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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , JFK assassination , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 20th November 2017, 09:36 AM   #3081
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Are you referring to the funeral arrangements document that notes the "11 P.M." reference AFTER it mentions the casket delivery, which was at 2 AM?
You didn't read my prior posts in their entirety. Or you "Yadda Yadda'd" your way through them.

Let's review:

There is plenty of contemporaneous documentation that the Gawler's morticians weren't involved in the autopsy at any point, didn't see any of it, and didn't gain access to the body until the autopsy was completed.

First, there's this, what you call "the funeral arrangements document" that is a contemporaneous Gawler Funeral Home document called the "Funeral Arrangements of John F. Kennedy" prepared apparently by the owner himself.
https://www.history-matters.com/arch...d134_0001a.htm
GAWLER AND HAGAN CONTINUED MEETINGS WITH MDW, HOSPITAL STAFF, SECRET SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF STATE, ETC. AT THIS MEETING WE WERE INFORMED TO STANDBY, UNTIL ALL EXAMINATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY, WERE COMPLETED.

CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963
. UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF MR. HAGAN, THE EMBALMING, COSMETICS, RESTORATION (EXTENSIVE CRANIAL DAMAGE), DRESSING AND CASKETING WAS COMPLETED BY 4 A.M. ON SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 1963.


So from this document we know two things: the morticians were held back until the autopsy completed, and the morticians started their work sometime after 11pm.

We also know that document isn't in strict chronological order as I documented previously.1

So your argument that the above (which mentions 11:00pm on Friday) follows the 2:00am on Saturday mention of the casket, is shown to be meaningless.

Then there is a separate document that you yourself cited, but ignored the times referenced therein. I covered it in this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3029

To summarize that post, Joe Hagan, whose recollections you have cited, was shown the contemporaneous documentation of the "Arrangements File" as reported by the ARRB here:
https://www.history-matters.com/arch...d182_0005a.htm ((see page five).

Hagan confirmed it reported the morticians started their work at 11:45pm on Friday and concluded at 3:30am on Saturday. He also said those times were noted in his own handwriting. The contemporaneous documentation of that Gawler's document takes precedence over any recollections Hagan made years or decades after the event that you care to quote, or any hearsay from any book published years after the event you wish to utilize.

So from that document alone we know the morticians started their work at about 11:45pm on Friday and concluded at about 3:30am on Saturday morning.

Then there's this additional Gawler's document with Joe E Hagan's initials on it says the "arrangements" were at 11:00pm:
https://www.history-matters.com/arch...d129_0001a.htm.

So this document might reference the fact that they were given the go-ahead to start work at that time, which means the autopsy was completed shortly before 11:00pm. It is in minor conflict with the 11:45pm time on the other Gawler document, but the morticians certainly started their work no sooner than 11:00pm and no later than 11:45pm on Friday according to the contemporaneous Gawler's evidence. Which means the autopsy was completed by before that time range of 11:00pm - 11:45pm.

There's also another contemporaneous document independent of anything from Gawler's, the contemporaneous FBI report of Sibert and O'Neill, both of which note the morticians did not gain access to the body until after the autopsy was completed. It says that here: http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/S-O-3.GIF and you even quoted the pertinent passage here:
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
... the Sibert and O'Neil report states:
At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for burial...
So, again, the Gawler's morticians didn't see any of the autopsy according to the contemporaneous evidence. They entered the autopsy room once the autopsy was completed.

And according to the Gawler's evidence, they started their work somewhere between 11:00pm - 11:45pm.

Your arguments are a convoluted series of taking quotes out of context, followed by the assumption that a document is in strict chronological order, followed by recollections from years or decades later, followed by some hearsay, followed by logical fallacies of assuming what you need to prove, all to reach your desired conclusion that the autopsy concluded at about 2:30am on Saturday.

It didn't.

