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Tags Brazil issues , education issues , Jair Bolsonaro

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Old 17th May 2019, 11:49 PM   #1
David Mo
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President Bolsonaro against philosophy.

Jair Bolsonaro, Brazilian President, on Twitter April 27, 2019:
The Minister of Education, Abraham Weintraub, is studying how to decentralize investment in philosophy and sociology at universities. Students who have already enrolled will not be affected. The objective is to focus on areas that generate an immediate return to the taxpayer, such as: veterinary, engineering, and medicine,
What do you think?

Note: "Decentralize investment" is an euphemism for "supress"
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Old 18th May 2019, 12:55 AM   #2
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Jair Bolsonaro, Brazilian President, on Twitter April 27, 2019:
The Minister of Education, Abraham Weintraub, is studying how to decentralize investment in philosophy and sociology at universities. Students who have already enrolled will not be affected. The objective is to focus on areas that generate an immediate return to the taxpayer, such as: veterinary, engineering, and medicine,
What do you think?

Note: "Decentralize investment" is an euphemism for "supress"
I have a bit of sympathy for this position. If a country is struggling financially then it makes sense to prioritise where you spend money on those things which will aid the economic development of the country.

On the other hand I believe that varied and broad education is hugely important and that there is more to life than just being put through a meat grinder of training for employment.

I tend to find that efforts to engineer these things are always difficult.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 02:02 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
What do you think?
You mean, about not letting the "barefoot oligarchy" to get away with it?

As in América there are no titles of nobility, people trying to go up in the social ladder strive for getting a diploma so they can add "Dr", "Ing", "Lic" and others before their names a so be "above their fellow citizens". That is done totally free of charge and in many cases without even showing the ability to follow studies in universities, even via good grades in high school or an admission test. Besides that, they want to choose which career are the tax payers to finance and the way they become "outstanding people" in their societies. In many cases they choose short careers, free from math and other dunce-revealing content, that is, they choose what we call "soft studies", full of nice vocabulary, related to subjects that might show they understand the world around them. Psychology, social studies, philosophy and others are their choice with complete independence of whether more "pros" in those fields are needed and investing public funding in "ennobling" them is sound or not.

Bolsonaro is an animal, but he's not wrong about this.

Anyone es libre de hacer de su culo un gabinete, but they'll have to pay for the honour. Not us. And mostly, not those who couldn't follow a career and are still just called Mr or Mz, if even that, in spite of paying taxes.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 11:39 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
You mean, about not letting the "barefoot oligarchy" to get away with it?

As in América there are no titles of nobility, people trying to go up in the social ladder strive for getting a diploma so they can add "Dr", "Ing", "Lic" and others before their names a so be "above their fellow citizens". That is done totally free of charge and in many cases without even showing the ability to follow studies in universities, even via good grades in high school or an admission test. Besides that, they want to choose which career are the tax payers to finance and the way they become "outstanding people" in their societies. In many cases they choose short careers, free from math and other dunce-revealing content, that is, they choose what we call "soft studies", full of nice vocabulary, related to subjects that might show they understand the world around them. Psychology, social studies, philosophy and others are their choice with complete independence of whether more "pros" in those fields are needed and investing public funding in "ennobling" them is sound or not.

Bolsonaro is an animal, but he's not wrong about this.

Anyone es libre de hacer de su culo un gabinete, but they'll have to pay for the honour. Not us. And mostly, not those who couldn't follow a career and are still just called Mr or Mz, if even that, in spite of paying taxes.
Bolsonaro doesn't give this reason. He says they are useless because they produce nothing. He proposes to dedicate funds only to "productive" studies such as engineering, nursing, etc.

