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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:41 AM   #2001
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That Dominic Cummings statement in full

"**** off you oiks"
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:43 AM   #2002
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That Dominic Cummings statement in full

"**** off you oiks"
He obvious had someone polish it.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:53 AM   #2003
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Well reasoned argument. Thank you for your contribution, it took the discussion further.

Not in my interest to create arguments to attack your strawmen, if you want a discussion I would suggest you stick to what people have actually argued and try to keep your political bias out of the discussion.

By the way just been listening to Hunt talk about how the UK government did not consider the SK methods of controlling the virus.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:53 AM   #2004
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If the Boris cared about what the UK thinks right now he would be doing the 'briefing' this afternoon not transport secretary Grant Shapps and he would be explaining why he is standing by his man,

He doesn’t work weekends.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:02 AM   #2005
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Asked if he was going to consider resigning following accusations he broke lockdown rules, Dominic Cummings said "obviously not."

He added "You guys are probably as right about that as you are about Brexit, remember how right you were?"

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...thing-11993298
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:42 AM   #2006
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
He doesn’t work weekends.
When exactly does he work? He's done a couple of PMQs and left in basket, well except last week when not sticking his foot in a bucket while his trousers fell down was taken as a victory even if he did a U turn within two hours, and he videotaped his address so that it could be released on a Sunday to avoid scrutiny but not cut into his weekend... Other than that??
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:45 AM   #2007
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Asked if he was going to consider resigning following accusations he broke lockdown rules, Dominic Cummings said "obviously not."

He added "You guys are probably as right about that as you are about Brexit, remember how right you were?"

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...thing-11993298
They say you can't polish a turd, Cummings shiny dome suggests otherwise.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:53 AM   #2008
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Regarding the Regs, there is nothing to say reasonable excuse does not apply to those with symptoms. I quote the Regs because it is easy to see his defence there.

As for advice, he has to obtain care for his child. I think (not knowing all details) he went about it in not the best way. I think it would have been safer for all, that a well person travelled to Cumming's home and then delivered the child to care.

But in neither the law nor the advice are there specifics regarding two parents ill and exactly what they should do.

Compared to Fergusson and Calderwood, Cumming had a reasonable excuse to travel and is not in clear breach of the regs.
The statement released from Downing Street earlier today was:

Quote:
"Owing to his wife being infected with suspected coronavirus and the high likelihood that he would himself become unwell, it was essential for Dominic Cummings to ensure his young child could be properly cared for.

"His sister and nieces had volunteered to help so he went to a house near to but separate from his extended family in case their help was needed.

"His sister shopped for the family and left everything outside."
So if they are telling the truth, he wasn't ill at the time.

Travelling in a car with a small child and a wife with suspected covid 19 infection doesn't seem the best idea.

I find it hard to believe that with a small child and an ill wife, they managed to get from London to Durham without the need of a toilet/rest break or a fuel stop, putting more people at risk.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:02 AM   #2009
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
The statement released from Downing Street earlier today was:



So if they are telling the truth, he wasn't ill at the time.

Travelling in a car with a small child and a wife with suspected covid 19 infection doesn't seem the best idea.

I find it hard to believe that with a small child and an ill wife, they managed to get from London to Durham without the need of a toilet/rest break or a fuel stop, putting more people at risk.
Also, if they believe their actions were reasonable and in line with the guidelines, why did they refuse to comment for seven weeks when asked to clarify what had happened?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...n-must-address
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:47 AM   #2010
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The Guardian is claiming that Cummings was out and about off of mater and pater's estate.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ockdown-claims
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:06 PM   #2011
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Dominic Cummings broke coronavirus lockdown rules for a *second* time with a later trip to Durham.

Quote:
Dominic Cummings ignored coronavirus lockdown rules for a second time to visit his parents more than 250 miles away, the Sunday Mirror can reveal.
Boris Johnson’s top aide was spotted with his wife in Houghall Woods near the family’s Durham home two weeks after the first sighting.
Fellow walkers said they were taken aback to see the Prime Minister’s senior official so far from London at the height of the lockdown on April 19.
The PM’s advisor had been photographed in Downing Street two days earlier after he returned to work from his own brush with the deadly virus. He was pictured there again the following day.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...kdown-22075857
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:08 PM   #2012
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Mirror have been clever, keeping this back until after the reactions to the first trip.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:16 PM   #2013
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Story also coming out that he visited Barnard Castle (market town near Darlington) while supposedly laid up with the virus on his first trip to Durham. Barnard Castle is 30 miles from Durham.

Can't think why he would have gone as both the Three Horseshoes and the Golden Lion would have been closed.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 23rd May 2020 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:17 PM   #2014
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Mirror have been clever, keeping this back until after the reactions to the first trip.
Those nasty people at the Mirror.