The evidence says the autopsy ended about 11:00pm on Friday night, which reasonably agrees with Dr. Humes estimate from his Warren Commission testimony here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/humes.htm
Mr. SPECTER - What time did this autopsy end?
Commander HUMES - At approximately 11 p.m.


It does not come close to confirming your argument that the autopsy concluded about 2:30am on Saturday morning.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I think we're done here.
You've been done for a while. You just didn't realize it until now.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
As far as I'm concerned, I believe the autopsy ended at 2:30 AM, not 11 PM.
Nobody cares what you think. Or what your beliefs are. This is based on evidence, not faith.
The evidence establishes your belief is wrong.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
11 PM is probably a lie.
The evidence establishes your above statement is demonstrably false.

Hank
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Old 20th November 2017, 09:40 AM   #3082
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Because documents written after the events, can ONLY list them in chronological order?
I already exposed that as an unfounded assumption of MicahJava in this post:

Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Your presumption is that all of this stuff is in strict chronological order, but you only presume that, you don't establish it.

And that's clearly not the case. Look at the first four paragraphs on page one: https://www.history-matters.com/arch...d134_0001a.htm

There's a phone call at 4:25pm, then shortly thereafter, they are informed some personnel will be arriving to rehearse the deathwatch. They then practice for 'several hours'. That makes it 6:25pm at a minimum (probably after 7:00pm allowing for transport). No matter.

But the next paragraph jumps from at least 6:25pm BACK to 5:58pm to detail what happened then.

And in the fourth paragraph we're back to "approximately 5:00pm".

So the document isn't in strict chronological order. Your presumption is unfounded, and the order of something being listed after something else doesn't imply it happened afterward.
So we know he's making just another in a long line of unwarranted assumptions to further his argument.

We also know since it's been established as not in chronological order, he will continue to insist it must be, as in the post you responded to.

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Old 20th November 2017, 09:56 AM   #3083
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If you can't handle facts and evidence, you could always choose to not participate in this specific thread instead of hoping my account is disabled.
I love facts and evidence. Are you planning on providing any?
Note: You have yet to do so.

Last edited by CORed; 20th November 2017 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 20th November 2017, 10:00 AM   #3084
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"The conspiracy community regularly seizes on one slip of the tongue, misunderstanding, or slight discrepancy to defeat twenty pieces of solid evidence; accepts one witness of theirs, even if he or she is a provable nut, as being far more credible than ten normal witnesses on the other side; treats rumors, even questions, as the equivalent of proof; leaps from the most minuscule of discoveries to the grandest of conclusions; and insists that the failure to explain everything perfectly negates all that is explained." -- Vincent Bugliosi

We've been seeing exactly that from MicahJava since he started posting here.

The arguments about when the autopsy ended is just the latest in a long line of failed arguments about minutia by MJ to attempt to prove a grand conspiracy.

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Old 20th November 2017, 10:04 AM   #3085
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I love facts and evidence. Are you planning on providing any
Note: You have yet to do so.
He has provided many... They don't support, and often scuttle, his own claims, but they are there...
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Old 20th November 2017, 07:21 PM   #3086
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Because documents written after the events, can ONLY list them in chronological order?
Memento must confuse the heck out of MJ
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Old 20th November 2017, 08:07 PM   #3087
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Memento must confuse the heck out of MJ
especially when he finds out he's really the Mandarin
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Old 20th November 2017, 09:11 PM   #3088
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Hank, I think I now understand the passage in the funeral arrangements memo "CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963". When being interviewed by the ARRB, Joseph E. Hagan could not recognize this document when showed it and said that Joseph H. Gawler probably wrote it. By no accounts was Joe Gawler an autopsy witness, at most he probably helped with the 2 AM mahogany casket delivery and might've watched afterwards. As far as he knew, the embalmers John Van Hoesen, Tom Robinson, and Edwin Stroble had gone to the autopsy at 11:00 - 11:45 PM. It was not his business to know that the autopsy technically went on until 2:30 AM while his guys watched and waited. Joe Gawler's job was the paperwork. As I've said before, that document was also written a week after. You citing this is like eating a piece of pizza that you found on the ground and defending your action by saying it was still warm. You still don't know where that came from.

