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#161 |
الشيطان الأبيض
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,690
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Only if you don't plan to carry nearly as much usable stored energy, which means a serious drop in range. Batteries just don't have the energy density of a fossil fuel. That's what's been making range such a problem for electric cars all this time.
For example, I'll compare the plain-engine and hybrid versions of the Mitsubishi Outlander (SEL option package) based on the specifications at Mitsubishi's website. The plain version has a 16.6-gallon tank, which, at 27 miles per gallon and 5.91 pounds per gallon, gives it a 448.2-mile range on 98.1 pounds of fuel. The PHEV's tank is only 11.3 gallons (66.8 pounds), but its curb weight is also 827 pounds higher than the plain version's curb weight because of the weight of the battery system, and that gets it a range of 310 miles. A miles-per-pound-of-energy-storage-stuff comparison can't be done from this alone because the PHEV has a smaller engine (meaning the electrical side of the system is more than 827 pounds alone) and some of the extra electrical gear is other parts, not just the batteries, but still, overall, at least a few hundred pounds of that's got to be batteries, and adding all that just cut the range by 138.2 miles. Adding hundreds of pounds of fuel instead would have multiplied the range. |
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#162 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,023
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ETA: I see you edited this out of your comment, but...
This isn't actually quite true. An aircraft's engines don't keep it airborne directly (with perhaps the exception of a Harrier during vertical take off and landing.) The wings provide the lift and the "hold[ing] all those pounds up". The engines provide the go forward to counter the drag backwards. This is why modern day jet engines are becoming really efficient. The fuel is for the most part being used to run the compressor blades to compress the air which is used to give the thrust. The new engines get about 90% of their thrust from compressing air and then releasing it out the back of the engine, with just 10% of the thrust coming from the expansion of the exhaust gases. However should that thrust stop, a modern plane is pretty good at not just falling out of the sky. A modern airliner has a glide ration of 15:1 up to 20:1. A 777 can make it 210 km from a loss of both engines at 40,000 ft. |
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#163 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,331
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60 million families in the US so 60 million structures for their private homes would be the dominant factor. 10K per building? 600 Billion dollars. Divert 1 year of military budget and it's done in a year. Spread it over a decade and it's less money that Trump has added to the military budget in his two years. |
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REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years. Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life. |
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#164 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,023
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Thing is that it's probably not even that. It's not like the demand is for every home to be a class 8 eco-house. Most modern homes have good insulation, heat pumps for HVAC, a lack of draughts, mostly will have energy efficient appliances, and probably either LED or CFT bulbs. They aren't likely to need a lot of money spent on them.
Likewise, due to the climate in the US, a lot of homes are already set up to retain their heat, and stay cool in summer. Making sure that their insulation is up to code, changing out older inefficient HVAC systems to more modern efficient ones, adding draught stoppers, switching lighting, perhaps adding solar hot water systems as well. There is a new tech coming out that looks like a solar panel but uses space as a heat sink for its radiator and can currently add an extra 15% efficiency to AC units. All of these would dramatically drop the US's electricity usage for hardly any work at all. The problem isn't that it's hard to do, it's convincing people that they need to get off their arses and do it. |
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#165 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#166 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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Someone projects that it will be 65% by 2025, based on what appears to be an exponential curve fit to current data which stops at 6.1%. You think that's even remotely reliable? It isn't. That's guesswork.
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"The Gothenburg-based company will continue to produce pure combustion-engine Volvos from models launched before that date, but said it would introduce cars across its model line-up that ranged from fully electric cars to plug-in hybrids. " They are not going all-electric, not even close. And they're counting hybrids as "electric" even though they use gasoline. And that's a decision that they can easily reverse at any time.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#167 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,023
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That is true, but you know what, From 2013 to 2016 China was decreasing its emisions, true nowhere near the level that the US and EU were, but they had flattened out and started on a downwards trend. Since 2016 and the US pulling out of the Paris Accord, Chinese levels have started to rise again, the most seen in 7 years.
The US is seen as a leader, where they go, others follow. If they turn towards a Green Economy and decreasing Greenhouse gases, then others, including China will follow them, we have already seen that before. |
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#168 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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You seem to be ignorant about how big the United States is. New York to Los Angeles is 2,451 miles. There are a lot of domestic flights longer than 300 miles.
