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Old 3rd June 2018, 02:02 PM   #1
MrFliop
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What I dislike about modern atheism

I am an atheist because I know its common sense that if there's zero proof of something there's no reason to believe its true. Therefore since I have yet to see any serious evidence for any deity's existence I have no reason to believe in any god.

I'm glad that atheism is no on the rise but it seems that many people (specifically young people) are becoming atheists simply because its edgy. Because christianity is the status quo religion so being an atheist is the counterculture to this. Or because people want to p**s off their parents. Or because they got dragged into church in their youth.

People should choose what they want to believe through critical thinking and what conclusions they come up with on their own. If people blindly follow atheism because its trendy right now then they're no better than religious followers.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 03:41 PM   #2
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Pfft .. who cares, man ? Let people enjoy atheism the way they want. Or anything else, actually.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 03:49 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
....it seems that many people (specifically young people) are becoming atheists simply because its edgy. Because christianity is the status quo religion so being an atheist is the counterculture to this. Or because people want to p**s off their parents. Or because they got dragged into church in their youth.
....
Go on then, back this up with something apart from your opinion.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 04:48 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
I'm glad that atheism is no on the rise but it seems that many people (specifically young people) are becoming atheists simply because its edgy. Because christianity is the status quo religion so being an atheist is the counterculture to this. Or because people want to p**s off their parents. Or because they got dragged into church in their youth.

What if secularization is just a natural side-effect of increased diversity? I mean, christianity wasn't the status quo religion where I grew up, but my generation is definitely less religious than my parents (who were less than their parents).

Does that count as an acceptable reason for atheism?

Also, your point sort of defeats itself because youths grow up to be adults. So if teens are turning to atheism to distinguish themselves from their parents, won't they become more religious as they age and become parents themselves? Or will the next generation rebel against their atheist parents by all becoming hardcore Zoroastrians?

Overall, I think there are some logical problems to work out with your ideas.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 05:31 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post

I'm glad that atheism is no on the rise.
Here I meant to type "I'm glad atheism is on the rise"
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post

So if teens are turning to atheism to distinguish themselves from their parents, won't they become more religious as they age and become parents themselves?
Yes, that's what I'm worried about.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 06:05 PM   #6
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Old 3rd June 2018, 06:14 PM   #7
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
I know its common sense that if there's zero proof of something there's no reason to believe its true.
I think this is too strong of a criterion for believing in something. Many of the things we all believe have no proof. As a matter of fact hardly anything can be proven outside of logic and mathematics! Perhaps it would be better to say that you try not to believe in anything for which there is no evidence, or for which there is no good reason, or something similar. But there are a couple of wiggle words there, too.

I'd agree that there is a new breed of outspoken sort of atheist-activist that can get annoying. They often seem overeager to let others know they identify strongly as atheists, and they're always wanting to debate about the topic. But upon further thought, maybe they're not such a new breed since that sounds like me about ten years ago. :0
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Old 3rd June 2018, 07:50 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
People should choose what they want to believe through critical thinking...
Stop right there!

A = without; theos = god.

Atheism is not believing in god/s.

There is no other criterion for being an atheist, nor should there be. It doesn't matter why someone claims to be an atheist, or even whether it's true - a lot of avowed atheists are actually anti-theists. Big deal - if they don't understand the irony & hypocrisy, I do - and I find it highly amusing.

David Icke is an atheist.

It's not a case of choosing your bedfellows - they are who they are.

Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
If people blindly follow atheism because its trendy right now then they're no better than religious followers.
I would equally say that as soon as people start introducing dogma for inclusion in atheism they're no better than religious followers.

Feel free to call yourself "Scientific Atheist" or "Critical Thinking Atheist" if you want to make a distinction, or be like the late and much-lamented Douglas Adams, who called himself a "Radical Atheist" for exactly the reasons you mention.

"The Atheist" is already taken, sorry.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 07:54 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Pfft .. who cares, man ? Let people enjoy atheism the way they want. Or anything else, actually.
Bingo.

