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Old 31st March 2017, 03:09 AM   #1
Shuca
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Physics question

I am aware of the fact that in terms of physics ‘energy healing’ is considered by many nothing more than fringe or pseudoscience. However, here and there I find some claims about new ‘subtle’ energy discoveries from certain individuals, which, for me, are hard to explain. One of them is a German chemist Klaus Volkamer who claims that he has material evidence of some kind of new energy that can be connected with energy healing. Some of his work is represented here:
https://klaus-volkamer.de/wp-content...xploration.pdf

Here is a critical examination of the previous paper:
https://www.allmystery.de/dateien/72...amer_et_al.pdf

Here is short review of his book:
http://www.brosowski-publishing.com/...-6_extract.pdf

In addition, he claims that he has succeeded in measuring that subtle energy. In his interviews, he claims that he has conducted an experiment in which one ‘gifted’ person concentrated on an item placed in a fine-weighting instrument and the apparatus measured a change of 30 micrograms. However, I could not find any published papers on that experiment. Therefore, I do not know protocols or other detail of the experiment. However, I am interested on alternative explanations for that measurement change because my knowledge of fine-measuring instruments and physics is not so good. Here are some further details taken from one critical site:
“Volkamer believes that there is an invisible ‘fine-material matter’ whose ‘mass’ is demonstrable with conventional precision scales with data connection for data recording and which also has an ‘energy’. The postulated ‘fine-material matter’ according to Volkamer, however, has not yet been scientifically acknowledged. A particular property assumed is their storage capacity. Thus, according to Volkamer, ‘bioactive information’ could be stored and re-expressed. To this ‘subtle energy’, he assigns certain ‘quanta’, with a ‘spatially extended field structure of extremely low density’. Volkamer's ‘quanta’ are supposed to be smaller by ten piles than well-known elementary particles, but at the same time, they are to be more massive and fill the entire space, including the vacuum or interstellar space. Volkamer also conducted experiments to prove his ‘fine matter’. For this purpose he used a fine scale with a resolution <5μg to prove that mass is not to be regarded as constant in time. Thus, for example, Volkamer believed that he had observed the telekinetic influence of a spiritual healer on a scale (see the right hand curve). The mind healer should concentrate on a ‘measure’ of a mass 4 meters away. As expected, a data record shows an apparent response of the scale, which Volkamer understood as a mass change of 30 micrograms. The eyes should play a special role, since the ‘life energy’ meant by this is transmitted.”
Source: https://www.psiram.com/ge/index.php/Klaus_Volkamer (the site is on the German language so you need to use translator)
Would some of you be kind enough, look into his work, and give some insight. In addition, I would appreciate your opinions on fine weighting measurements described in this post, as I am not a physics expert.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:24 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Shuca View Post
In addition, I would appreciate your opinions on fine weighting measurements described in this post, as I am not a physics expert.
You don't need physics to see what a mish-mash of outright crankery that guy is spouting. It's nuttier that squirrel poop.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:25 AM   #3
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I'm not very familiar with his work, but the investigative steps are nothing special. You first lock down the phenomenon so it can be repeated at will. Then you set about varying the circumstances in small ways to see what changes. After doing that for awhile you start looking for an explanation that fits what you found.

What you don't do is find a phenomenon and start jumping right to the explanation part before the phenomenon itself has been well described. The more subtle the phenomenon, the harder it is to do this. But you have to do it or it's just pulling crap out of nowhere.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:34 AM   #4
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Has anyone replicated the work? If not, why do you think that might be?
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:53 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What you don't do is find a phenomenon and start jumping right to the explanation part …
It's even worse. There is no finding of an actual phenomenon here. It's merely the desire that such a phenomenon should be; a desire driven by baser motives blatant and covert.
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Old 31st March 2017, 05:19 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
It's even worse. There is no finding of an actual phenomenon here. It's merely the desire that such a phenomenon should be; a desire driven by baser motives blatant and covert.
Hey... that's how you make movies, not physics.
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Old 31st March 2017, 06:32 AM   #7
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I have long been able to feel energy flowing from my finger tips. If I wave my finger tips over the palm of the other hand a few inches away from it I can feel energy flowing.
It may be an electrical field as I know I can produce a sign wave on an oscilloscope by holding the tip of the probe. But I think the energy I feel flowing between my hands is different. It seems to me there should be some way to measure it.

