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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , global warming , green energy issues

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Old 7th February 2019, 04:09 PM   #41
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
No. Without the internal combustion engine, what building supplies are to be used? Mining for steel and aluminum would be impossible using only wind and solar. Lumber would be obsolete. Shipping the supplies would also be impossible. Is the plan to first retrofit every building then eliminate the combustion engine? Think of the carbon footprint left behind from this massive task.
Why would mining be impossible?
Why would Lumber be obsolete?
Why would shipping supplies be impossible?

Most retrofitting of buildings to make them energy efficient is adding insulation, double glazing, and energy beneficence lighting and appliances. Why would this be so hard?
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Old 7th February 2019, 04:45 PM   #42
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She is no surprise, given the relentless propaganda in the government schools, the media, and entertainment industries.

She has been manufactured, by the millions.

She is also no surprise given the democratic party's abandonment of the working class - it's spite for them.
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Old 7th February 2019, 04:49 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
She is no surprise, given the relentless propaganda in the government schools, the media, and entertainment industries.

She has been manufactured, by the millions.

She is also no surprise given the democratic party's abandonment of the working class - it's spite for them.
When you have something to offer other the usual "Down WIth The Establishement" tripe, we might have something to dicsuss.
Amusing how in your world every politician is manufactured except for Trump.
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Old 7th February 2019, 04:52 PM   #44
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Looks like Art of the Deal to me.

Ask for the sky, and let it get whittled down to what is feasible.

Great way to get the conversation moving for anyone who is interested in offering solutions instead of derision.

Of course, from those who think climate change is a liberal lie, I guess derision is to be expected.
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Old 7th February 2019, 05:01 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Looks like Art of the Deal to me.

Ask for the sky, and let it get whittled down to what is feasible.

Great way to get the conversation moving for anyone who is interested in offering solutions instead of derision.

Of course, from those who think climate change is a liberal lie, I guess derision is to be expected.
Yeah, but it's AOC. That's only acceptable if the Orange Turd does it, then it's genius!
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Old 7th February 2019, 05:31 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Looks like Art of the Deal to me.

Ask for the sky, and let it get whittled down to what is feasible.

Great way to get the conversation moving for anyone who is interested in offering solutions instead of derision.

Of course, from those who think climate change is a liberal lie, I guess derision is to be expected.
I have derision for the climate change deniers, but also dersion for some of the individual proposols in TNGD.
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Old 7th February 2019, 05:59 PM   #47
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It's an interesting mix of achievable, plausible but stretching, and "what the".

In essence, it's no different to any other US politician (or any politician) setting a vision - except that this time the content is not treading the same old boards - and I think that's what is generating the attention.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:04 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Looks like Art of the Deal to me.

Ask for the sky, and let it get whittled down to what is feasible.
The only thing that is feasible in the time frame they propose is nuclear power, but they have expressly ruled out nukes. This is not a serious proposal, it's a cruel joke. It's the usual happy horsecrap about we can convert to solar and electric vehicles and not sacrifice a bit because all the improvements will boost the economy. And don't worry about the cost we can create banks to finance it.

Oh, and that part about not having to sacrifice a bit? They were just kidding. You're going to have to get used to taking trains if you want to travel long distance, and don't bother trying to order a burger--the farting cows are all gone.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It would appear that this thread is for the purpose of ridiculing the idiotic green plan foisted by wildly out of touch lunatics this morning.

But as for myself, i adhere to a three part plan:

1. Nukes, nukes and more nukes.
.
I always find this funny coming from "small government" Republicans.

Nuclear is the biggest of "big government" energy solutions. Government pays for all the fundamental research to the tune of billions of $ each year. Government does all the underwriting because no insurance company can deal with the potential property damage. Government finances the projects because the up front costs are too high to finance privately.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:56 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have derision for the climate change deniers, but also dersion for some of the individual proposols in TNGD.
Yeah parts of it are pretty bad, but it's not necessarily worse than many terrible ideas widely accepted by Republicans. I'm less inclined to focus on fringe left wing ideas that call for using the Fed to "pay for it" when the sitting Republican President is actively trying to push to politicize it's monetary policies. Equally terrible ideas, but the latter is decidedly mainstream and a real issue right now.
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The only thing that is feasible in the time frame they propose is nuclear power
An ~20X increase in Nuclear power is not feasible in any foreseeable time frame. It's not economically feasible either in terms of financing or manufacturing and it's not technically feasible with current or next gen reactor technology.

