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Old 21st March 2017, 09:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Ok, that makes sense, I thought it had something to do with the curvature of the earth being 0.55% of something. I'm not sure what the height of mountains and the depth of ocean trenches has to do with anything though.
To use an illustration I first heard [mumble] years ago, think about an orange. The bumps and dips on an orange are like the mountains and trenches on the earth.

However, the illustration said, the bumps and dips relative to the diameter of the orange are much larger than the mountains and trenches relative to the diameter of the earth. (That is larger than 0.55%)
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Old 21st March 2017, 09:37 PM   #42
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Here's the post.

Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
In our spherical coordinate system, the surface of the Earth varies less than 0.55% of it's mean radius. This would be equivalent to an American football field that varies in elevation by only 0.0005 inches over it's entire surface. I think most people would consider that flats. The Earth is flat in a curved space.

ETA: If you think the Earth is flat in a rectangular coordinate system then you really are willfully ignorant.
RB is describing an area as large as a whole football field that has less variation than the woodgrain in the maple basketball court of your local YMCA. That seems very flat to me.

Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Ok, that makes sense, I thought it had something to do with the curvature of the earth being 0.55% of something. I'm not sure what the height of mountains and the depth of ocean trenches has to do with anything though.
An ordinary model globe that's made of cardboard and paper that has a thin tape equator band that holds the two hemispheres together seems pretty smooth to the touch. It's not as smooth as the real Earth is.

ETA: xterra's description is probably better than mine.
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Last edited by HighRiser; 21st March 2017 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Damn ninjas
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Old 22nd March 2017, 03:15 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
To use an illustration I first heard [mumble] years ago, think about an orange. The bumps and dips on an orange are like the mountains and trenches on the earth.

However, the illustration said, the bumps and dips relative to the diameter of the orange are much larger than the mountains and trenches relative to the diameter of the earth. (That is larger than 0.55%)
Scaled down it's approximately the same roughness as a used cue ball. But because the Earth is not a true sphere the actual difference is slightly greater.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 05:19 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
Earth's radius is about 6,400 km, and the vertical difference between the deepest ocean trench and the tallest mountain is only about .55% of the length of the radius.
Not exactly. See below.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Scaled down it's approximately the same roughness as a used cue ball. But because the Earth is not a true sphere the actual difference is slightly greater.
I started to do my calculation based upon the difference between the elevation of Mount Everest and the deepest part of the Mariana Trench. While looking that up, I found that there are parts of the sea floor under the Arctic Ocean that are 13 km closer to the center of the Earth than the bottom of the trench.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 05:26 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
Not exactly. See below.



I started to do my calculation based upon the difference between the elevation of Mount Everest and the deepest part of the Mariana Trench. While looking that up, I found that there are parts of the sea floor under the Arctic Ocean that are 13 km closer to the center of the Earth than the bottom of the trench.
Due to the oblation of the sphere at the equator?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 05:33 AM   #46
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Okay people the opposite of wrongness is not pedanticness.

No the Earth is not a perfectly round machined sphere, it bulges in the middle due to rotation and other factors and is therefore not a perfect "sphere."

But, to counter pedantics with pedantics, the Earth is "round" is the usual turn of phrase, not the Earth is a "sphere" and it is still demonstrably very round.

But regardless there's a reason this is the exact example is the one Isaac Asimov used in his coining of the phrase "Wronger then wrong."*

When something is demonstrably, across the board, wrong on an epic scale the proper response is not to split the hair of the correct answer.

*"Wronger Then Wrong" also know as Asimov's Axiom is equating two errors as equally wrong when one is obviously much wronger as in: "When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
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Old 22nd March 2017, 05:37 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Okay people the opposite of wrongness is not pedanticness.

No the Earth is not a perfectly round machined sphere, it bulges in the middle due to rotation and other factors and is therefore not a perfect "sphere."

But, to counter pedantics with pedantics, the Earth is "round" is the usual turn of phrase, not the Earth is a "sphere" and it is still demonstrably very round.

