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Old 7th June 2018, 01:44 AM   #41
Trakar
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I've no problem with those who have no theism beliefs (my understanding of the term a-theist), but (subjectively) most that loudly proclaim their atheism seem to be more anti-theist, or con(against)-theists/theism, rather than truly, and merely, without theistic beliefs. Agnosticism, is merely being uncertain and unsure whether or not there is an objectively compelling case for Theism or the Supernatural. The purported power of Faith, is the acceptance of that unseen, perhaps unseeable, despite the lack of compelling support. It doesn't take faith to believe in that which we can see, measure, and quantify.
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:18 AM   #42
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My problem isn't with the 'good' parts, nor even with their lacking exceptions, but with the idea that it somehow excuses the rest of the crap. And the fact is that if you take those on God's authority you also have to take the rest of the crap on the same authority. And if you mix a chocolate bar, even a very good one, with a bushel of steaming horse manure, you ain't exactly getting chocolate mousse, if you catch my drift.

Point in case, I actually have a female relative whose husband slept with her mom. (And strangely enough I wasn't the husband) She had the expectable MAJOR nervous breakdown when finding out about it. In fact, she wasn't doing much except, well, not even as much cry, as literally howl, for the next few months.

According to the OT, she should have been executed for it. And just to make it clear, by "she" I mean the victim.

I also have -- well, had -- a grandma and a great aunt who got a bit of ye olde gang rape in WW2. All that the bible has to say on the topic is basically that the rapists should have also kidnapped them and shaved their head before raping them. I'm not entirely sure how that would make it any better. Any of the women on the forum can please tell me if being ALSO kidnapped at bayonet point and having the guy play dress-up-barbie with you and your hairstyle first would make the rape go down any better.

So, yeah, I hope I can be excused if being told "but it also has good stuff" doesn't impress me much.
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:26 AM   #43
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@Trakar
The two are not exclusive categories. Being anti-theist or not doesn't make one any more or less of an atheist. So I'm not sure why one should specify the former every time they mention the latter.
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Old 7th June 2018, 03:32 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
While I'm truly sorry for your experience, please do not generalise your experience to the rest of the population, the majority of whom have good relationships with their parents.
It's the commandment that generalises.
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Old 7th June 2018, 05:57 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
3. I think it's related to the same thing that causes a lot of the "college liberal" jokes and stereotypes. When you first start to learn that society isn't what you thought it was and there's something that is either untrue or unfair that is nonetheless prevalent everywhere around you you kinda flip a bit. It sometimes takes a bit for people to calm down and find a balance between "say nothing and be complicit in the system" and "stop watching a show I love forever just because of one offhand reference to an idiom that they probably didn't even realize has its roots in racism". To some of these guys, they may have just realized god isn't real and are still reeling from looking everywhere and seeing just how thoroughly religious thought is woven through society. Most of them, hopefully, will eventually stop harassing people on Facebook and insisting on calling god "sky-daddy" just to get a rise out of others.
I think this is a much more common phenomenon than people give it credit for. There's probably a psychological term for it, googling didn't turn up anything for me. But any kind of drastic change in one's belief structure is associated with a period of "showiness," in which the person goes a little bit overboard in order to seek acceptance and affirmation of their life choices from their new community.
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Old 7th June 2018, 06:27 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's the commandment that generalises.
Exactly.
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Old 7th June 2018, 07:35 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Here you go.

Unfortunately, the regressive and conservative sects are far noisier than the progressive ones, which tend therefore to be overlooked. Hence the overall impression - especially amongst outspoken atheists - is that Christianity as a whole is regressive and conservative, when that's not actually true.
Well, it does at least say something about a fair justice system, but I missed the rest... what was funny was the bit in the middle where it listed 13/14 books and said there was nothing good in them!

Your point is the one that I made: outspoken atheists are reacting to the outspoken theists. If they shut up so would the atheists. At least atheists don't preach subjugation of women, demonisation of minorities etc.
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Old 7th June 2018, 10:58 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
My problem isn't with the 'good' parts, nor even with their lacking exceptions, but with the idea that it somehow excuses the rest of the crap. And the fact is that if you take those on God's authority you also have to take the rest of the crap on the same authority. And if you mix a chocolate bar, even a very good one, with a bushel of steaming horse manure, you ain't exactly getting chocolate mousse, if you catch my drift.

Point in case, I actually have a female relative whose husband slept with her mom. (And strangely enough I wasn't the husband) She had the expectable MAJOR nervous breakdown when finding out about it. In fact, she wasn't doing much except, well, not even as much cry, as literally howl, for the next few months.

