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Old 26th January 2019, 06:36 AM   #1
shankara
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Spiritual Socialism

Can’t be bothered to read this article…? You might find it interesting...
Well, if not then you can just go straight to socialgnosis.org (where you’ll find free copies of the books that this is mostly about and some more articles by various authors)

By the way, I know you don't like copy-paste here but this article took some time to write and so I hope it's ok to share it here as well as other places...


Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 4. Content is available elsewhere, e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/OccultConsp...forces_really/

Last edited by zooterkin; 27th January 2019 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 26th January 2019, 10:32 AM   #2
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Has Mr. Rodríguez inhabited his mummy yet?
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 26th January 2019, 10:40 AM   #3
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Why is the thread title yelling at me?
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Old 26th January 2019, 10:55 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Why is the thread title yelling at me?
YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DID!
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Old 26th January 2019, 11:02 AM   #5
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I got to “It is stupid, terribly stupid" before losing interest. Did I miss something?
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Old 26th January 2019, 11:19 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
I got to “It is stupid, terribly stupid" before losing interest. Did I miss something?
WW2 revisionism, celebration of "Germany", and an indictment of Communism.

I'll let you piece together what it all means.
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Old 26th January 2019, 11:23 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
WW2 revisionism, celebration of "Germany", and an indictment of Communism.

I'll let you piece together what it all means.
Zero
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Old 26th January 2019, 11:28 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Why is the thread title yelling at me?
Sorry, bad habit, but as all of the subtitles are in capitals...

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
WW2 revisionism, celebration of "Germany", and an indictment of Communism.

I'll let you piece together what it all means.
Without going into my personal perspective on this, the two sentences before the Germany quote in the article are:

Quote:
HITLER in his book entitled “MEIN KAMPF”, says the following word for word: “The highest purpose of the State of the people is to attend to the reservation of those primary Racial elements that, in supplying culture, create the beauty and dignity of a superior humanity, we, as ARYANS, can conceive of the state only as the living organism of a nationality which not only assures the preservation of it’s nationality....”

The POLITICS of blood and horror that he developed against the Semitic people was frightful and had as its base that mistaken concept.
And I don't think there's anything revisionist about the fact that Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo happened. This is mentioned as a critique of the USA and not a justification of fascist ideology.

Last edited by shankara; 26th January 2019 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 26th January 2019, 07:16 PM   #9
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Having worked with the UN on peacekeeping/peace support missions I just have to tell you that I laugh out loud when I read the crank lobby worrying about the UN creating a police state. The UN in the from of a military backed peace mission is paralyzed by its democracy. You won't understand the UN until you see a UN multinational brigade commander trying to give orders to his brigade and listening to all the national caveats from his battalion commanders as to why they can't follow his orders.

Of all the ill-formed, intellectually vacant and unsophisticated thoughts expressed above, the idea that the UN is plotting tyranny on a global scale takes pride of place for weak scholarship in a field of admittedly, stiff competition.
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Old 26th January 2019, 07:47 PM   #10
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Exactly. Thre UN can't even really enforce a cease fire in a backward hellhole like Somalia, but it's going to impose a police state on the US and Western Europe. Yeah, Right.
I submit this thread should be moved to the conspiracy section.
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Old 27th January 2019, 03:15 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Having worked with the UN on peacekeeping/peace support missions I just have to tell you that I laugh out loud when I read the crank lobby worrying about the UN creating a police state. The UN in the from of a military backed peace mission is paralyzed by its democracy. You won't understand the UN until you see a UN multinational brigade commander trying to give orders to his brigade and listening to all the national caveats from his battalion commanders as to why they can't follow his orders.

Of all the ill-formed, intellectually vacant and unsophisticated thoughts expressed above, the idea that the UN is plotting tyranny on a global scale takes pride of place for weak scholarship in a field of admittedly, stiff competition.
A lot of people have been talking lately about "Agenda 21". I don't think that the value of the article exactly rests on whether or not that is correct. Also, has anyone actually had a look at the books themselves?
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Old 27th January 2019, 08:05 AM   #12
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I think this should definitely go to the conspiracy theory section.
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Old 27th January 2019, 08:14 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
I think this should definitely go to the conspiracy theory section.

