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Tags Arlene Gaal , bigfoot , cryptozoology , flatwoods monster , Ken Chaplin , lake worth monster , loch ness monster , panthers , Trunko

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Old 13th April 2017, 11:01 PM   #3121
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Peruvian Jungle Puppies!

https://apple.news/Ab4Go383VRIChFuFlOxIa-g

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ooooh, I'll be there in a couple of weeks. I better put some old batteries in my camera so that it fails at the critical moment and then I'll be entered into the Cryptozoology Hall of Fame as their ace photographer!

All kidding aside, a timely post - thank you.
I'll be keeping an eye out for the Bush Dog as well.
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Old 28th May 2017, 06:03 PM   #3122
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Mr. Bigfoot

Is this a coincidence, or is there a link?

A 1956 episode of the syndicated TV show, Death Valley Days, purported to relate true stories of the old west, was entitled "Mr. Bigfoot." The story tells of giant human footprints found in a California desert in the early 1900s.

This episode came out a couple of years before the Ray Wallace hoax tracks in Northern California involving Jerry Crew and the coining of the word Bigfoot by the Humboldt Times editor Andrew Genzoli.

Is this just a weird coincidence? Or did Days influence Wallace with an idea to hoax giant human tracks, or give Genzoli the idea for a name?

DVD episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubSDxgp4bo0

The Crew event and the launching of Bigfoot: http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/true1959.htm
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Old 29th May 2017, 11:03 AM   #3123
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Is this a coincidence, or is there a link?

A 1956 episode of the syndicated TV show, Death Valley Days, purported to relate true stories of the old west, was entitled "Mr. Bigfoot." The story tells of giant human footprints found in a California desert in the early 1900s.

This episode came out a couple of years before the Ray Wallace hoax tracks in Northern California involving Jerry Crew and the coining of the word Bigfoot by the Humboldt Times editor Andrew Genzoli.

Is this just a weird coincidence? Or did Days influence Wallace with an idea to hoax giant human tracks, or give Genzoli the idea for a name?

DVD episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubSDxgp4bo0

The Crew event and the launching of Bigfoot: http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/true1959.htm
Probably hard to tell at this point, but it seems likely that Genzoli may have heard the phrase before, although it's the kind of obvious take on words that are frequent among people without people really even having been influenced by each other, kind of like "big-head."

I'm guessing that those early "big-foot" stories are what encouraged believers to think that Bigfoot had a history before the 1950s, and in a way, the legend did, but for the wrong reasons.
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Old 29th May 2017, 03:31 PM   #3124
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Probably hard to tell at this point, but it seems likely that Genzoli may have heard the phrase before, although it's the kind of obvious take on words that are frequent among people without people really even having been influenced by each other, kind of like "big-head."

I'm guessing that those early "big-foot" stories are what encouraged believers to think that Bigfoot had a history before the 1950s, and in a way, the legend did, but for the wrong reasons.
Here is how I see “the historical Bigfoot,’ there wasn’t one. Green, Dahinden, and Sanderson tried to invoke a history for Bigfoot in typical Fortean fashion, by citing old newspaper reports and stories. These stories can be cataloged: “true” historical accounts such as the alleged “Siege of Mt. St. Helens” that really don’t match up with contemporary reports (3 toed, long pointy eared apes); stories of literal gorillas seen in American forests, most likely imagination or falsifications inspired by press stories of gorillas in Africa; overtly “fake news” of hairy men or ape-men, something local newspapers would publish to boost sales or entertain their readers; Indian accounts that were tall tales and/or representative of an animistic Native Culture; and the European fascination with the hairy man myth and stories of giants finding a home in the New World in campfire tales and later in spurious news reports. Such a collection of dubiously authenticated stories was employed by Green and allies to form a basis for historicity, to give the Sasquatch/Bigfoot story (which originated in the 1950s) a covering back story.

