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Tags lawsuits , scientology

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Old 20th June 2019, 11:04 AM   #1
wasapi
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Recent lawsuit. Scientology.

I came across this; https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/sc...cid=spartandhp

While I am well aware of the money and power issue, I still wonder how they have gotten away with all of this over so many years. So many horror stories. They need to be gone.

Yeah, it goes beyond free speech and freedom of religion, and is simply criminal.
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:27 PM   #2
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Good article wasapi, be interesting to see how things turn out.

Look at that photo of David Miscavige with that huge welded on smile however. How could anyone doubt his words.
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:37 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I came across this; https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/sc...cid=spartandhp

While I am well aware of the money and power issue, I still wonder how they have gotten away with all of this over so many years. So many horror stories. They need to be gone.

Yeah, it goes beyond free speech and freedom of religion, and is simply criminal.
They have an effective legal force to harass people with SLAP lawsuits, especially people who defect from higher up positions.
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:54 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Good article wasapi, be interesting to see how things turn out.

Look at that photo of David Miscavige with that huge welded on smile however. How could anyone doubt his words.
Oh, at first glance of his photo, I felt a visceral chill down my spine. Just simply scary.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 01:21 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They have an effective legal force to harass people with SLAP lawsuits, especially people who defect from higher up positions.
And their modus operandi is to ruthlessly and relentlessly attack, harass, intimidate and bad-mouth anyone who criticises Miscavage or his Cult (and Scientology is a Cult not a religion)

Their tactics include
  • Publishing lies and untruths about the target. (The USA's very weak libel/slander laws make it difficult for the target to fight back).
  • Attempting to frame targets for crimes they didn't commit.
  • Killing the target's pets.
  • Hiring private investigators to look for things the Cult can use against the target.
  • Attempting to get the target fired from his job or destroying the target's business
  • Never ending frivolous lawsuits.
  • Making obscene phone calls to the target and his family any time of the day or night.
  • Stalking and following the target, usually with a video camera.
  • Taking the target's trash (presumably to sort through it looking for something to use against them).
  • Death threats against the target and/or their family.

Essentially, their entire method is designed to make your life a living hell
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Old 24th June 2019, 07:51 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
[*]Taking the target's trash (presumably to sort through it looking for something to use against them).

For free?! I imagine that's something you could also have a lot of fun with: Fake, misleading documents mixed in with particularly disgusting garbage: baby nappies, pet faeces etc.
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Old 29th June 2019, 08:11 AM   #7
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I've had an antagonistic relationship w/ Scientology since the 90s (debating them in online newsgroups - remember those?). I dislike cults and organized religions in general.

I've watched Leah Remini's show and also HBO's Going Clear, and I don't think it had the effect they wanted. I gotta say I'm not as big on the "this **** needs to be burned down" mindset as I used to be.

With all these claims, I just can't see anywhere where they were actually forced against their will (except for the child aspect, but if they aren't protected by their parents/guardians then a lot of the blame falls on them). They all seem to have voluntarily chosen to stay in an abusive situation. That sucks, and there is definitely grooming that takes place, but at what point do you take responsibility for your own involvement?

Case in point - the guy on Remini's show - Mike Rinder - told of an experience where he was put in "Scientology jail" in St. Pete, FL. It sounded like some kind of gulag - long hard labor, sleeping on the floor, "re-education" sessions, etc - except for one thing: When he got sick of it (after about 3 months I think), HE WALKED OUT! Am I really supposed to feel bad for a guy who voluntarily stayed in an abusive situation because he thought doing so would give him magic powers? (that's why people do Scientology and go through the levels, they believe literal magic powers will be bestowed on them) Am I really supposed to cry for this guy?

If David Miscavige beats you up and you take no action (go to the police, get a restraining order, stop hanging around him, etc), I feel you share some of the blame as well as some of the blame when he abuses others.

