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Tags Arlene Gaal , bigfoot , cryptozoology , flatwoods monster , Ken Chaplin , lake worth monster , loch ness monster , panthers , Trunko

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Old 29th January 2013, 08:06 PM   #241
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I dunno, Coppola didn't include that in the screenplay
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Old 29th January 2013, 08:22 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
I dunno, Coppola didn't include that in the screenplay
Godfather, II.
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Old 29th January 2013, 08:26 PM   #243
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dadburnit I totally missed it!

well played jerry , well played
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Old 1st February 2013, 02:32 PM   #244
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Chaplin = Macgruber



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Old 10th February 2013, 10:04 AM   #245
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David Thompson's "Bigfoot" Track Find

This isn't a sighting. It is a historical account (a track find) that was culled and used by Bigfoot enthusiasts to give Bigfoot a historical grounding.

Here is the story: http://www.bigfootencounters.com/leg...idthompson.htm

I was never impressed with this information as evidence for Bigfoot, primarily because Thompson himself calls the find a large grizzly track.

Something did cause me to wonder, though. Thompson mentions that other members of his party thought the tracks may belong to a "young mammouth."What exactly did that mean? Surely, not the woolly mammoth?

Over at BFF the Thompson story has recently appeared again. This time I looked a little deeper and found a definitive solution to the "mammouth" question.

http://lewis-clark.org/content/conte...ArticleID=2860

This at least shows what may have troubled Thompson about the track. He was looking for evidence of surviving mammoths. Also, given his work with First Nation peoples, it is telling that he apparently hears nothing about a sasquatch-like animal from them.

(Over at BFF I was told the link doesn't work, although it works for me. If it doesn't work, try Googling --Maps and Mammoths -- it is part of the "Discovering Lewis and Clark" page.)
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Old 10th February 2013, 10:31 AM   #246
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That's pretty cool, I had a talk with Skywalker once. Evidently hunters in remote parts of Northern Canada still claim there are mammoths roaming around up there. He was probably just yarning, but that is a cryptid I would love to see.
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Old 16th February 2013, 08:15 PM   #247
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The Thetis Lake Monster

Thetis Lake Regional Park is located on the British Columbia island of Victoria, within the municipalities of the city of Victoria.

It is a small recreational lake and a very unlikely place for a creature such as this to live undetected: http://www.monsterbelievers.com/thet...e-monster.html

However, in the summer of 1972 there were two sightings of something unusual at the lake. In August, two teenagers, Robin Flewellyn, age 17, and Gordon Pike, 16, told police officers they saw a strange creature on the lake beach on successive nights. Two newspapers gave two conflicting accounts of what they saw. One paper claimed the animal "was roughly triangular in shape, about five feet high and five feet across the base." Another paper stated "the creature was described as 5 feet long, three inches high." One of the teens sustained a small scratch while leaving the area (a serious cut after being attacked by the creature, according to some rumors.)

When the story broke, a local man came up with a possible solution. He told authorities that he had lost his pet lizard a year earlier, and though he thought it probably didn't survive the winter, maybe it did.

His lost pet was a tegu lizard, which can be over three feet long.

A tegu lizard (with apologies to Beethoven): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g5gQUKTIFw

The Thetis Lake Monster really took off a day after the newspaper reported "THETIS MONSTER SEEN BY BOYS." The day after that headline, two other boys claimed to have seen the monster. Mike Gold, 14, and Russell Van Nice, 12, said they saw a humanoid creature, something sounding similar to The Creature From The Black Lagoon movie. They said it came out of the lake, looked around, and re-entered the lake.

A few years back, Daniel Loxton investigated the Thetis Lake Monster for the Junior Skeptic supplement to SKEPTIC magazine: http://www.skeptic.com/junior_skeptic/issue35/

Loxton took to task the cryptozoologists who expanded this tale and gave it more gravity than it ever deserved.

Loxton noticed that the creature's appearance as described by Gold and Van Nice seemed to be cribbing Universal's Creature. But they added a strange appendage, a "point sticking out of its head."