In any case, misuse of a hammer is not avoided by throwing the hammer away. You know. If someone picks up the hammer from the wrong side you teach him how to take up the hammer. Otherwise, he won't be able to nail.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 11:42 PM   #5
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Because Bolsanaro doesn't want anyone to do any thinking around him. He just wants willing slaves.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 05:27 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Bolsonaro doesn't give this reason. He says they are useless because they produce nothing. He proposes to dedicate funds only to "productive" studies such as engineering, nursing, etc.
And your evidence for this is...? Because it's not what your quotation in your OP says. And I hope you have one other than your misinterpretation of that tweet and can link it here.

The OP clearly says "returns to the taxpayer" like their health, their animal's health or a technical problem solved. In short, anything that increases GDP by getting any useful* goods or services different from resented taxi drivers who couldn't do it, unemployed "lic"s with aspirations and the occasional "wages paid with public funds for producing ideologized snow jobs" or the existence of this very thread which is a good example of useless social investment.

*from the economic concept of utility, mainly expected utility, as it's obvious from the use of "decentralize investments" and "immediate return" -if correctly translated, because I don't think Bolsonaro knows or is capable of knowing any English and tweets in that language-.

Because your

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Note: "Decentralize investment" is an euphemism for "supress"
promises the same quality of this
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Because Bolsanaro [sic] doesn't want anyone to do any thinking around him. He just wants willing slaves.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 06:55 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
And your evidence for this is...? Because it's not what your quotation in your OP says. And I hope you have one other than your misinterpretation of that tweet and can link it here.

The OP clearly says "returns to the taxpayer" like their health, their animal's health or a technical problem solved. In short, anything that increases GDP by getting any useful* goods or services different from resented taxi drivers who couldn't do it, unemployed "lic"s with aspirations and the occasional "wages paid with public funds for producing ideologized snow jobs" or the existence of this very thread which is a good example of useless social investment.

*from the economic concept of utility, mainly expected utility, as it's obvious from the use of "decentralize investments" and "immediate return" -if correctly translated, because I don't think Bolsonaro knows or is capable of knowing any English and tweets in that language-.
Here you have Bolsonaro’s Twitters about the subject. I don’t see any problem with translations. There isare technical studies that improve the society and humanist studies that are useless (see subversives in other Bolsonaro's versions):
“O Ministro da Educação @abrahamWeinT estuda descentralizar investimento em faculdades de filosofia e sociologia (humanas). Alunos já matriculados não serão afetados. O objetivo é focar em áreas que gerem retorno imediato ao contribuinte, como: veterinária, engenharia e medicina.”

“The Minister of Education, Abraham Weintraub, is studying how to decentralize investment in philosophy and sociology at universities. Students who have already enrolled will not be affected. The objective is to focus on areas that generate immediate return to the taxpayer, such as: veterinary, engineering, and medicine.”
“A função do governo é respeitar o dinheiro do contribuinte, ensinando para os jovens a leitura, escrita e a fazer conta e depois um ofício que gere renda para a pessoa e bem-estar para a família, que melhore a sociedade em sua volta”.

“The role of the government is to respect the taxpayer's money, teaching the young to read, write, do math and to provide a craft that generates income to the person and welfare to the family, which improves society around them.”
This is absolutely consistent with 30% reduction in the public university budget in response to its protests against the government.

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Old 3rd June 2019, 07:12 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Bolsonaro doesn't give this reason. He says they are useless because they produce nothing. He proposes to dedicate funds only to "productive" studies such as engineering, nursing, etc.

In any case, misuse of a hammer is not avoided by throwing the hammer away. You know. If someone picks up the hammer from the wrong side you teach him how to take up the hammer. Otherwise, he won't be able to nail.
If all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 08:35 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by David Mo
This is absolutely consistent with 30% reduction in the public university budget in response to its protests against the government.
I don't see the link. Is it just a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc or do you have some evidence about the vindictive development you're pointing to?