The article from the OP says the girl had to escape in a car trunk, but doesn't say why or what the danger was. From Going Clear and Leah's show, there are many stories of people just walking out when they got sick of it. The biggest dangers that followed were being harassed by Scientologists and being shunned by family members that were still in it, but I couldn't find any sense of actual physical danger -which is something that people in other types of abusive relationships actually experience and have to contend with when they try to leave.

I'm starting to feel the whole thing is 20% abusive situation and 80% LARPing.

Although, it's been around long enough now that kids have been raised in it, and that's a huge problem. It should be looked into as any child abuse situation would, with no special pleading whatsoever.

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Old 29th June 2019, 02:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
Case in point - the guy on Remini's show - Mike Rinder - told of an experience where he was put in "Scientology jail" in St. Pete, FL. It sounded like some kind of gulag - long hard labor, sleeping on the floor, "re-education" sessions, etc - except for one thing: When he got sick of it (after about 3 months I think), HE WALKED OUT! Am I really supposed to feel bad for a guy who voluntarily stayed in an abusive situation because he thought doing so would give him magic powers? (that's why people do Scientology and go through the levels, they believe literal magic powers will be bestowed on them) Am I really supposed to cry for this guy?
Keep in mind, that in doing so, he has given up any hope of ever seeing his family again. Rinder hasn't been allowed to see or speak to his children in 12 years, and he is never likely to see them again, ever. The Cult forbids any contact.

Furthermore, the Cult has created websites in Rinder's name, claiming that he has never shown any interest in his children, that he was a wife beater. Here's just one of them

http://www.whoismichaelrinder.com/ar...marriage.html#

(there are many like this but I don't want to link any more because I don't want to give this cult any more oxygen)

His family will have been thoroughly brainwashed to implicitly believe all the bad things the Cult of Scientology says about him.

If you are a member of the Cult of Scientology, you have to know that this is what you will have to face for the rest of your life if you leave and then speak about your experiences. Now its very easy for you to say he could have just walked out, but you need to understand that "just walking out" has very dire consequences.

Your approach seems to be a lot like those who argue that battered women can just walk out of a bad relationship... IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. Stark fear is what keeps battered women from leaving; fear of the consequences if the ex-partner comes looking for her and finds her; fear of what will happen if she gets caught trying to leave. The Cult of Scientology is very much like a vindictive partner who beats you up to keep you in line, and who comes after you if you leave, or try to leave. Just walking away is not as straightforward as you are trying to imply.
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Old 29th June 2019, 03:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Keep in mind, that in doing so, he has given up any hope of ever seeing his family again. Rinder hasn't been allowed to see or speak to his children in 12 years, and he is never likely to see them again, ever. The Cult forbids any contact.

Furthermore, the Cult has created websites in Rinder's name, claiming that he has never shown any interest in his children, that he was a wife beater. Here's just one of them

http://www.whoismichaelrinder.com/ar...marriage.html#

(there are many like this but I don't want to link any more because I don't want to give this cult any more oxygen)

His family will have been thoroughly brainwashed to implicitly believe all the bad things the Cult of Scientology says about him.

If you are a member of the Cult of Scientology, you have to know that this is what you will have to face for the rest of your life if you leave and then speak about your experiences. Now its very easy for you to say he could have just walked out, but you need to understand that "just walking out" has very dire consequences.

Your approach seems to be a lot like those who argue that battered women can just walk out of a bad relationship... IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. Stark fear is what keeps battered women from leaving; fear of the consequences if the ex-partner comes looking for her and finds her; fear of what will happen if she gets caught trying to leave. The Cult of Scientology is very much like a vindictive partner who beats you up to keep you in line, and who comes after you if you leave, or try to leave. Just walking away is not as straightforward as you are trying to imply.
DO NOT put words in my mouth. I explicitly said in my last in my post "I couldn't find any sense of actual physical danger -which is something that people in other types of abusive relationships actually experience and have to contend with when they try to leave."