But regardless there's a reason this is the exact example is the one Isaac Asimov used in his coining of the phrase "Wronger then wrong."*

When something is demonstrably, across the board, wrong on an epic scale the proper response is not to split the hair of the correct answer.

*"Wronger Then Wrong" also know as Asimov's Axiom is equating two errors as equally wrong when one is obviously much wronger as in: "When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
The irony is that nobody ever really thought of the earth as flat. OK, five thousand years ago if you'd asked the question you'd probably get 'flat' as the answer, but at no time in human history was the flat earth anywhere near consensus, or even a popular concept.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 06:07 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Next thing you know, he'll deny that he was ever in a movie called Shazam!

And he would be correct. The movie was called "Kazaam". He was a genie, not a superhero empowered by Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury.
(Unless that was the point of the wink.)
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Old 22nd March 2017, 06:07 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
OK, five thousand years ago if you'd asked the question you'd probably get 'flat' as the answer
What was the shape of the moon thought to be back then? Were some people saying flat?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 06:36 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
To use an illustration I first heard [mumble] years ago, think about an orange. The bumps and dips on an orange are like the mountains and trenches on the earth.

However, the illustration said, the bumps and dips relative to the diameter of the orange are much larger than the mountains and trenches relative to the diameter of the earth. (That is larger than 0.55%)
I understand that. If you consider the earth as a huge sphere, then it's very 'flat' like the surface of a billiard ball is 'flat'. (Smooth would be a better word, but anyway).

However, it was confusing me in the context of RenaissanceBiker's other posts in this thread. Something to do with how the sun, earth and planets are flat because of relativity?

I can see how one could argue that the earth is 'flat' in the sense of how smooth it is, but I fail to see how relativity explains it.

Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker
The Theory of Relativity supports a flat Earth by explaining how gravity curves space-time.
Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker
The Moon, the Sun and all the other planets of our solar system are also flat in their own spherical coordinate systems because their gravity curves space-time around them.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 06:38 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
Due to the oblation of the sphere at the equator?
Yes. And if you are looking at the flatness of the Earth in a spherical coordinate system that would count towards the measurable elevation variation.

I admit that I made my "flat in a spherical coordinate system" assertion more as a joke than being pedantic. I'm not sure where my jest lands on the Asimov wrongness scale.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 06:46 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
I understand that. If you consider the earth as a huge sphere, then it's very 'flat' like the surface of a billiard ball is 'flat'. (Smooth would be a better word, but anyway).

However, it was confusing me in the context of RenaissanceBiker's other posts in this thread. Something to do with how the sun, earth and planets are flat because of relativity?

I can see how one could argue that the earth is 'flat' in the sense of how smooth it is, but I fail to see how relativity explains it.
I used relativity to support the use of a spherical coordinate system, an appeal to authority and nothing more. Obviously I'm a better engineer than I am a comedian.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 06:50 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What was the shape of the moon thought to be back then? Were some people saying flat?
Why would they? It doesn't even look flat.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 06:55 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
Yes. And if you are looking at the flatness of the Earth in a spherical coordinate system that would count towards the measurable elevation variation.

I admit that I made my "flat in a spherical coordinate system" assertion more as a joke than being pedantic. I'm not sure where my jest lands on the Asimov wrongness scale.
I thought so and had a little chuckle when you first posted about it.

I had never really grasped how regular the surface of the globe is until yesterday when numbers were put to the issue.

Thanks!
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Old 22nd March 2017, 07:12 AM   #55
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Why does this whole thread remind me of the Looney Tunes retelling of Christopher Columbus with Bugs Bunny in the starring role.

"Tha World'a, she's a round!"

"She's a flat, like your head!"
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Old 22nd March 2017, 08:33 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
I used relativity to support the use of a spherical coordinate system, an appeal to authority and nothing more. Obviously I'm a better engineer than I am a comedian.
Ah. I should have guessed it was a joke, but it's hard to tell sometimes, with the amount of genuinely silly woo out there.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 09:27 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I can see the curve of the earth from sea level, anybody can. Look over any substantial body of water and you'll see tall objects on the far side begin 'below' the water line. Now I'm sure this guy spends a lot of time on court but surely he's visited a lake or a bay in his lifetime?
Not sure. But it does involve travel for that 50% of the population that are not on the coast, and even then... I live in Vancouver, I'm on the coast, and there's no ability to see ocean much more than a half mile out. It's overcast here all the time. So at the moment, when I look at the ocean, as far as I can see it looks perfectly flat.