This is a satisfactory explanation for the "11:00 - 11:45 PM" confusion.

P.S. I am having trouble understanding where Joseph E. Hagan was at specific times. If anybody has a copy of Robert Livingstone's books High Treason 2 and/or Killing The Truth, those feature interviews with Hagan so let me know.

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Old 20th November 2017, 10:30 PM   #3089
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If the autopsy “technically “ went on until 2:30 am, which it didn’t, why would clearance be given at 11pm?
Who casually invites more witnesses to an autopsy?
Yes, they had to go back with new information on the neck wound... which why there is an order of work. You don’t call people in until the job is signed off, surely?
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Old Yesterday, 01:01 AM   #3090
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
If the autopsy ďtechnically ď went on until 2:30 am, which it didnít, why would clearance be given at 11pm?
Who casually invites more witnesses to an autopsy?
Yes, they had to go back with new information on the neck wound... which why there is an order of work. You donít call people in until the job is signed off, surely?
Especially with RFK and Jackie watching from above. Come on.
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Old Yesterday, 01:46 AM   #3091
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Especially with RFK and Jackie watching from above. Come on.
The only reason to begin that kind mental gymnastics must be to justify a fairy tale conspiracy.
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Old Yesterday, 07:27 AM   #3092
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Hank, I think I now understand the passage in the funeral arrangements memo "CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963".
Nobody cares what you think. This is about what the evidence says.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
When being interviewed by the ARRB, Joseph E. Hagan could not recognize this document when showed it and said that Joseph H. Gawler probably wrote it. By no accounts was Joe Gawler an autopsy witness, at most he probably helped with the 2 AM mahogany casket delivery and might've watched afterwards.
None of the Gawler's people - including the owner, Joe Gawler - witnessed the autopsy. The contemporaneous evidence makes that clear. See my ten or twenty preceding posts on this subject.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
As far as he knew, the embalmers John Van Hoesen, Tom Robinson, and Edwin Stroble had gone to the autopsy at 11:00 - 11:45 PM.
Nope. The document makes clear they didn't enter the autopsy room until the autopsy was done. They, as well as Joe Gawler, were at Bethesda before then, and told to stand by until the autopsy was completed.

From the Gawler's document you brought up and are now running away from frantically: "AT THIS MEETING WE WERE INFORMED TO STANDBY, UNTIL ALL EXAMINATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY, WERE COMPLETED."

That's Completed. Done. Finished. Ended. Over. Given up the ghost. Moved on to the Great Beyond. Ceased to Be. This parrot is dead!

See my preceding ten or twenty posts on this subject.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
It was not his business to know that the autopsy technically went on until 2:30 AM while his guys watched and waited.
You're back to BEGGING THE QUESTION once more. There's zero contemporaneous evidence the Gawler's people saw any of the autopsy. All the Gawler's documentation, as well as the FBI report, disagrees with your assertion.

Maybe you don't understand how this works. Repeating your argument doesn't make it more true. We've heard your argument. At this point we're looking for the evidence to support your argument. And at this point you're running away from the evidence you brought up. That doesn't help your arguments look more credible.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Joe Gawler's job was the paperwork. As I've said before, that document was also written a week after. You citing this is like eating a piece of pizza that you found on the ground and defending your action by saying it was still warm. You still don't know where that came from.
Hilarious! Truly, you should take this comedy routine on the road.

You were the one that originally cited this document and argued for its importance to your claims in this post:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2872

I only read it at that point and pointed out the parts that disagreed with your contentions.

Now that you find it disagrees with your contentions, you're running away from the document YOU brought up and now comparing it to eating pizza off the ground! Like I said, you flip-flop around from point to point like a fish on a boat deck.