I have once waved my fingers over another persons hand and they could feel it too.
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Old 31st March 2017, 06:40 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have long been able to feel energy flowing from my finger tips. If I wave my finger tips over the palm of the other hand a few inches away from it I can feel energy flowing.
It may be an electrical field as I know I can produce a sign wave on an oscilloscope by holding the tip of the probe. But I think the energy I feel flowing between my hands is different. It seems to me there should be some way to measure it.

I have once waved my fingers over another persons hand and they could feel it too.
You could try setting up blinded conditions, where you didn't know if a hand was under a piece of cardboard or not. I think that's how Reiki was debunked.
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Old 31st March 2017, 06:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have long been able to feel energy flowing from my finger tips. If I wave my finger tips over the palm of the other hand a few inches away from it I can feel energy flowing.
It may be an electrical field as I know I can produce a sign wave on an oscilloscope by holding the tip of the probe. But I think the energy I feel flowing between my hands is different. It seems to me there should be some way to measure it.

I have once waved my fingers over another persons hand and they could feel it too.
What did the sign wave have written on it?? Or, is it possible you saw a sine wave instead????? In case you missed it, I doubt seriously you have such a field (strength) surrounding you. Touching the probe is not the same as getting a signal without touching/holding it.
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Old 31st March 2017, 06:43 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
You could try setting up blinded conditions, where you didn't know if a hand was under a piece of cardboard or not. I think that's how Reiki was debunked.
Essentially that one was done by a smart young girl!!! I will see if I can pull up the data, but it is well known that the kid caught them well!!!!!
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Old 31st March 2017, 06:49 AM   #11
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http://www.quackwatch.com/01Quackery...opics/tt2.html

Go down to the part titled The Final Straw -though the whole article is worth reading - for the experiment that got the girl published in JAMA and broke the back of Healing Touchers and their fake practices!!!!!!
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Old 31st March 2017, 06:50 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It may be an electrical field as I know I can produce a sign wave on an oscilloscope by holding the tip of the probe.
So can anybody. Your body is a conductor, and when you hold the tip of an oscilloscope probe it's acting as an aerial. In fact, oscilloscope cables have to be carefully shielded so as not to pick up sine waves, or other electromagnetic interference, from the environment.

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Old 31st March 2017, 06:50 AM   #13
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Note that took just 5 minutes to think of and go to and post!!!!!
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Old 31st March 2017, 07:24 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
What did the sign wave have written on it?? Or, is it possible you saw a sine wave instead????? In case you missed it, I doubt seriously you have such a field (strength) surrounding you. Touching the probe is not the same as getting a signal without touching/holding it.
I will experiment to see if I can detect a wave without touching the probe. And I will see if I can still feel movement by waving my fingers over my palms with an earthed screen between my hands. That would rule out an electrical field.

Edit : there will be a slight delay in using my scope because I cannot find the test probe. I just ordered one from amazon and will have to wait for it to arrive.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 31st March 2017 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 31st March 2017, 09:59 AM   #15
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Won't rule out imagination though.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:03 AM   #16
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I finally found the probe and I tried to pass my fingers as close to it as possible, but there was no wave form until I actually touched the tip of it. So that shows it is not electrical radiation from my body. But I can definitely feel some energy passing between my hands even a foot away.

I suggest everyone tries it to see if it happens to you too. Just hold up one hand then hold the other hand so that the fingers are over the other palm but a few inches away. Then wave your fingers and see if you can feel the movement in your palm.

As I said I have tried this on another person, and they could feel it too. but that was years ago.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:24 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
What did the sign wave have written on it?? Or, is it possible you saw a sine wave instead????? In case you missed it, I doubt seriously you have such a field (strength) surrounding you. Touching the probe is not the same as getting a signal without touching/holding it.
Pretty much anyone can produce a sine wave on a 'scope. It's pick-up from ambient AC. Nothing special.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:26 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I finally found the probe and I tried to pass my fingers as close to it as possible, but there was no wave form until I actually touched the tip of it. So that shows it is not electrical radiation from my body. But I can definitely feel some energy passing between my hands even a foot away.