I could travel, of course, but In any case, I'd have to take your word for it that despite what I see with my own eyes, if I go somewhere else, I'll see evidence of the opposite. I would have to trust you (a stranger) more than my own eyes, which is my point.

The second problem is that this actually doesn't satisfy a flat earther. Recall that I spent awhile sparring with one who was my socials studies teacher. You see, the earth is not perfectly flat. It's shaped like a Ruffles potato chip. You've seen hills, right? Well, the ocean has hills, too.



Originally Posted by baron View Post
I bet he trusts his Sat Nav to direct him to his destination. I bet he trusts that his TV signal doesn't originate from his garden. I bet he trusts the weather forecast to tell him if it's going to rain tomorrow. Even five thousand years ago people knew the Earth was not flat and then there none of these things. To believe in a flat Earth now with the staggering amount of evidence in everyday life demonstrating it to be false is an act so stupid it must classify as mental illness.
He may trust all those, and still not trust the 'scientific' explanation of how they work. He may believe that all the scientists are misguided and have the wrong explanation. Alternatively, he may believe that they know the earth is flat and be misleading us. He's a skeptic: "Believing a scientific explanation just because it's coming from scientists is the fallacy of argument from authority. Does the Earth look flat? No? Then maybe they're mistaken or lying."



Originally Posted by baron View Post
The syndrome isn't classified on the basis of how it came about, it's on the observed characteristics. It isn't a 'malfunction in their actual capacity to perceive reality' at all, quite the opposite, it's an accurate perception of reality with incorrect conclusions.
I think we're splitting hairs here.

True, it has multiple origins, but ultimately the most common causes are physiological rather than cognitive. Prosopagnosia and phantom limb, are also in this cluster. The current model is that the brain 'perceives' an external and internal model of a person, and that allows us to distinguish between seeing a person versus seeing a photo of a person, for example.

Patients with Capgras have lost their capacity to form the internal model, which is classified in the processing flow as the sensory and/or perception step. Based on that deficiency their cognition concludes that what they're looking at looks like the person in question, but yet since they 'know' it is not the person in question, therefore it must be an imposter.

The point being that the upstream malfunction (this looks like the person but does not have the 'person' attached) is not a learned or reasoned element of cognitive processing. It's raw input.

In the situation with flat earthers, we have to ask if they 'know' the earth is flat, or if they 'learned' or 'reasoned' that the earth is flat. If it's the former, then there's a possible diagnosis there; if it's the latter, it's just be a dumb idea.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 09:53 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
Obviously I'm a better engineer than I am a comedian.
In my experience even a bad engineer will fit that description.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 11:07 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
And he would be correct. The movie was called "Kazaam". He was a genie, not a superhero empowered by Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury.
(Unless that was the point of the wink.)
Shaquille managed to butcher a DC Comic Book hero in "Steel",though.

'Kazaam" came out about the same time that "Space Jam" did. "Kazaam" bombed badly, "Space Jam" was a big hit. Once again, MJ beat Shaque.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 11:17 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
And he would be correct. The movie was called "Kazaam". He was a genie, not a superhero empowered by Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury.
(Unless that was the point of the wink.)
It's a reference to a popular 'Madela Effect' claim that there was another kids genie movie in the 90's starring Sinbad called 'Shazam, Shaazam or Shazzam'.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 11:51 AM   #61
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson wades in, as he did a year ago when some rapper made the same claim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHBZkek8OSU
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:29 PM   #62
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I'm shocked one of the freakiest characters in all of sports - and whose sole "talent" was being taller than you - also has a freaky point of view on reality. Shocked I tell ya!
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Old 22nd March 2017, 01:43 PM   #63
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I'd say he said it for the shiggles alone.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 07:18 AM   #64
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Here's some red meat. Flat earther likens himself to be a Free Thinker. https://youtu.be/YxtlEiKrv_I
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Old 23rd March 2017, 10:20 AM   #65
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O Neal is a part owner of the Sacramento Kings and the head of the Geography department at a local college has offered free lessons to Shaque .......
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Old 23rd March 2017, 10:50 AM   #66
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The guy has an MBA from the University of Phoenix.