In my understanding what Bolsonaro is saying -a different thing will be what he'll have effectively done- is a Joe Six-pack kind of reaction to the fact that there are excess of graduated and failing students in human sciences and a severe deficit in technically prepared people. Within my acquaintances I personally know of two cases of Argentine electricians (a 7-year high school instead of the normal 5-year studies) working in Brazil and earning "fortunes" -from the local standpoint-, the like of 3 thou international dollars pocket money a month after discounts, pension and health plans and taxes.

Brazil resembles Argentina in the 70s and 80s, with her architects, business managers, psychologists and bachelors in education working as taxi drivers (or emigrating if they really wanted to work as architects, business managers, etc). The highest quality chit-chats in public transport you could have anywhere in the world.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
... As in América there are no titles of nobility, people trying to go up in the social ladder strive for getting a diploma so they can add "Dr", "Ing", "Lic" and others before their names a so be "above their fellow citizens". That is done totally free of charge and in many cases without even showing the ability to follow studies in universities, even via good grades in high school or an admission test. Besides that, they want to choose which career are the tax payers to finance and the way they become "outstanding people" in their societies. In many cases they choose short careers, free from math and other dunce-revealing content, that is, they choose what we call "soft studies", full of nice vocabulary, related to subjects that might show they understand the world around them. Psychology, social studies, philosophy and others are their choice with complete independence of whether more "pros" in those fields are needed and investing public funding in "ennobling" them is sound or not.

Bolsonaro is an animal, but he's not wrong about this....
If your complaint is one of rampant "title-itis" to go through the motions, I get it. Softer disciplines in that regard serve to enable the charade.
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
...The OP clearly says "returns to the taxpayer" like their health, their animal's health or a technical problem solved. In short, anything that increases GDP by getting any useful* goods or services different from resented taxi drivers who couldn't do it, unemployed "lic"s with aspirations and the occasional "wages paid with public funds for producing ideologized snow jobs" or the existence of this very thread which is a good example of useless social investment.
My goodness! Having a bad day?

To all of that I would say: The Egyptians were successful for millennia, but stagnant, eventually overtaken as the Bronze Age ended. The Romans were adept at technology and consistently sought and introduced innovations. Of the two, Roman civilization left the greater mark, even if it lasted far less time. My point being that there are two drivers of economic and social success, one shorter term and potent, commerce, and one longer term and less noticeable, knowledge creation. The latter is the real tide that lifts all boats permanently, ratcheting up civilization; shoulders of giants, etc. Given, lastly, that knowledge creation and insight can be stimulated by both fact and fancy – speculative madness, if you will – there is most definitely a place in society for that which is not bread-for-today alone.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:28 PM   #11
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I would argue that it is the proper job of government to enable bread for today, and leave it up to free citizens, acting privately, to determine what kind of lasting legacy their culture will produce.

No government should be in the business of spending blood and treasure to impress historians a thousand years hence.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 04:27 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post

My goodness! Having a bad day?
No, just a frank and realistic one.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
To all of that I would say: The Egyptians were successful for millennia, but stagnant, eventually overtaken as the Bronze Age ended. The Romans were adept at technology and consistently sought and introduced innovations. Of the two, Roman civilization left the greater mark, even if it lasted far less time. My point being that there are two drivers of economic and social success, one shorter term and potent, commerce, and one longer term and less noticeable, knowledge creation. The latter is the real tide that lifts all boats permanently, ratcheting up civilization; shoulders of giants, etc. Given, lastly, that knowledge creation and insight can be stimulated by both fact and fancy – speculative madness, if you will – there is most definitely a place in society for that which is not bread-for-today alone.
Without falling in the apparent dicotomy in theprestige's -with whom I partially agree in this subject- I want to ask you if you think that having a lot of dunces studying to become scribes would have made the difference for Egypt. Is innovation inherent to dullness? Did Ancient Egyptians have a stick up their sphynxes because they hadn't given an opportunity to the stupid to become doctors?

Because we're really talking about that, not about what makes civilization progress through the ages.

