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Old 10th February 2019, 03:03 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
By that measure I guess calling someone a JAP is okay


Yes, in a place where the word doesn't have racist connotations for the people being addressed.
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Old 10th February 2019, 03:57 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post


Yes, in a place where the word doesn't have racist connotations for the people being addressed.
In the 80s there was a movement ti replace offensive names on roads, streets, etc. I lived in a town where there was a road called Jap Lake Road. The name got changed to Hidden Valley Road. The loudest voice against the change came from the Japanese family who owned the hog farm at the end of the road and for who the road was named for.
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Old 10th February 2019, 06:01 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post


Yes, in a place where the word doesn't have racist connotations for the people being addressed.
How about Slants instead?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...demark-dispute
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Old 10th February 2019, 07:01 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? Don't forget to have some pants on your head when you refer to someone as a 'Paki'.
Think your reaching there

Certainly in Aus I know people consider "paki" not offensive and that includes Pakistanis.

Think it was in the UK, when I was living there

Here in NZ it's a bit 50/50 I think after conversations I have had

At the end of the day it is slang for the country of origin, not the person. It is not like the "N" word which refers to the individual themselves.

You might as well say "Aussie", "Kiwi", "Pom" are all horribly racist.

And frankly if some idiots starts finding Kiwi offensive, I'm moving to the moon.
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Old 11th February 2019, 01:51 AM   #445
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It is odd how the obvious shortening of a long word has taken on racist overtones.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:19 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is odd how the obvious shortening of a long word has taken on racist overtones.
TBF

I don't think most usually use the word in Aus or NZ unless it is in relation to the Pakistan cricket team playing us.

So they are kind of referring to a shorten form of the country team name.

As in rugby we are playing "the Aussies", "The Poms", "The Saffers (South Africa)", "The Pakis", "The All Blacks (We get a special cool one in rugby) , "The Canooks", "The Scots" ......yadda yadda yadda.

Where as in the UK it was actually used in association with violence and racism
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:32 AM   #447
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I remember the term Paki being used as a descriptive and as an offensive term, depending on context, for as long as I have lived. Go to the Paki shop, or he is a Paki (as opposed to an Indian) was the descriptive. The offensive version had to be followed by another term, such as bastard, so as it was now abuse.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:57 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I remember the term Paki being used as a descriptive and as an offensive term, depending on context, for as long as I have lived. Go to the Paki shop, or he is a Paki (as opposed to an Indian) was the descriptive. The offensive version had to be followed by another term, such as bastard, so as it was now abuse.
In the NW in the 80s everybody used the term 'Paki'. It was no different to saying 'Polish' or 'Turkish'. I occasionally visit the area now and nothing appears to have changed in that regard.
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:36 AM   #449
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I wonder if James Woods would get the benefit of the doubt if he said this
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:38 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I wonder if James Woods would get the benefit of the doubt if he said this
Well, he makes terrible movies, so no.
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:42 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, he makes terrible movies, so no.
LOL, are you actually trying to say Liam Neeson has made great movies? Including his most recent?

Guess who's been nominated and won more Awards?

I put the movie Salvador up against anything Liam Neeson has ever done.

The best thing I saw Liam Neeson is was a live Play version of The Crucible he was actually quite good in that.
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:52 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
How about it? You do understand how language works, don't you?
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:53 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
LOL, are you actually trying to say Liam Neeson has made great movies?
Wow, that went right over your head, didn't it?
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:00 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is odd how the obvious shortening of a long word has taken on racist overtones.
It's not odd considering the usage of the term.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:16 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
This feels a lot like those guys who insist that Paki isn't racist because its only a short version of Pakistani and is therefore equivalent to Brit. It isn't. Everyone knows that.
Does it feel like that? That would be odd, that's certainly not something I'd insist. That particular abbreviation clearly has a long history as a racist insult he UK, so to try to argue otherwise is beyond dumb.

Quote:
Equally the phrase black bastard is not equivalent to saying fat bastard tall bastard or speccy bastard
No, it's not equivalent in everyday use, but that wasn't my point. If someone calls someone else a "[something] bastard" in the heat of an argument, few people would interpret it as being a sudden clear window into their soul/psyche/true nature/whatever, if that [something] is a reference to anything other than race.

I recall once standing at a bus stop in Leeds, and some guy came stomping up the road, clearly spoiling for a fight. A momentary glance at him was enough for this "fat bastard" to be offered out, before he moved on to the next bus stop, and asked a "black bastard" if he was looking for trouble, as well. The guy obviously wanted a reaction from someone, and just chose which buttons to press accordingly.