He also has an Ed.D from Barry University.


They must be so proud.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 11:09 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
In my experience even a bad engineer will fit that description.
Yeah? Well, so are you! I mean, you're a ... dammit I had something for this.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 11:15 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
Yeah? Well, so are you! I mean, you're a ... dammit I had something for this.
Well said.

And I was speaking form personal experience. As a bad engineer. In case that needed explaining. Since that was sort of the punchline. I guess.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 11:16 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/03/shaq...irving-podcast

"It’s true. The Earth is flat. The Earth is flat. Yeah, it is. Yes, it is. Listen, there are three ways to manipulate the mind — what you read, what you see and what you hear."
I'm surprised that the man's never been in a plane, then.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 12:09 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm surprised that the man's never been in a plane, then.
I'm pretty sure he rode on planes when he was playing in the NBA. Maybe he never looked out the window.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 12:17 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm pretty sure he rode on planes when he was playing in the NBA. Maybe he never looked out the window.
At 40,000 you can _definitely_ see the curvature.
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Old 24th March 2017, 06:44 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Okay people the opposite of wrongness is not pedanticness.

No the Earth is not a perfectly round machined sphere, it bulges in the middle due to rotation and other factors and is therefore not a perfect "sphere."

But, to counter pedantics with pedantics, the Earth is "round" is the usual turn of phrase, not the Earth is a "sphere" and it is still demonstrably very round.

But regardless there's a reason this is the exact example is the one Isaac Asimov used in his coining of the phrase "Wronger then wrong."*

When something is demonstrably, across the board, wrong on an epic scale the proper response is not to split the hair of the correct answer.

*"Wronger Then Wrong" also know as Asimov's Axiom is equating two errors as equally wrong when one is obviously much wronger as in: "When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Did you make the typo hoping some pedantic reader would correct you?
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Old 24th March 2017, 11:21 PM   #73
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As most of us who have watched Shaq for years realized - he was joking.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/03/shaq...t-kyrie-irving
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Old 24th March 2017, 11:53 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Did you make the typo hoping some pedantic reader would correct you?
Listen I'm not stupid. I get that by complaining on the internet about people being pedantic I'm basically inviting people into either doing that cutesy poo "LOL I'm being pedantic but like jokingly wink wink" bit or just straight up being pedantic at me, I just don't care.

I type quickly and off the cuff. I don't generally take the time to proofread or grammar check a quick internet post. If people want to break out their red pens and their copies of Strunk & White and go at my posts like an out of work English teacher on caffeine and Adderal more power to them. I will protest these acts by not caring and continuing to not care until such a time as nothing happens.

My basic overall point, that the opposite of factual wrongness is factual correctness and not nitpicking by-the-book pedanticness stands and if people want to counter that with pedantry it sort of just proves my point for me.
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Old 25th March 2017, 06:22 AM   #75
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OK, so the short answer is no?
I figured you were baiting a trap.
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Old 25th March 2017, 07:19 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why would they? It doesn't even look flat.
It [the moon] doesn't look spherical, either.
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Old 25th March 2017, 08:08 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
As most of us who have watched Shaq for years realized - he was joking.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/03/shaq...t-kyrie-irving
And others knew that this thread did not go into the active and existing flat earth thread because the instance was the point, not the class. In fact, no class at all was the point.
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Old 25th March 2017, 04:10 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What was the shape of the moon thought to be back then? Were some people saying flat?
Nope - the moon is a sphere according to flat earthers, as are the planets.

The earth is flat, because it is not a planet.

Flat earthers are even more dishonest in their arguments that creationists or crypto bleevers.
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Old 1st April 2017, 01:35 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why would they? It doesn't even look flat.
Flat can easily be a circle.
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