There is research into reactor technologies that satisfy the last requirement somewhat but these are not even on the road-map for production ready technology yet so it's impossible to even begin assessing their economic viability yet.
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:38 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The total dismissal of Nuclear Power is pure pandering to all the ex hippies out there.
I think the enviormental movment made a huge mistake in it's rejection of nuclear power. Totally based on "Nuclear is BAD" rather then any real reasoning.
Of course, nuclear power has its risks and downsides, but that's why we have regulation. Over-regulation, mind you, has made the sector very expensive, downright unprofitable, even. The issue is mostly political, though the fission technologies we developed during WWII aren't necessarily the best for our modern needs. There's just no will to push this one further. Fusion, moreso, but it has its own issues. Regardless I think fission's still our best option, until such a time as solar becomes a real powerhouse, if ever.
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:52 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I always find this funny coming from "small government" Republicans.

Nuclear is the biggest of "big government" energy solutions. Government pays for all the fundamental research to the tune of billions of $ each year. Government does all the underwriting because no insurance company can deal with the potential property damage. Government finances the projects because the up front costs are too high to finance privately.
That would indeed be funny, if this thread were not about the single most idiotic plan in human history that contains such nuggets as:

Guaranteed income for people who do not want to work.
Retrofitting every ******* structure in the Untited States.

Although complaining about fundamental research to the tune of billions of dollars a year demonstrates a next level ignorance of economics. It is cool, farting cows are the REAL problem.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:10 PM   #54
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Fine, fine, everyone have a laugh at it.

Now. If it's so bad, provide a better plan that will produce better results. Apart from Soylent Green and burning the poor to keep the rich warm, of course.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:22 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
if this thread were not about the single most idiotic plan in human history
No that would be the plan to balance the budget by cutting taxes...

It's not a good plan, but it's no worse than the nonsense mainstream Republicans accept on a regular basis. The major difference is Republican nonsense has enough support that it has a chance to actually become policy, which makes it a bigger problem.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:27 PM   #56
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My mother posts Trump support all the time and she's terrified of nuclear power. It's not a left-right issue.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:27 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Fine, fine, everyone have a laugh at it.

Now. If it's so bad, provide a better plan that will produce better results. Apart from Soylent Green and burning the poor to keep the rich warm, of course.
The status quo is already a better plan.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:31 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
No that would be the plan to balance the budget by cutting taxes...

It's not a good plan, but it's no worse than the nonsense mainstream Republicans accept on a regular basis. The major difference is Republican nonsense has enough support that it has a chance to actually become policy, which makes it a bigger problem.
No, it is literally the dumbest ******* plan in human history.

These lunatics want to retrofit or rebuild every structure in the United States.

Put aside the cost, put aside the disruption, put aside the waste, and riddle me this: just how in the **** do these brain dead future totalitarian asshats intend to enforce this policy?

They want to build a train system that would completely replace airlines, never mind you know the people, animals, wildlife, crops that are already there?

For Christ sake even Nancy Pelosi took one look at this pot smoke hilarious freak show and rolled her eyes, calling it a green dream.
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:36 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You missed the hilarity of the farting cows!

Sen Mazie Hirono (D-HI) on Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal & trying to cut down on air air travel. “That would be pretty hard for Hawaii”

When Crazy Mazie think your plan is crazy... well....
Just build a bridge to Hawaii.

(any fans of Bojack Horseman?)
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:02 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Fine, fine, everyone have a laugh at it.

Now. If it's so bad, provide a better plan that will produce better results. Apart from Soylent Green and burning the poor to keep the rich warm, of course.
The status quo will produce a better result than this plan. That’s how bad it is.
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:47 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
1. Nukes, nukes and more nukes.
After 11 years and almost 29,000 posts, you have finally posted something that makes sense.