What Bolsonaro suggests doesn't imply "**** phylosophy" but "look, children, we can't have 200,000 of you studying philosophy and only 1,000 studying how to keep the electric energy reaching the consumers; we'd better select the 50,000 more qualified of you via your high school notes, your Brazilian SAT and/or an admission exam; you will able to try as many times you want, at least twice a year, before each semester. If you want to become a net electrician, you only have to have good grades"

And finally, this thread belongs to the political section. It doesn't belong to philosophy, religion e inda mais just because the twit contains the word "philosophy". That's what university teaches those who deserve it.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 04:53 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
...promises the same quality of this
Lovely dismissal there.

The point I hope I was making was that the Brazilian president is the product of a culture that does not value creativity. It sees value only in consumption. The skills he is promoting are all to do with consumption, not creativity. He does not allow that this consumption be questioned. That is rebellion against him, wrong-think. The populace must not consider that they can conceive of better ideas than he has for them. It is the dictum of a dictator, who does your thinking for you. In other words, slaves. And slaves my not be educated to believe they can out-think their dear leader.

You recall the old 60's rebel slogan: Consume, be silent, die? That's what Bolsonaro wants.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 04:59 PM   #14
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Yeah, teaching philosophy leads people to thinking about dangerous things, like freedom and the importance of not blindly following your leaders. Bolsonaro can't have that.....
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Old 3rd June 2019, 06:21 PM   #15
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Do explain how can exist a dictator who cannot get basic laws approved by the congress nor favourable rulings by the supreme court.

There's a lot of special pleading going on here all mounted on an extraordinary ignorance of what is happening in Brazil today.

With identical quality I can easily interpret a lot of what has been said here as Bolsonaro being simply denied his freedom of speech.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The point I hope I was making was that the Brazilian president is the product of a culture that does not value creativity. It sees value only in consumption. The skills he is promoting are all to do with consumption, not creativity. He does not allow that this consumption be questioned. That is rebellion against him, wrong-think. The populace must not consider that they can conceive of better ideas than he has for them. It is the dictum of a dictator, who does your thinking for you. In other words, slaves. And slaves my not be educated to believe they can out-think their dear leader.
Speaking of consumption, I hope you buy your non sequiturs with a wholesaler, to save some money.

Yes, medicine has to do with consumption and professions that belong to humanas like History and Archaeology are widely creative (like Schlieman's Priam's treasure for instance) -and don't forget Theology, the most creative of them all- while other profession like architecture, industrial design and computer sciences are not creative at all .

The problem, Norman, is that you have an ideologized conclusion you're trying to sell here and you take the facts and chop grossly first their edges and later their cores until you have some frankenstein that may fit that conclusion, taking a tweet from Bolsonaro and crocheting it into him being a Kim Jong-un.

Be as creative as you want, but remember there's no way back from ridiculousness.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 06:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Do explain how can exist a dictator who cannot get basic laws approved by the congress nor favourable rulings by the supreme court.

There's a lot of special pleading going on here all mounted on an extraordinary ignorance of what is happening in Brazil today.

With identical quality I can easily interpret a lot of what has been said here as Bolsonaro being simply denied his freedom of speech.



Speaking of consumption, I hope you buy your non sequiturs with a wholesaler, to save some money.

Yes, medicine has to do with consumption and professions that belong to humanas like History and Archaeology are widely creative (like Schlieman's Priam's treasure for instance) -and don't forget Theology, the most creative of them all- while other profession like architecture, industrial design and computer sciences are not creative at all .

The problem, Norman, is that you have an ideologized conclusion you're trying to sell here and you take the facts and chop grossly first their edges and later their cores until you have some frankenstein that may fit that conclusion, taking a tweet from Bolsonaro and crocheting it into him being a Kim Jong-un.

Be as creative as you want, but remember there's no way back from ridiculousness.
You like the guy. Admit it.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 06:55 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
You like the guy. Admit it.
To me he's as unpresentable evangelic bigoted homophobic chauvinistic gorila (in the Argentine sense). I would have probably voted Meirelles in the first round and nullify my vote in the second round.