Anyone would think they done this on purpose, waiting for him to drop himself in it by lying.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:52 PM   #2015
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Either this is a massive dead cat, or Cummings is so vital to Johnson and the Tory party that he has to be kept at Number 10 at all costs.

If it's a dead cat, what's so important to need such misdirection?

If he's so important then what kind of power does he really have?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 01:30 PM   #2016
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Either this is a massive dead cat, or Cummings is so vital to Johnson and the Tory party that he has to be kept at Number 10 at all costs.

If it's a dead cat, what's so important to need such misdirection?

If he's so important then what kind of power does he really have?
Cummings is nasty but effective, look at the front bench, without Cummings who's left around Johnson that can trusted to do up their shoelaces without tying their feet together and falling head first through a window?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 01:59 PM   #2017
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The Durham police insist they spoke to Cummings' father, despite Downing Street denying that anyone was spoken to by the police.

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/stat...85594970206209
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Old 23rd May 2020, 02:46 PM   #2018
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Story also coming out that he visited Barnard Castle (market town near Darlington) while supposedly laid up with the virus on his first trip to Durham. Barnard Castle is 30 miles from Durham.

Can't think why he would have gone as both the Three Horseshoes and the Golden Lion would have been closed.
I've been trying to sell my late father's house there. I just received a cash offer. Coincidence ?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 02:51 PM   #2019
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Dupe...
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Old 23rd May 2020, 04:10 PM   #2020
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not in my interest to create arguments to attack your strawmen, if you want a discussion I would suggest you stick to what people have actually argued and try to keep your political bias out of the discussion.

By the way just been listening to Hunt talk about how the UK government did not consider the SK methods of controlling the virus.
Please stick to to the argument and do not make comments about the arguer I should not have to remind you not to make ad hominem. You have no idea what my political beliefs are. That I may think that a particular criticism of the government is wrong in fact in relation to pandemic planning, does not mean I support the broad social policy of the government.

That I point out the same (or very similar) policies are followed by parties of a variety of hues across the UK, should demonstrate that this is not a right wing / left wing issue. Certainly the argument here is very anglocentric. No one seems to be interested in criticising the Scottish government for the very high death rate in care homes. No one is asking why the Scottish government stopped contact tracing relatively earlier than in England. Policy failings were broader than just what happened in England. The biggest failings, lack of PPE in national stock piles (North and South) and lack of testing (poorer in Scotland than England) relates to policies that are longstanding and not those of the current government but people here do not seem interested in the real issues just trying to turn it into a party political issue. When I say parties across the spectrum made the same mistakes you seem to think this implies some bias. I am saying that we must not be biased by a particular preconception that errors were due to a left or right bias in the decision makers.

North and South of the border I am worried that governments are getting defensive. They are beginning to be afraid of making decisions because any decision is criticised, there can be no perfect decisions that will prevent any more people from dying. Any decision the government makes will result in deaths. Decision making is becoming increasingly conservative (with a small c).
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Old 23rd May 2020, 04:38 PM   #2021
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I certainly appreciate the rigour in Planigale's posts. I think Boris Johnson is a totally disgraceful politician at every level and to blame for thousands of covid deaths if the buck stops anywhere, but in New Zealand the extraordinary luck propping up Ardern, and her seeming success at covid, masks that otherwise she is a total failure as a prime minister.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 04:58 PM   #2022
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People arriving in France from the UK will have to self-isolate for 14 days from 8 June, the French government has announced.

Quote:
It comes after Home Secretary Priti Patel revealed quarantine plans for visitors to the UK from the same date.

France said it would impose reciprocal measures for any European country enforcing a quarantine.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52781812
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Old 23rd May 2020, 08:08 PM   #2023
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Jacob Rees Mogg weighs in.

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Caring for your child is obviously reasonable. Surely any parent of a three year old would want to ensure they are safe at all times. Politically motivated attacks on a good father are discreditable.
Looks like the official line really is going to be that people who don't break the lockdown rules don't care enough about their family.

I've seen some over-the-top "think of the children" arguments, but for a combination of stupidity, illogic, and sheer gall that one takes the prize.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 08:16 PM   #2024
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
<snip>

Also there is good evidence young children are not a vector for SARS-CoV-2 (unlike flu), so even if the grandparent's had cared for the child the risk would have been low.

<snip>

How current is your information? I used the highlighted phrase as search terms, and got results suggesting the more recent studies are questioning this.

Not that children seem to have a less serious reaction to the virus (at least in general) but that they may well be equally as contagious as adults when they are infected.

In short, while they are in the contagious stages of infection they may shed a similar amount of virus as do adults.