Loxton looked at TV listings to see if Creature had been shown in Victoria around the time of the "sightings." He found that little over a week earlier a Victoria TV station did indeed show a monster movie, one similar to Creature, called Monster From The Surf (also released as The Beach Girls and the Monster.) This movie did have a monster with a pointed head.

The Beach Girls and the Monster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnlL4yKrD2s

Loxton investigated further and did what none of the cryptozoologists did, he managed to interview one of the original eyewitnesses. He managed to secure the phone number for Russell Van Nice.

He interviewed Van Nice 37 years after the encounter. According to Loxton: he told me the one thing I couldn't learn from newspapers or books---the one missing fact that could definitively solve the mystery of the Thetis lake Monster.

After all these years, Russell Van Nice cheerfully told me it was a hoax.

Van Nice stated that "it was a big lie." He said he and his friend were trying to get attention, and his friend, who has since passed away, was always making stuff up.

Cased closed, Loxton concludes.

Yet the Monster won't die a mundane death. Here is a breathless, imaginative retelling of the Thetis Lake story, with the added benefit of ignoring Loxton's work and presenting a sasquatch advocacy-like linking of the Monster to Indian lore: http://www.americanmonsters.com/site...onster-canada/

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Old 18th February 2013, 05:12 PM   #248
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Moosefoot

In a post above I lay out a hypothetical about how a Bigfoot sighting could originate from a moose sighting.

Check out the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rPsU...layer_embedded

The fellow commenting on the video mistakes the back end of a moose for a sasquatch. He remarks about the "upright" stance of the animal, and even infers that the Bigfoot dropped something, implying a grasping hand, when all it is is a moose stepping on some debris.
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Old 20th February 2013, 04:08 PM   #249
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Impossible! You can't make discoveries by accident!

"BOSTON—Chalk yet another fossil find up to roadcut science. Thanks to a highway-widening project in California’s Laguna Canyon, scientists have identified several new species of early toothed baleen whales. Paleontologist Meredith Rivin of the John D. Cooper Archaeological and Paleontological Center in Fullerton, California, presented the finds here today at the annual meeting of AAAS (which publishes ScienceNOW)."
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Old 21st February 2013, 02:00 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Impossible! You can't make discoveries by accident!

"BOSTON—Chalk yet another fossil find up to roadcut science. Thanks to a highway-widening project in California’s Laguna Canyon, scientists have identified several new species of early toothed baleen whales. Paleontologist Meredith Rivin of the John D. Cooper Archaeological and Paleontological Center in Fullerton, California, presented the finds here today at the annual meeting of AAAS (which publishes ScienceNOW)."
George T. Jefferson's profound work "A Catalogue of Late Quaternary Vertebrates from California" includes over a hundred pages of exactly this (it may be higher--I've only thus far been able to track down Volume 2). I want to say that I've worked with the John D Cooper firm before; at the very least their name has come up as a subcontractor for some work my firm was doing (happens all the time; you hire competators as subs). Interesting to start seeing institutions I work with in the news.

Given the work that goes into preconstruction surveys, and how rabid we ALL are to find SOMETHING during construction, I'd hardly call this an accident. Spectacular, yes! But while no one knew exactly what would be found, I'd bet my best rockhammer that they knew where to look. It's a requirement of NEPA, CEQA, and other legislation. It's also just good sense. No one wants to pay for paleontological research (other than the occasional dinosaur or early human research), so if you know there's going to be construction you want one of us out there--it's probably the only chance we'll ever have of excavating enough material to ensure a good sample of the area.

The question I have is, who's doing the curation? Cetaceans aren't exactly uncommon in California, and they're often huge--a lot of museums simply don't have the facilities to accept them.
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Old 21st February 2013, 03:41 PM   #251
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^Thanks for the insights, Dinwar. I've been often challenged by bigfooters that "no one's looking for their remains" so we shouldn't expect any to be found. It's just funny how reality jumps up and slaps you in the face sometimes.
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Old 21st February 2013, 03:42 PM   #252
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^BTW, I need to share an obligatory "Jefferson's" joke now:

"Florence! Would you mind getting the door?"

