spite their face!

Darat · 26th November 2018, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

In further good news for the Brexiteer sheeple, HMRC has stated that its preparations for a Northern Ireland backstop could take up to 30 months, after the government had decided how the mechanism will work. While the Brexit transition period ends in two years.

The two permanent secretaries at the Treasury, James Harra and Jon Thompson, were speaking to the Treasury Committee this week, in what Thompson said was his thirteenth Brexit-related select committee appearance. He stated that creating the systems required for the Northern Ireland backstop could take more than two years, but also said this was based on a series of assumptions.
"It is really difficult to answer that question," he said when asked if a backstop would be ready by December 2020, which is when the transition period is currently scheduled to end.

He said that his department needed further clarity "on what exactly is required in order for us to be able to work out what IT systems we would need to build" and also on what EU IT systems and databases it would still have access to.
After the Treasury has these two sets of information, it can start to specify the operations required and build IT systems to do it (or contract that out, at significant cost). At this point "we would need businesses that are transacting towards Northern Ireland to adapt or amend their own systems".
"In broad terms, if we were to make a number of assumptions, we think it could be up to 30 months to do that work," he said.
But the clock won't start ticking until the governments reach an agreement.
PDF of the report.
Draft declaration.

ETA: I should also point out that most IT experts think 30 months is grossly insufficient, especially those who remember childcare payment system fiasco of 2014 to date.

Nah silly assumptions. Don't they know they just have to close their eyes and wish really strongly and a working system will appear? Have they not listened to the leavers at all.

jimbob · 26th November 2018, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Interesting concept... MPs listening to their constituents.

It's a novel experience for me, but my (new) MP has been holding consultations on Brexit - and in general seems to be pretty responsive.

Garrison · 26th November 2018, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

The latest YouGov poll I've seen says half of Leave voters think No Deal would be good for Britain and a quarter think it would be bad. As you may imagine, the vast majority of Remain voters think No Deal would be bad.

Well those who think No Deal would a good idea are the ones who still listen to the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, and they are as much a lost cause as the hardcore Trumpistas.

RolandRat · 26th November 2018, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Garrison

Well those who think No Deal would a good idea are the ones who still listen to the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, and they are as much a lost cause as the hardcore Trumpistas.

AKA Daily Mail readers.

toto · 27th November 2018, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

That is not true for May. She is a lousy negotiator. Negotiation is an art. The guys at ACAS have arbitrators with arbitration diplomas. It is knowing how to drive a hard bargain between, say, a rail union with striking members holding out for specific conditions against the bosses on behalf of the government 'refusing to budge'.

A good negotiator will hammer out a deal that is win-win for both sides.

May has no negotiating skill at all. She has sold the UK down the river (thank goodness for Gina Miller forcing her to have it approved by parliament first). She has brought about a 'lose-win' deal in the EU's favour. Of course they have approved it. What's not to approve? She has conceded at every possible juncture. She has made the fatal mistake of wanting to be liked. She has shown herself to be acquiescent and amenable when toughness and vision was needed. To try to cover up her deficient negotiations - if we can even call it that; 'surrender' is a better word - she makes matters worse by using dog-whistle racism in her appeal to the British public ('no more queue-jumping by EU nationals') and blatant lies.

Someone needs to give her Sun Tzu, The Art of War for Christmas. She sees herself as a latter day 'Iron Lady' Thatcher, when in reality May is a pushover five-quid slut in curlers who'll say, 'OK, I'll do it for a quid'.

As you said in 4/5/18, in your circles it is normal to jokingly call a friend 'you slut' for still being in a dressing gown and slippers. Is this what you mean here?

Information Analyst · 27th November 2018, 05:40 AM

Euronews: I'm being 'thrown out' of the European Parliament, says Sinn Fein MEP

"Sinn Fein MEP Martina Anderson told Euronews she would be “thrown out” of the European Parliament in March 2019 because of Brexit.

Anderson and her party called for a Remain vote in the referendum, alongside 56% of the population of Northern Ireland.