You're the one eating the warmed over something-or-other offal the ground.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
This is a satisfactory explanation for the "11:00 - 11:45 PM" confusion.
There is no confusion except for you, and your desire to move the end of the autopsy to about 2:30am on Saturday morning. The Gawler's documentation says the morticians started their work sometime "after 11pm" on Friday (one piece of documentation gives the more precise time of "11:45pm") and it also says, as does the FBI document by Sibert & O'Neill, that the morticians weren't allowed in the autopsy room until the autopsy was completed.

Completed. Did you look that word up in the dictionary yet?

You don't get to discard all the documentation just because you don't like where it points.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
P.S. I am having trouble understanding where Joseph E. Hagan was at specific times. If anybody has a copy of Robert Livingstone's books High Treason 2 and/or Killing The Truth, those feature interviews with Hagan so let me know.
Joe Hagan probably couldn't tell you. You certainly won't learn the truth about the assassination from selected quotes out of context from interviews conducted by a man intent on making a living off the death of a President 20 or so years after the fact. I'm talking about Livingstone, who went back to that well numerous times as he found more quotes to take out of context.

His books are appropriately named and tell you the contents exactly.

I mean, c'mon, "Killing the Truth"?

He can't be more clear about what's inside.

Hank
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Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM   #3093
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
If the autopsy ďtechnically ď went on until 2:30 am, which it didnít, why would clearance be given at 11pm?
Who casually invites more witnesses to an autopsy?
Yes, they had to go back with new information on the neck wound... which why there is an order of work. You donít call people in until the job is signed off, surely?
I don't think you've been reading the witness statements I've been posting. Government officials at Bethesda actually wanted there to be a good number of witnesses to the autopsy.
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Old Yesterday, 08:34 AM   #3094
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Update: contrary to his 5/17/1996 ARRB interview, Joseph Hagan claimed in his 3/31/1993 interview with Harrison Livingstone that he did indeed write the funeral arrangements memo. I'm pretty confused on when Hagan was and was not in the Bethesda morgue, but so far it seems that he was with Kennedy's aides around midnight as they were picking up the mahogany casket.

Also Hank, I don't think you understand the passage "AT THIS MEETING WE WERE INFORMED TO STANDBY, UNTIL ALL EXAMINATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY, WERE COMPLETED" refers to them being allowed into the morgue to witness the autopsy.

Why don't you post clear a list of evidence you think supports your 11:00 - 11:45 PM contention, and I'll post evidence that the autopsy ended much later with rebuttals to your evidence. I think you will realize yet again you don't have a lot of ground to stand on.
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Old Yesterday, 08:50 AM   #3095
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Update: contrary to his 5/17/1996 ARRB interview, Joseph Hagan claimed in his 3/31/1993 interview with Harrison Livingstone that he did indeed write the funeral arrangements memo.
So we're left with one solid conclusion here. Recollections from 30 or more years after the fact aren't reliable. You just established that yet again. That's assuming Livingstone didn't take stuff out of context or just make it up.

Two! We're left with two solid conclusions here. Recollections aren't worth warmed over pizza that fell on the ground, and after saying you didn't have access to Livingstone's book, you mention something from Livingstone's book. Hilarious.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I'm pretty confused on when Hagan was and was not in the Bethesda morgue, but so far it seems that he was with Kennedy's aides around midnight as they were picking up the mahogany casket.
Doesn't matter. And now you're claiming your primary witness to the autopsy wasn't at the autopsy. Back to the boat deck for you!



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Also Hank, I don't think you understand the passage "AT THIS MEETING WE WERE INFORMED TO STANDBY, UNTIL ALL EXAMINATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY, WERE COMPLETED" refers to them being allowed into the morgue to witness the autopsy.
Nobody cares what you think. And here's why. Let me remind you who was at the meeting.

The meeting referred to mentions the attendees: "GAWLER AND HAGAN CONTINUED MEETINGS WITH MDW, HOSPITAL STAFF, SECRET SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF STATE, ETC. AT THIS MEETING WE WERE INFORMED TO STANDBY, UNTIL ALL EXAMINATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY, WERE COMPLETED."