"That's all right Mr. Jefferson, you can get it!"
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Old 21st February 2013, 03:45 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
^Thanks for the insights, Dinwar. I've been often challenged by bigfooters that "no one's looking for their remains" so we shouldn't expect any to be found. It's just funny how reality jumps up and slaps you in the face sometimes.
Glad I could help!

Though to be fair, I'm not sure what the laws are in more common bigfoot territory. I do know that Washington State has some requirements for paleo work (spent a month doing 10 hours of field work out there, than 4 or 5 hours of office work for a project up there). I know any construction on federal land requires paleontological reviews and oversight. But you might want to look into the exact locations the cryptid advocate is talking about to be sure people are looking.

I can tell you this: ape bones would just that portion of the project down so fast that there'd be a sonic boom from the regulators flocking out to see them. I had some regulators come out to see a few camel bone fragments once, and those are fairly common. Non-human ape bones in a job site in North America would be world-wide news.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 09:10 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
I can tell you this: ape bones would just that portion of the project down so fast that there'd be a sonic boom from the regulators flocking out to see them.
Precisely. A bigfoot molar is going to look like a big human tooth to the uninitiated (or a regular human tooth if from a smaller bigfoot), and that's going to grab some attention from the paleo folks, the archaeo folks, and the forensics folks.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 06:50 AM   #255
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It can also look like a cow molar too.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 05:43 PM   #256
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The Flatwoods Monster

As a kid, this monster story spooked my imagination. A space-alien cryptid account from 1952, here is how the event is typically recounted in paranormal circles: http://www.ufocasebook.com/Flatwoods.html

The skeptic Joe Nickell has offered the following mundane explanation for the Flatwoods Monster story: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/flatwoods_ufo_monster/

Nickell's explanation has met resistance with paranormalists who prefer the space monster solution to the owl solution.

This is a continuing issue, I think, in the friction between paranormalists and skeptics. If eyewitnesses tell an incredible story, it is the skeptical rejoinder explaining the incredible story prosaically that is considered truly incredible.

It's almost as if witness accounts are taken as literally as given, without considering the effects of expectant anticipation, in the moment excitement, popular culture influences, etc.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 08:14 AM   #257
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I agree with Nickell that an owl is the most likely explanation for that event, but disagree that Barn Owl was the culprit. Barn Owls are creatures of wide open grasslands (adjacent to nesting sites of course), and they are rare and local in WV. They're on the rebound now thanks to aggressive nest box programs and the conversion of forest to grassland through the magic of strip mine reclamation, but they still are very limited in distribution in the state. Back in the 1950s they were possibly more widespread, but I did a search of Christmas Birds Counts in the state and found that they were reporting 0–1 individuals reported across the entire state back then.

In contrast, Great Horned Owl should have been common back then, and a mix of forests and fields suits them just fine. In addition to their familiar hooting, Great Horneds screech, hiss, and make sounds every bit as terrifying as Barns. Of course . . .

the data show Great Horneds to have been even less common than Barn Owls in the 1950s, so I don't know what that means. They might actually have been really rare back then due to predator bounties knocking their numbers down, or perhaps people weren't making an effort to go find them and the small number of Barn Owls that were reported came from known nesting pairs in someone's barn. I really have a hard time envisioning a West Virginia that's devoid of Great Horned Owls but has Barn Owls.

ANYway, all owls give threat displays that can startle even the most seasoned outdoorsperson, and they involve spreading and raising the wings and lowering the head. With the secondary flight feathers fully raised, the effect is that of a peak behind the top of the head, with the rest of the primaries and secondaries forming a "halo" around the angry, hissing face with the glowing red eyes. Here's a great example from a Long-eared Owl.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 08:26 AM   #258
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The average person would need to study that for a few minutes to figure out what it is, especially at night while it's making awful noises, but most folks are going to head the other way instead. And because it's in a tree or on a perch it's fairly obvious that some of the witnesses will claim they ran across a 10' tall creature.