Now she says the withdrawal agreement “should pass” in Westminster in December, when UK MPs vote on the entire Brexit deal so far.

“It’s a stepping stone in that there is a special status for Northern Ireland,” she said, but citizens are about to lose their representation as soon as Brexit happens next year."

<Elfo>At least SF voters still have their representation at Westmi... oooh...</Elfo>

3point14 · 27th November 2018, 05:43 AM

Leave cheated and is subject to a criminal investigation.

Apparently, nobody cares.

I find this extremely frustrating to the point of being really quite angry about it.

uke2se · 27th November 2018, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Leave cheated and is subject to a criminal investigation.

Apparently, nobody cares.

I find this extremely frustrating to the point of being really quite angry about it.

I fear it's much, much worse than that they cheated. Continuous reporting and investigations have made it clearer and clearer why they cheated and who helped them.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 27th November 2018, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Apparently, nobody cares.

Nobody cares and even if they did they wouldn't be able to do anything about it anyway. Which is why it happens in the first place.

BobTheCoward · 27th November 2018, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Leave cheated and is subject to a criminal investigation.

Apparently, nobody cares.

I find this extremely frustrating to the point of being really quite angry about it.

If the overspend affected the results, than it is an admission by the remainers that their ideas are so crappy they can't win under that condition.

Here is an idea...have a policy proposal so good it doesn't matter how much is spent.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 27th November 2018, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

If the overspend affected the results, than it is an admission by the remainers that their ideas are so crappy they can't win under that condition.

Here is an idea...have a policy proposal so good it doesn't matter how much is spent.

Brilliant logic. If one side cheats its an admission that the other side are losers. Does that work in sport too?

BobTheCoward · 27th November 2018, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Brilliant logic. If one side cheats its an admission that the other side are losers. Does that work in sport too?

Yes. If you are not good enough to win against cheating then you are not good enough. Get better.

3point14 · 27th November 2018, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by uke2se

I fear it's much, much worse than that they cheated. Continuous reporting and investigations have made it clearer and clearer why they cheated and who helped them.

I'd really like some very high profile prosecutions.

I can't see that happening. Something is very, very rotten at no. 10

Earthborn · 27th November 2018, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

If the overspend affected the results, than it is an admission by the remainers that their ideas are so crappy they can't win under that condition.

It is certainly an admission that the Remain campaign was not very good. Even the remainers were not very enthusiastic about the EU and nobody made a clear case for why it is a good idea to not shred nearly all international agreements and then trying to negotiate new ones. The remainers did not even bother to explain what the EU is and what it does.

3point14 · 27th November 2018, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Earthborn

It is certainly an admission that the Remain campaign was not very good. Even the remainers were not very enthusiastic about the EU and nobody made a clear case for why it is a good idea to not shred nearly all international agreements and then trying to negotiate new ones. The remainers did not even bother to explain what the EU is and what it does.

I'm still not convinced the leavers wanted to win.

Boris did not seem like a happy man when he received the news.

Jack by the hedge · 27th November 2018, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Which means a majority of UK people oppose hard brexit. Seems May actually accomplished a good deal based on that.

Yeah, about 3/4 don't want no-deal, though it's not clear that May's deal is any more popular than that.

The same poll said Leave was now 5% behind Remain, which suggests No-Brexit would certainly* win any 3-way referendum against May's Deal or No Deal, and has a good chance of winning outright.

If No Brexit is what most voters actually want now, their problem is finding a way of getting to vote on it.

*Of course we have to remember that Leave probably never was what the majority wanted, but fewer young voters bothered to turn out and vote. I don't exclude the possibility of their doing it again because people are just people, i.e. stupid.

Ian Osborne · 27th November 2018, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I'm still not convinced the leavers wanted to win.

Boris did not seem like a happy man when he received the news.

Quite. It was all about his attempt to be Prime Minister.

All the times Boris Johnson called for Britain to stay in the single market

Vixen · 27th November 2018, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by toto

As you said in 4/5/18, in your circles it is normal to jokingly call a friend 'you slut' for still being in a dressing gown and slippers. Is this what you mean here?