For me, the Bigfoot story as we know it has its origin in the pop culture of the 1950s. The Shipton photograph renewed world wide interest in the Yeti, fortunately coined as the mysterious Abominable Snowman. The Sasquatch/Bigfoot is nothing but the Yeti transplanted to the North American continent via romantic imagination (bipedal, cone head and all); that’s why early on it was often referred to as “America’s Abominable Snowman.” The contemporary myth of the Sasquatch/Bigfoot has two foster fathers: Ray Wallace and John Green. Wallace created Bigfoot as we know it with his hoaxed track-ways, giving it the appearance of something solid behind the stories, something holding real evidence, and moved it beyond the ephemeral. Green, converted to Bigfootville because of two Yeti-like recent reports by white men, and one Indian witness report mirroring First Nation lore, rushed to link the BC Yeti to the California tracks (such tracks had not yet appeared in Canada) and all it took then was a claimed “sighting” of a bipedal large ape (again, a Yeti trope) by two Wallace employees to set in motion the creation of a new American myth.

This is why I find the Death Valley Days episode interesting. Anything that has potential to help explain more fully what influenced the early days of the Bigfoot story ought be considered.

P.S. Patterson is all important too. But without Green and Wallace, there would be no Patterson because there would have been no Bigfoot.
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Old 29th May 2017, 05:47 PM   #3125
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The woollybooger, or bigfoot as it's known today, was used by my grandfather to keep people from finding his moonshine still during prohibition. The story goes back further than the 1950's.
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Old 29th May 2017, 09:24 PM   #3126
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The woollybooger, or bigfoot as it's known today . . .
Never heard of 'em.

These, I have.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_Bugger
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Old 30th May 2017, 04:52 AM   #3127
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post

P.S. Patterson is all important too. But without Green and Wallace, there would be no Patterson because there would have been no Bigfoot.
Do not underestimate the importance of Peter Byrne and Tom Slick.

Quote:
Acting under Slick's directions, Peter flew to the Pacific Northwest and set up a base in in what at that time appeared to be the heart of activity of the phenomenon, Trinity County, in Northern California. There, at a tiny settlement named Salyer, near the town of Willow Creek, he assembled equipment that included four-wheel-drive vehicles, all terrain, heavy-duty motorcycles, cameras and binoculars and all-weather camping gear. He set up an office with staff and recruited an outdoor team of men and women with backgrounds of experience in the heavily forested terrain of the mountains. Once ready, he set about what he named The Great Search, for something which, if eyewitnesses were accurate in their descriptions, was a giant, unclassified, hair-covered, bipedal, man-like primate that might well have as its ancestor an equally enormous primate that at one time lived in Asia - in fact in the region from which America's Native Americans originated - a huge beast known to scientists as Gigantopithecus.
This is a great resource http://www.petercbyrne.com/greatsearches.html

Look closely at the picture in the bottom right of the page. I think there was a reason Roger Patterson chose Bluff Creek to film Patty in 1967.

Curious if Bigfoot Bookman has located the location of that picture.
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Old 30th May 2017, 04:55 AM   #3128
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The woollybooger, or bigfoot as it's known today, was used by my grandfather to keep people from finding his moonshine still during prohibition. The story goes back further than the 1950's.
Sounds like a Scooby Doo plot.
Did he ever tell anyone "Hey, that's just a story." or was he in character his whole life?
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Old 30th May 2017, 06:41 AM   #3129
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https://techdigg.com/2017/03/17/if-y...p-on-the-tech/

If You’re a Cryptozoologist, You May Want to Lighten Up on the Tech
With a nod to Meldrum's Falcon Project.
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Old 30th May 2017, 06:47 AM   #3130
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Here is how I see “the historical Bigfoot,’ there wasn’t one. Green, Dahinden, and Sanderson tried to invoke a history for Bigfoot in typical Fortean fashion, by citing old newspaper reports and stories. These stories can be cataloged: “true” historical accounts such as the alleged “Siege of Mt. St. Helens” that really don’t match up with contemporary reports (3 toed, long pointy eared apes); stories of literal gorillas seen in American forests, most likely imagination or falsifications inspired by press stories of gorillas in Africa; overtly “fake news” of hairy men or ape-men, something local newspapers would publish to boost sales or entertain their readers; Indian accounts that were tall tales and/or representative of an animistic Native Culture; and the European fascination with the hairy man myth and stories of giants finding a home in the New World in campfire tales and later in spurious news reports. Such a collection of dubiously authenticated stories was employed by Green and allies to form a basis for historicity, to give the Sasquatch/Bigfoot story (which originated in the 1950s) a covering back story.