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Old 11th February 2019, 06:23 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post


Yes, in a place where the word doesn't have racist connotations for the people being addressed.
I'm not 100% certain, but I'm fairly confident that when the word "JAP" was introduced to the dialog, the poster's intention was not to refer to a shortened form of "Japanese". The use of all caps suggests to me that he was instead referring to the acronym for "Jewish American Princess".


I might be wrong.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:06 AM   #457
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I remember a comedian (might have been CK) years ago doing a bit about the word "Jew," and how if you say it with the right inflection, it kind of turns into a slur. He was being tongue-in-cheek, of course, but he's not wrong. "That guy's a real Jew."

Basically, words are just words, and we use them for our purposes. Calling someone a black bastard is calling attention to two things - the person's race, and some other negative quality about them (whatever "bastard" means to you - to me, it's basically a synonym for dick, but some people still think of the original meaning). So if you call someone a black bastard, you're insulting them while bringing their race into it. Which heavily implies you're insulting that factor about them as well.

That was a bit rambly, but I hope it made a kind of sense. What I'm trying to say is, it doesn't really matter what could officially fit on a list of "slurs." I'm not sure such lists are even helpful. Just, when you bring someone's race into the act of insulting them, you're making their race part of the insult. You just are. Only you (general you) know why you're doing it, but it sounds like you're doing it to be "racist." (I put it in scare quotes because I really don't want to quibble definitions with anybody.)
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Old 11th February 2019, 09:04 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I have to wonder if Liam Neeson had told the story but omitted the race part how people would have reacted. In other words, he explained that he wandered the streets with a crowbar hoping to be attacked so that he could beat someone to death with a crowbar.

"Oh. All right then. No problem. As long as you were following federal diversity guidelines when looking for people to beat to death."

Actually, they probably would have called him racist, because everyone knows that anti-crime rhetoric is a dog whistle for anti-minority rhetoric.
Yup. I think people would have definitely thought "Hey, that's quite an aggressive reaction, but I guess if someone raped a dear friend of mine, that could be me". But throw the "black" word around, and everyone starts taking out the torches and pitchforks.
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Old 11th February 2019, 09:06 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I remember a comedian (might have been CK) years ago doing a bit about the word "Jew," and how if you say it with the right inflection, it kind of turns into a slur. He was being tongue-in-cheek, of course, but he's not wrong. "That guy's a real Jew."

That totally sounds like it was Ck.

On a side note, here's a brilliantly hilarious bit by Doug Stanhope on the same word:

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Old 11th February 2019, 09:17 AM   #460
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Its a skeptic forum, so I'll point out that Neeson is almost certainly wrong about the details of this memory. It could quite literally have been something as little as being really mad for a bit and thinking he wanted to have some black guy start a fight with him for a day or so with out actually action out on it. Its hard to imagine it being much worse than he recalls without him going to prison though.
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:31 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Its a skeptic forum, so I'll point out that Neeson is almost certainly wrong about the details of this memory. It could quite literally have been something as little as being really mad for a bit and thinking he wanted to have some black guy start a fight with him for a day or so with out actually action out on it. Its hard to imagine it being much worse than he recalls without him going to prison though.
Indeed; that's why I said this, earlier:

Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Bollocks.

The only possible racism I can see is if the reason he asked the colour of the rapist was because he assumed they must be black, and we simply don't have enough information to judge that, only his retelling of a conversation from 40 years ago. I don't think his account of that is supposed to be verbatim, and even if he claimed that I'd be surprised if it were accurate.
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:34 AM   #462
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Who lies about being racist
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:38 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Who lies about being racist
Since its a skeptic forum, it doesn't have to be a lie for it to be wrong.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:29 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
How can a word be racist? It doesn't even make sense to argue that.

Wow. I might as well just start reading conservative treehouse instead of this forum.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:03 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Who lies about being racist
Who said he was lying? You have a very strange way of viewing things. It is unlikely that he recalls exactly what he said or even did, and so some of the conclusions some people seem to be coming based on the order he asked questions, for example, are pretty much pointless.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:25 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Wow. I might as well just start reading conservative treehouse instead of this forum.
Please do, and don't forget the 'instead of'.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:23 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
In the NW in the 80s everybody used the term 'Paki'. It was no different to saying 'Polish' or 'Turkish'. I occasionally visit the area now and nothing appears to have changed in that regard.
Whilst to you this might seem tame, it is not necessarily so to the person it is aimed at.

This came home to me when I saw an article about how Chinese Takeaways really hated being referred to as 'the Chinese'.