That’s what they want you to think.
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Old 27th January 2019, 08:45 AM   #14
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A new consciousness, a new spirituality, a new era of thought, a new terrain of ideas, same old wankery.

"We can solve all fundamental political conflicts. Step 1 is to change human nature. Step 2 is... well, we've never had to worry about that, because Step 1 never actually happens."
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Old 27th January 2019, 09:41 AM   #15
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A gnostic following someone named Samael? The Demiurge?
Methinks they're a few Sophias short of a Godhead...
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Old 27th January 2019, 09:47 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
I think this should definitely go to the conspiracy theory section.
Some of the book deals with some ideas which are conspiracy theory ish. But there are also a lot of practical ideas in it, commentaries on newspaper articles, things that he's seen in the streets, commentaries on laws etc. I wouldn't label it as a "conspiracy theory book" even if some of the mysticism in it might go a bit beyond 'normal' politics.

I mean, not many conspiracy theorists are thinking about the necessity for Latin America to industrialize and the need to organize unions...

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
A gnostic following someone named Samael? The Demiurge?
Methinks they're a few Sophias short of a Godhead...
Yeah it does sound a little strange from that perspective, doesn't it... I'm sure there's a good explanation...
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Old 27th January 2019, 01:15 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Why is the thread title yelling at me?
A habit of Rodríguez

Originally Posted by timhau View Post
I got to “It is stupid, terribly stupid" before losing interest. Did I miss something?
Nope.

Originally Posted by timhau View Post
I think this should definitely go to the conspiracy theory section.
Yep.
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Old 27th January 2019, 02:13 PM   #18
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So I actually AM my brother's keeper? Or entitled to all my brother's stuff? I like it!
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Old 27th January 2019, 04:25 PM   #19
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I see my suggestion this be moved to the Conspiracy Section has be acted upon.

So Let It Be Written, So Let It Be Done.......
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Old 27th January 2019, 06:01 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see my suggestion this be moved to the Conspiracy Section has be acted upon.

So Let It Be Written, So Let It Be Done.......
Plus the title stopped screaming. So...we're all set to talk about the rise of the Fourth...I mean, the subject matter?
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:41 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
So I actually AM my brother's keeper? Or entitled to all my brother's stuff? I like it!
I haven't got a brother. Is there some kind of adoption process I can go through, so I can get and keep one too?
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Is there some kind of adoption process I can go through, so I can get and keep one too?

You can, but the road is long, with many a winding turn. And you have to be strong enough to carry him.


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Old 28th January 2019, 01:50 AM   #23
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I think the author of the article should visit the UK some time. A lot of what he wants is already in place.
For example:
He complains about the limited choice Americans have when they vote. No problem. We've got loads of political parties.
The need for industrialisation. Actually, we invented that. Problem solved.
Small businesses should be added, and monopolies prohibited. Tick that as well.

Shankara: it is just possible that someone's (in many cases quite justified) concerns about conditions in Latin America in the 1960s may not be relevant to other countries and other times. What do you think?
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:22 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
So I actually AM my brother's keeper? Or entitled to all my brother's stuff? I like it!
It was Cain who said "Am I my brother's keeper?". Not such a great example.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I think the author of the article should visit the UK some time. A lot of what he wants is already in place.
For example:
He complains about the limited choice Americans have when they vote. No problem. We've got loads of political parties.
The need for industrialisation. Actually, we invented that. Problem solved.
Small businesses should be added, and monopolies prohibited. Tick that as well.

Shankara: it is just possible that someone's (in many cases quite justified) concerns about conditions in Latin America in the 1960s may not be relevant to other countries and other times. What do you think?
Well you know I have been to the UK seeing as I'm from the UK. It's certainly true that Latin America in the 1960's is not Western Europe at the moment. I think the problem in the Western countries is mainly that we are the oppressor, rather than the oppressed (Samael says that we should be neither).

Ok, so there are lots of political parties. People don't vote them either because they believe the lies they're being sold, or simply because they don't think there's any chance of them winning.

Industrialization? We've become a service economy. We certainly aren't self-sufficient. Perhaps this is more relevant to poorer countries, but still self-sufficiency to me seems a wise thing to strive for.

As for monopolies, the UK is lowering it's already low corporate tax rate...