If family members decide to shun you for leaving an abusive relationship, that's still your choice to make. People under threat of physical violence have much less of a choice.
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Old 29th June 2019, 04:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
DO NOT put words in my mouth. I explicitly said in my last in my post "I couldn't find any sense of actual physical danger -which is something that people in other types of abusive relationships actually experience and have to contend with when they try to leave."

If family members decide to shun you for leaving an abusive relationship, that's still your choice to make. People under threat of physical violence have much less of a choice.
Do you have children?
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Old 29th June 2019, 11:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
If David Miscavige beats you up and you take no action (go to the police, get a restraining order, stop hanging around him, etc), I feel you share some of the blame as well as some of the blame when he abuses others.
"It's not my fault that I hit you, Bob. It's that guy over there. He made me do it. Why is he still hanging around? If he would just leave me alone I would stop hitting you!"


Quote:
I've had an antagonistic relationship w/ Scientology since the 90s (debating them in online newsgroups -
Ah, I understand now. You're that guy!
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Old 30th June 2019, 07:27 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
"It's not my fault that I hit you, Bob. It's that guy over there. He made me do it. Why is he still hanging around? If he would just leave me alone I would stop hitting you!"


Ah, I understand now. You're that guy!
Abusers are emboldened when they do not have consequences for their actions (such as the people they abuse leaving).

You understand what?
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Old 30th June 2019, 02:38 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Do you have children?

Brings to mind the Turpin case only relatively recently in the news.

Thirteen "children" (up to the age of 29) imprisoned by parents. One of the children escaped and contacted the police who found the house with the others living in squalid conditions. Seven of the children where legal adults - over 18 years old.

So what kept these unfortunates in that house? Common sense tells us that many opportunities must have presented themselves, for those confined to break out before this. Why didn't they?

Those who glibly ask the question - "why didn't you walk out?", to women in an abusive relationship, and others locked into a religious cult, should ponder this question.
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Old 30th June 2019, 05:32 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Brings to mind the Turpin case only relatively recently in the news.

Thirteen "children" (up to the age of 29) imprisoned by parents. One of the children escaped and contacted the police who found the house with the others living in squalid conditions. Seven of the children where legal adults - over 18 years old.

So what kept these unfortunates in that house? Common sense tells us that many opportunities must have presented themselves, for those confined to break out before this. Why didn't they?

Those who glibly ask the question - "why didn't you walk out?", to women in an abusive relationship, and others locked into a religious cult, should ponder this question.
Comparing these types of stories of people thrown into situations involuntarily and groomed from young age to adults of sound mind pledging their allegiance to a crackpot cult offering magic powers (some, like Rinder, who rise through the ranks and actually work as someone who harasses the people who leave and then is shocked that he is harassed when he leaves) is incredibly irresponsible and just plain awful.
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Old 30th June 2019, 05:45 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
Comparing these types of stories of people thrown into situations involuntarily and groomed from young age to adults of sound mind pledging their allegiance to a crackpot cult offering magic powers (some, like Rinder, who rise through the ranks and actually work as someone who harasses the people who leave and then is shocked that he is harassed when he leaves) is incredibly irresponsible and just plain awful.

Oh really? Must mend my ways.

I was just pointing out that people find themselves trapped in situations were there is no easy way out, so just suggesting they should take a walk, implying it's their fault for staying, is not fair.

There are many ways someone can find themselves in the trapped situation, and how they get there may have little relevance. More to the point is how tight are the bonds that bind them.
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Old 30th June 2019, 05:49 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh really? Must mend my ways.

I was just pointing out that people find themselves trapped in situations were there is no easy way out, so just suggesting they should take a walk, implying it's their fault for staying, is not fair.