I've spent a fair amount of time in the woods but coming across owls, even if they arent' doing anything, still makes my heart skip a beat. Owls and snakes!

Here is Shrike's photo.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 08:27 AM   #259
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What about Barred Owls? I have many here in South Carolina and have been swooped by one late at night. You don't what real fear is until a Barred Owl flies in your face.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 09:43 AM   #260
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The pro-monster enthusiasts ridicule the owl solution. Even the school teacher involved said it wasn't an owl.

It seems a plausible explanation, even though I think Nickell errs when he gets too specific in naming the species.

Also, I would be willing to bet that not all the witnesses saw the thing. Maybe the first kid or two were frightened by what they saw, turned and ran back down the hill with the others, scared too, following in tandem. In all the excitement, with the first two kids jabbering on about a tall monster with spaded head gear, the rest of the impressionable gang simply fell in line believing they had seen the same thing.

The owl interpretation is reasonable. However, in the land of the paranormal, such mundane explanations must be as solidly proven as the monster interpretation, which is not reasonable on its face.

When an episode of MonsterQuest investigated the Flatwoods Monster, both Joe Nickell and Stanton Friedman were on the show. I remember some web sites were excoriating Nickell for his owl interpretation while championing Friedman for his solid investigation. Sad, really sad.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 10:13 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
I remember some web sites were excoriating Nickell for his owl interpretation while championing Friedman for his solid investigation. Sad, really sad.
That's why it's so important to get EVERYTHING right when providing a competing hypothesis. Nowhere in Nickell's comments did I see that he had talked to any ornithologists in West Virginia about the abundance and distribution of owls in WV in the 1950s. He read some things, got in his head the notion that Barn Owls make a scary noise, and he ran with it. He missed:

1) that other, more common species make equally scary, screeching and hissing noises

2) that the habitat at the location is likely unsuitable for Barn Owl

3) that owls have a threat display that creates a shape very much like that described by the witnesses.

All it takes is one person to point out something like "there are no Barn Owls in Braxton Co., WV" and Nickell's opinion is discarded as nothing but a skeptical brush-off. It ends up doing more harm than good.

I see this often with skeptics, including such heavy hitters as Radford or the SGU, that "wildlife" information can be poorly understood and poorly presented in their statements. I just think they're ignorant of what wildlife scientists, birders, hunters, etc. actually know about their species of interest. They think they can check a wiki page and get it, but they can't. They end up making the same mistakes for which they would skewer other folks, and it erodes their credibility on some issues. If you leave that door open even a crack, the Woo-ites will be on you like white on rice.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 10:53 AM   #262
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Good points, Shrike.

Also, the monster defenders were arguing that folks in and around Flatwoods would know what an owl looks like.

In looking at sightings in the most literal way, which is how the paranormals look at sightings, robs the event of the roles of imagination, memory, and a host of other human elements, social and personal, that may shine light on it.

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Old 3rd March 2013, 11:35 AM   #263
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Put in a branch and you've got a perched bird viewed from below.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 12:41 PM   #264
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And the cultural elements helped convert an owl into a monster. The previous year: http://classicscifi.blogspot.com/200...her-world.html
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Old 3rd March 2013, 10:38 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What about Barred Owls? I have many here in South Carolina and have been swooped by one late at night. You don't what real fear is until a Barred Owl flies in your face.
Second that. A barred owl, even though a little smaller than a great horned, and even if you know what it is and even if you realize it was just an owl a minute later, will make you jump right out of your skin.
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Old 6th March 2013, 07:38 AM   #266
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I loved the Flatwoods Monster story as a kid - but I must admit I always thought the explanation they had 'seen an owl' was more an attempt to explain it away rather than any attempt to explain what they may have actually seen.

The postings above put an entirely new light on it though.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 03:08 PM   #267
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Eyewitness Studies

Cryptozoology is the study of hidden or out the normal animals. With few exceptions, the maybe-animals studied have little or no evidence for their existence, with the exception of eyewitness testimonies. Eyewitness accounting is the engine that pulls cryptozoology along the tracks of popular culture.