So you think the meeting was conducted in the autopsy room while the autopsy was ongoing with all those folks? Or was that meeting in a separate meeting room at which point the Gawler's people were "...INFORMED TO STANDBY, UNTIL ALL EXAMINATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY, WERE COMPLETED"?


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Why don't you post clear a list of evidence you think supports your 11:00 - 11:45 PM contention, and I'll post evidence that the autopsy ended much later with rebuttals to your evidence. I think you will realize yet again you don't have a lot of ground to stand on.
Hilarious! Been there, done that. See my last ten or twenty posts on this subject.

This one will work to start: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3081

Pretend some more all the contemporaneous evidence doesn't point to the autopsy being over by the time the morticians got into the autopsy room.

Hank
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Old Yesterday, 08:54 AM   #3096
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't think you've been reading the witness statements I've been posting. Government officials at Bethesda actually wanted there to be a good number of witnesses to the autopsy.
And those witnesses are known and accounted for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F...during_autopsy

Note what it says there:

Others: At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler's Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President's body for viewing and burial (this required 3 to 4 hours [1]):
John VanHoesen
Edwin Stroble
Thomas E. Robinson
Joe Hagen


Keep pushing that rock uphill. The evidence keeps rolling it back down.

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Old Yesterday, 09:03 AM   #3097
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't think you've been reading the witness statements I've been posting. Government officials at Bethesda actually wanted there to be a good number of witnesses to the autopsy.
Yes. Witnesses who were known, trusted, and trained to describe useful information.

I'm going out on a limb, and guessing random strangers weren't being welcomed in there.
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Old Yesterday, 10:34 AM   #3098
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So Hank, your contended pieces of evidence are as follows:

1. The Gawler's Funeral Home "First Call Sheet" which records events of November 22-23,1963

2. The Gawler's "Arrangements File" which records arrangements for President John F. Kennedy's Funeral

3. Gawler's after-action report titled: "Funeral Arrangements for John Fitzgerald Kennedy"--events of November 22,23,24, and 25 are recounted.

4. Dr. Humes' testimony

The Sibert and O'Neil report can not be used as evidence because my argument is that they misunderstood the arrival of the Gawler's team with the conclusion of the autopsy, and left early.

Furthermore, the original copy of the Sibert and O'Neil report lists Joe Hagan's presence as only "MR. HAGEN". The only person listed with a prefix replacing the first name. In my view, this leaves open the possibility that they were just told about Joe Hagan and did not actually see him at the Bethesda morgue. You may not care about history at all, but I am interested in reconciling every available piece of evidence.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc....eId=4&tab=page

Would you like to add anything else?

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Old Yesterday, 10:38 AM   #3099
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Yes. Witnesses who were known, trusted, and trained to describe useful information.

I'm going out on a limb, and guessing random strangers weren't being welcomed in there.
The morticians tasked with restoring Kennedy's body are random strangers? You guessed wrong. The funeral arrangements memo seems to imply that they spent some time viewing the autopsy, and the actual people from Gawler's have described witnessing autopsy procedures before they started their restoration work.
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Old Yesterday, 11:19 AM   #3100
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The morticians tasked with restoring Kennedy's body are random strangers?
Until they got clearance to embalm and remove the body, yes. They aren't part of JFK's retinue. They aren't family. They aren't military. Why on Earth would they be expected to be witness to the autopsy?

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
You guessed wrong.
My guess about not wanting random strangers there, was wrong?
Okay. I'll wait for you to show me evidence of this.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The funeral arrangements memo seems to imply that they spent some time viewing the autopsy,
They say no such thing. They say something very different to your interpretation.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
and the actual people from Gawler's have described witnessing autopsy procedures before they started their restoration work.
People claim all sorts of thing. Unfortunately, showing them to be true, is another matter.
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Old Yesterday, 11:29 AM   #3101
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The morticians tasked with restoring Kennedy's body are random strangers? You guessed wrong. The funeral arrangements memo seems to imply that they spent some time viewing the autopsy, and the actual people from Gawler's have described witnessing autopsy procedures before they started their restoration work.
Random as in they were employees of a commercial business, not doctors or medical professionals who participated in the autopsy.