We've had Dawkins with "Brights" to distinguish themselves as thinking atheists.

That turned out well.

Or there were the chicks who decided that atheism should be feminist and started a movement and forum, both of which appear defunct.

Why do people constantly want to make atheism something it isn't?
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Old 3rd June 2018, 10:58 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
I'm glad that atheism is no(w) on the rise but it seems that many people (specifically young people) are becoming atheists simply because its edgy. Because christianity is the status quo religion so being an atheist is the counterculture to this.

In Scandinavia, atheism (agnosticism, secularism, irreligiosity, whatever ...) is now the status quo 'religion', which makes it very hard to portray atheism as edgy or counterculture. That doesn't stop organized atheists from trying, though, but it falls flat when they attempt to portray themselves as brave warriors against the non-existent religious oppression! I have a little more compassion for people who grew up in some kind of cult, the Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance. For them the “benign indifference” and “utter obliviousness” that characterize most Danes are a bit harder to come by.
However, in spite of not really being edgy, religion continues to lose its hold on (most) people.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 11:26 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I'd agree that there is a new breed of outspoken sort of atheist-activist that can get annoying. They often seem overeager to let others know they identify strongly as atheists, and they're always wanting to debate about the topic. But upon further thought, maybe they're not such a new breed since that sounds like me about ten years ago. :0
Ditto. Now I just want people to stop hurling insults at each other.
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Old 4th June 2018, 01:48 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
I am an atheist because I know its common sense that if there's zero proof of something there's no reason to believe its true. Therefore since I have yet to see any serious evidence for any deity's existence I have no reason to believe in any god.

I'm glad that atheism is no on the rise but it seems that many people (specifically young people) are becoming atheists simply because its edgy. Because christianity is the status quo religion so being an atheist is the counterculture to this. Or because people want to p**s off their parents. Or because they got dragged into church in their youth.

People should choose what they want to believe through critical thinking and what conclusions they come up with on their own. If people blindly follow atheism because its trendy right now then they're no better than religious followers.
Follow what? Seriously how does anyone follow "atheism"?

And I suspect that you are not in a country such as the UK? In the UK religion is now just not something of interest for most "young people".
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Old 4th June 2018, 01:59 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
People should choose what they want to believe through critical thinking
You don't have to be a critical thinker to be an atheist. There are critical thinkers who believe in a deity and atheists who are not critical thinkers.
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Old 4th June 2018, 02:16 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
its common sense that if there's zero proof of something there's no reason to believe its true.
Okay, fair enough.

Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
many people (specifically young people) are becoming atheists simply because its edgy.
So, going by the above, as this is something you believe in there should be greater than zero proof of it.

Care to share it?
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Old 4th June 2018, 05:12 AM   #15
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Sorry, but this thread made me think of this.

https://xkcd.com/774/
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Old 4th June 2018, 05:25 AM   #16
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We might note that young people join other religions for the reasons stated by the OP. The Hare Krishnas, various cults, contemporary Paganism, etc, etc.

NPR, just a couple of years ago, did a segment on young people who were “Loosing Their Religion”. These youngsters were not turning to atheism. Rather, they were loosing the religion of their parents, and off in search of alternatives.
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Old 4th June 2018, 06:12 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I think this is too strong of a criterion for believing in something. Many of the things we all believe have no proof. As a matter of fact hardly anything can be proven outside of logic and mathematics! Perhaps it would be better to say that you try not to believe in anything for which there is no evidence, or for which there is no good reason, or something similar. But there are a couple of wiggle words there, too.

I'd agree that there is a new breed of outspoken sort of atheist-activist that can get annoying. They often seem overeager to let others know they identify strongly as atheists, and they're always wanting to debate about the topic. But upon further thought, maybe they're not such a new breed since that sounds like me about ten years ago. :0
I think this could be a reaction to outspoken religious fundos like Evangelicals, militant Islamists etc who want to spread their rotten teachings, often at the expense of women and minorities.