I am a "green"; I support both Greenpeace and SSCS. However, I am one of a growing number of "greens" who do not agree with their official stance on nuclear power. It may come as a surprise to some, but there are a considerable number of environmentalists who are not opposed to Nuclear power. Further, IMO, most of those who are opposed are very likely ignorant of the advances in technology in recent times. The "nuclear radiation boogeyman" is a left over from the anti-nuke hippie days of the 1970s.

"Why I changed my mind about nuclear power | Michael Shellenberger | TEDxBerlin" (this YouTube video is about 20 minutes - every minute is worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciStnd9Y2ak

There has in fact, not been a serious accident (level 6 or higher) attributed to human error in the last 32 years (Chernobyl was the last). Reactor design and been improved and refined dramatically over the last 30 years, along with vastly improved safety systems. Accidents like Fukushima (caused by an earthquake and a tsunami) will never be preventable; the mistake there was even siting a Nuclear Power Plant so close to the sea, in a high risk earthquake zone.

It is an undeniable fact that nuclear power saves many, many more lives than it takes. In over 60 years of nuclear power plant operations, less than 7,000 people have died due to nuclear accidents, 6000 of which probably died as a result of a badly mismanaged nuclear accident in the Mayak, Ozyorsk and Chelyabinsk Oblast regions of the USSR in 1957. That is about 116 per year. By comparison, at least 18 million people annually die world wide from the effects of air pollution, mostly caused by coal and oil fired power plants and internal combustion engines.

With modern reactor design, there is no reason why nuclear power would not be a safe, clean energy supply. Designers and engineers need to be mindful of where they are built.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHO1ebNxhVI
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Old 8th February 2019, 01:55 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The status quo is already a better plan.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The status quo will produce a better result than this plan. That’s how bad it is.
Really? This plan would result in coastal areas being flooded, food bowls turning into dust bowls, increase massive flooding, produce bigger and more powerful hurricanes and storms, destroy the coral reefs worldwide, devastate fish stocks, greatly increase the range of tropical diseases, and potentially spark the next great extinction?
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Old 8th February 2019, 02:10 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Really? This plan would result in coastal areas being flooded, food bowls turning into dust bowls, increase massive flooding, produce bigger and more powerful hurricanes and storms, destroy the coral reefs worldwide, devastate fish stocks, greatly increase the range of tropical diseases, and potentially spark the next great extinction.... including humans?
FTFY
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Old 8th February 2019, 02:13 AM   #64
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I don't see why this should be a left-right issue... Climate is changing and we need to act.
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Old 8th February 2019, 02:56 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I don't see why this should be a left-right issue... Climate is changing and we need to act.
Here's another thing that really annoys me... the people who argue that climate change is not being caused by human activity....

IT. DOESN'T. MATTER!!

Even if climate change was some natural phenomena unrelated to human activity, its still changing, and the rate at which it is changing will see the planet unlivable in a very short time!
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Old 8th February 2019, 03:05 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Accidents like Fukushima (caused by an earthquake and a tsunami) will never be preventable; the mistake there was even siting a Nuclear Power Plant so close to the sea, in a high risk earthquake zone.
The problem is that this is what has been burned into the public psyche, and so this is why it is seen as bad, bad, bad. It's hard to undo that, even if you point out how bad other forms of generation are overall.
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Old 8th February 2019, 03:09 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I don't see why this should be a left-right issue... Climate is changing and we need to act.
It's rather amazing really. Very much head in the sand behaviour. I will admit that I was skeptical about climate change initially, but I looked at both sides and now I am firmly in the camp of if we don't do something now and do it well, this world is going to be getting a new dominate life-form once it recovers in a few million years.
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Old 8th February 2019, 03:14 AM   #68
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If climate change were caused by something we could fight, we'd all band together in no time.
But changing the way we live? Not so easy to find support for.

(bit of armchair psychology here, but is that why the climate skeptic movement tends to skew conservative, and why it's rarely conservative politicians advocating action?
If they'd have to admit it's all real, there'd be too much change too fast? The opposite of conservatism)
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:47 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Fine, fine, everyone have a laugh at it.

Now. If it's so bad, provide a better plan that will produce better results. Apart from Soylent Green and burning the poor to keep the rich warm, of course.