I guess we'll find out a few weeks after the schools start opening back up.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 08:27 PM   #2025
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I've been trying to sell my late father's house there. I just received a cash offer. Coincidence ?
(More suited to the economics thread, but if it's a good offer, I'd advise jumping all over it)
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:17 PM   #2026
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IMO the Dominic Cummings story will be a good indication whether the UK government has learned from the Trump Administration. Any "scandal" can be ridden out if you just brazenly stick to your guns and simply ignore dissenting voices.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:51 PM   #2027
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The Observer isn't pulling any punches.

Quote:
Ministers have set out clear guidelines that it has asked all citizens to abide by in order to protect the NHS and limit the number of deaths. Those guidelines include instructions that anyone in a household where someone has symptoms of Covid-19 should not leave their house for 14 days.

Millions of people have complied with this guidance at huge personal cost. A boy died without his mother by his side; people have been unable to spend time with relatives who have terminal illnesses. There have been missed funerals; babies born who are yet to meet their grandparents; single parents with Covid-19 who have struggled to care for their children while sick; medical and care staff who have moved out of their homes to avoid putting their children at risk. These are sacrifices people have willingly made in order to protect healthcare workers and save lives.

Of course this lockdown has involved unbearably difficult decisions; of course parents have fretted what will happen to their children were they to become seriously ill. But many will have decided that they must comply with the government guidelines. How does it look when it turns out that a senior government adviser decided he was above the rules, and that the possibility he might need childcare help was worth the risk of two adults, infected with coronavirus, travelling hundreds of miles? It reeks of breathtaking arrogance and a callous disregard for the welfare of NHS and care staff.
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Old 24th May 2020, 01:37 AM   #2028
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The thing is, if you have a slogan saying “stay at home, protect the NHS”, you can’t really expect the Tories to stay at home. They’ve been doing their level best to **** the NHS for the last decade.
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Old 24th May 2020, 01:53 AM   #2029
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If the Boris cared about what the UK thinks right now he would be doing the 'briefing' this afternoon not transport secretary Grant Shapps and he would be explaining why he is standing by his man,
It's the press conference equivalent of hiding in a fridge.
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Old 24th May 2020, 02:47 AM   #2030
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
<snip>
No I would equally defend or criticise the same decision made by the Scottish Government which is of a very different hue (Socialist, pro EU, anti Union) from the current Westminster government (right wing, pro Brexit, pro Union), or the Welsh government (Socialist, pro EU?, pro Union). I would give the NI government a pass as they really haven't existed in the recent past.


Edited by Loss Leader:  Quoted post edited to conform.

Last edited by Loss Leader; 24th May 2020 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 24th May 2020, 03:10 AM   #2031
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Grant Shapps on #Marr tying himself in knots now ... he started off by saying that Cummings traveled up on 31st March ... and now he's trying to argue that 12th April is more than 14 days later ... and now he's denying having said 31st March! What a liar!
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Old 24th May 2020, 03:12 AM   #2032
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Marr "Is he going to resign?"
Shapps "No"
There you have it. Even without Shapps knowing the details of the Barnard Castle trip or the second visit Cummings is staying.
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Old 24th May 2020, 03:17 AM   #2033
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I certainly appreciate the rigour in Planigale's posts. I think Boris Johnson is a totally disgraceful politician at every level and to blame for thousands of covid deaths if the buck stops anywhere, but in New Zealand the extraordinary luck propping up Ardern, and her seeming success at covid, masks that otherwise she is a total failure as a prime minister.
The problem is whether Boris Johnson is a disreputable person or not, (and I do think he is an awful person, I did not vote for him for PM, I did not vote for him for Mayor, I did not vote for Brexit) is irrelevant. The decisions made must stand on their own virtue or not. Whilst there is some truth in the 'buck stops here' argument, personalising blame is not an effective way of improving things. I have argued the same thing in the Grenfell fire and the Hillsborough disaster threads. Whilst it satisfies a primitive need for vengeance, individual blame avoids addressing why a disaster happened, and more importantly what can be done to prevent disasters in the future.

We are relatively lucky, Covid-19 has a relatively low mortality, there are far worse viruses out there that are potential pandemics, SARS-CoV-19 might worsen just as the 1918 flu did. A different and more deadly virus might spread next year. It is more important to know why the system failed, if it did? Why did Nicola Sturgeon make the same errors as Boris Johnson?

Posters who seem to think that Johnson was uniquely bad (in this particular issue, not his generalised immorality), are I think displaying a cognitive bias that is anti-Tory. Otherwise why is the post above not Boris Johnson, Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford are to blame for thousands of Covid-19 deaths?