There are many ways someone can find themselves in the trapped situation, and how they get there may have little relevance. More to the point is how tight are the bonds that bind them.
Never said it wasn't tough, just said I'm not going to cry about it and don't see why anyone should outside of his own personal acquaintances. All choices have consequences. You and some other folks in this thread who keep comparing Rinder's situation to someone trying to actually survive an involuntary abusive situation/lifestyle are grossly out of line in my humble opinion. If you don't agree so be it.
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Old 30th June 2019, 05:53 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
Comparing these types of stories of people thrown into situations involuntarily and groomed from young age to adults of sound mind pledging their allegiance to a crackpot cult offering magic powers (some, like Rinder, who rise through the ranks and actually work as someone who harasses the people who leave and then is shocked that he is harassed when he leaves) is incredibly irresponsible and just plain awful.
I've watched all the seasons and episodes so far. I have yet to see one where Rinder said or acted as if he was shocked that he was harassed. Quite the opposite in fact, he has said a few times that he knew what he would be in for - and THAT is what makes it so hard for the "woke" ones to leave.

I ask again.... do you have children?
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Old 30th June 2019, 06:10 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I've watched all the seasons and episodes so far. I have yet to see one where Rinder said or acted as if he was shocked that he was harassed. Quite the opposite in fact, he has said a few times that he knew what he would be in for - and THAT is what makes it so hard for the "woke" ones to leave.

I ask again.... do you have children?
I love the technique of picking out one little factoid to challenge while completely ignoring how you were called out for unfairly twisting my words.

I'm not going to answer your question because doing so would ruin the "gotcha" you're over-reaching for and that wouldn't be nice.
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Old 30th June 2019, 06:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
I love the technique of picking out one little factoid to challenge while completely ignoring how you were called out for unfairly twisting my words.
If you don't want to be called on falsehoods, then its simple - don't post them. Do your research first, and make sure you actually know what you are talking about

Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
I'm not going to answer your question because doing so would ruin the "gotcha" you're over-reaching for and that wouldn't be nice.
OK, I'll answer it for you!

You don't have children. If you did, you would understand what an emotionally wrenching dilemma it is for someone trying to make a decision about leaving an abusive situation they were in, understanding that, in all likelihood, they would not only never see their children again, but also knowing that the abuser will do everything they can to turn their children against them.

If I'm wrong, and you do have children, and you don't have any understanding of the above, then I feel really sorry for them.
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Old 30th June 2019, 07:20 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
Comparing these types of stories of people thrown into situations involuntarily and groomed from young age to adults of sound mind pledging their allegiance to a crackpot cult offering magic powers (some, like Rinder, who rise through the ranks and actually work as someone who harasses the people who leave and then is shocked that he is harassed when he leaves) is incredibly irresponsible and just plain awful.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

One might suggest that "pledging their allegiance to a crackpot cult offering magic powers" is evidence to the contrary.
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Old 30th June 2019, 07:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Assumes facts not in evidence.

One might suggest that "pledging their allegiance to a crackpot cult offering magic powers" is evidence to the contrary.
Let's keep picking minor things to death while ignoring the large picture of several posters comparing adults voluntarily joining an organization that mistreats them and they can walk away from with their physical safety intact to people caught up in involuntary abusive situations where their physical safety is in danger.
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Old 30th June 2019, 07:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Assumes facts not in evidence.

One might suggest that "pledging their allegiance to a crackpot cult offering magic powers" is evidence to the contrary.
Not only that, but many (if not most) current adult Scientologists are second generation.... their grandparents joined Hubbard's loony cult back when it was called The Dianetics Foundation. Their parents were Scientologists for all their adult lives. The current second generation have never known any other way of life.

Expecting everyone like that to suddenly wake up and go, "hey this is bad, I'm leaving" is just preposterous.
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Old 1st July 2019, 05:29 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
Let's keep picking minor things to death while ignoring the large picture of several posters comparing adults voluntarily joining an organization that mistreats them and they can walk away from with their physical safety intact to people caught up in involuntary abusive situations where their physical safety is in danger.

Why is it "minor".