Anyway, the majority of the stuff in the book we have not arrived at yet. For example, the distribution of lands to the people so that they can grow food for themselves and for the cities. Doesn't everyone have the right to a patch of ground to cultivate? Or what about the distribution of a company's profits among all the workers? Why does some fatcat CEO who doesn't even work as hard as they do have the right to the profits they have created?

Like I said in the article, the books are from another time and are to some extent outdated. Still there is a lot of material in them that could be useful and give a new perspective on social problems. Samael proposes such innovative solutions, for example - the religions stop building temples and start building shelters for the homeless. Or, in general, a political party which bases it's proselytizing on deeds, not empty words.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:05 AM   #25
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Another couple of examples of his innovative ideas. There's more like this, I'm just a little too occupied to seek out and list every one of them at the moment.

- He suggested that we should replace the gold-backed currency with work-backed currency, the work standard...
- He suggested that we replace taxes on wages with a system of spending-saving, taxing production and consumption:

"Let everything that produces and everything that is consumed be taxed with just taxes.
With great pleasure we will pay the taxes for producing, for buying, if we know that with these taxes we are saving for OLD AGE, DISEASES, ACCIDENTS, NEEDS etc., etc., etc.
THIS SYSTEM of saving by spending, can solve all the economic problems of the people.
It is absurd to tax the wages of workers, being able to save by spending.
If everything that is produced, if all the goods that we buy from a simple box of tapers or matches to a car or a house are taxed with fair taxes, it is clear that there will be sufficient national savings to attend to all the problems of the INDIVIDUAL and the SOCIETY.
This is an obligatory saving system that does not harm the individual, neither the family nor the society."

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Old 28th January 2019, 11:33 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
I think this should definitely go to the conspiracy theory section.
We really need a sub-forum of conspiracy for 'conspiracies that are just to dumb to consider'.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:06 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post


Ok, so there are lots of political parties. People don't vote them either because they believe the lies they're being sold, or simply because they don't think there's any chance of them winning.
Did you perhaps oversleep on every election day, and not notice the large numbers of people voting? Turnout is between 60 and 90%.
http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Industrialization? We've become a service economy. We certainly aren't self-sufficient. Perhaps this is more relevant to poorer countries, but still self-sufficiency to me seems a wise thing to strive for.
Yes, the UK has what is called a post-industrialisation economy. A modicum of research into economics might be of use to you. The service and finance sector is what has helped make the British economy one of the largest in the world.
It might also show you how industrialised economies need markets for their products, and raw materials for their manufacture. I am puzzled why you think that an industrialised country should be self-sufficient, or even how you think this might be possible.
Moreover, a retreat into self-sufficiency would end the UK's imports of goods from developing countries that desperately need that income. Global trade binds us together, and helps us realise how we all depend on each other. This was a specific aim of the EEC, for example. Reducing co-operation and increasing selfishness are no way to make the world a better place.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
As for monopolies, the UK is lowering it's already low corporate tax rate...
I fail to see the relevance of this to monopolies.
Have you heard of the Competition and Markets Authority? This seems to be another part of life in Britain that has passed you by. It's the part of the UK government that is tasked with preventing monopolies.



I am short on time, so I will deal with your other points later.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:52 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Did you perhaps oversleep on every election day, and not notice the large numbers of people voting? Turnout is between 60 and 90%.
http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm




Yes, the UK has what is called a post-industrialisation economy. A modicum of research into economics might be of use to you. The service and finance sector is what has helped make the British economy one of the largest in the world.
It might also show you how industrialised economies need markets for their products, and raw materials for their manufacture. I am puzzled why you think that an industrialised country should be self-sufficient, or even how you think this might be possible.
Moreover, a retreat into self-sufficiency would end the UK's imports of goods from developing countries that desperately need that income. Global trade binds us together, and helps us realise how we all depend on each other. This was a specific aim of the EEC, for example. Reducing co-operation and increasing selfishness are no way to make the world a better place.



I fail to see the relevance of this to monopolies.
Have you heard of the Competition and Markets Authority? This seems to be another part of life in Britain that has passed you by. It's the part of the UK government that is tasked with preventing monopolies.