In this case, the metaphor is as to a cheap prostitute, being a traitor betraying their country for an inducement or in May's case, because she wants to be (a) liked and (b) cannot countenance not sneaking HER deal in. If you recall, she didn't want a Parliamentary vote and now she is withholding the legal advice, breaching protocol.

Yes, slut means a slovenly woman. In this case, I specifically stated 'a five-quid slut' making clear it was one step beyond slovenliness.

Vixen · 27th November 2018, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

It does. If you are not good enough to beat a doper, then get better. People win and lose all the time in sports. We should strive for exceptionalism.

So by that analogy, the cheating Russian athletes should not have been excluded from the Olympics. So it is all right for colluding Russians to tamper with other countries' elections and referendums?

26th November 2018, 02:33 AM	#282
Information Analyst Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 8,822	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward There is a lot of speculation about what the remainers who voted want. Does the UK not have polls to resolve this speculation? Remainers voted for the status quo, so suggesting there is speculation over what they want/ed is pretty weird. It's the Leavers who seem to want every variation of "leaving" - even mutually contradictory ones - who are the problem.
	Last edited by Information Analyst; 26th November 2018 at 02:35 AM.

26th November 2018, 04:22 AM	#283
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 45,170	Originally Posted by catsmate After Brexit the UK will run out of Mars bars within two weeks. And much more: According to a person who has been briefed on DEFRA’s internal discussions on no deal, officials are forecasting that the disruption to food imports and exports could last for more than six months, leading to shortages on supermarket shelves and putting enormous financial pressure on businesses that depend on exports to the EU. Hmm will the ration books be blue? That will be what the people wanted surely.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th November 2018, 04:27 AM	#284
Tolls Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,384	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Hmm will the ration books be blue? That will be what the people wanted surely. Yes, but they'll be printed in France.
Tolls Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,384

26th November 2018, 04:28 AM	#285
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 45,170	Originally Posted by Vixen To quote one of May's own tautisms, 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'. Of course, you can carrying on negotiating until you are happy. Or are you one of these people who rationalises, 'Oh dear the wing mirror is hanging off and the tail lights don't work. The brakes are faulty, but I can discuss that with the smarmy car salesman another day. I'll take it. After all the poor salesman is getting a bit tired of my constantly asking for a car that meets my clear specifications. After all, his satisfaction is of more importance and priority than mine. OOOPS! The engine has just fallen out. Never mind <shrug> this is the only possible deal. I'll just have to take it and tough titties if the bumpers look a bit bent.' Thinks to self: now I am going to have to sell my decision to the wife. Let me see. What about. 'Darling it is in the interest of our household. We ccannot go back to the car dealership and ask for a better deal. It's either the old banger I've just bought for £21K or nothing. Is that what you want? Arguments and divisions int he family about whose turn it is to use the bike?' Well it is this or you lose your job because you can't get to work. Makes it kind of an easy sell. Pity you got rid of your old car before you even decided what kind of new car to get.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th November 2018, 04:29 AM	#286
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 45,170	Originally Posted by Vixen She has thrown Northern Ireland and Gibraltar to the dogs whilst mouthing lies about doing things in the 'national interest'. Nonsense the voters did that. Brexit means brexit and they never cared at all about those foreign places.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

25th November 2018, 05:32 PM	#281
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,711	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge The latest YouGov poll I've seen says half of Leave voters think No Deal would be good for Britain and a quarter think it would be bad. As you may imagine, the vast majority of Remain voters think No Deal would be bad. Which means a majority of UK people oppose hard brexit. Seems May actually accomplished a good deal based on that.

