ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 5th February 2019, 06:36 AM   #1
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,572
Liam Neeson's Racist Revenge Plan

Actor Liam Neeson was discussing how he understood the primal desire for revenge with a personal anecdote: long ago, a loved one had been raped by a black man, and he became obsessed with the idea of revenge. He took to walking the streets, hoping a 'black bastard' would pick a fight with him so he could kill him. Neeson acknowledges how horribly wrong it was, and that although he understands that revenge doesn't work, there is a deep, irrational desire for it. Predictably, he is being blasted as a racist. I take this as not being against black men per se, but that he only knew the attacker was black and a man, so those were the only elements he had to irrationally focus on.

Pain and obsession with revenge are a thing, IMO. Does he get a pass for his temporary, misplaced desire to kill a black man, or is he rotten at the core and the rape is what brought it to the surface?

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/04/enter...eeson-revenge/
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 06:52 AM   #2
Guybrush Threepwood
Trainee Pirate
 
Guybrush Threepwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: An Uaimh
Posts: 2,616
Seems pretty straight up racist to me, It was a long time ago, and he may have changed his opinion since then, but that interview did nothing to improve my opinion of Liam Neeson.
Guybrush Threepwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 06:55 AM   #3
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,555
Yeah it's racist. To be fair it's a man admitting to a moment of racism in the past and that is certainly a factor, but you can't argue the initial thought isn't racist.

We have to maintain a balance between treating "racism" no matter how fleeting and how much time as passed since it as a sin one can never hope to recover from and sticking our head in the sand and pretending that in and off itself it's not racism.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 5th February 2019 at 06:59 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 06:57 AM   #4
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,989
Would it be considered racist if he was out looking for a white man?
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 06:59 AM   #5
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,555
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Would it be considered racist if he was out looking for a white man?
To me? Yes.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:09 AM   #6
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,107
Who exactly was supposed to be the audience for this confession?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:11 AM   #7
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,572
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who exactly was supposed to be the audience for this confession?
As I understand it, promoting his movie with a theme of bloodlust revenge, and his personal identification with that primal obsession
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:12 AM   #8
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,572
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah it's racist. To be fair it's a man admitting to a moment of racism in the past and that is certainly a factor, but you can't argue the initial thought isn't racist.

We have to maintain a balance between treating "racism" no matter how fleeting and how much time as passed since it as a sin one can never hope to recover from and sticking our head in the sand and pretending that in and off itself it's not racism.
Indisputably racist at the time, but should he be taken to task for it now? I'd give him a pass, as it was prompted by irrational grief.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:16 AM   #9
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,758
"Wanting to kill the guy who raped his loved one" - not racist
"Wanting to kill any random individual with the same skin colour as the person who raped your loved one" - racist

It's not that hard...

ETA: now, does that mean he is 'a racist', i.e. someone who believes that black people are inherently inferior to whites? I don't think so, I think he was having an irrational reaction because of grief.
But fantasizing that 'a black man' would pick a fight with you because 'a black man' raped someone is still racist.

Last edited by Porpoise of Life; 5th February 2019 at 07:19 AM.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:18 AM   #10
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 30,191
Rule of thumb: If you don't want to get stung by bees, don't whack the hive with a stick.
__________________
"Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady
"I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky
"Real name? Xavier Jorge Gladdius Horatio McShrimp. No wonder he goes by shemp." - wasapi
"...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:20 AM   #11
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,572
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
"Wanting to kill the guy who raped his loved one" - not racist
"Wanting to kill any random individual with the same skin colour as the person who raped your loved one" - racist

It's not that hard...
Of course it was a racist plan. That is a given (see thread title).

Before this gets all sidetracked, the question is: can you become temporarily and irrationally racist when in torment, or does something like this bring to the surface your 'true feelings'?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:21 AM   #12
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
The narrative isn't racist but the fact he referred to his alleged target as a 'black bastard' is odd. Why didn't he just say 'black man'?

Then again, he's always been a tosser, another actor who confuses his on-screen persona with real life.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:22 AM   #13
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,555
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Indisputably racist at the time, but should he be taken to task for it now? I'd give him a pass, as it was prompted by irrational grief.
"Forgive / Not Forgive" is not binary a thing for me in the sense most people use it, there's just new information about a person that I have integrate into my view of them.