For me, the Bigfoot story as we know it has its origin in the pop culture of the 1950s. The Shipton photograph renewed world wide interest in the Yeti, fortunately coined as the mysterious Abominable Snowman. The Sasquatch/Bigfoot is nothing but the Yeti transplanted to the North American continent via romantic imagination (bipedal, cone head and all); that’s why early on it was often referred to as “America’s Abominable Snowman.” The contemporary myth of the Sasquatch/Bigfoot has two foster fathers: Ray Wallace and John Green. Wallace created Bigfoot as we know it with his hoaxed track-ways, giving it the appearance of something solid behind the stories, something holding real evidence, and moved it beyond the ephemeral. Green, converted to Bigfootville because of two Yeti-like recent reports by white men, and one Indian witness report mirroring First Nation lore, rushed to link the BC Yeti to the California tracks (such tracks had not yet appeared in Canada) and all it took then was a claimed “sighting” of a bipedal large ape (again, a Yeti trope) by two Wallace employees to set in motion the creation of a new American myth.

This is why I find the Death Valley Days episode interesting. Anything that has potential to help explain more fully what influenced the early days of the Bigfoot story ought be considered.

P.S. Patterson is all important too. But without Green and Wallace, there would be no Patterson because there would have been no Bigfoot.
That's pretty much how I see it, too. There have been stories of "Wildmen" for a long time, but they're so far removed from the modern notion of Bigfoot that any attempt to relate them on the part of believers is an obvious ploy to have the legend seem deeper than it actually is.

Giants have existed in myth for a ridiculously long time, add in the European myths for Werewolves and general man-beasts of all varying types, along with newspaper clippings of "strange apes on the loose," and you basically have a fictitious history for the Sasquatch.

The Woodwose is lumped in with being a Bigfoot, just as the Big Grey Man of the Ben Macdui is, it goes on and on. Anything even remotely large, odd, or hairy, suddenly becomes a Sasquatch.

If you believe in Bigfoot, then you have to believe Bigfoot has a lineage, and you can find that lineage in the pages of folklore, just as you can find all kinds of nonsense stories to attach to UFOs and aliens, if UFOs is more your cup of tea.
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Old 30th May 2017, 06:51 AM   #3131
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The woollybooger, or bigfoot as it's known today, was used by my grandfather to keep people from finding his moonshine still during prohibition. The story goes back further than the 1950's.
I don't doubt that a story about a vague man-beast goes back an awful long way, but the problem is that it has no actual bearing on the modern Bigfoot tale.

Man-Beasts go back to ancient times, in all varying forms. Look at Egypt, Greece, Europe in general.

Bigfoot has morphed into being from all of these confused and contradictory stories of varying man-beasts, ghosts, and random giants.
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Old 30th May 2017, 07:11 AM   #3132
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Monsters just beyond the woodline, firelight, outside the door have been around forever.
I wish I had saved the article, but I read about a term for wildmen attributed to NA. It was reported to be used as a derogatory term for "uncivilized" NA living in the "woods". Most certainly misconstrued by footers as evidence of BIGFOOT!
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Old 30th May 2017, 07:17 AM   #3133
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Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
Monsters just beyond the woodline, firelight, outside the door have been around forever.
I wish I had saved the article, but I read about a term for wildmen attributed to NA. It was reported to be used as a derogatory term for "uncivilized" NA living in the "woods". Most certainly misconstrued by footers as evidence of BIGFOOT!
A lot of stories about "wildmen" were exactly that, just stories about unruly, unkept men. It was also a way to describe an uncouth savage by the upper-classes. That's the real problem; it has so many meanings that are largely forgotten in terms of how it is used today. Tolkein's wildmen were exactly that, savages from the hills.