But I'm not ideologized and I'm not going to twist any reality to satisfy any ideological needs as you and David did, nor tolerate others doing so. Less in a forum about scepticism, where it is a shame to do the first and overlook the second.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 10:01 PM   #18
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So Bolsonaro doesn't like gender studies*, philosophy and sociology, and he doesn't want to fund them anymore because they aren't as useful as engineering and medicine (both human and veterinary), he says.
Is it possible that his reason for disliking gender studies is that he's a homophobe? And is it possible that he doesn't like philosophy and sociology because many philosophers and sociologists oppose him, and not because their fields of study aren't useful?
Do you have to be a fan of gender studies, philosophy and sociology to think that this is the case?
I'm not, but not because I think that they're useless. I just think that they often produce ideology rather than knowledge, which is why politicians both like and hate them: However, they find them useful whenever they can refer to them as reasons for their politics. And I think that Bolsonaro's reason for wanting to eliminate them isn't that they produce ideology, but that they often don't produce his kind of ideology. He will have absolutely nothing against philosophers and sociologist who support him, and he will do whatever he can to support those philosophers and sociologists in return.

Human sciences targeted by Bolsonaro: “Censorship and persecution,” expert says - Coordinator of Campaign for the Right to Education says budget cut is “absurd” and “ideologically-motivated” (Brasil de Fato, May 2, 2019)

* Brazil's Bolsonaro Takes on Philosophy, Sociology (Inside Higher Ed, April 29, 2019)


ETA: There's no reason to think that engineers, veterinarians and medical doctors can't be critical thinkers without help from philosophy and sociology. Critical thinking doesn't depend on the existence of the two faculties.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 10:14 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
... I want to ask you if you think that having a lot of dunces studying to become scribes would have made the difference for Egypt. Is innovation inherent to dullness? Did Ancient Egyptians have a stick up their sphynxes because they hadn't given an opportunity to the stupid to become doctors?

Because we're really talking about that, not about what makes civilization progress through the ages.
The topic touches on both aspects, as I pointed out.

Though he was no genius, check out Boorstin's The Discoverers: A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself and The Creators: A History of Heroes of the Imagination. Both wonderfully capture how preconceptions must be dispelled before each advancing step of scientific insight can see the light, usually accompanied by full intellectual echo in the arts and reining worldviews. All, er, soft stuff.

Quote:
What Bolsonaro suggests doesn't imply "**** phylosophy" but "look, children, we can't have 200,000 of you studying philosophy and only 1,000 studying how to keep the electric energy reaching the consumers; we'd better select the 50,000 more qualified of you via your high school notes, your Brazilian SAT and/or an admission exam; you will able to try as many times you want, at least twice a year, before each semester. If you want to become a net electrician, you only have to have good grades"
To that I'd say, "Dear Bolsonaro: Look, lollipop, worry about your own science denial and dying ecosystems; I'll take care of my own house, as it seems far tidier and more sustainable than yours, thank ye kindly."

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And finally, this thread belongs to the political section. It doesn't belong to philosophy, religion e inda mais just because the twit contains the word "philosophy". That's what university teaches those who deserve it.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 11:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Do explain how can exist a dictator who cannot get basic laws approved by the congress nor favourable rulings by the supreme court.

There's a lot of special pleading going on here all mounted on an extraordinary ignorance of what is happening in Brazil today.

With identical quality I can easily interpret a lot of what has been said here as Bolsonaro being simply denied his freedom of speech.



Speaking of consumption, I hope you buy your non sequiturs with a wholesaler, to save some money.

Yes, medicine has to do with consumption and professions that belong to humanas like History and Archaeology are widely creative (like Schlieman's Priam's treasure for instance) -and don't forget Theology, the most creative of them all- while other profession like architecture, industrial design and computer sciences are not creative at all .