26th November 2018, 04:31 AM	#287
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 45,170	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus So I don't understand how can Brexiteers imagine there doesn't need to be a border? See it was all about taking back your borders but of course not any of the land borders.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th November 2018, 04:33 AM	#288
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 45,170	Originally Posted by Tolls Yes, but they'll be printed in France. That's fine, this is all about symbols and such not jobs after all.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th November 2018, 04:35 AM	#289
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,095	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle See it was all about taking back your borders but of course not any of the land borders. I used to live in West Drayton, I never realised at the time that I was scant miles from the UK's only border. [Things Brexit taught us]
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,095	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

26th November 2018, 04:37 AM	#290
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 28,497	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Pity you got rid of your old car before you even decided what kind of new car to get. To be fair, we haven't actually got rid of it yet, we've just decided that the will of the household is to scrap it because that's what we decided two years ago before we'd looked at buying a new one and it's inconceivable that we could allow ourselves to change our mind until after the old car's gone to the crusher. Dave
	__________________ Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right

26th November 2018, 04:48 AM	#291
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,815	Brexit deal 'will cost UK £100bn' by 2030
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

26th November 2018, 05:26 AM	#292
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,711	Originally Posted by Information Analyst Remainers voted for the status quo, so suggesting there is speculation over what they want/ed is pretty weird. It's the Leavers who seem to want every variation of "leaving" - even mutually contradictory ones - who are the problem. I listed the wrong group in a rush.

26th November 2018, 05:28 AM	#293
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 28,497	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward I listed the wrong group in a rush. To be fair, one prominent Brexiteer in this thread did make the claim a while back that it wasn't exactly clear what Remain wanted. Frankly it didn't seem much less coherent than anything else coming from the Brexit camp. Dave
	__________________ Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right

26th November 2018, 06:57 AM	#294
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,345	Can anyone explain why TM is bothering to try to convince the people she has made a good deal when the people don't have any say on it anyway? It's mostly her own MPs she has to convince at this stage.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

26th November 2018, 07:03 AM	#295
Tolls Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,384	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne Brexit deal 'will cost UK £100bn' by 2030 Bloody experts! Who needs 'em?
Tolls Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,384

26th November 2018, 07:03 AM	#296
Strawberry Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,980	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Can anyone explain why TM is bothering to try to convince the people she has made a good deal when the people don't have any say on it anyway? It's mostly her own MPs she has to convince at this stage. I think she's hoping that people will put pressure on their MPs to vote for it.

26th November 2018, 07:31 AM	#297
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,345	Originally Posted by Strawberry I think she's hoping that people will put pressure on their MPs to vote for it. Interesting concept... MPs listening to their constituents.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

26th November 2018, 07:49 AM	#298
Strawberry Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,980	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Interesting concept... MPs listening to their constituents. I know. She obviously feels its worth a try though.

26th November 2018, 08:06 AM	#299
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 19,886	In further good news for the Brexiteer sheeple, HMRC has stated that its preparations for a Northern Ireland backstop could take up to 30 months, after the government had decided how the mechanism will work. While the Brexit transition period ends in two years. The two permanent secretaries at the Treasury, James Harra and Jon Thompson, were speaking to the Treasury Committee this week, in what Thompson said was his thirteenth Brexit-related select committee appearance. He stated that creating the systems required for the Northern Ireland backstop could take more than two years, but also said this was based on a series of assumptions. "It is really difficult to answer that question," he said when asked if a backstop would be ready by December 2020, which is when the transition period is currently scheduled to end. He said that his department needed further clarity "on what exactly is required in order for us to be able to work out what IT systems we would need to build" and also on what EU IT systems and databases it would still have access to. After the Treasury has these two sets of information, it can start to specify the operations required and build IT systems to do it (or contract that out, at significant cost). At this point "we would need businesses that are transacting towards Northern Ireland to adapt or amend their own systems". "In broad terms, if we were to make a number of assumptions, we think it could be up to 30 months to do that work," he said. But the clock won't start ticking until the governments reach an agreement. PDF of the report. Draft declaration. ETA: I should also point out that most IT experts think 30 months is grossly insufficient, especially those who remember childcare payment system fiasco of 2014 to date.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. Last edited by catsmate; 26th November 2018 at 08:08 AM.