At some state we will hopefully find out what happened in the four nations discussions, and if Johnson put a brake on lockdown that the other three leaders wished to introduce earlier. In which case Johnson / Westminster Tories would be uniquely to blame. Maybe the issue was that getting a four nation consensus was itself the delay, in which case some better constitutional process for rapid decision making in an emergency is needed.
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Old 24th May 2020, 03:20 AM   #2034
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
No I would equally defend or criticise the same decision made by the Scottish Government which is of a very different hue (Socialist, pro EU, anti Union) from the current Westminster government (right wing, pro Brexit, pro Union), or the Welsh government (Socialist, pro EU?, pro Union). I would give the NI government a pass as they really haven't existed in the recent past.

You have repeatedly made claims that people criticising the government policies and actions are because of their political views. You do not seem to understand that people can criticise politicians for what they do rather than their political affiliation. I give not one iota if it is a Tory or Labour politician that is screwing up. It is the screwing up that is the issue. Not saying I won’t use homour when I have a go at their screwups.
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Old 24th May 2020, 03:24 AM   #2035
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How current is your information? I used the highlighted phrase as search terms, and got results suggesting the more recent studies are questioning this.

Not that children seem to have a less serious reaction to the virus (at least in general) but that they may well be equally as contagious as adults when they are infected.

In short, while they are in the contagious stages of infection they may shed a similar amount of virus as do adults.

I guess we'll find out a few weeks after the schools start opening back up.
This is a fair comment. i would accept this (like much to do with covid-19) is somewhat uncertain. My empirical opinion is that unlike flu we have seen no school centred outbreaks which suggests transmission by children is less than by adults.

A nice study is this from an Australian school outbreak
http://ncirs.org.au/sites/default/fi...ril%202020.pdf
Which I think favours my view.
A review that makes several points in favour of your argument is
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01354-0
As ever it concludes as we always say at the end of any scientific paper 'more research is needed'.

I would be happy to debate further but then we should probably go to the covid science and medicine thread?
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Old 24th May 2020, 04:00 AM   #2036
P.J. Denyer
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I think it's a misunderstanding, we saw the speed he fled Downing Street, I think he just kept running all the way to the safety of his parents and his wife had to drive up to coax him out from under the bed!
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Old 24th May 2020, 04:04 AM   #2037
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You have repeatedly made claims that people criticising the government policies and actions are because of their political views. You do not seem to understand that people can criticise politicians for what they do rather than their political affiliation. I give not one iota if it is a Tory or Labour politician that is screwing up. It is the screwing up that is the issue. Not saying I won’t use homour when I have a go at their screwups.
I can accept the argument that the bias is anglocentricism, there are other politicians than Johnson making decisions in the UK. Whilst I accept the case that advisers advise and politicians decide, if the politicians are given bad advice then it may not be their fault the decision is bad. Since Nicola and Boris made similar decisions it may be the advice they were relying on was poor. In many cases it is not the actual decision that is being criticised, but the timing, few here argue against the lockdown, just that it should have been a week? earlier.

Other criticisms such as lack of gowns in the pandemic PPE stockpile were probably never political, and if they were predate the current Johnson government (but probably not the Sturgeon / Salmond government in Scotland). I do not believe any politician was asked "Should we include gowns in the stockpile?".

Lack of testing is probably a consequence of political decisions reflecting a lack of support for industry over decades. This also reflects the lack of resilience in PPE manufacturing.

What I do not blame the government for were decisions made early on when decision making was restricted by a severe lack of testing capacity, I think there was little policy making that would have altered testing capacity at that point. What I am increasingly angry about are decisions on testing that are a hotshot pitch (I typed hotchpotch, but like the phrase hotshot pitch autocorrect gave) of political priorities that are now influencing testing policy. Decision making is increasingly political and less evidence based.
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Old 24th May 2020, 04:05 AM   #2038
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I think it's a misunderstanding, we saw the speed he fled Downing Street, I think he just kept running all the way to the safety of his parents and his wife had to drive up to coax him out from under the bed!


Made me laugh!
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Old 24th May 2020, 04:06 AM   #2039
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
About as much as it was government advice that if you fall ill while living in London you should be escorted to your second home in the Chiltons and have your girlfriend brought there too.
You keep repeating this, but didn't Boris only go to Chequers after he was discharged from hospital? By then, he was no longer infectious, and had been told to go somewhere to rest and recuperate - presumably you'd agree that 10 Downing Street, is not the ideal place for someone to do that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson

Last edited by ceptimus; 24th May 2020 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 24th May 2020, 04:43 AM   #2040
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You keep repeating this, but didn't Boris only go to Chequers after he was discharged from hospital? By then, he was no longer infectious, and had been told to go somewhere to rest and recuperate - presumably you'd agree that 10 Downing Street, is not the ideal place for someone to do that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson

The flat in Downing Street the PM uses is self contained, luxurious and spacious, big enough to bring a family up in but I do not begrudge him choosing to go to Chequers to recuperate. However I think that the police helping his girlfriend to break the regulations about essential travel and “stay home” was very wrong.
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