I've been meaning to post some formal rebuttals to the idea that eye-witnessing is a strong form of evidence, in and of itself. Some of the cases I cited above show how far off the mark an eyewitness can be. Here is one paper that addresses some of the issues we all should be familiar with.

http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue...er&tversky.htm
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Old 23rd March 2013, 03:19 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Cryptozoology is the study of hidden or out the normal animals. With few exceptions, the maybe-animals studied have little or no evidence for their existence, with the exception of eyewitness testimonies. Eyewitness accounting is the engine that pulls cryptozoology along the tracks of popular culture.

I've been meaning to post some formal rebuttals to the idea that eye-witnessing is a strong form of evidence, in and of itself. Some of the cases I cited above show how far off the mark an eyewitness can be. Here is one paper that addresses some of the issues we all should be familiar with.

http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue...er&tversky.htm
That's a nice link.

I know you've spent some time bantering with bigfoot folks and I understand they have a grading system they apply to their sightings (A, B, C, etc) that I guess leads to the term "knower." Have you had any success with these folks in regards to memory fallibility and cognitive errors/biases?
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Old 23rd March 2013, 03:36 PM   #269
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The article stresses the importance of cross-examination by the opposing side, and a pre-selected unbiased jury making the judgement.

So in the case of sightings accounts in a place like the Bigfoot Field Researcher's Organization you have two of the three elements missing - the cross examination and the impartial jury.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 03:44 PM   #270
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Bigfoot Conference and Lake Worth Monster

Recently the Texas Bigfoot Research Conservancy held their annual conference in Ft. Worth, Texas. The Conservancy has changed its name to the North American Wood Ape Research Conservancy for reasons given here:
http://woodape.org/index.php/news/ne...-nawacannounce

The conference didn't garner much newspaper coverage, strange given its prior statements that it has located a group of giant apes unknown to science in the hills of eastern Oklahoma. According to the Star Telegram:
http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/03...r-in-fort.html

The statement in this article that concerns me is by Lyle Blackburn, the young writer encountered above about an unvetted Fouke Monster eyewitness account. Blackburn states "At one point, 40 people saw this thing." "Forty witnesses is one of the outstanding cases." He is referring to the Lake Worth Monster story. The sightings of the strange creature is covered above in this thread.

The Lake Worth Monster was initially a goat man story, later converted into a Bigfoot encounter. The Lake Worth story has an improbable monster at its core, enough teenagers running around pranking and panicking to seriously confuse the issue, little follow up to make sense of it all, and an eventual confession by one of the prankers.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if Blackburn's next book will include the Lake Worth Monster of momentary, dubious fame, converting it to fit into a Bigfoot casebook.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 04:11 PM   #271
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From the TBRC link jerry cited:

Quote:
we feel that the needs of this amazing species are poorly served by the silly patina that has accreted over the term "Bigfoot."

Hopefully, our efforts or the efforts of others will make the North American wood ape a serious topic. We believe changing the very words we use while getting there is an important part of that process.
Heh. We'll change the name from bigfoot to wood ape and that will make it a serious subject.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 04:13 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
That's a nice link.

I know you've spent some time bantering with bigfoot folks and I understand they have a grading system they apply to their sightings (A, B, C, etc) that I guess leads to the term "knower." Have you had any success with these folks in regards to memory fallibility and cognitive errors/biases?
Some are more open than others, but generally speaking, no. They have the idea that eyewitness accounts are less fallible than they really are. When it is noted that such things as the problems with memory fallibility and other errors taint the certainty of reports, they move the goal post to include not just eyewitness testimony per se, but the number of such accounts, the consistency of such accounts, etc., that they believe strengthen eyewitness accounts. If you note that such factors actually support as well the idea that Bigfoot is a cultural meme, a contemporary bestiary of lore, then Bigfoot enthusiasts fall back again on the alleged strength of individual sightings: People see what they say they see; eyewitness testimony is good enough to determine verdicts in courts of law, etc. It is arguing in a circle.

