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Old 11th June 2019, 10:21 PM   #1
arthwollipot
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How long has "homosexual" been in the Bible?

An interesting and eye-opening read.

https://www.forgeonline.org/blog/201...-romans-124-27

Relevant excerpt:

Quote:
...I had a German friend come back to town and I asked if he could help me with some passages in one of my German Bibles from the 1800s. So we went to Leviticus 18:22 and he’s translating it for me word for word. In the English it says “Man shall not lie with man, for it is an abomination,” In the German version it says “Man shall not lie with young boys as he does with women, for it an abomination.” I said, “What?! Are you sure?” He said, “Yes!” So we went to Leviticus 20:13— same thing, “Young boys.” So we went to 1 Corinthians to see how they translated arsenokoitai (original greek word) and instead of homosexuals it said, “Boy molesters will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:38 PM   #2
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Since 1946, according to this article: Has “Homosexual” always been in the Bible? (Forge, March 21, 2019)

Forging a Sacred Weapon: How the Bible Became Anti-Gay (canyonwalkerconnections.com, March 26, 2019)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 11th June 2019, 10:49 PM   #3
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Since 1946, according to this article: Has “Homosexual” always been in the Bible? (Forge, March 21, 2019)
Uh, yes, that's the article I linked in the OP.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
And that book is cited in the article.
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:51 PM   #4
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So what's the point of the question in the title?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:53 PM   #5
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It's rhetorical.
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Old 11th June 2019, 11:49 PM   #6
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This reminds me of how in 1954 the words 'under god' were added the the American Pledge of Allegiance after being just fine without those words for decades.


The point is, people in power can literally change history to push their brainwashing of the masses.
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:05 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's rhetorical.

It's clickbait. It should have been: The condemnation of homosexuality, "Man shall not lie with man," was added to the Bible in 1946.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:09 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's clickbait. It should have been: The condemnation of homosexuality, "Man shall not lie with man," was added to the Bible in 1946.
It is common to frame the title of an article in the form of a question that the article itself answers. I make no apology for it.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:09 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's clickbait. It should have been: The condemnation of homosexuality, "Man shall not lie with man," was added to the Bible in 1946.
The King James bible uses the word "mankind" rather than "young boys" so I'm guessing this prohibition dates from before 1946.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:32 AM   #10
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Nah, I wouldn't call it "click bait", I'd call it "taking some idiot internet troll seriously".

1. If you really want to learn what a verse means, you go to the original, not pick and choose whichever English translation most appeals to you. And the original word used in both Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 is zakar meaning "male". As in, it's also used to specify stuff like creating male and female of each animal in Genesis, or packing a male and a female of each in the ark.

The notion that suddenly it means human boys because some internet dumbass likes it better that way is nonsense.

2. "Arsenokoitai" appears in very few Greek texts, all later than Paul and most being Xian. So basically Paul apparently coined it himself from two words: arsen, meaning male, and koites, meaning bed. Again, "arsen" is the general word for "male", and is the word used for making male and female animals in Genesis in Greek translations of that.

3. Even as translations go, it's not from the 1946 or whatever, it's in KJV too.


Look, I get it that some men like men and I have no problem with that. So go and do whatever you like with each other. But lying about what historical texts say is a whole other dish. History, including biblical one isn't there to be distorted into whatever gives someone a cool rationalization.
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Last edited by HansMustermann; 12th June 2019 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:22 AM   #11
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Fake news. Here is the German bible https://www.wordproject.org/bibles/de/03/18.htm#0
Leviticus 18:22
Quote:
Du sollst nicht bei einem Mann liegen wie bei einer Frau; es ist ein Greuel.
Google Translate says this is
Quote:
You should not lie with a man like a woman; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13
Quote:
Wenn jemand bei einem Manne liegt wie bei einer Frau, so haben sie getan, was ein Greuel ist, und sollen beide des Todes sterben; Blutschuld lastet auf ihnen.
In English thaks to Google Translate
Quote:
If anyone lies with a man like a woman, they have done what is an abomination, and both are to die of death; Blood guilt weighs on them.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:32 AM   #12
HansMustermann
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Of course, the real conclusion being that you shouldn't do it lying, and probably not in a bed, to be safe from Paul too. Bent over a desk or reverse cowgirl on a chair should be totally ok, amirite?
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:33 AM   #13
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Well, my first take sounded maybe a bit harsh, so maybe it helps explain why I have a major problem with the fake news that oh, only after 1946 they started caring about homosexuality. That's denying the fact that homosexuals were persecuted before 1946 just as well, and sometimes more.