When you really are desperate to find some kind of history for a monster which you're pushing as factual, then you'll cling onto anything remotely resembling that monster throughout the pages of history's legends. Sometimes those monsters have literally nothing in common with the modern version, but that doesn't matter when you're a very needy believer. The best example of this is the Grey Man of Ben Macdui; many Bigfoot believers use that as evidence for Bigfoot in the UK. Let's look at it for a second: a big black vaporous ghost that appears through the clouds near the summit of the mountain...seems like Bigfoot!
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Old 30th May 2017, 11:28 AM   #3134
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Never heard of 'em.

These, I have.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_Bugger

That's what they called a bigfoot in the deep south, a woolly booger.

http://www.texasescapes.com/DanaGool...as-Bigfoot.htm
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Old 30th May 2017, 11:30 AM   #3135
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Sounds like a Scooby Doo plot.
Did he ever tell anyone "Hey, that's just a story." or was he in character his whole life?
Evidently in character his whole life. He was a scary looking man, missing one eye, fingers on both hands, and had loose folds of skin hanging from his arms that attached to his side like bat wings where his arms were burned in a fire.
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Old 30th May 2017, 11:35 AM   #3136
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I don't doubt that a story about a vague man-beast goes back an awful long way, but the problem is that it has no actual bearing on the modern Bigfoot tale.

Man-Beasts go back to ancient times, in all varying forms. Look at Egypt, Greece, Europe in general.

Bigfoot has morphed into being from all of these confused and contradictory stories of varying man-beasts, ghosts, and random giants.
It does when it's described as the critter that exists in the PNW known as bigfoot.
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Old 30th May 2017, 11:37 AM   #3137
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
A lot of stories about "wildmen" were exactly that, just stories about unruly, unkept men. It was also a way to describe an uncouth savage by the upper-classes. That's the real problem; it has so many meanings that are largely forgotten in terms of how it is used today. Tolkein's wildmen were exactly that, savages from the hills.

When you really are desperate to find some kind of history for a monster which you're pushing as factual, then you'll cling onto anything remotely resembling that monster throughout the pages of history's legends. Sometimes those monsters have literally nothing in common with the modern version, but that doesn't matter when you're a very needy believer. The best example of this is the Grey Man of Ben Macdui; many Bigfoot believers use that as evidence for Bigfoot in the UK. Let's look at it for a second: a big black vaporous ghost that appears through the clouds near the summit of the mountain...seems like Bigfoot!
Probably just a remnant from the stories of the Picts that were supposed to be blue.
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Old 30th May 2017, 11:41 AM   #3138
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
It does when it's described as the critter that exists in the PNW known as bigfoot.
That's my point, though, the reasons for people connecting the two is down to the latter not having a history, due to its non-existence, and thus a connection is made with the former.
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Old 30th May 2017, 11:46 AM   #3139
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Probably just a remnant from the stories of the Picts that were supposed to be blue.
The Grey Man? It's mainly thought to be attributed to a known optical illusion known as the "Brocken Spectre," but has its roots firmly set in the supernatural, as far as myth is concerned. The Bigfoot connection has been made fairly recently, for the sake of those who support the idea that Bigfoot exists and exists in the UK. When you're writing books about the UK Bigfoot, you ideally need more than one chapter, so we get many nonsense stories about completely non-bigfoot-related yarns, lol.
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Old 30th May 2017, 11:48 AM   #3140
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I don't think whether it's real or not is the issue. I'm just saying the bigfoot legend wasn't born in 1950 in the PNW. THe legend existed way before then and there are about a hundred different names for the same legendary creature.
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Old 30th May 2017, 11:58 AM   #3141
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't think whether it's real or not is the issue. I'm just saying the bigfoot legend wasn't born in 1950 in the PNW. THe legend existed way before then and there are about a hundred different names for the same legendary creature.
I think it not being real has a lot to do with it, because as I was saying, when you have a modern fabrication of a muddled legend, and are pushing it as fact, then you have to be able to point to the history books and say "look, here's Bigfoot in the 19th century..."