I recently tried introducing contemporary werewolf sightings at BFF when Bigfoot eyewitness accounts were being discussed. The responders, fully acclimated to Bigfoot lore, basically argued that everyone knows that werewolves are not real, and that Bigfoot is evidenced by the number and consistency of reports. The fact that singular sightings of werewolves and Bigfoot are constructed similarly and with the same seeming authenticity, if you dismiss one account (werewolf), you're dismissing the very idea you are trying to assert, namely, people see what they claim to see.

Last edited by jerrywayne; 23rd March 2013 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 08:24 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Some are more open than others, but generally speaking, no. They have the idea that eyewitness accounts are less fallible than they really are. When it is noted that such things as the problems with memory fallibility and other errors taint the certainty of reports, they move the goal post to include not just eyewitness testimony per se, but the number of such accounts, the consistency of such accounts, etc., that they believe strengthen eyewitness accounts. If you note that such factors actually support as well the idea that Bigfoot is a cultural meme, a contemporary bestiary of lore, then Bigfoot enthusiasts fall back again on the alleged strength of individual sightings: People see what they say they see; eyewitness testimony is good enough to determine verdicts in courts of law, etc. It is arguing in a circle.

I recently tried introducing contemporary werewolf sightings at BFF when Bigfoot eyewitness accounts were being discussed. The responders, fully acclimated to Bigfoot lore, basically argued that everyone knows that werewolves are not real, and that Bigfoot is evidenced by the number and consistency of reports. The fact that singular sightings of werewolves and Bigfoot are constructed similarly and with the same seeming authenticity, if you dismiss one account (werewolf), you're dismissing the very idea you are trying to assert, namely, people see what they claim to see.
This is the problem with seeing cryptids in general. The first principal isn't seriously considered or is dismissed out of hand; in this case, did x really see what is claimed? If one is just going to accept the claim out of hand, the garbage is already in, and you're gonna get garbage out. Everything is skewed at point A.
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Old 24th March 2013, 01:33 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
In a post above I lay out a hypothetical about how a Bigfoot sighting could originate from a moose sighting.

Check out the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rPsU...layer_embedded

The fellow commenting on the video mistakes the back end of a moose for a sasquatch. He remarks about the "upright" stance of the animal, and even infers that the Bigfoot dropped something, implying a grasping hand, when all it is is a moose stepping on some debris.
I remember seeing a large bison head-on in Yellowstone and my initial impression was of a large hairy biped.
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Old 26th March 2013, 06:35 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Recently the Texas Bigfoot Research Conservancy held their annual conference in Ft. Worth, Texas. The Conservancy has changed its name to the North American Wood Ape Research Conservancy for reasons given here:
http://woodape.org/index.php/news/ne...-nawacannounce
Wow, thanks for that link. This was the first I'd really dug into their "wood ape" thing.

I still don't get what they think bigfoots need to be protected from.
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Old 26th March 2013, 07:42 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Wow, thanks for that link. This was the first I'd really dug into their "wood ape" thing.

I still don't get what they think bigfoots need to be protected from.
From the Texas Bigfoot Research Conservancy I imagine. I mean, aren't these folks trying to shoot one? I get all these groups mixed up.
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Old 27th March 2013, 01:11 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
From the Texas Bigfoot Research Conservancy I imagine. I mean, aren't these folks trying to shoot one? I get all these groups mixed up.
Do try and keep up

Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Recently the Texas Bigfoot Research Conservancy ........has changed its name to the North American Wood Ape Research Conservancy .............
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Old 27th March 2013, 04:37 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Do try and keep up
I actually knew that due to my ability to, I dunno, read. They're still trying to shoot them despite the name change, correct?

Which makes the whole conservancy name change kinda ironic.

I mean as ironic as trying to conserve a non-existent cryptid can be.
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Old 27th March 2013, 05:58 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I mean as ironic as trying to conserve a non-existent cryptid can be.
Well it's way more ironic than rain on your wedding day.
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Old 27th March 2013, 06:20 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Well it's way more ironic than rain on your wedding day.
Think Alanis wants that one back?
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