If it is, as he presents it, a case of just rage and anger he had briefly long ago I hardly see the need to bring out the hammer and nails, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't effect my viewing of him as a person as some complete package. I'm not the Catholic Church I have options beyond "Forgive" and "Eternal Damnation."

I'm sorry I don't have some perfect "wrapped in a bow" answer.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 5th February 2019 at 07:25 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:23 AM   #14
ThatGuy11200
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 127
I imagine that if she'd said he was white, his next question would have been "Was he English?"
ThatGuy11200 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:29 AM   #15
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,989
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
"Wanting to kill the guy who raped his loved one" - not racist
"Wanting to kill any random individual with the same skin colour as the person who raped your loved one" - racist

It's not that hard...

ETA: now, does that mean he is 'a racist', i.e. someone who believes that black people are inherently inferior to whites? I don't think so, I think he was having an irrational reaction because of grief.
But fantasizing that 'a black man' would pick a fight with you because 'a black man' raped someone is still racist.
Agree with this take. But I would allow a for temporary insanity defense.

It is difficult to understand the type of rage that would be accompanying the rape of a family member.

I think you can have racist thoughts, during a time of extreme mental trauma. That you might be disgusted by after the trauma passes.

I'm led to the scene in Platoon when they wipe out the village in a mass rage.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:30 AM   #16
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,572
Originally Posted by baron View Post
The narrative isn't racist but the fact he referred to his alleged target as a 'black bastard' is odd. Why didn't he just say 'black man'?

Then again, he's always been a tosser, another actor who confuses his on-screen persona with real life.
In context, he put a lot of emphasis on the words 'black bastard', like he was trying to convey his frame of mind, rather than clinically describing his target.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:31 AM   #17
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,956
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In context, he put a lot of emphasis on the words 'black bastard', like he was trying to convey his frame of mind, rather than clinically describing his target.
baron was making a racist joke.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:33 AM   #18
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,572
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Forgive / Not Forgive" is not binary a thing for me in the sense most people use it, there's just new information about a person that I have integrate into my view of them.

If it is, as he presents it, a case of just rage and anger he had briefly long ago I hardly see the need to bring out the hammer and nails, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't effect my viewing of him as a person as some complete package. I'm not the Catholic Church I have options beyond "Forgive" and "Eternal Damnation."

I'm sorry I don't have some perfect "wrapped in a bow" answer.
Not looking for an answer as much as thoughts on the matter. Specifically, when pushed to an extreme, do we resort to our core beliefs that are suppressed in polite society, or do we lose all sense of reason? This was not a fast outburst, either. He prowled around with a crowbar for like a week before shaking himself out of it.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:38 AM   #19
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,287
Weird thing to bring up even when he's trying to sell his latest revenge fantasy film, seems to be the majority of his work in the last 20 years.

Revenge fantasy regarding the attacker of your loved one, not racist.
Wanting any "black bastard" to start a fight in order to satisfy said fantasy, racist. But a generalized anger at the obvious group the attacker belonged to, is absolutely understandable and probably similar to the way most folks would actually react. I don't even think this is a thing that needs forgiving. It was a passing and totally understandable reaction that he clearly did not act on. Had he actually done something violent, then we could talk about forgiveness.

Of there are actually folks outraged over this statement, they are stupid but he should just respond with, it was a moment when I was very angry and it passed. There is no need for an apology for bad thoughts during a bad time.

Also, it happened how long ago? It lasted how long?

Last edited by ahhell; 5th February 2019 at 07:40 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:38 AM   #20
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,829
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not looking for an answer as much as thoughts on the matter. Specifically, when pushed to an extreme, do we resort to our core beliefs that are suppressed in polite society, or do we lose all sense of reason? This was not a fast outburst, either. He prowled around with a crowbar for like a week before shaking himself out of it.
What else did he have to focus his ire on, other than the person who created his rage was a member of an easily identifiable "other" group?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:39 AM   #21
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In context, he put a lot of emphasis on the words 'black bastard', like he was trying to convey his frame of mind, rather than clinically describing his target.
Fair enough, I didn't listen to the interview. I'll fall back on the 'tosser' theory, then.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
baron was making a racist joke.
I was?
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:40 AM   #22
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,555
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not looking for an answer as much as thoughts on the matter. Specifically, when pushed to an extreme, do we resort to our core beliefs that are suppressed in polite society, or do we lose all sense of reason? This was not a fast outburst, either. He prowled around with a crowbar for like a week before shaking himself out of it.
As best as I can put it we revert to a more basic, reflexive version of ourselves.