I don't doubt that a legend existed, but that legend has nothing remotely to do with the current myth of Bigfoot. I think the Bigfoot legend as we know it today is firmly rooted in the 1950s and beyond, as opposed to anything pre-1950.

I'd say most of the names for Bigfoot are likely, when investigated, describing something that contradicts today's idea of what a Bigfoot is. The problem is that so many legends and names are thrown about without anyone having actually checked them to see if they gel with today's Bigfoot. The Woodwose is one of those common mistakes, and basically describes a less romantic version of the Green Man of folklore, but when looked at through the lenses of a believer, this is an ancient depiction of a Bigfoot.

If you believe in Bigfoot, then European folklore is rife with accounts of potentially "historic Bigfoot accounts" that span many centuries well before the 19th or 20th. There's a whole host of tales that believers can hang their hats on, but in reality, they're nothing like Bigfoot in any way whatsoever.

The details don't seem to matter when making a case for a supposed history of a fictitious creature. The actual Asian accounts of "Yeti's" bare no resemblance to any Bigfoot, and were actually thought of as supernatural entities, which is why on ancient maps of Asia, you'll see a demon, as opposed to a hairy ape-man. The Westerner likely created the Yeti as we now know it.
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Old 30th May 2017, 12:07 PM   #3142
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
That's what they called a bigfoot in the deep south, a woolly booger.

http://www.texasescapes.com/DanaGool...as-Bigfoot.htm
Every culture has a boogeyman.
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Old 30th May 2017, 12:15 PM   #3143
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Every culture has a boogeyman.
More to the point, every culture has some kind of giant within its legends. Giants are beyond even Biblical tales.

Giants are a huge part of the human imagination and have been for thousands and thousands of years. It goes back to mans inability to fathom how things like mountains came to be; must've been a mighty big fella who did that!

It's not too dissimilar from the "Ancient Alien" gang, they poke throughout history and say "ah ha! See? Man couldn't possibly do that, must've been aliens!"
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:30 AM   #3144
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I think when you're dealing with an archetype, like a hairy man, that any differences in the story are minor. Bigfoot is the same old legend re-branded for modern times.
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Old 31st May 2017, 11:21 AM   #3145
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Bigfoot is the same old legend re-branded for modern times.
Meh, it's more like a cottage industry. .
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Old 31st May 2017, 06:55 PM   #3146
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think when you're dealing with an archetype, like a hairy man, that any differences in the story are minor. Bigfoot is the same old legend re-branded for modern times.
Which legend would this be?

We've already had this discussion here - Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

It is quite obvious from the discussions in that thread, that there are not any existing legends that Bigfoot was derived from.

The whole BF thing was invented from whole cloth.
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Old 31st May 2017, 08:12 PM   #3147
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Which legend would this be? The whole BF thing was invented from whole cloth.
It is a long con devised to beguile the gullible (and worse) for fun and profit. The only certainty in bigfootery is an endless supply of the credulous.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:48 PM   #3148
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think when you're dealing with an archetype, like a hairy man, that any differences in the story are minor. Bigfoot is the same old legend re-branded for modern times.
I have to disagree, as the variation is immense. It's this view of "minor differences" that allow people to make silly claims about Bigfoot being real.

When you genuinely look at "hairy man" stories, they're nothing akin to most modern Bigfoot stories.

This is why we have loonies trying to use Werewolf tales as proof for Bigfoot, and other such fraudulent nonsense.

Take for instance the Yeti, as I mentioned earlier, it had nothing to do with Bigfoot whatsoever, but now it's synonymous with it due to a lack of understanding and a desperate need to have Bigfoot be real.