The problem, Norman, is that you have an ideologized conclusion you're trying to sell here and you take the facts and chop grossly first their edges and later their cores until you have some frankenstein that may fit that conclusion, taking a tweet from Bolsonaro and crocheting it into him being a Kim Jong-un.

Be as creative as you want, but remember there's no way back from ridiculousness.
Presidents who only communicate through twitters pose a problem: we don't know if they are stupid or deliberately ambiguous. Or both. In any case, they address people who don't like it or who are not able to read more than 300 words. And this is a problem.

Talking and reading is not just being able to decipher simple phrases. It is being able to think and refer to complicated problems that cannot be solved with 200 words and a simple slogan. The more complex the problem, the more complex the language. The theory of relativity is not explained on a twitter. And this also implies knowing things about society, ethics, language and other matters that are not nursing or engineering.

It's not about "creativity" —creativity is also necessary in architecture or medicine. It is knowing a wide and complex field of human relations and problems that is often called "humanities".

Useful skills for understanding and communicating this complex field are not innate. They are learned through a continuous process of debate and reflection that encompasses all levels of education.
We can discuss whether some issues are useful or not. But what Bolsonaro questions - and almost all ultraconservative politicians - is a model of society that was ideally founded in Greece and is still a model in our open societies. Culture is not just what we consume.

(I'm sorry, this is the problem of the utility of philosophy. And this is a thread about philosophy. Do you think you can separate theory from practice?)

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Old 4th June 2019, 01:01 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
ETA: There's no reason to think that engineers, veterinarians and medical doctors can't be critical thinkers without help from philosophy and sociology. Critical thinking doesn't depend on the existence of the two faculties.
And that would be true. Except when one finds that one has none of those only graduate philosophers. Then what? Gaze at each others navels, I suppose. That will definitely feed people, right?
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
ETA: There's no reason to think that engineers, veterinarians and medical doctors can't be critical thinkers without help from philosophy and sociology. Critical thinking doesn't depend on the existence of the two faculties.
Of course, but they do not teach critical concepts about the past, society or morality. We are talking about the educational system.
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:22 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

https://www.brasildefato.com.br/quem-somos/
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:55 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
We can discuss whether some issues are useful or not. But what Bolsonaro questions - and almost all ultraconservative politicians - is a model of society that was ideally founded in Greece and is still a model in our open societies. Culture is not just what we consume.
That's what you extrapolate from it. And you extrapolate much and far! I'm certain it's much more primitive than that.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
(I'm sorry, this is the problem of the utility of philosophy. And this is a thread about philosophy. Do you think you can separate theory from practice?)
No, you have to make your extrapolations just for the thread to sway in the edge of this subforum. The subject is entirely political -and involves as much philosophy as any garden variety political problem harboured in the proper subforum-

"Bolsonaro against the Greeks. Let's keep this thread in the philosophy section!" What a stretch!

The fact is that Bolsonaro impersonates Trump without having support in the congress nor in the superior federal tribunal, and his office not having as many arbitrary attributes as the POTUS' has. He's a plain ignorant who seized the chance to get the power using a few platitudes in a society tired of the corruption, ineffectiveness and corporate doctrine of the Latin American pseudo-left.

The flavour of last May was Bolsonaro going one step up and one step down with his gun "discontrol" decrees. It sufficed that justice Rosa Weber called the executive power to do some explaining for Bolsonaro to paddle back a significant portion of his decree. The whole gun "discontrol" controversy remains to be solved by the Superior Federal Tribunal who most probably will end up declaring it illegal. And I'm waiting for it because what Bolsonaro has already done implies more illegal guns entering Argentina through the Triple Frontier.

That's the reality behind this so-called "dictator" who better resembles Dick Dastardly (Pierre Nodoyuna) than Stalin.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:00 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
To that I'd say, "Dear Bolsonaro: Look, lollipop, worry about your own science denial and dying ecosystems; I'll take care of my own house, as it seems far tidier and more sustainable than yours, thank ye kindly."