According to the OT, she should have been executed for it. And just to make it clear, by "she" I mean the victim.

I also have -- well, had -- a grandma and a great aunt who got a bit of ye olde gang rape in WW2. All that the bible has to say on the topic is basically that the rapists should have also kidnapped them and shaved their head before raping them. I'm not entirely sure how that would make it any better. Any of the women on the forum can please tell me if being ALSO kidnapped at bayonet point and having the guy play dress-up-barbie with you and your hairstyle first would make the rape go down any better.

So, yeah, I hope I can be excused if being told "but it also has good stuff" doesn't impress me much.
Here are some kids who don't honor their mother

https://933flz.iheart.com/content/20...ont-be-missed/
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Old 7th June 2018, 11:07 AM   #49
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By the sound of it, they make a very good case against that biblical commandment.
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Old 7th June 2018, 11:26 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Well, it does at least say something about a fair justice system, but I missed the rest... what was funny was the bit in the middle where it listed 13/14 books and said there was nothing good in them!
It's pretty accurate too.

Although I would still point out that for the rest a good line among a few hundred lines of crap, still isn't much of a saving grace. Especially when the crap is not even in the same book, but on the same flipping page.

E.g., taking a random example from there, the same page of Exodus that says (in the list's own words) "Be kind to strangers, widows, and fatherless children." (Exodus 22:21-22) Also commands killing them if they worship any other god (22:20) or if you think they're witches (22:18). Which do you think took precedence? Plus such other stuff as forbidding speaking against your ruler (without extra qualifiers, such as, dunno, 'unless he's a genocidal tyrant) in 22: 28. So, you know, if you happened to live in Germany in 1942 and found yourself packed in a freight wagon to some *ahem* vacation camp, you'd be forbidden by God himself from cursing *ahem* the leader. Anyway, also on the same page as endorsing slavery. (22:3)

Also on the same frikken page as subverting the whole idea of a fair trial that was mentioned as good in another book of it. Because as per 22:2, you're perfectly allowed to "smite him that he die" on the spot if you catch a thief. It doesn't even need to be self-defense or anything, nor have any witnesses that he was in fact stealing anything, as opposed to, dunno, being just a trespasser.

So essentially even the "good parts" are in the middle of the crap parts. It's a pretty literal turd sandwich. And not even the kind with the turd in the middle. It's a very thin slice of some good stuff, packed between two solid slabs of turd.
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Old 7th June 2018, 05:35 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's the commandment that generalises.
And it's an entirely reasonable generalisation for a bronze-age desert civilisation where family ties and inheritance were of critical social importance. I was reacting to dann's apparent sentiment that since he has no respect for his parents, other people also shouldn't. If I misinterpreted that then I apologise.
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Old 7th June 2018, 10:25 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And it's an entirely reasonable generalisation for a bronze-age desert civilisation where family ties and inheritance were of critical social importance. I was reacting to dann's apparent sentiment that since he has no respect for his parents, other people also shouldn't. If I misinterpreted that then I apologise.
Yeah, I always used to say this. Turns out it was the iron age.
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Old 7th June 2018, 11:40 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And it's an entirely reasonable generalisation for a bronze-age desert civilisation where family ties and inheritance were of critical social importance. I was reacting to dann's apparent sentiment that since he has no respect for his parents, other people also shouldn't. If I misinterpreted that then I apologise.

Do you find it reasonable for Isaak to honor his father, Abraham?
How about something along these lines? Thou shalt honor everybody who deserves to be honored.
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Old 7th June 2018, 11:45 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Here are some kids who don't honor their mother

https://933flz.iheart.com/content/20...ont-be-missed/

I guess the kids have now condemned themselves to burn in hell for disobeying one of the ten commandments.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th June 2018, 03:43 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And it's an entirely reasonable generalisation for a bronze-age desert civilisation where family ties and inheritance were of critical social importance. I was reacting to dann's apparent sentiment that since he has no respect for his parents, other people also shouldn't. If I misinterpreted that then I apologise.
Sure... but the thing is that a lot of people think that these commandments should still be applied to our 21st century civilisations, because they were, you know... handed down by the omnipotent creator of the Universe, rather than just an ad hoc thingamabob to increase social cohesion among illiterate shepherds.
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Old 8th June 2018, 07:57 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
But any kind of drastic change in one's belief structure is associated with a period of "showiness," in which the person goes a little bit overboard in order to seek acceptance and affirmation of their life choices from their new community.
I'm certainly not saying that isn't part of it, but I think that most of it is less about seeking acceptance and more about reeling from seeing so many examples of (insert thing here) so rapidly.