If we overlook "minor differences," we overlook major flaws.
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Old 1st June 2017, 07:18 AM   #3149
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Which legend would this be?
The one I mentioned that was co-opted by my grandfather to prevent people from walking up on his still was the woolly booger. That was during the 1920's well before the word bigfoot was coined.

Quote:
We've already had this discussion here - Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.
Native Americans aren't the only ones that have a myth or legend about hairy men. I wasn't specifically speaking to them unless you want to keep the discussion about North America.

Quote:
It is quite obvious from the discussions in that thread, that there are not any existing legends that Bigfoot was derived from.

The whole BF thing was invented from whole cloth.
I disagree, the differences described are minimal at best. I think it's a universal archetype since hairy man legends are worldwide and stretch back since people started story telling.
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Old 1st June 2017, 02:41 PM   #3150
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't think whether it's real or not is the issue. I'm just saying the bigfoot legend wasn't born in 1950 in the PNW. THe legend existed way before then and there are about a hundred different names for the same legendary creature.
I don't recall any ancient native drawings of the most famous feature...

You'd think that coming across 20X7 inch human prints (or larger) fairly often would make such prints part of the fabric of life of ancient people. Even if you never ran across what created the prints...

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that giant foot prints that are basically just like mine means a giant man like me. Presumably these ancient people became adept at tracking and were used to looking for tracks in the soil. They'd have come across sasquatch tracks often and those tracks would have been a big deal to them.

Just like grizzly tracks and grizzly claws were a big deal.

Presumably sasquatch/bigfoot was even bigger back then and much more numerous.

It would have been the ultimate prize to hunt and kill a sasquatch and have souvenirs of your deed.

Yet we really don't see anything but vague legends that have to be ground down and fitted into the bigfoot meme.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 1st June 2017, 03:28 PM   #3151
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I don't recall any ancient native drawings of the most famous feature...

You'd think that coming across 20X7 inch human prints (or larger) fairly often would make such prints part of the fabric of life of ancient people. Even if you never ran across what created the prints...
I imagine people who were primarily farmers and hunters would know what bear prints look like more so than a society after the industrial revolution.

Quote:
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that giant foot prints that are basically just like mine means a giant man like me. Presumably these ancient people became adept at tracking and were used to looking for tracks in the soil. They'd have come across sasquatch tracks often and those tracks would have been a big deal to them.

Just like grizzly tracks and grizzly claws were a big deal.
Exactly, they knew what they were looking at.

Quote:
Presumably sasquatch/bigfoot was even bigger back then and much more numerous.

It would have been the ultimate prize to hunt and kill a sasquatch and have souvenirs of your deed.

Yet we really don't see anything but vague legends that have to be ground down and fitted into the bigfoot meme.
That's what makes a legend a legend.
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Old 1st June 2017, 04:59 PM   #3152
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The one I mentioned that was co-opted by my grandfather to prevent people from walking up on his still was the woolly booger. That was during the 1920's well before the word bigfoot was coined.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
When you first told this story the thread, "Bigfoot - Anybody Seen One?", you claimed that your father actually came face to face with a bigfoot,
"I can't rule out misidentification, but he was face to face with this thing, I don't think it was a hallucination.".
In that thread you were emphatic about the veracity of your father and grandfather's first-hand experiences with BF.

Now you are saying that your grandfather "co-opted" a story to scare people off his property?
That is a pretty massive back down from your insistence that he and his son actually came face to face with one, to now just being a story your grandfather invented.

Quote:
Native Americans aren't the only ones that have a myth or legend about hairy men. I wasn't specifically speaking to them unless you want to keep the discussion about North America.
The subject is BF, which is an North American invention.
You can try to obfuscate the conversation by introducing irrelevant non-N.Am legends if you like - but they'll be ignored as being off topic.
Quote:
I disagree, the differences described are minimal at best. I think it's a universal archetype since hairy man legends are worldwide and stretch back since people started story telling.
Obfuscation.
Tales of hairy mountain men or fairy stories about bogeymen,
which is what a Wooly Booger actually described as, has no connection to BF, other tenuous (and obvious) attempts by BF exponents to misrepresent such stories as "proof" of historical BF accounts and legends.