Did you think it was minor when you wrote it?
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why is it "minor".

Did you think it was minor when you wrote it?
Try again.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:46 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
Let's keep picking minor things to death while ignoring the large picture of several posters comparing adults voluntarily joining an organization that mistreats them and they can walk away from with their physical safety intact to people caught up in involuntary abusive situations where their physical safety is in danger.
We compare them because the are essentiality the same thing.

Does it matter whether the abused person is in the situation voluntarily or compulsorily? Arranged marriages aside, I would argue that a woman in an abusive relationship initially got into that relationship voluntarily, not knowing that her partner was going to turn into an abusive monster.

The same could be said of those who joined the Cult back in the 1960's and 1970s. There was not the wealth of public information back then. There was no internet and nothing at all like Google - the only source of information was radio, television and print media. Scientology was largely uncontroversial for the first 20 years of its existence. Those joining it could not have reasonably bee expected to know or understand what they were getting into.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:54 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
With all these claims, I just can't see anywhere where they were actually forced against their will (except for the child aspect, but if they aren't protected by their parents/guardians then a lot of the blame falls on them). They all seem to have voluntarily chosen to stay in an abusive situation. That sucks, and there is definitely grooming that takes place, but at what point do you take responsibility for your own involvement?
Well, there was this story from a couple years ago:
Secret facilities in Tennessee closed after police find patients held against their will

(Weird. The story is not quite as I remembered reading it at the time and now has a big "Editor's Note" at the beginning. ETA: you can see what the story originally said here.)
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:04 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well, there was this story from a couple years ago:
Secret facilities in Tennessee closed after police find patients held against their will

(Weird. The story is not quite as I remembered reading it at the time and now has a big "Editor's Note" at the beginning. ETA: you can see what the story originally said here.)
That is very weird. I wonder if it's true, or if they were badgered by the scientology lawyer machine to make the change, or both.

This article on heavy.com still asserts it was at least run by a scientologist using scientologist principles: https://heavy.com/news/2017/05/marc-...ers-treatment/

If there are things like this going on, I wonder why they aren't mentioned in Remini's show or the Going Clear doc? I also kept waiting for mention of Lisa McPherson as well. Maybe they mention them in the book and not the movie?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:33 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
That is very weird. I wonder if it's true, or if they were badgered by the scientology lawyer machine to make the change, or both.
Just my guess, but I think the Scientology lawyers threatened to sue them and so they changed the story. The properties may not have been owned by the church itself and so they claimed that it had nothing to do with the church.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:00 AM   #29
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I've spoken with an ex-Scientologist about their personal experience of participating in the involuntary detention of members. It was partially that experience that led to them becoming an ex-Scientologist.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:51 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
I've had an antagonistic relationship w/ Scientology since the 90s (debating them in online newsgroups - remember those?). I dislike cults and organized religions in general.

I've watched Leah Remini's show and also HBO's Going Clear, and I don't think it had the effect they wanted. I gotta say I'm not as big on the "this **** needs to be burned down" mindset as I used to be.

With all these claims, I just can't see anywhere where they were actually forced against their will...
(rest of post snipped so as not to take up too much space)
With respect, you may want to do read up on the psychology of abusive relationships. Can't think of any good sources to give you, but in short, calling them voluntary that you can just walk out of greatly oversimplifies things. There doesn't need to be a threat of any kind to make it hard to escape abusive or otherwise unhealthy relationships. Heck, even "adults of sound mind" may not even recognise their relationship as abusive in the first place. Not because they're stupid or na´ve, but because of various pretty complex psychological reactions you experience when you're in such a relationship. Physical threats don't even need to enter the picture.

Scientologists, just like many abusive boyfriends and girlfriends come to think of it, deliberately isolate you from your loved ones so that they are pretty much all you have. If you walk out on them, you are alone. You may not even be able to easily reconnect with your former friends and family if you've been manipulated enough by your partner to think too ill of them.