As Terry said, give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. It could work.
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Old 8th February 2019, 05:07 AM   #70
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Is this the Onion?
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Old 8th February 2019, 05:24 AM   #71
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I'd say the biggest problem with nuclear reactors is that we still don't know how to get rid of the waste.

A couple of years back the company I worked for had was tasked with setting up a party on-site in celebration of having finished their new radioactive waste containment. The engineers there were reportedly laughing and joking about the previous generation of engineers who had built the previous containment unit, which was coming to the end of its life. The key point of mockery was that they had implemented the design as a temporary measure with no plan for what to do with the waste afterwards, assuming that the next generation would come up with a solution. Of course, the problem didn't get addressed until it needed to, and the solution was just to build another temporary facility.

When one of my colleagues asked an engineer what their plan was for when the new facility became non-viable in a couple of decades, he got the answer that they didn't have one, but it didn't matter because the next generation of engineers would have solved the problem by then...

I understand the arguments for nuclear power, and I'm supportive of much of it, but someone needs to take responsibility for the nuclear waste and figure out some method of safely disposing of it.
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Old 8th February 2019, 05:54 AM   #72
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LOL Alexandria has already pulled the new green deal from her website
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Old 8th February 2019, 05:58 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Ask for the sky, and let it get whittled down to what is feasible.
Yeah but if you take that too far, no one will offer a compromise, instead considering you a loon.

Like, if you have a house and you want to sell it for 250K you might start asking 300K, but not 12 million.
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Old 8th February 2019, 06:17 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That would indeed be funny, if this thread were not about the single most idiotic plan in human history that contains such nuggets as:

Guaranteed income for people who do not want to work.
Retrofitting every ******* structure in the Untited States.

Although complaining about fundamental research to the tune of billions of dollars a year demonstrates a next level ignorance of economics. It is cool, farting cows are the REAL problem.
To be fair, too much livestock IS a problem.
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Old 8th February 2019, 06:19 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The status quo is already a better plan.
Not sure a 4-5 degree increase in global temperatures is a better plan than anything, up to and including blasting ourselves back to the stone age.
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Old 8th February 2019, 06:23 AM   #76
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Last year, a fellow was making the rounds of the NPR talk shows, and Science Friday.... Touting the idea of the “Smart Grid” which sounds a whole lot more feasible than the GND...

Essentially localized power production, primarily solar and wind, with heavily computerized control systems that could direct power to use-points as needed.

One of the advantages of this is that large numbers of jobs would be created for installers and such, mostly blue-collar.

Of course, this seems to have dropped off the radar.....
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Old 8th February 2019, 06:29 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In over 60 years of nuclear power plant operations, less than 7,000 people have died due to nuclear accidents
Even that number may be exaggerated, due to extrapolated unknowns for the Chernobyl accident.
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Old 8th February 2019, 06:32 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'd say the biggest problem with nuclear reactors is that we still don't know how to get rid of the waste.
Sure we do: plonk them in a safe area and wait it out. It's not a problem, except a political one. Of course, were we to pursue other fission technologies, we might develop ones that produce less waste, which is great.

Is coal waste such a problem? It's a much, much, much larger, toxic forever, and ALSO radioactive volume.
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Old 8th February 2019, 07:20 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Here's another thing that really annoys me... the people who argue that climate change is not being caused by human activity....

IT. DOESN'T. MATTER!!

Even if climate change was some natural phenomena unrelated to human activity, its still changing, and the rate at which it is changing will see the planet unlivable in a very short time!

Shortly after I started working at my current job, the head of R&D wrote an article about anthropogenic climate change in the company newsletter. Someone made a post on the company website's anonymous forum complaining about the article on the basis that regardless of what happens to the planet, we will continue to live and thrive as long as God wants us to be here, and the idea that we can have any effect on that is incredible arrogance.
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Old 8th February 2019, 07:22 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Shortly after I started working at my current job, the head of R&D wrote an article about anthropogenic climate change in the company newsletter. Someone made a post on the company website's anonymous forum complaining about the article on the basis that regardless of what happens to the planet, we will continue to live and thrive as long as God wants us to be here, and the idea that we can have any effect on that is incredible arrogance.
Clearly God wants us to **** up the planet.
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