The thread on Native American legends is a very good example of such misrepresentations by proponents.
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Old 1st June 2017, 11:01 PM   #3153
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Native Americans aren't the only ones that have a myth or legend about hairy men. I wasn't specifically speaking to them unless you want to keep the discussion about North America.



I disagree, the differences described are minimal at best. I think it's a universal archetype since hairy man legends are worldwide and stretch back since people started story telling.
The differences are not minimal, as I've gone to great length to explain in my earlier posts. The differences are absolutely what separates a "Bigfoot" from a "wild man." A wild man, as previously mentioned, spans everything from a description of a lower-class individual by the upper-class, something the Irish were depicted as being by the English, for instance, and a wild man was also a literal description of an "untamed" person, living beyond accepted society. Most European stories concerning wild men are generally embellished accounts of "uncouth savages." Embellishment is something people often overlook in old tales.

Take, for instance, the depictions of Jack the Ripper in the London press of the 19th century; he appeared as a phantom, a ghost, and a devil. These are clearly not things that people were serious about. Now, look at these supposed Australian, American, European, Asian "wild man" stories and ask yourself are they not more in line with shoddy newspaper sensation stories depicting people who are cast aside from accepted normality.

I can think of many examples where this is the case. Most of them appear in "Cryptozoology" books as supposed evidence of Bigfoot, especially the accounts concerning military personnel. Some soldiers find a wild man, hairy and dirty, he can't speak a word of their language, and he's subsequently imprisoned where he either dies in captivity after being "inspected" by the doctor, or escapes. These stories are all nonsense and many of them share literally the same details as I just described.

Wild man tales are nothing even remotely close to being similar to any Bigfoot tale. What people do is tweak those old tales to fit the modern idea of a Bigfoot.

Then you have basic tales of giants, usually half-clothed and again nothing at all like "ape-men," then you have things like Woodwoses, mythical forest beings that are absolutely nothing like Bigfoot.

In Europe, there was stories of men who were part animal, in France and Germany there were Werewolf stories, muddled with the reality of Berzerkers, who would wear the pelts of bears and wolves, spreading stories of "animal-men" murdering villagers. It goes on and on.

Like I said, when you believe in Bigfoot, you need to be able to point to its history in the world, and all of these totally unrelated pieces of fact, fiction, myth and legend serve as a fake history, tweaked to suit the needs of the believer.

Bigfoot as we know it, does not exist, therefore it has no actual history. It lends its history from the various histories of other legends.

Here's a common statement from believers: "But in Asia they've talked about Ape-men for centuries..." No, they have not. The Yeti was never an ape-man until we made it one. The Yeti was a demon, a spirit, and you need only look at the ancient maps of Asia to see it. Likely a combination between their own superstitions about spirits, and the reality of dangerous animals such as bears.

People even throw Native American tales in with Bigfoot lore, but when you actually look at those native tales, they describe nothing even remotely similar to a Bigfoot.

Do hairy man tales exist pre-1950? Yes.
Are they in any way connected to Bigfoot tales post-1950? Not under scrutiny.
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Old 1st June 2017, 11:03 PM   #3154
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I imagine people who were primarily farmers and hunters would know what bear prints look like more so than a society after the industrial revolution.
Jodie, it's the year 2017, and apparently, most people still don't know what a bloody bear print looks like.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 05:22 AM   #3155
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Bigfoot is not a hairy man.

Bigfoot is a Giant, Hairy, Ape-beast.