How many people do you think go into relationships thinking "hmm, it this turns abusive I'll just stay, that sounds like a plan"? It's so much more hard and complex than that.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 03:27 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And their modus operandi is to ruthlessly and relentlessly attack, harass, intimidate and bad-mouth anyone who criticises Miscavage or his Cult (and Scientology is a Cult not a religion)

Their tactics include
  • Publishing lies and untruths about the target. (The USA's very weak libel/slander laws make it difficult for the target to fight back).
  • Attempting to frame targets for crimes they didn't commit.
  • Killing the target's pets.
  • Hiring private investigators to look for things the Cult can use against the target.
  • Attempting to get the target fired from his job or destroying the target's business
  • Never ending frivolous lawsuits.
  • Making obscene phone calls to the target and his family any time of the day or night.
  • Stalking and following the target, usually with a video camera.
  • Taking the target's trash (presumably to sort through it looking for something to use against them).
  • Death threats against the target and/or their family.

Essentially, their entire method is designed to make your life a living hell
I had no idea they did things like this. I thought it was just the shunning and the lawsuits. This is dreadful. Sounds more like a street gang than a church.

Then again, I don't know if it's that much worsen than many other churches throughout history.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 04:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've spoken with an ex-Scientologist about their personal experience of participating in the involuntary detention of members. It was partially that experience that led to them becoming an ex-Scientologist.
I'd be very interested in hearing about that experience. I can't understand why things like that are not mentioned in the Going Clear doc or Remini's show. Remini especially seems on a mission to take it down, but none of her claims have that kind of bite. If people are held against their will and abused it would seem like that would be the main thing to expose.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:40 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
With respect, you may want to do read up on the psychology of abusive relationships. Can't think of any good sources to give you, but in short, calling them voluntary that you can just walk out of greatly oversimplifies things.
I generally think it's bad taste to go into anything personal on this board, but since this keeps coming up: I grew up in a very abusive household. As an adult I've worked in rape crisis centers and domestic violence shelters. I've worked alongside DYFS employees and social workers. I've also played in many rock bands and have witnessed many forms of addiction and the abusive relationships they are magnetically attracted to.

In the real world (as opposed to online) I've been told I'm overly sympathetic to abuse victims and overly vindictive to abusers. Part of getting victims out of their situations is getting them to realize their contribution to the abuse cycle. It took me a long time to be able to communicate that effectively because of my natural proclivity to side 100% w/ the victims of abuse.

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
There doesn't need to be a threat of any kind to make it hard to escape abusive or otherwise unhealthy relationships. .
Agreed. But comparing situations where there is threatened or actual violence to situations where there isn't is still apples to oranges. What I'm trying to point out - unsuccessfully apparently - is that there are levels to this stuff. This is a nuance that people who haven't been educated about abuse (either through study or personal experience, or both) don't often realize.

All abuse is bad, but they are not all equal in their badness.

Would you tell an ex-POW that his experience and Rinder's experience in Scientology jail (the one he literally walked out of) are on the same level? Even if the day to day interrogations/torture/labor/etc were exactly the same, Rinder still went in voluntarily and left when he wanted. And he thought he'd get magic powers that would put him way above the average person if he stayed w/ the group. No doubt him leaving had terrible consequences, but he had choices and his physical safety was not in danger.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:02 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
I'd be very interested in hearing about that experience. I can't understand why things like that are not mentioned in the Going Clear doc or Remini's show. Remini especially seems on a mission to take it down, but none of her claims have that kind of bite. If people are held against their will and abused it would seem like that would be the main thing to expose.
There's some information about it in the book Bare Faced Messiah by Russell Miller, but my interview with the scientologist in question (who had been an auditor with the Sea Org and at the time of my interview was listed as a Suppresive Person which is why I have always kept their identity private) is on a podcast that is no longer available, sorry. I'm sure there are other sources you could seek out if you're interested in progressing beyond that one.
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