But that's not the same thing as saying that version of a person is the "truer" or "real" version of that person.

Stress doesn't purify us and reveal our real selves (as much as "real selves" is even a thing), it adds complexity.

- Liam Neeson is the kind of person who, when under stress, reverts to a person more open to racism.

and

- That "version" of Liam Neeson is the "real" one.

are not the same thing.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:42 AM   #23
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,956
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not looking for an answer as much as thoughts on the matter. Specifically, when pushed to an extreme, do we resort to our core beliefs that are suppressed in polite society, or do we lose all sense of reason? This was not a fast outburst, either. He prowled around with a crowbar for like a week before shaking himself out of it.
I don't know how "long ago" this was. But in my opinion, people do a lot of things, especially when they are young, that they later come to regret. If he had actually killed someone then this would have consequences that can't be washed away, but in his case he is merely confessing to have harboured thoughts that, through moral luck, he had never acted on. As a result, I don't have any problem with him talking about how he was irrational once, given that what he thinks now is what matters. Does he think, for example, that he was right or wrong? Does he think he can pass on these lessons of realizing he was wrong to others he is responsible for instructing such as any children he may have or who he may teach etc...?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:45 AM   #24
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,956
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I was?
I assume so, although I am always happy to be corrected. Maybe you could explain why it is odd he said "black bastard" and not "black man".

Originally Posted by baron View Post
The narrative isn't racist but the fact he referred to his alleged target as a 'black bastard' is odd. Why didn't he just say 'black man'?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:46 AM   #25
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I assume so, although I am always happy to be corrected. Maybe you could explain why it is odd he said "black bastard" and not "black man".
Do you normally say 'black bastard' when you mean 'black man'?
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:47 AM   #26
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,559
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Seems pretty straight up racist to me, It was a long time ago, and he may have changed his opinion since then, but that interview did nothing to improve my opinion of Liam Neeson.
Wait, how is it racist? Racism is seeing members of another ethnic group as inferior or evil. That's not what he was talking about.

Seeing someone you hate in people who share some characteristic with them is irrational but quite human. If the attacker had had red hair, the effect might've been the same.

Just because something involves a black person doesn't make it racist.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:47 AM   #27
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,960
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't know how "long ago" this was. But in my opinion, people do a lot of things, especially when they are young, that they later come to regret. If he had actually killed someone then this would have consequences that can't be washed away, but in his case he is merely confessing to have harboured thoughts that, through moral luck, he had never acted on. As a result, I don't have any problem with him talking about how he was irrational once, given that what he thinks now is what matters. Does he think, for example, that he was right or wrong? Does he think he can pass on these lessons of realizing he was wrong to others he is responsible for instructing such as any children he may have or who he may teach etc...?
That's what I thought was missing from what little I've seen in all this. There's a lesson to be learned from his own reactions - that it's quite possible for us all, under sufficient pressure of stress or grief, to find ourselves doing, or wanting to do, things that in more balanced and rational times we would think quite abhorrent - but it's not clear to me that Neeson recognises that the lesson is there to be learned.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right

Last edited by Dave Rogers; 5th February 2019 at 07:54 AM.
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:48 AM   #28
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,545
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Of course it was a racist plan. That is a given (see thread title).

Before this gets all sidetracked, the question is: can you become temporarily and irrationally racist when in torment, or does something like this bring to the surface your 'true feelings'?
I suspect it was, to some extent, his "true feelings".

Considering when and where he grew up, finding some unknown from group 'A' had done something to someone in your group, getting revenge by targetting anyone from group 'A' was not unheard of.

That's the true feelings...
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:48 AM   #29
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,956
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Do you normally say 'black bastard' when you mean 'black man'?
No, but people do. Especially racist people. Have you never heard anyone say, "black bastard"?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:50 AM   #30
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,989
Monty Python referred to Belgians as Fat Belgian Bastards in one of the game show skits.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:52 AM   #31
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,956
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wait, how is it racist? Racism is seeing members of another ethnic group as inferior or evil.
Or just hating them, or killing them because of the colour of their skin. That's pretty much straight up racist in my book.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:57 AM   #32
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,758
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Of course it was a racist plan. That is a given (see thread title).