I suggest everyone tries it to see if it happens to you too. Just hold up one hand then hold the other hand so that the fingers are over the other palm but a few inches away. Then wave your fingers and see if you can feel the movement in your palm.

As I said I have tried this on another person, and they could feel it too. but that was years ago.
You might have a biology question here rather than a physics question.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:33 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Won't rule out imagination though.
Badum-tish!
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:38 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Pretty much anyone can produce a sine wave on a 'scope. It's pick-up from ambient AC. Nothing special.
Yes, it is clearly radiation from local electrical supply's permeating the body, which is largely water. My point is that it does not radiate outside the body. Not unless it is at too low a level to detect with a scope. Because even with my fingers almost touching the probe there is no waveform. But I can feel some kind of energy radiating between my hands even at some distance.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:50 AM   #21
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"I can feel it" isn't going to win the Nobel prize, now is it.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:52 AM   #22
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I have changed my mind. At the highest amplitude there is a slight change in the scopes waveform when I pass my hand over the tip of the probe without touching it. So there is an energy field around the body. Maybe that is what I can feel.
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have changed my mind. At the highest amplitude there is a slight change in the scopes waveform when I pass my hand over the tip of the probe without touching it.
That's capacitive coupling between the probe and the antenna formed by your body. It'll pass AC waveforms, though not very efficiently, even when there's no DC connection. Again, a mundane and well understood phenomenon.

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Old 31st March 2017, 12:05 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I suggest everyone tries it to see if it happens to you too. Just hold up one hand then hold the other hand so that the fingers are over the other palm but a few inches away. Then wave your fingers and see if you can feel the movement in your palm.
If you have a normal awareness of your body, you have an understanding of where your hands are relative to one another, and you can fool yourself that there's some other interaction. It's untestable, of course, because you can't do double blind studies on yourself.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As I said I have tried this on another person, and they could feel it too. but that was years ago.
If you actually want to investigate this, try to work out how to construct an experiment whereby someone can discern the presence of your hand by some means other than seeing that it's there. Try to eliminate things like your hand casting a shadow on theirs - the difference in heat input might be discernible - or air movement, which the skin can be very sensitive to. Everybody who's tried to find anything of this nature so far has failed to detect anything provable, but you may be the first. But make sure you do it very carefully, because nobody will believe you unless you eliminate every possible spurious effect.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If you have a normal awareness of your body, you have an understanding of where your hands are relative to one another, and you can fool yourself that there's some other interaction. It's untestable, of course, because you can't do double blind studies on yourself.



If you actually want to investigate this, try to work out how to construct an experiment whereby someone can discern the presence of your hand by some means other than seeing that it's there. Try to eliminate things like your hand casting a shadow on theirs - the difference in heat input might be discernible - or air movement, which the skin can be very sensitive to. Everybody who's tried to find anything of this nature so far has failed to detect anything provable, but you may be the first. But make sure you do it very carefully, because nobody will believe you unless you eliminate every possible spurious effect.

Dave
Thanks. The next thing I am going to do is earth a sheet of metal and see if I can feel the energy passing through it, as this would eliminate AC electrical fields.
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:36 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Thanks. The next thing I am going to do is earth a sheet of metal and see if I can feel the energy passing through it, as this would eliminate AC electrical fields.
If I were you I wouldn't go the route of testing myself, because you'll never be able to eliminate the simple causal link that you know where both your hands are relative to one another. Unless you can demonstrate having some effect on another person in a way that eliminates all trivial possibilities, all you'll have is anecdotes.

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Old 31st March 2017, 12:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Again, a mundane and well understood phenomenon.
Isn't that essentially how a theremin works?
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:53 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Isn't that essentially how a theremin works?
I think Theremins use radio waves and tuned circuits.
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I think Theremins use radio waves and tuned circuits.
The capacitor formed between the hand of the player and the antenna of the theremin is a component of the tuned circuit. So, yes, Jay Utah is right; that's very specifically a part of how a theremin works.

Dave
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The capacitor formed between the hand of the player and the antenna of the theremin is a component of the tuned circuit. So, yes, Jay Utah is right; that's very specifically a part of how a theremin works.