If they can make it work, that would be great. But that's a big if, and even if it does work, it's not magic. And it's not something this Green New Deal can make work either. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#169 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#170 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,023
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__________________
![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#171 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#172 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,116
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What they need is a good speechwriter to turn out slogans like this:
The first thing we do, let's kill all the cows. From each according to his ability or willingness, to each according to his needs. A chicken in every pot, and two bicycles in every garage. Ask not what your country can do for you, other than retrofit your home. |
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#173 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,005
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And not a single mention of reducing the environmental impact of humans by reducing the number of humans. We can build all the solar panels and windmills we want but if we don't force the developing nations to stop destroying the rainforests and put a brake on their out of control breeding, there's no point in "going green." Population control is necessary and sufficient to solve all our environmental problems.
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#174 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1,885
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#175 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#176 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,391
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#177 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,116
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Well, the easiest way would be to come up with some sort of airborne virus that only affects women of child-bearing age and either kills them or makes them infertile. I can't imagine the environmentalists having any problem with that proposal if they're willing to kill all the cows.
#cowslivesmatter |
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#178 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,837
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"żWHAT KIND OF BIRD? żA PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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#179 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,391
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Its a target. Sweden and Swedish companies are veeerrry good at meeting targets.
Read my words.... ALL new models will be electric https://autovistagroup.com/news-and-...ne-development "Essentially, every new car introduced by Volvo from 2019 onwards will have an electric motor, either in the form of a pure electric car, a plug-in or a mild hybrid. Specifically, the plan is to bring five pure electric cars to market between 2019 and 2021 - three Volvo models and two high-performance electric vehicles which will be launched under Volvo’s new standalone performance sub-brand Polestar." "Since Volvo announced that it will cease the development of diesel engines, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) has become the latest manufacturer to suggest it will drop diesel engines from its line-up as the market continues to suffer. This follows similar plans announced by Porsche, PSA Group and Nissan recently and this lack of ICE product will ultimately accelerate the demise of diesel." No. Once a factory retools to build something else, going back and making it again becomes untenable https://www.thejakartapost.com/life/...from-2019.html "A Volvo Cars spokesman said the company would continue to manufacture existing petrol or diesel-only models launched before 2019, but they will gradually be replaced by hybrid and fully electric cars." Now how's that for "reading past the headlines"? I suggest you talk to someone who owns and drives a hybrid, like my oldest daughter. She has owned an Audi A3 E-tron for about 18 months (had Nissan Leaf before that), and has only run it on petrol twice; both times on a 440km return trip to Christchurch last year. Hybrids still reduce the amount of fuel emissions dramatically because most owners run them on electric the vast majority of the time... and why wouldn't they; hybrids are much cheaper to run on electric. |
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#180 |
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,462
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That's pretty much my use case.
I've had mine nearly four years, and only put 20 litres of petrol in it twice per year (because the car requires it to "maintain fuel system"). This gives me a great excuse to visit a friend who lives an hour away. ![]() If there had been an all electric version of my car, I would have bought it, but all the models on the market at the time were too low to the ground for my aching back. Being a four wheel drive with slightly more ground clearance than a regular car is also nice for getting my kayak to where I want to paddle... (Not to mention launching from boat ramps.) |
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We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato. |
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#181 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,391
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__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#182 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,023
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No it wasn't an answer, it was calling out your begging the question that the Paris Accord where meant to stop Climate Change, they weren't, they were supposed to delay Climate Change and in doing so give us longer to find a solution before we reached a tipping point where any possible solution was going to have to be incredibly drastic to avoid the extinction of our species.
By sitting on your butts moaning about the other guy and refusing to take any steps at all because they don't end climate change instantly or because someone might lose their job in an industry that is presently actively destroying the habitable environment of the planet, then you are being a part of the problem, not part of the solution. |
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#183 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,023
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You need to keep up with the thread. There is a lot of scientific research going into creating a grass, or modifying the bacterium in the cow's gut, to reduce the amount of methane that they produce. Your going on about killing the cows is just showing your ignorance about both the issue and the solution.