*It is elusive, but... IN YO FACE!!,
*It is rare, but... has the largest range of any mammal in North America,
*It can see planes, but... not blimps,
*It is bipedal for walking long distances, but... has a mid-tarsal break and no Achilles tendon so it can climb.
*It hucks rocks at people, but... never hits them (EDIT: This is an trait "BAD AIM" that is selected-for. If they actually hit any person, they would be instantly hunted to extinction, because they miss, there is no imminent threat from them.)
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Old 2nd June 2017, 08:44 AM   #3156
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Bigfoot is not a hairy man.

Bigfoot is a Giant, Hairy, Ape-beast.

*It is elusive, but... IN YO FACE!!,
*It is rare, but... has the largest range of any mammal in North America,
*It can see planes, but... not blimps,
*It is bipedal for walking long distances, but... has a mid-tarsal break and no Achilles tendon so it can climb.
*It hucks rocks at people, but... never hits them (EDIT: This is an trait "BAD AIM" that is selected-for. If they actually hit any person, they would be instantly hunted to extinction, because they miss, there is no imminent threat from them.)
All that and so much more. Bigfoot is a combination of a thousand different unrelated tales, lol.

"Minimal differences" are what allow people to ignore things that should give them pause for thought, instead enabling them to suspend disbelief and practice true ignorance.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 08:49 AM   #3157
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
When you first told this story the thread, "Bigfoot - Anybody Seen One?", you claimed that your father actually came face to face with a bigfoot,
"I can't rule out misidentification, but he was face to face with this thing, I don't think it was a hallucination.".
In that thread you were emphatic about the veracity of your father and grandfather's first-hand experiences with BF.

Now you are saying that your grandfather "co-opted" a story to scare people off his property?
That is a pretty massive back down from your insistence that he and his son actually came face to face with one, to now just being a story your grandfather invented.
No, actually it isn't. Homelessness was rampant during the depression. My father was brought up on the story of the woolly booger that was in the area. Imagine a child running up on an unkempt man in a grape vineyard in a rural area. What do you think his mind is going to tell him that he's seeing? Only later when I reconnected with my Aunt Ada Mae and asked about the incident did she tell me that it was story concocted to keep people away from the still. I did post about that later on in that same thread.

Quote:
The subject is BF, which is an North American invention.
You can try to obfuscate the conversation by introducing irrelevant non-N.Am legends if you like - but they'll be ignored as being off topic.Obfuscation.
Tales of hairy mountain men or fairy stories about bogeymen,
which is what a Wooly Booger actually described as, has no connection to BF, other tenuous (and obvious) attempts by BF exponents to misrepresent such stories as "proof" of historical BF accounts and legends.
What you call obfuscation is pointing out what I call cherry picking the data on your part.

Quote:
The thread on Native American legends is a very good example of such misrepresentations by proponents.
I don't agree.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 08:53 AM   #3158
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
All that and so much more. Bigfoot is a combination of a thousand different unrelated tales, lol.

"Minimal differences" are what allow people to ignore things that should give them pause for thought, instead enabling them to suspend disbelief and practice true ignorance.
I don't disagree with that, but casting bigfoot as a recent legend that originated in the 1950's isn't accurate.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 09:00 AM   #3159
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't disagree with that, but casting bigfoot as a recent legend that originated in the 1950's isn't accurate.
But it isn't accurate to say that the modern notion of Bigfoot existed before the 1950s, though, that's my point.

Are there any notable accounts from before 1950 that have not been re-tweaked by believers since then, that are in line with the modern day Bigfoot in detail and description?

Giants are an ancient myth, one of the oldest. Hairy men are an almost ancient symbol of feral man. Neither are connected to Bigfoot as we know it. That's my point; if you want/need/believe Bigfoot to be real, then you need a history for it, and you can find that history in the unrelated tales of other legends. This is how myths are born, urban legends, folklore, etc.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 09:04 AM   #3160
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't disagree with that, but casting bigfoot as a recent legend that originated in the 1950's isn't accurate.
Yes it is.

Bigfoot was co-opted from the Yeti stories.

They saw the expeditions to Nepal, the Shipton print etc... and transplanted them here, where there was ripe market for such a creature.
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