Like, if you're not aware of this kind of thing and then you hear about Cosby being on trial and find out that, no, it's totally legit:
Step one: "Holy crap, Bill Cosby is a rapist?"
Step two: "Wait, hang on, people knew about this for HOW LONG?"
Step three: "______ too? And _____? And... man, how many of them are there? We knew about all of these guys?"
Step four: "What do you mean rape kits just get thrown in a closet and never actually tested?"
(etc., etc.,)
Step _____: "Okay so society as a whole, this entire time, has just been totally fine with kinda looking the other way and not taking this seriously?"

So now at this point you see someone putting on The Hangover and you yell "YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM HOW COULD YOU WATCH THAT?" which makes them think you're an irrational screeching thing and puts them on the defensive, rather than calmly saying "Hey can we watch something else? Something about a movie where an actual convicted rapist is in it AND the plot involves giving roofies to your friends just... seems classless, you know?" which explains your issues with the film in a way that doesn't accuse your friend of being a monster since they probably had honestly never even considered any of that.

For atheism, I think it's the same thing. If you come to it kinda abruptly (I didn't, I had a nice slow walk through deism on my way there) you come to this realization and it seems so obvious and while you're trying to deal with the feeling that you've been lied to you're also seeing all these references to religion that have been there the whole time but which you've never thought about until now. It's on our MONEY? Wait, they went and ADDED it to the pledge of allegiance? Wait, hang on, look at all these religiously-motivated laws! And churches aren't taxed, which means... holy crap, I... I just said holy. It's all through our language!

And as you get hit over and over with just how much religion is everywhere you're also dealing with the idea that the non-existence of god probably feels really obvious now that you've thought about it and WHY CAN'T YOU SHEEPLE SEE THE TRUTH AND... oh whoops you're yelling. Hmm.

And like I said, some people don't grow out of it. But I think for most it's just a natural part of feeling like you're seeing... not quite a conspiracy theory, but something similar... for the first time and feeling like everyone else is just going along with it. While I didn't have much of that feeling with atheism specifically I've felt it with other issues and I've seen people express that feeling about atheism in other discussions. So I don't think most of it is about fitting in.
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Old 8th June 2018, 08:17 AM   #57
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I don't really see the analogy working. Unless someone is railing against a movie that just happens to show someone carrying a bible around. Like, dunno, a vampire movie.

In the case of us anti-theists, what we attack is the source of that screwed up morality, not something as "by association" as a movie that also happened to involve a certain actor.

A more exact analogy is if someone wanted to pass laws based on Cosby's opinions on the matter, or wanted to have a list of top 10 Cosby quotes in front of a courthouse, or such. Then, uh, yeah, no, I'll take my legal inspiration from a less, shall we say, controversial source.


And, since this is invariably going to come up, duly noted, one can proclaim themselves a follower of the bible while also actually being a good person and not following the evil parts. Sure. But that's like being a good samaritan while declaring oneself a follower of Mein Kampf. The credit goes to the individual person, not to the book.
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Old 8th June 2018, 08:53 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Feel free to call yourself "Scientific Atheist" or "Critical Thinking Atheist" if you want to make a distinction, or be like the late and much-lamented Douglas Adams, who called himself a "Radical Atheist" for exactly the reasons you mention.

Wasn't there an episode of South Park in which different factions of atheists in the future were fighting over disagreements about the proper way to not believe in God? Though I believe the point of that was that, even without religion, people would find excuses to hate each other.
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Old 8th June 2018, 02:35 PM   #59
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What is "modern atheism"? Can I buy a book on the subject?

As far was I am concerned "atheism" just means "not theism", how has that changed in modern times?
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Old 8th June 2018, 04:27 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Yeah, I always used to say this. Turns out it was the iron age.
It's kind of in the transition zone, depending on when you consider them to have been originally written.

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Sure... but the thing is that a lot of people think that these commandments should still be applied to our 21st century civilisations, because they were, you know... handed down by the omnipotent creator of the Universe, rather than just an ad hoc thingamabob to increase social cohesion among illiterate shepherds.
Not arguing with that.
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Old 8th June 2018, 05:51 PM   #61
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I don't believe in atheists
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Old 8th June 2018, 07:35 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I don't believe in atheists
Smart man! That way they don't exist for you and that is one less thing to concern yourself with.
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Old 8th June 2018, 07:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
As far was I am concerned "atheism" just means "not theism", how has that changed in modern times?
What has changed (at least in this forum) is the need to be able to make a claim without appearing to believe in the claim.
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Old 8th June 2018, 07:39 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I also have -- well, had -- a grandma and a great aunt who got a bit of ye olde gang rape in WW2. All that the bible has to say on the topic is basically that the rapists should have also kidnapped them and shaved their head before raping them. I'm not entirely sure how that would make it any better. Any of the women on the forum can please tell me if being ALSO kidnapped at bayonet point and having the guy play dress-up-barbie with you and your hairstyle first would make the rape go down any better.