26th November 2018, 08:48 AM	#300
lomiller Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 9,529	Originally Posted by Vixen Er, the deal she has hammered out puts the UK in a worse position than it is already in. Of course it did. Leaving the EU is a net negative, any deal to leave was always going to be worse than staying in the EU. Originally Posted by Vixen It's like asking for a pay rise and accepting a pay cut. It’s more like taking a new lower paying job, then being surprised you end up taking a pay cut because your old employer won’t pay you after you stop working there.
lomiller Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 9,529	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

26th November 2018, 11:16 AM	#301
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 84,770	Originally Posted by lomiller Of course it did. Leaving the EU is a net negative, any deal to leave was always going to be worse than staying in the EU. It’s more like taking a new lower paying job, then being surprised you end up taking a pay cut because your old employer won’t pay you after you stop working there. Nonsense. The EU could have agreed to give us all the benefits of being in the EU, less us not paying anything and not having to follow any regulations and not allowing EU citizens right of residency or work, but allowing UK citizens the right to live and work in the EU. They've just cut their nose of to spite their face!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

26th November 2018, 11:18 AM	#302
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 84,770	Originally Posted by catsmate In further good news for the Brexiteer sheeple, HMRC has stated that its preparations for a Northern Ireland backstop could take up to 30 months, after the government had decided how the mechanism will work. While the Brexit transition period ends in two years. The two permanent secretaries at the Treasury, James Harra and Jon Thompson, were speaking to the Treasury Committee this week, in what Thompson said was his thirteenth Brexit-related select committee appearance. He stated that creating the systems required for the Northern Ireland backstop could take more than two years, but also said this was based on a series of assumptions. "It is really difficult to answer that question," he said when asked if a backstop would be ready by December 2020, which is when the transition period is currently scheduled to end. He said that his department needed further clarity "on what exactly is required in order for us to be able to work out what IT systems we would need to build" and also on what EU IT systems and databases it would still have access to. After the Treasury has these two sets of information, it can start to specify the operations required and build IT systems to do it (or contract that out, at significant cost). At this point "we would need businesses that are transacting towards Northern Ireland to adapt or amend their own systems". "In broad terms, if we were to make a number of assumptions, we think it could be up to 30 months to do that work," he said. But the clock won't start ticking until the governments reach an agreement. PDF of the report. Draft declaration. ETA: I should also point out that most IT experts think 30 months is grossly insufficient, especially those who remember childcare payment system fiasco of 2014 to date. Nah silly assumptions. Don't they know they just have to close their eyes and wish really strongly and a working system will appear? Have they not listened to the leavers at all.
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26th November 2018, 01:24 PM	#303
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 20,024	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Interesting concept... MPs listening to their constituents. It's a novel experience for me, but my (new) MP has been holding consultations on Brexit - and in general seems to be pretty responsive.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

26th November 2018, 02:11 PM	#304
Garrison Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,590	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge The latest YouGov poll I've seen says half of Leave voters think No Deal would be good for Britain and a quarter think it would be bad. As you may imagine, the vast majority of Remain voters think No Deal would be bad. Well those who think No Deal would a good idea are the ones who still listen to the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, and they are as much a lost cause as the hardcore Trumpistas.
Garrison Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,590	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

26th November 2018, 02:20 PM	#305
RolandRat Thinker Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 195	Originally Posted by Garrison Well those who think No Deal would a good idea are the ones who still listen to the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, and they are as much a lost cause as the hardcore Trumpistas. AKA Daily Mail readers.
RolandRat Thinker Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 195