<shrug>
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:47 PM   #468
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Back on topic

May have been mentioned, but the interview doesn't seem to have done much to his movie making cash

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-47196786
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:04 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I have to wonder if Liam Neeson had told the story but omitted the race part how people would have reacted. In other words, he explained that he wandered the streets with a crowbar hoping to be attacked so that he could beat someone to death with a crowbar.
A lot of people would still point out that it's messed up, and puts a burden on (many) women not to discuss any sort of sexual assault with him. The racial dimension certainly adds to it, given how often we see people just flat-out lie about how the big scary superthug black guy just had to be shot to stop their wild attack, as well as the black thug looking to rape the poor weak white women.

Yeah, the reaction will be different if you add 150 years of racist crap to your story about how you were prowling the streets looking to murder someone. And I think that's fair.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:58 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's not odd considering the usage of the term.
So, why is someone being called a Pole or a Turk rather than Polish or Turkish not offensive?
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Old 12th February 2019, 02:47 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
A lot of people would still point out that it's messed up, and puts a burden on (many) women not to discuss any sort of sexual assault with him. The racial dimension certainly adds to it, given how often we see people just flat-out lie about how the big scary superthug black guy just had to be shot to stop their wild attack, as well as the black thug looking to rape the poor weak white women.

Yeah, the reaction will be different if you add 150 years of racist crap to your story about how you were prowling the streets looking to murder someone. And I think that's fair.
Not sure of your point here.

How many female friends does Neeson have that would avoid discussing their sexual assaults with him because of this?
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Old 12th February 2019, 05:09 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
A lot of people would still point out that it's messed up, and puts a burden on (many) women not to discuss any sort of sexual assault with him. The racial dimension certainly adds to it, given how often we see people just flat-out lie about how the big scary superthug black guy just had to be shot to stop their wild attack, as well as the black thug looking to rape the poor weak white women.



Yeah, the reaction will be different if you add 150 years of racist crap to your story about how you were prowling the streets looking to murder someone. And I think that's fair.
Have to remember we aren't talking about this from a USA perspective, UK history of racism is very, very different to the USA.
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Old 12th February 2019, 05:58 AM   #473
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Very, very different ... how exactly, in this context?
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Old 12th February 2019, 05:59 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Not sure of your point here.

How many female friends does Neeson have that would avoid discussing their sexual assaults with him because of this?
Simply put, taking "revenge" on a random person for having the same skin colors someone who sexually assaulted a friend, means that he can't be told that fact, or anything else likely to anger him, because he is obviously out of control.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have to remember we aren't talking about this from a USA perspective, UK history of racism is very, very different to the USA.
Unfortunately for him, he often works in US films, so he doesn't get to just state that and have everyone nod and agree.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:32 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
In the NW in the 80s everybody used the term 'Paki'. It was no different to saying 'Polish' or 'Turkish'. I occasionally visit the area now and nothing appears to have changed in that regard.
If by NW you're talking about places like Liverpool, then Jimmy McGovern begs to differ if this episode of Cracker is anything to go by. Robert Carlyle plays a working class, Rednose Guardian Reader who "takes the redpill"...

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Old 12th February 2019, 07:41 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If by NW you're talking about places like Liverpool, then Jimmy McGovern begs to differ if this episode of Cracker is anything to go by. Robert Carlyle plays a working class, Rednose Guardian Reader who "takes the redpill"...

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I didn't say everyone liked it, I said it was commonly used, and still is.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:43 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Simply put, taking "revenge" on a random person for having the same skin colors someone who sexually assaulted a friend, means that he can't be told that fact, or anything else likely to anger him, because he is obviously out of control.
The one sexual assault survivor that i know very, very well would beg to differ with you.

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Unfortunately for him, he often works in US films, so he doesn't get to just state that and have everyone nod and agree.
I think this will probably help him. There is a huge push back against PC whiners at the moment and his film seems to be riding that wave.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:44 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I didn't say everyone liked it, I said it was commonly used, and still is.
But it seems to be regarded as a racial slur, and not just like saying "Polish" or "Turkish".
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:35 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
But it seems to be regarded as a racial slur, and not just like saying "Polish" or "Turkish".
It depends on the region, and the way it's said. Where I live now it would be seen as that by probably most people. Where I used to live, north of Manchester, it depends on the context although, to be fair, it might be more accurate to say that nobody really cares. The division between Pakistanis and whites (or more accurately Pakistanis and non-Pakistanis) is almost total.
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Old 13th February 2019, 04:34 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Simply put, taking "revenge" on a random person for having the same skin colors someone who sexually assaulted a friend, means that he can't be told that fact, or anything else likely to anger him, because he is obviously out of control.



Unfortunately for him, he often works in US films, so he doesn't get to just state that and have everyone nod and agree.
Neeson was not out to find any old black person for random revenge. He made it clear he was looking only for someone who was aggressive towards him.
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