I'm really sorry to hear that. (If it had happened in biblical times, at least god would have made their rapists pay their father and marry them. )
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Old 8th June 2018, 08:10 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Elizabeth I View Post


I'm really sorry to hear that. (If it had happened in biblical times, at least god would have made their rapists pay their father and marry them. )
Yeah, that god seems to be rather disinterested in enforcing its own rules these days.
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Old 8th June 2018, 11:16 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Elizabeth I View Post


I'm really sorry to hear that. (If it had happened in biblical times, at least god would have made their rapists pay their father and marry them. )
Actually, no, not for wartime rape. The OT rules for that are just kidnap her, shave her head and **** her. If you think she's good enough in bed to be worth marrying, go for it, if not, just let her go afterwards.

Sort of a unilateral *ahem* test for marriage

We've got to have rules, people.
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Old 9th June 2018, 01:26 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
@Trakar
The two are not exclusive categories.
Not inherently, no.

Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Being anti-theist or not doesn't make one any more or less of an atheist. So I'm not sure why one should specify the former every time they mention the latter.
The only primary difference I tend to notice is that the anti-theists tend to be very evangelical* and are often quite antagonistic with regard to their, and others' personal beliefs, whereas the not-theists tend to just not be much interested in, or concerned about, what other people believe or don't believe with regard to religion.


*Evangelical - zealous in advocating something, and/or converting others to their perspective.
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Old 9th June 2018, 01:38 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
...Your point is the one that I made: outspoken atheists are reacting to the outspoken theists. If they shut up so would the atheists. At least atheists don't preach subjugation of women, demonisation of minorities etc.
Really? Ayn Rand (among others) seems to do a pretty good imitation of the old testament in non-theistic rhetoric with regard to a number of sexist, racist and selfish/greed issues.
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Old 9th June 2018, 10:07 PM   #69
dann
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yeah, that god seems to be rather disinterested in enforcing its own rules these days.

Not in India (where it may be a different god, of course). As mentioned in another thread:

Quote:
A 49-year-old (apparently one of only three or four who expressed some kind of remorse) had raped a 5-year-old and wanted to make it up to her (and, I guess, her family) in this manner: "I would accept her, I will marry her when I come out of jail."
From the article: A woman interviewed 100 convicted rapists in India. This is what she learned. (Washington Post, Sep. 11, 2017)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th June 2018, 05:37 PM   #70
dudalb
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The main problem I have with a lot of the "New Atheists' is they come off like a Bizzaro version of the "religionists" they hate so much. The arguments between them and the fervent beleivers probably cause a lot of third parties to go away thinking "They Are Both Nuts".
Another problem is that some Athiest just don't want to admit that Athiest can behave like real jerks.
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Old 29th June 2018, 10:44 PM   #71
David Mo
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The problem seems banal to me, or there are underlying assumptions that are not explained.

Almost every belief in the world can be reasonably or stupidly defended. Therefore, to say that there are unbearable atheists is to say nothing relevant. The problem is rather that when we lament the way some atheists are, we have something in mind that should not be done. For example, it is said that an atheist should not attack religion. Why not? If the atheist thinks that religion is a bad thing he is right to attack it. In religion as in any other subject. Or does religion have some kind of special immunity? What if what I want is to provoke? Maybe I think the only way to get society out of its drowsiness is to shake it up a little bit. Is that wrong?

I believe that complaints about the behaviour of some atheists reveal or hide our own ideas about what the ways of behaving and debating ideologies should be.
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Old 30th June 2018, 02:37 AM   #72
dann
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Almost every belief in the world can be reasonably or stupidly defended.

Everybody probably agrees with you on that one.

Quote:
I believe that complaints about the behaviour of some atheists reveal or hide our own ideas about what the ways of behaving and debating ideologies should be.

So is your point that when the belief that there are no gods is defended stupidly by "some atheists", you don't want anybody to criticize them?! Should we ignore that they do it stupidly simply because we think that the target of their criticism is the right one? Haven't you noticed that a stupid attack on religion doesn't really do anything about the problem of religion? It gives the defenders of religion a wonderful example of the stupidity of (some) atheists!