27th November 2018, 04:33 AM	#306
toto Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 679	Originally Posted by Vixen That is not true for May. She is a lousy negotiator. Negotiation is an art. The guys at ACAS have arbitrators with arbitration diplomas. It is knowing how to drive a hard bargain between, say, a rail union with striking members holding out for specific conditions against the bosses on behalf of the government 'refusing to budge'. A good negotiator will hammer out a deal that is win-win for both sides. May has no negotiating skill at all. She has sold the UK down the river (thank goodness for Gina Miller forcing her to have it approved by parliament first). She has brought about a 'lose-win' deal in the EU's favour. Of course they have approved it. What's not to approve? She has conceded at every possible juncture. She has made the fatal mistake of wanting to be liked. She has shown herself to be acquiescent and amenable when toughness and vision was needed. To try to cover up her deficient negotiations - if we can even call it that; 'surrender' is a better word - she makes matters worse by using dog-whistle racism in her appeal to the British public ('no more queue-jumping by EU nationals') and blatant lies. Someone needs to give her Sun Tzu, The Art of War for Christmas. She sees herself as a latter day 'Iron Lady' Thatcher, when in reality May is a pushover five-quid slut in curlers who'll say, 'OK, I'll do it for a quid'. As you said in 4/5/18, in your circles it is normal to jokingly call a friend 'you slut' for still being in a dressing gown and slippers. Is this what you mean here?
toto Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 679	__________________ Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. Samuel Beckett

27th November 2018, 05:40 AM	#307
Information Analyst Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 8,822	Euronews: I'm being 'thrown out' of the European Parliament, says Sinn Fein MEP "Sinn Fein MEP Martina Anderson told Euronews she would be “thrown out” of the European Parliament in March 2019 because of Brexit. Anderson and her party called for a Remain vote in the referendum, alongside 56% of the population of Northern Ireland. Now she says the withdrawal agreement “should pass” in Westminster in December, when UK MPs vote on the entire Brexit deal so far. “It’s a stepping stone in that there is a special status for Northern Ireland,” she said, but citizens are about to lose their representation as soon as Brexit happens next year." <Elfo>At least SF voters still have their representation at Westmi... oooh...</Elfo>

27th November 2018, 05:43 AM	#308
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	Leave cheated and is subject to a criminal investigation. Apparently, nobody cares. I find this extremely frustrating to the point of being really quite angry about it.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	__________________ Up the River!

27th November 2018, 06:36 AM	#309
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12,257	Originally Posted by 3point14 Leave cheated and is subject to a criminal investigation. Apparently, nobody cares. I find this extremely frustrating to the point of being really quite angry about it. I fear it's much, much worse than that they cheated. Continuous reporting and investigations have made it clearer and clearer why they cheated and who helped them.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

27th November 2018, 06:44 AM	#310
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,345	Originally Posted by 3point14 Apparently, nobody cares. Nobody cares and even if they did they wouldn't be able to do anything about it anyway. Which is why it happens in the first place.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

27th November 2018, 06:47 AM	#311
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,711	Originally Posted by 3point14 Leave cheated and is subject to a criminal investigation. Apparently, nobody cares. I find this extremely frustrating to the point of being really quite angry about it. If the overspend affected the results, than it is an admission by the remainers that their ideas are so crappy they can't win under that condition. Here is an idea...have a policy proposal so good it doesn't matter how much is spent.

27th November 2018, 06:50 AM	#312
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,345	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward If the overspend affected the results, than it is an admission by the remainers that their ideas are so crappy they can't win under that condition. Here is an idea...have a policy proposal so good it doesn't matter how much is spent. Brilliant logic. If one side cheats its an admission that the other side are losers. Does that work in sport too?
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

27th November 2018, 06:55 AM	#313
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,711	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Brilliant logic. If one side cheats its an admission that the other side are losers. Does that work in sport too? Yes. If you are not good enough to win against cheating then you are not good enough. Get better.

27th November 2018, 07:45 AM	#314
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	Originally Posted by uke2se I fear it's much, much worse than that they cheated. Continuous reporting and investigations have made it clearer and clearer why they cheated and who helped them. I'd really like some very high profile prosecutions. I can't see that happening. Something is very, very rotten at no. 10
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	__________________ Up the River!

27th November 2018, 07:58 AM	#315
Earthborn Terrestrial Intelligence Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Terra Firma Posts: 6,022	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward If the overspend affected the results, than it is an admission by the remainers that their ideas are so crappy they can't win under that condition. It is certainly an admission that the Remain campaign was not very good. Even the remainers were not very enthusiastic about the EU and nobody made a clear case for why it is a good idea to not shred nearly all international agreements and then trying to negotiate new ones. The remainers did not even bother to explain what the EU is and what it does.
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