Did anyone see this article?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...eshape-america

Quote:

The emboldened religious right has unleashed a wave of legislation across the United States since Donald Trump became president, as part of an organised bid to impose hardline Christian values across American society.

A playbook known as Project Blitz, developed by a collection of Christian groups, has provided state politicians with a set of off-the-shelf pro-Christian “model bills”.
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Old 4th June 2018, 06:14 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
We might note that young people join other religions for the reasons stated by the OP. The Hare Krishnas, various cults, contemporary Paganism, etc, etc.

NPR, just a couple of years ago, did a segment on young people who were “Loosing Their Religion”. These youngsters were not turning to atheism. Rather, they were loosing the religion of their parents, and off in search of alternatives.
"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

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Old 4th June 2018, 06:41 AM   #19
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Personally, I just hope people consider why they believe what they do, especially if they receive new information that might change their minds. I try to do the same. The only time faith-based beliefs come into the equation is when someone tries to foist theirs on me, or makes objectively false statements about reality in the name of such beliefs, and even then, I can walk away if that person continues (and doesn't present anything that I haven't heard before, of course).
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Old 4th June 2018, 06:52 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
I'm glad that atheism is no on the rise but it seems that many people (specifically young people) are becoming atheists simply because its edgy. Because christianity is the status quo religion so being an atheist is the counterculture to this. Or because people want to p**s off their parents. Or because they got dragged into church in their youth.
In my experience this has always been the case with some percentage of atheists. Same goes for various alt religions. Lots of folks(but not all) who are just mad at mom and dad for dragging them to church for 18 years. An obviously generalization and symplifications but I've met more than a few.
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Old 4th June 2018, 07:48 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

matthew
Wow! Profound.......maybe.
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Old 4th June 2018, 07:52 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Follow what? Seriously how does anyone follow "atheism"?
Each day you need to find a new God not to believe in.

May I recommend for today, Cyamites, Greek God of beans.

Last edited by Lothian; 4th June 2018 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 4th June 2018, 07:57 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Each day you need to find a new God not to believe in.

May I recommend for today, Cyamites, Greek God of beans.
Great idea! To facilitate this is suggest the following wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_deities
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Old 4th June 2018, 08:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
If people blindly follow atheism because its trendy right now then they're no better than religious followers.
Citations, data, evidence?
All the people, including the young ones made the choice exactly through critical thinking.


Mind you for me 'young' means under 25
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Old 4th June 2018, 08:38 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
it seems that many people (specifically young people) are becoming atheists simply because its edgy.
I've seen some of this, not just with young people and not just with atheism, and I have some theories about why (Disclaimer - I'm an American living in America and I haven't done a peer-reviewed double blinded study of this stuff):

1. Kids, man. A certain percentage of them just like to be as "edgy" as possible, and then they'll look back in a decade or so and be really embarrassed.

2. While atheists are far from oppressed, there is some bias. This means that many atheists, particularly those still living with religious parents, will choose to keep pretty quiet about it. Since the more meek and non-confrontational ones are the most likely to be quiet about their atheism, you'll hear from the 'in your face' ones way more often and that skews our estimates of the population as a whole.

3. I think it's related to the same thing that causes a lot of the "college liberal" jokes and stereotypes. When you first start to learn that society isn't what you thought it was and there's something that is either untrue or unfair that is nonetheless prevalent everywhere around you you kinda flip a bit. It sometimes takes a bit for people to calm down and find a balance between "say nothing and be complicit in the system" and "stop watching a show I love forever just because of one offhand reference to an idiom that they probably didn't even realize has its roots in racism". To some of these guys, they may have just realized god isn't real and are still reeling from looking everywhere and seeing just how thoroughly religious thought is woven through society. Most of them, hopefully, will eventually stop harassing people on Facebook and insisting on calling god "sky-daddy" just to get a rise out of others.