I am short on time, so I will deal with your other points later.
Turning out to choose between the same dictator with a different mustache isn't genuine choice. That was what I was arguing, not that there isn't the semblance of choice.

Great, a big economy. "What shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?". It's true we do get exports from developing countries... and don't pay them enough for them... enslave people in the name of the "free market" neo-liberal orthodoxy, that self-interest will save the world.

If you think that the big corporations aren't essentially monopolies, in the sense that other businesses can't really compete with them... I despair... his The popular proverb that Samael quotes sums it up:

"To he who has a horse they give a horse.
To he who has no horse they give a kick."


Anyway, as I said, I suppose the book is more about the oppressed than the oppressor, it's primarily about Latin America. If it would be useful in Europe it would be more that some of the ideas could be taken and applied than that it describes the situation.

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Old 29th January 2019, 04:15 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
A lot of people have been talking lately about "Agenda 21". I don't think that the value of the article exactly rests on whether or not that is correct. Also, has anyone actually had a look at the books themselves?
People have been talking about Agenda 21 since the late 1980s - it was a topic for discussion when I was at University.

People who discuss it nowadays tend to have absolutely no idea about what it is, or what it aimed to try and do, or that it has pretty much failed to achieve any of its lofty aims in all that time.
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:31 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
We really need a sub-forum of conspiracy for 'conspiracies that are just to dumb to consider'.
t'd be kind of weird having a big subforum inside a deserted main section.
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Old 29th January 2019, 05:41 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Turning out to choose between the same dictator with a different mustache isn't genuine choice. That was what I was arguing, not that there isn't the semblance of choice.
It is my experience that only those who live in democracies are so cynical about democracy. If you are unable to see the difference between the various parties and their policies, that is more a reflection of you than it is of society. I suggest you spend some time living in an actual police state: it may give you some perspective, and teach you to be grateful for the liberties you enjoy.
I note that you have ignored my rebuttal of your original point. Do you accept that most of the electorate does, in fact, participate in elections?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Great, a big economy. "What shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?". It's true we do get exports from developing countries... and don't pay them enough for them... enslave people in the name of the "free market" neo-liberal orthodoxy, that self-interest will save the world.
Utter hogwash. Global trade has lifted millions of people out of poverty, and grown the economies of numerous countries.
Don't forget, it was you who espoused self-interest in your last post. How will not buying anything from the developing world, at any price, fair or not, benefit them?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
If you think that the big corporations aren't essentially monopolies, in the sense that other businesses can't really compete with them... I despair...
Once again, your lack of knowledge and understanding of business and economics is causing you to come out with statements like this.
Smaller businesses are more flexible and responsive, and can cater to niche markets in ways that larger ones cannot. Small businesses grow into larger ones, whilst large ones become outdated and fossilised. Most of the UK's economy is composed of SMEs. I urge you to put down the Samael guff and read some basic textbooks. You will find them quite enlightening.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Anyway, as I said, I suppose the book is more about the oppressed than the oppressor, it's primarily about Latin America. If it would be useful in Europe it would be more that some of the ideas could be taken and applied than that it describes the situation.

If you persist in seeing the world in dualistic and simplistic terms of oppressor and oppressed, then this is all you will see. In reality, the world is more complex than that. India, Brazil, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Myanmar- there is a long list of developing countries which oppress their own citizens. On the other hand, the EU is highly pro-active in ensuring fair trade, both on a governmental level and through the actions of individuals and NGOs. It doesn't divide so neatly into Europe=oppressor/ Developing world= oppressed.
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Old 29th January 2019, 06:14 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
And I don't think there's anything revisionist about the fact that Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo happened. This is mentioned as a critique of the USA and not a justification of fascist ideology.
Quote:
“However the doctrine of HITLER is not the Doctrine of the entire GERMAN PEOPLE. Really in Germany THERE IS a lot of COMPREHENSION and if they were cruel in the war, the NORTH AMERICANS OF THE UNITED STATES were worse.

Terrible things were seen on the battlefields, when the North Americans understood that they were powerless against the GERMAN courage, they then dedicated themselves to bombarding defenceless cities and killing the elderly, women and children.

The German soldiers were demoralized many times when they understood that their wives and children were being murdered miserably while they were fighting with the enemy in the BATTLEFIELD.