It's kind of like how many folks claim to have seen The Beatles at Candlestick Park or who claim they were in the same venue during the World Series game when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit - in both cases, there are far more asses than seats.
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #3102
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Random as in they were employees of a commercial business, not doctors or medical professionals who participated in the autopsy.

It's kind of like how many folks claim to have seen The Beatles at Candlestick Park or who claim they were in the same venue during the World Series game when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit - in both cases, there are far more asses than seats.
I saw the Beatles in Busch stadium summer 1966. About 400' away in center field. Acoustics were terrible, they looked like midgets on stage, but it was fun with the girl that accompanied me.
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Old Yesterday, 12:33 PM   #3103
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Random as in they were employees of a commercial business, not doctors or medical professionals who participated in the autopsy.

It's kind of like how many folks claim to have seen The Beatles at Candlestick Park or who claim they were in the same venue during the World Series game when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit - in both cases, there are far more asses than seats.
Or Woodstock!

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Old Yesterday, 12:40 PM   #3104
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Or Woodstock!

Hank
Essentially, but we know how many seats were in Candlestick, and Woodstock was..."festival" seating and they opened the gates to all comers w/o need for tickets.

Long before The Beatles played Candlestick or any of other references cited occurred, my father had a comment on people who claimed to have been in this-or-that military action:

"I bet that If every man that claimed to have crossed the Delaware with George Washington were really there, it wasn't in a row boat, it would have to have been the Queen Mary."

I doubt the JFK assassination is much different.
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Old Yesterday, 01:03 PM   #3105
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post

It's kind of like how many folks claim to have seen The Beatles at Candlestick Park or who claim they were in the same venue during the World Series game when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit - in both cases, there are far more asses than seats.
It's roughly equivalent to the number of London Taxi drivers who claim to have been in the Blind Beggar when one of the Krays killed a man.
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Old Yesterday, 02:40 PM   #3106
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Essentially, but we know how many seats were in Candlestick, and Woodstock was..."festival" seating and they opened the gates to all comers w/o need for tickets.

Long before The Beatles played Candlestick or any of other references cited occurred, my father had a comment on people who claimed to have been in this-or-that military action:

"I bet that If every man that claimed to have crossed the Delaware with George Washington were really there, it wasn't in a row boat, it would have to have been the Queen Mary."

I doubt the JFK assassination is much different.
Yeah, but I really was at Woodstock!1

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Old Yesterday, 03:50 PM   #3107
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Essentially, but we know how many seats were in Candlestick, and Woodstock was..."festival" seating and they opened the gates to all comers w/o need for tickets.

Long before The Beatles played Candlestick or any of other references cited occurred, my father had a comment on people who claimed to have been in this-or-that military action:

"I bet that If every man that claimed to have crossed the Delaware with George Washington were really there, it wasn't in a row boat, it would have to have been the Queen Mary."

I doubt the JFK assassination is much different.
Exactly, that's where half of the JFK-CT books come from, some guy who pushed a gurney at Parkland writes a book about what he heard. Some orderly at Bethesda does the same thing.

It's like the 35,000 guys who claim to have been on the Son Tay Raid, the 8,500 SAS guys who stormed the Iranian Embassy, and so on.

One key feature to the JFK Assassination is that the most important witnesses didn't want to talk about it, and only spoke to law enforcement, and the WC. They never wrote books. Dr. Humes never wrote a book. Jackie gave a detailed interview about what happened in the limo, but it will not see the light of day for another fifty years. The Secret Service detail collaborated on a book that covered all three years (They claim all three shots hit the limo, BTW).

Time moves on and all we are left with are the original archived documents and evidence, and they all point to Lee Oswald acting, or at least shooting alone.
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