Quote:
Maybe I think the only way to get society out of its drowsiness is to shake it up a little bit. Is that wrong?

Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's not. Could you give us a specific example? (Not that I agree with you that "society" is particularly 'drowsy'. I think that society should be criticized and abolished, not 'shaken up a little bit.')
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th June 2018, 02:39 AM   #73
dann
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Another problem is that some Athiest just don't want to admit that Athiest can behave like real jerks.

They are usually the real jerks ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th June 2018, 05:27 AM   #74
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The main problem I have with a lot of the "New Atheists' is they come off like a Bizzaro version of the "religionists" they hate so much. The arguments between them and the fervent beleivers probably cause a lot of third parties to go away thinking "They Are Both Nuts".
Another problem is that some Athiest just don't want to admit that Athiest can behave like real jerks.
This is so vague that you have wasted your time and ours by writing it.

Give us some specific examples of the problem and maybe some ideas on what to do about it.

There is little point in telling us that you have noticed a lot of jerks who make people think they are nuts.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 30th June 2018, 08:05 AM   #75
SOdhner
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is so vague that you have wasted your time and ours by writing it.

Give us some specific examples of the problem and maybe some ideas on what to do about it.

There is little point in telling us that you have noticed a lot of jerks who make people think they are nuts.
I would put this reply forth as a minor example.
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Old 30th June 2018, 08:56 AM   #76
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Athiesm is on the rise because with the increase in their numbers there is more chance that 2 athiests will marry and have a child. In my experience that child will be told they can choose to follow a religion if they want, but in that case which one and why. For the second generation athiest religion has no point at all and if asked to give a religion on an official form "none" is as or more appropriate than "athiest".
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Old 30th June 2018, 10:32 AM   #77
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"Which religion(s) do you practice?" is a different question from "which religious narratives do you believe in?" which in turn is a different question from "which religious narratives do you think are literally true?"

(Yeah, I'm going to get a lot of incredulity about there being any difference at all between the latter two.)

Disregarding those distinctions, on either or both sides' part, does tend to make the dialog unproductive and tedious. It might even make people look like jerks. It doesn't necessarily make them jerks, though of course it's possible for anyone involved in the disputative discourse to be a jerk for other reasons.
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Old 30th June 2018, 10:37 AM   #78
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What level are we at? Beliefs. Whatever pushes yourself.
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Old 30th June 2018, 10:41 AM   #79
TheGoldcountry
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
"Which religion(s) do you practice?" is a different question from "which religious narratives do you believe in?" which in turn is a different question from "which religious narratives do you think are literally true?"

(Yeah, I'm going to get a lot of incredulity about there being any difference at all between the latter two.)

Disregarding those distinctions, on either or both sides' part, does tend to make the dialog unproductive and tedious. It might even make people look like jerks. It doesn't necessarily make them jerks, though of course it's possible for anyone involved in the disputative discourse to be a jerk for other reasons.
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Old 1st July 2018, 12:01 AM   #80
David Mo
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So is your point that when the belief that there are no gods is defended stupidly by "some atheists", you don't want anybody to criticize them?!
I think I suggested no such thing. What I have said is that we need to focus on why we believe this atheism is following a bad practice. In other words, why this practice is bad, regardless of whether an atheist or a believer follows it.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's not. Could you give us a specific example? (Not that I agree with you that "society" is particularly 'drowsy'. I think that society should be criticized and abolished, not 'shaken up a little bit.')
In Spain the crime of blasphemy is included in the legal code. Courts generally dismiss cases. But the crime exists and is a menace against freedom of expression. Actor Willy Toledo made a public statement in which he said, "I ***** on God and I still have plenty of ***** to ***** on the dogma of the Virgin Mary's virginity". He then stated that he did not recognize the right of a court to bring charges against him for these words and that he declared himself insubordinate. When the court called him to testify, he didn't come. Toledo, unlike other people who were accused of the same crime, who simply stated that they did not want to offend anyone, wanted to draw attention to the illegitimacy of such a crime and questioned the law itself, which the other defendants had not done in accepting the trial and trusting in their innocence.

Maybe he's right.

NOTE: "*****" is referred to the daily task of ejecting the organic waste from the body. I omit the word to avoid the censure of this forum, but in Spain is an habitual exclamation, very popular in some regions. Toledo's attack transcedend the circumstancial situation to aim to the state of right.

Edited by jsfisher:  Edited to (1) fully mask the naughty words as required by the Membership Agreement, and (2) fixed the damaged quote-tags.

Last edited by jsfisher; 1st July 2018 at 06:02 PM.
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