This doesn't make any sense.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:00 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
No, you have to make your extrapolations just for the thread to sway in the edge of this subforum. The subject is entirely political -and involves as much philosophy as any garden variety political problem harboured in the proper subforum-

"Bolsonaro against the Greeks. Let's keep this thread in the philosophy section!" What a stretch!
Don't caricature my words. It is not Bolsonaro against the Greeks. I said Bolsonaro was against a model of society that had its origins in Greece. This model involves political, ethical and philosophical concepts that have been discussed by the most important philosophers in Europe, from Plato to Arendt or Habermas. One of the discussions involved is the role of philosophy and science in education. This is the main theme in Plato and is a priority issue in Kant, Rousseau, Arendt or Habermas.

PhilPapers, a philosophical search tool, includes 579 articles in the item “Philosophy of Higher Education”.

My proposal was aimed to the concept of utility and knowledge and the place of humanities in higher education (there was a tense debate about this in my country between two of the most relevant philosophers at time). It seems it is not interesting for you, but extrapolation, in no way.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Interesting reference. Thank you.

See: https://www.brasildefato.com.br/2019...-especialista/ .
O alvo para se retirar investimento – e fazer um processo de focalização de investimentos – justamente está voltado para a faculdades das ciências humanas, e isso se dá por conta dessa perseguição ideológica que está sendo feita, que acredita que, para o desenvolvimento do país, precisa-se investir somente em exatas e biológicas, gerando inovações e tecnologias. Mas, se esquece que a filosofia é a base de todas essas ciências.

É impossível ter um processo de desenvolvimento tecnológico, stricto sensu, bem calcado, se não existisse uma filosofia por trás da matemática. Todas essas questões passam por trás de um pensamento crítico. O cientista, na hora de formular e desenvolver sua pesquisa, precisa pensar. E como se desenvolve o pensamento? Por meio do estudo de diversas disciplinas, inclusive e especialmente, das que derivam da filosofia.
Very interesting.

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Old 10th June 2019, 02:03 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And that would be true. Except when one finds that one has none of those only graduate philosophers. Then what? Gaze at each others navels, I suppose. That will definitely feed people, right?
Is that actually the case, though, or is it mostly or entirely fiction made up to serve as a pretext?
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Old 15th June 2019, 02:45 AM   #29
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The subject of this thread has been overlooked.

The problem I wanted to raise has been overlooked by the participants of this thread. The problem is the kind of "sage men" a society needs to achieve a standard of both material and "spiritual" well-being. Few people deny that an advanced society needs experts in science and technology. Few people deny that along with these is also necessary another type of wisdom that integrates scientific knowledge with political and ethical skills. Bolsonaro seems the exception.
Letting Bolsonaro aside, the problem is summarized in two questions:

Is “wisdom” —in the above sense— innate or learned?

If this is learned, a new question arises:

What is the place to learn wisdom in a democratic society?

These are the issues that have been overlooked in this thread.
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Old 15th June 2019, 03:58 AM   #30
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I'm assuming then you are proposing that philosophy will help with that?
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Old 15th June 2019, 11:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm assuming then you are proposing that philosophy will help with that?
Yes. Philosophy and humanities in general that are the goal of Bolsonaro's attack.
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Old 16th June 2019, 01:10 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Yes. Philosophy and humanities in general that are the goal of Bolsonaro's attack.
Isn't the first step then for you to provide the evidence for that claim?
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Old 16th June 2019, 02:01 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Isn't the first step then for you to provide the evidence for that claim?
Because in order to a wise ethical and political action it is necessary to know as deeply as possible the history and present of humanity, to understand what knowledge is, what is good and other related issues that only the so-called humanities study as a whole.

I don't know if this is what you call "evidence", but it seems to me that it is a compelling reason.

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