Before this gets all sidetracked, the question is: can you become temporarily and irrationally racist when in torment, or does something like this bring to the surface your 'true feelings'?
I'm not even sure we have something like 'true feelings'.

I'd say that it's perfectly possible to be reminded of a traumatic experience by someone that kind of looks like the perpetrator and get irrationally angry at an innocent person, and at the same be ashamed because you realise that that's unreasonable and not a good way to act towards strangers. People are good at compartmentalization. I think both feelings are equally true.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:57 AM   #33
Guybrush Threepwood
Trainee Pirate
 
Guybrush Threepwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: An Uaimh
Posts: 2,616
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wait, how is it racist? Racism is seeing members of another ethnic group as inferior or evil. That's not what he was talking about.

Seeing someone you hate in people who share some characteristic with them is irrational but quite human. If the attacker had had red hair, the effect might've been the same.

Just because something involves a black person doesn't make it racist.
It's racist because he wanted to kill someone, solely based on their race.
Guybrush Threepwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 07:59 AM   #34
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,559
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
It's racist because he wanted to kill someone, solely based on their race.
That's not what racism is.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 08:00 AM   #35
Stacko
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,837
It's cool to see someone construct a definition of racism that excludes lynchings.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 08:01 AM   #36
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,786
Has it been pointed out that his plan was also quite sexist? A woman picking a fight with him so he could kill her should have been able to satisfy his desire for revenge just as well.
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 08:04 AM   #37
Guybrush Threepwood
Trainee Pirate
 
Guybrush Threepwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: An Uaimh
Posts: 2,616
Also here is a transcript of that section of the interview.

Originally Posted by Liam Neeson in the Daily Mirror
I'm not going to use any names, but I was away, and I came back. And she told me she had been raped.

But she handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way.

But my immediate reaction was...

I asked, did she know who it was? No.

What colour were they? She said it was a black person.

I've gone up and down areas with a cosh hoping I'd be approached by somebody.

I'm ashamed to say that. And I did it for maybe a week, hoping some black b*****d would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, y'know?

So that I could... kill him.
He seems to have focused on the colour of the assailant being a key aspect pretty damned quick. That could be just him compressing the narrative to fit in the interview better but still.

I don't think he should be tarred and feathered or shunned, but I now think he's a bigger dick than I used to. And more of a racist dick.
Guybrush Threepwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 08:04 AM   #38
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,555
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Has it been pointed out that his plan was also quite sexist? A woman picking a fight with him so he could kill her should have been able to satisfy his desire for revenge just as well.
I once got sooooooooooooo much crap for suggesting the very idea that "Women's Shelters" were morally equivalent to setting up "White Shelters" for people who were victims of crime with black perpetrators.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 08:05 AM   #39
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,572
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't know how "long ago" this was. But in my opinion, people do a lot of things, especially when they are young, that they later come to regret. If he had actually killed someone then this would have consequences that can't be washed away, but in his case he is merely confessing to have harboured thoughts that, through moral luck, he had never acted on. As a result, I don't have any problem with him talking about how he was irrational once, given that what he thinks now is what matters.
It wasn't just thoughts. He roamed the streets with a crowbar hoping to have a black guy start something that he would finish. This was action, premeditated and sustained for a week or so.

Quote:
Does he think, for example, that he was right or wrong? Does he think he can pass on these lessons of realizing he was wrong to others he is responsible for instructing such as any children he may have or who he may teach etc...?
He adamantly acknowledges it was wrong, on every level. I think he was saying that we can go to a very dark place more easily than we might think ourselves capable of.

When I have been at extremes, I would think I would go 'papa bear' and attack the guilty. But looking back, I have always gone 'mama bear' and tried to protect others first. So Neeson's admission is making me wonder a little about what extremes do for different people.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2019, 08:05 AM   #40
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,718
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah it's racist. To be fair it's a man admitting to a moment of racism in the past and that is certainly a factor, but you can't argue the initial thought isn't racist.

We have to maintain a balance between treating "racism" no matter how fleeting and how much time as passed since it as a sin one can never hope to recover from and sticking our head in the sand and pretending that in and off itself it's not racism.
Er no. It wasn't one of those momentary flashes of irrationality all non psychopath humans can have. He specifically asked what colour the attacker was, then armed himself with a weapon and went around for at least a week looking for someone to use it on.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:49 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.