There is no doubt that avoiding the battlefield to commit murder of women and children is cowardice of the worst kind.”
The essence of this quote is "The US (and its Western Allies) couldn't beat the Germans in a fair fight so they went after the women and children."

The reality of the quote is that it is pure and utter bunk. The Allied armies did not fear to face the Nazi forces. The war was essentially a quick Nazi advance, followed by the Allies pushing them back.

And to be honest, if the German people didn't want to suffer civilian casualties they probably shouldn't have started the war in the first place. Complaining that you got the tar whaled out of you after starting the fight doesn't garner a lot of sympathy...
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Old 29th January 2019, 07:32 AM   #33
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I mean, maybe my opinions aren't really of capital importance. I posted all this stuff in the hope that people might read the books and get something from them. I'm not claiming to be an authority on anything, but Samael's wisdom to me seems legitimate

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It is my experience that only those who live in democracies are so cynical about democracy. If you are unable to see the difference between the various parties and their policies, that is more a reflection of you than it is of society. I suggest you spend some time living in an actual police state: it may give you some perspective, and teach you to be grateful for the liberties you enjoy.
I note that you have ignored my rebuttal of your original point. Do you accept that most of the electorate does, in fact, participate in elections?
Yeah sure, Europe is still 'the free world' in a sense. Probably it would be worse in a lot of ways, living under a 'real' dictatorship. That doesn't mean it has arrived at "authentic and legitimate democracy"

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Utter hogwash. Global trade has lifted millions of people out of poverty, and grown the economies of numerous countries.
Don't forget, it was you who espoused self-interest in your last post. How will not buying anything from the developing world, at any price, fair or not, benefit them?
Still the cruelty being inflicted on the countries which are producing all our nice pretty things is extreme. Actually I suppose it would be useless for the UK to become self-sufficient, seeing as it's Babylon and Babylon is going to fall... But for the South American countries it is necessary to get out from under the boot-heal of the US Imperium.

I think that if Neo-Liberalism has real benefits for most people it wouldn't be that every year the number of billionaires who all together own as much is the bottom half of humanity is shrinking... It may have some benefits for some people, that's all.


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Once again, your lack of knowledge and understanding of business and economics is causing you to come out with statements like this.
Smaller businesses are more flexible and responsive, and can cater to niche markets in ways that larger ones cannot. Small businesses grow into larger ones, whilst large ones become outdated and fossilised. Most of the UK's economy is composed of SMEs. I urge you to put down the Samael guff and read some basic textbooks. You will find them quite enlightening.
It's true, I'm not an expert on economics. Still I know that Corporations are robbing the mass of humanity, acting purely to enrich shareholders. The world would be a better place without the corporations. They do not need to exist. They are parasites, vampiric entities sucking the life out of humanity. They require some countries to be poor, in order to produce at low prices the crap they sell...



Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
If you persist in seeing the world in dualistic and simplistic terms of oppressor and oppressed, then this is all you will see. In reality, the world is more complex than that. India, Brazil, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Myanmar- there is a long list of developing countries which oppress their own citizens. On the other hand, the EU is highly pro-active in ensuring fair trade, both on a governmental level and through the actions of individuals and NGOs. It doesn't divide so neatly into Europe=oppressor/ Developing world= oppressed.
It may be that the oppressed countries have internal forms of oppression as well. That doesn't mean that we aren't oppressing them, and often collaborating with those internal oppressors (the image that springs to mind is the Chicago School economists drawing up Pinochet's economic plans as his tanks roll through the streets to seize power).

Also the Yankees use their leverage to economically or otherwise attack any country that tries a different system, like Venezuala... I mean, c'mon, that whole thing is blatantly engineered...
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Old 29th January 2019, 08:47 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I mean, maybe my opinions aren't really of capital importance. I posted all this stuff in the hope that people might read the books and get something from them. I'm not claiming to be an authority on anything, but Samael's wisdom to me seems legitimate



Yeah sure, Europe is still 'the free world' in a sense. Probably it would be worse in a lot of ways, living under a 'real' dictatorship. That doesn't mean it has arrived at "authentic and legitimate democracy"



Still the cruelty being inflicted on the countries which are producing all our nice pretty things is extreme. Actually I suppose it would be useless for the UK to become self-sufficient, seeing as it's Babylon and Babylon is going to fall... But for the South American countries it is necessary to get out from under the boot-heal of the US Imperium.