4. A certain percentage of people, kids or not, are just that way. Actually a lot of the big mainstream atheists get on my nerves because of the "look how edgy I am" attitude they have, and I'm talking about people who are forty or older.

[/quote]If people blindly follow atheism because its trendy right now then they're no better than religious followers.[/quote]

Eh. I get what you're saying but for me I think that's such a tiny part of what makes you better or worse than someone else that I can't even worry about it. The reasons people do or don't believe in a particular concept are typically complicated and can't be boiled down to "doing it blindly". Even if they are doing something pretty much blindly people contain multitudes and they might be all about critical thinking in other areas of their lives, or they blindly follow but they blindly follow all the right stuff and are awesome people while doing it so whatever.
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Old 4th June 2018, 08:39 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
All the people, including the young ones made the choice exactly through critical thinking.
Citations, data, evidence?
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Old 4th June 2018, 09:23 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
I think this could be a reaction to outspoken religious fundos like Evangelicals, militant Islamists etc who want to spread their rotten teachings, often at the expense of women and minorities.
Yeah, that stuff can get scary quick.


Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Quote:

The emboldened religious right has unleashed a wave of legislation across the United States since Donald Trump became president, as part of an organised bid to impose hardline Christian values across American society.
It is interesting to note that there seems to be an upsurge in so-called "cultural Christians" who claim that western liberal values came, more or less, from Christianity. Douglas Murray, for example, holds such a view. I know the Bible can be cherry picked to say many contrary things, but western liberal values did on the whole arise in, well, wait for it...western Christian societies.

I would not be surprised if we see an upswing of interest in Christianity in areas in the EU with high immigrations from Islamic countries with such different values.
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Old 4th June 2018, 09:49 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Yeah, that stuff can get scary quick.




It is interesting to note that there seems to be an upsurge in so-called "cultural Christians" who claim that western liberal values came, more or less, from Christianity. Douglas Murray, for example, holds such a view. I know the Bible can be cherry picked to say many contrary things, but western liberal values did on the whole arise in, well, wait for it...western Christian societies.

I would not be surprised if we see an upswing of interest in Christianity in areas in the EU with high immigrations from Islamic countries with such different values.
I'm sure that it's possible to find passages in the bible endorsing democracy and equal rights for women and minorities, fair and independant criminal justice system etc.... or maybe not. It seems to me that some christian sects have evolved to keep pace with developments in society while others are lagging behind.

I doubt that christian sects will benefit from the influence of Islam; more likely, people will continue to embrace atheism, which is the current trend.
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Old 4th June 2018, 10:55 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Citations, data, evidence?
Personal anecdote!
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Old 4th June 2018, 12:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Quote:
If people blindly follow atheism because its trendy right now then they're no better than religious followers.
Eh. I get what you're saying but for me I think that's such a tiny part of what makes you better or worse than someone else that I can't even worry about it. The reasons people do or don't believe in a particular concept are typically complicated and can't be boiled down to "doing it blindly". Even if they are doing something pretty much blindly people contain multitudes and they might be all about critical thinking in other areas of their lives, or they blindly follow but they blindly follow all the right stuff and are awesome people while doing it so whatever.

I agree. And I would like to add that those who follow blindly and aren't "awesome people while doing it," may not even be offensive because of whatever they're following blindly but for entirely different reasons. The one who's an obnoxious ******** as a Christian, often remains one after he's 'converted' to atheism, which is no surprise, really.
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Old 5th June 2018, 01:43 AM   #31
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Mod WarningMoved the posts discussing the meaning of the words atheism and atheist to the recent ongoing thread discussing such matters http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=329001
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Old 5th June 2018, 09:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
I'm sure that it's possible to find passages in the bible endorsing democracy and equal rights for women and minorities, fair and independant criminal justice system etc.... or maybe not.
Here you go.

Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
It seems to me that some christian sects have evolved to keep pace with developments in society while others are lagging behind.
Unfortunately, the regressive and conservative sects are far noisier than the progressive ones, which tend therefore to be overlooked. Hence the overall impression - especially amongst outspoken atheists - is that Christianity as a whole is regressive and conservative, when that's not actually true.
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Old 6th June 2018, 12:34 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Uh, no. The only thing even vaguely resembling what he asked for is about the justice system (e.g., that judges shouldn't take bribes in Deuteronomy), though even that is subverted by the law and the religion being one. For the other stuff he asked for, like endorsing democracy or equal rights for women and minorities, your list is a completely irrelevant as to make me wonder if you were trying to make a joke.
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Old 6th June 2018, 12:51 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
I am an atheist because I know its common sense that if there's zero proof of something there's no reason to believe its true. Therefore since I have yet to see any serious evidence for any deity's existence I have no reason to believe in any god.

I'm glad that atheism is no on the rise but it seems that many people (specifically young people) are becoming atheists simply because its edgy. Because christianity is the status quo religion so being an atheist is the counterculture to this. Or because people want to p**s off their parents. Or because they got dragged into church in their youth.

People should choose what they want to believe through critical thinking and what conclusions they come up with on their own. If people blindly follow atheism because its trendy right now then they're no better than religious followers.
Seems to me like "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." (Hitchens.)

But more fundamentally, once you said that there is no reason to believe in X, that's that. That's the only thing that matters. You then don't need any particular reason to disbelieve X. It's just falling back to the null position. You can't then say that only reasons Y and Z are valid if you want to disbelieve X, because there are none required.

But the even more fundamental problem I see there is that you assume that basically some people people are p-zombies. In fact, worse, that basically they take decisions and do stuff without any thinking involved.

BUT anyone who took ANY decision, even stuff like flicking the light switch when going for a piss at night, HAS in fact weighed the reasons to and the reasons not to. Even subconscious decisions, not only we have a dedicated area on the brain where what happens is exactly that all the relevant data you have in the brain is sent for a "voting" of reasons to do it vs reasons not to do it, but we can even watch it happening in real time.

If they decided to not do it after all, it's precisely because the reasons to do it side was comparatively weaker.

Basically it seems to me like what they decided is exactly what you ask for: that there are no good reasons to believe, or at least not enough good reasons. They may not have gone deeply philosophical about it, but nevertheless that was the root of the decision being made.
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Old 6th June 2018, 05:12 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Uh, no. The only thing even vaguely resembling what he asked for is about the justice system (e.g., that judges shouldn't take bribes in Deuteronomy), though even that is subverted by the law and the religion being one. For the other stuff he asked for, like endorsing democracy or equal rights for women and minorities, your list is a completely irrelevant as to make me wonder if you were trying to make a joke.
My point is that someone has already looked for it. This is a list of all the "good stuff" they found. Also, it complements the comment I made in response to someone else.

If you're looking in the Bible for progressive values that literally didn't exist at the time that the Bible was written, you're unlikely to find them. Seems an unreasonable demand to me.
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Old 7th June 2018, 12:45 AM   #36
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But linking that list is still not a "yes" answer to their question. Your second paragraph about would be a reasonable answer, but linking a list of completely different stuff isn't.
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:02 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
But linking that list is still not a "yes" answer to their question. Your second paragraph about would be a reasonable answer, but linking a list of completely different stuff isn't.
If what they were asking about existed, it would be in that list.
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:10 AM   #38
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"Honor thy father and thy mother" isn't good stuff at all! I know from personal experience what psychopathic parents can do. This commandment is perverse!
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:29 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
"Honor thy father and thy mother" isn't good stuff at all! I know from personal experience what psychopathic parents can do. This commandment is perverse!
While I'm truly sorry for your experience, please do not generalise your experience to the rest of the population, the majority of whom have good relationships with their parents.
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:39 AM   #40
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What I criticize is the generalisation of the commandment! Please don't tell me about the majority!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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