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#184 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,023
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__________________
![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#185 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,391
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And this represents a genuine, scientific effort on our part to do what we can to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. Its a rural/agricultural thing... its stuff that townies will never understand as long as their arses point downwards.
Because silly catch-phrases and even sillier talking points is all they have to hide their blissful ignorance. |
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#186 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 609
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I know Scotland is a small country and we have different problems and issues from the USA as well as opportunities but in the last decade we have made major strides in renewable energy (https://www.scottishrenewables.com/f...es-in-numbers/). Of course we had a good head start with Hydro Electricity but wind turbines have been going up everywhere (one of the first off-shore operational wind farms opened last year just of the coast at my home city - bonus it is the one that has annoyed Trump because it spoils the view from his golf course!
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I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid. |
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#187 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,153
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Part of the problem is that people are short-sighted and selfish. The best case scenario is that it's difficult to think of 100 years' time as something that's really going to happen, given that we'll all be dead by then. The worst case scenario is that some people simply don't care if it doesn't affect them directly - like the report that Trump was walked through exactly how devastating his $1.5t tax cut was going to be to the economy, but shouted that he didn't care because the consequences were predicted to hit after he left office.
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#188 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,569
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#189 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,569
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#190 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,569
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#191 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,569
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Doctor: "Ok, sir, that tumor is inoperable right now, but with some chemo, we might be able to at least slow it down."
Ziggurat: "Slow it down? Doctor, can you stop it entirely?" Doctor: "Not at this time, no. Perhaps in time." Ziggurat: "Not worth it, then. I'll just keep smoking. In fact, I'll buy an extra pack a day." |
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#192 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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No, Belz, I’m not doing anything of the sort.
Do you get some sort of pleasure out of making straw men? Because it seems like you’re an addict. The logic being used to defend this Green New Deal is that we must do something, this is something, so we must do this. No, it doesn’t work that way. Drinking bleach is worse than no treatment for cancer. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#193 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#194 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 609
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The ideas proposed in the NGD may or may not work out. I see it as a starting point for doing something. The reason the current government of the USA is not in favour of climate change action seems to be based on one of two reasons. Neither of them are because of a reasoned argument or based on scientific evidence. One is Trump made promises about coal and heavy industries like steel production. The other is Christian fundamentalists who think because their god flashed a rainbow across the sky 4500 years ago then everything will be hunky dory. Given those positions I have no problem with a beginning statement from environmentalists even if there are some problems with some of the plan.
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I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid. |
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#195 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#196 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,569
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So why is China's participation in any way relevant to the US'?
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#197 |
الشيطان الأبيض
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,690
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No problem with that; I didn't even mean to delete it! It was just there when I was editing something else.
Lift is drag. It's pushing the air that comes at your face downward instead of letting it slide by. But there's also a second reason why the low-energy-density issue is worse for aircraft than ground vehicles: on the ground, if you don't have enough range, you refuel/recharge/replace on the way. With flight, if you don't have enough range, you just can't go. I didn't even realize that that plane in the picture had a range estimate already. At 300 miles, I'd take a train anyway. |
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#198 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,933
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Because it constrains what's even possible for us to accomplish.
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You are, as always, everything you accuse me of being.
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When you try to mirror an argument back at me, it helps to actually understand the argument. You really need to stop this habit of yours of trying to make disagreements personal. Because you are the one who first made it personal, and it didn't have to be. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#199 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,800
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Uh, maybe it's my agricultural background talking, but folks realize that "killing the cows" is what we raise them for in the first place, right?
If we (or markets) decided that reducing the density of ruminant livestock was a desirable societal endeavor, not one more cow would be killed in the effort than is brought to life now to be killed anyway. In fact, that process would begin with simply breeding fewer and fewer each year until today's breeds exist only in living museum collections of what would become heritage animals to illustrate how farming was done back in the olden days. If you really care about animal welfare – and you had a clue what you were talking about – you would be very much in favor of the GND. |
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#200 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 609
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May I ask then what actions you would propose to start the USA to taking some sort of positive action on climate change? So far your responses in this thread seem to have been naysaying. It won't work so don't try. Genuinely I would be interested in hearing some positive ideas from you rather than negative comments.
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I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid. |
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