I think that if Neo-Liberalism has real benefits for most people it wouldn't be that every year the number of billionaires who all together own as much is the bottom half of humanity is shrinking... It may have some benefits for some people, that's all.




It's true, I'm not an expert on economics. Still I know that Corporations are robbing the mass of humanity, acting purely to enrich shareholders. The world would be a better place without the corporations. They do not need to exist. They are parasites, vampiric entities sucking the life out of humanity. They require some countries to be poor, in order to produce at low prices the crap they sell...





It may be that the oppressed countries have internal forms of oppression as well. That doesn't mean that we aren't oppressing them, and often collaborating with those internal oppressors (the image that springs to mind is the Chicago School economists drawing up Pinochet's economic plans as his tanks roll through the streets to seize power).

Also the Yankees use their leverage to economically or otherwise attack any country that tries a different system, like Venezuala... I mean, c'mon, that whole thing is blatantly engineered...
Enough 'reasons' not to bother with the books. IMHO.
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Old 29th January 2019, 10:26 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
t'd be kind of weird having a big subforum inside a deserted main section.
Yeah you're right I was being rational again....must stop that.
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Old 29th January 2019, 11:26 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
It's true, I'm not an expert on economics. Still I know that Corporations are robbing the mass of humanity, acting purely to enrich shareholders. The world would be a better place without the corporations. They do not need to exist. They are parasites, vampiric entities sucking the life out of humanity. They require some countries to be poor, in order to produce at low prices the crap they sell...
Without corporations, who makes the cars, jets, power stations, etc.?
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Old 29th January 2019, 11:55 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
The essence of this quote is "The US (and its Western Allies) couldn't beat the Germans in a fair fight so they went after the women and children."

The reality of the quote is that it is pure and utter bunk. The Allied armies did not fear to face the Nazi forces. The war was essentially a quick Nazi advance, followed by the Allies pushing them back.

And to be honest, if the German people didn't want to suffer civilian casualties they probably shouldn't have started the war in the first place. Complaining that you got the tar whaled out of you after starting the fight doesn't garner a lot of sympathy...
so now we have somebody on the far left end of the political spectrum quoting Neo Nazi talking points. Nice.
BTW what you say about Germany in WW2 also applies to Japan. To hear some people tell it, Japan was peacefully minding it's own business when the big bad Americans starting bombing them for no reason. Leaving out Pearl Harbor, Just ask the Chinese about that....
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:21 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Without corporations, who makes the cars, jets, power stations, etc.?
Some entity with concerns other than profit, profit, and more profit.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
so now we have somebody on the far left end of the political spectrum quoting Neo Nazi talking points. Nice.
BTW what you say about Germany in WW2 also applies to Japan. To hear some people tell it, Japan was peacefully minding it's own business when the big bad Americans starting bombing them for no reason. Leaving out Pearl Harbor, Just ask the Chinese about that....
Samael is not on the far left or right. He critiqued both Communism and Fascism/Nazism (as well as Capitalism of course) Earlier someone was saying that my dividing humanity in oppressor and oppressed was Dualistic. The political spectrum is a Dualistic construction, take the best parts of each view, find the essence.

I mentioned Japan. The firebombing of Tokyo was unnecessary. It's said that before Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese had offered to surrender if they could keep their emperor, that the Americans dropped the bombs then accepted the same terms. Maybe this is speculation, but given the USA's record, forgive my skepticism...


But let's stick to examples when the big bad Americans do bomb people for no reason. Vietnam. Only 3 MILLION DEAD (not to mention the forests and agricultural lands poisoned with DDT etc.)
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:25 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Some entity with concerns other than profit, profit, and more profit.
Why would that entity make cars, jet engines or power plants?
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:38 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Why would that entity make cars, jet engines or power plants?
The workers (not shareholders) of that entity would receive a share of the profit, the amount or percentage of which would be determined by considerations of distributive justice and social utility. Many people enjoy fruitful and creative work, knowing that they are working for the common good makes them happier than being extremely rich. Anyway, nobody would be extremely rich in a society of distributive justice...
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