E.g., since we're talking about what it supposedly says in Germany, that the Third Reich actually had a category for homosexuals in the concentration camps, alongside jews, communists, etc. An estimated 60% of the gays sent to concentration camps died there. It's also noted that they tended to be even worse treated than the Jews. And FSM knows those didn't exactly have it easy.

So if it's not ok to rewrite history to omit the antisemitism before 1946, I don't see why it would be ok to rewrite it as no homophobia either.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:26 AM   #14
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There's a reason why genuine Biblical scholars have had extensive education in multiple ancient languages. You can't expect to grab a word appearing in a modern Bible and deduce much significance from it unless you know the history of that bit of text and which ancient (and dead) languages and dialects of languages it's been translated through over the centuries. You'd look foolish asserting a theological or historical point based on a word then found out that word meant something different in the Pontic Greek text that was used by the Syriac-speaking bishop who mistranslated it into Latin.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:20 PM   #15
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Interesting.
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Old 16th June 2019, 02:21 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So what's the point of the question in the title?
How about this point:

"Someone made a claim and I'm not sure if the claim is true, can you guys help me research it? Because it's an interesting question the truth of which I'd like to get right."
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:36 AM   #17
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There is a point that homosexual couldn't be in the bible as the word was only invented 1868. And the concept that sexual orientation existed is more modern still. So in a way it is more modern in its framing by talking about men who have sex with men instead of dragging identity into it, as that framework is more common medically now talking about behavior instead of identity.
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Old 17th June 2019, 09:28 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There is a point that homosexual couldn't be in the bible as the word was only invented 1868. And the concept that sexual orientation existed is more modern still. So in a way it is more modern in its framing by talking about men who have sex with men instead of dragging identity into it, as that framework is more common medically now talking about behavior instead of identity.
Indeed. The moderns insist that sexuality is an identity because our recent legal tradition has been to give rights based on identity and not to those who practice a behavior, because a behavior is seen as voluntary and mutable. To deny that sexual orientation is an immutable part of someone's being is to threaten their legal rights. Which is of course unfair.

This entanglement of theory and policy prevents a lot of honest discussion and academic research, as well as preventing people from exploring the full spectrum of possibilities in sex. I think society would be better off, and individuals a lot happier, if people went back to thinking of sex as something people do (or don't) rather than some fundamental aspect of their psyche.
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Old 18th June 2019, 03:20 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
How about this point:

"Someone made a claim and I'm not sure if the claim is true, can you guys help me research it? Because it's an interesting question the truth of which I'd like to get right."

That was HansMustermann's point in post 10.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th June 2019, 06:51 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That was HansMustermann's point in post 10.
I'm pretty sure it was also the OP's point. Which is what you were asking about.
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Old 18th June 2019, 09:43 AM   #21
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Well, considering that we're talking about the Bible and Paul's "men-bedders" expression, I'm pretty sure that good ol' Paul Of Tarsus had NO idea about identity.

So, brothers and sisters, let us open the good book at St Paul's Epistle to the Romans, first chapter, verses 25 to 27 (or you can start at verse 18, if you're not convinced):
25. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

27. and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
For Paul it's not who you were born, but God's punishment for idolatry and worshipping false gods. Seems fair: worship the wrong god, get a dick up the ass as punishment. (No, literally. Read the last sentence indented above.)

(Also note that God can make you do that, and then deny you entrance to Heaven for what he made you do, cf 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. 'Cause, you know, he's righteous like that. Makes you do something, and then damns you for it )
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

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Old 18th June 2019, 09:48 AM   #22
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BTW, note that the above part of Romans is also quite clear about what Paul means by homosexuality. While the "men-bedders" word elsewhere may or may not be open to reinterpretation, here he explicitly says what he means. And there is no qualification for it to be just with young boys or girls.

For reference here the literal (as in, translated literally word for word) Greek reads "were inflamed in their desire towards one another male with male." Read that as you will. It doesn't seem to imply any kind of asymmetry in that relationship to me.
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 18th June 2019 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 18th June 2019, 05:58 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
How about this point:

"Someone made a claim and I'm not sure if the claim is true, can you guys help me research it? Because it's an interesting question the truth of which I'd like to get right."
That's pretty much it. A very progressive Christian friend is now spamming this link to her more conservative friends, so I thought I'd ask.
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