Dave
I had to sell my theremin; but it's OK...I hadn't touched it in years.
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I had to sell my theremin; but it's OK...I hadn't touched it in years.

image credit: giphy.com
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Old 31st March 2017, 09:17 PM   #32
Jim_MDP
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post


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Old 31st March 2017, 10:33 PM   #33
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If I were you I wouldn't go the route of testing myself, because you'll never be able to eliminate the simple causal link that you know where both your hands are relative to one another. Unless you can demonstrate having some effect on another person in a way that eliminates all trivial possibilities, all you'll have is anecdotes.

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It's called proprioception. It is one of the nine senses, five traditional plus four little mentioned ones.

Hands are marvellously sensitive things. I can, for example, feel the heat radiating from someone else's hand without touching. Nothing remarkable about it, it's heat. Anyone can do that. The woo enters the fray by claiming that one can manipulate that "energy" somehow. Well, one can't. The Laws of Thermodynamics merely allow one to detect the heat source and there it ends.
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Old 1st April 2017, 05:44 AM   #34
marplots
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It's called proprioception. It is one of the nine senses, five traditional plus four little mentioned ones.

Hands are marvellously sensitive things. I can, for example, feel the heat radiating from someone else's hand without touching. Nothing remarkable about it, it's heat. Anyone can do that. The woo enters the fray by claiming that one can manipulate that "energy" somehow. Well, one can't. The Laws of Thermodynamics merely allow one to detect the heat source and there it ends.
I beg to differ. There's a great deal that is remarkable about it.
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Old 1st April 2017, 06:34 AM   #35
Toke
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That's capacitive coupling between the probe and the antenna formed by your body. It'll pass AC waveforms, though not very efficiently, even when there's no DC connection. Again, a mundane and well understood phenomenon.

Dave
(My bolding)
Yes, and capacitive sensors are pretty common in industry.
Getting a sensitive instrument to react to your body is not anything special.
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Old 1st April 2017, 07:25 AM   #36
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Yourself is always good liar .. he's so easy to believe .. especially if you wish he was true.
Anyway .. never think in this way: I don't understand A, therefore B must be true. If you don't understand A, try to learn more about A.

Btw. I can see polarization of light. Beat that !
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Old 1st April 2017, 07:27 AM   #37
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In terms of the OP- 30 micrograms is a very, very tiny mass and I am certain that almost any device accessible to Volkamer to weigh it would show at least some random fluctuations from outside vibrations, changes in humidity, incomplete sealing against air currents, static electricity, mechanical or electronic noise, etc. I have an excellent, if standard chemistry lab analytic balance and one sees this sort of thing even weighing a 1 milligram mass. As has happened over and over again in studies of paranormal phenomenon, I suspect that many trials were made to have a person influence the weight, and the random snippets of times some change was observed were counted as a success and the individual involved was viewed as gifted. The random snippets of time nothing happened were not counted and the individual involved was considered as not among the gifted (or too tired, etc.). Selective interpretation of a random phenomenon. Very human.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 12:35 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
In terms of the OP- 30 micrograms is a very, very tiny mass and I am certain that almost any device accessible to Volkamer to weigh it would show at least some random fluctuations from outside vibrations, changes in humidity, incomplete sealing against air currents, static electricity, mechanical or electronic noise, etc. I have an excellent, if standard chemistry lab analytic balance and one sees this sort of thing even weighing a 1 milligram mass. As has happened over and over again in studies of paranormal phenomenon, I suspect that many trials were made to have a person influence the weight, and the random snippets of times some change was observed were counted as a success and the individual involved was viewed as gifted. The random snippets of time nothing happened were not counted and the individual involved was considered as not among the gifted (or too tired, etc.). Selective interpretation of a random phenomenon. Very human.
Thanks Giordano,
I didn't know that fine weighting instrument can have fluctuations up to miligram, which is far bigger than microgram. I agree with you that proper experimentation is needed if we want to find evidence of something elusive and yet material.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 06:44 AM   #39
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My google-fu is weak today. Yesterday I was watching a documentary on marsupials and how echidnas (I already knew of some fish) use electroreception to detect prey. Anyone know what strength these bioelectric fields are? I have got lost in a maze of medical fields I never knew existed.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 09:36 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
My google-fu is weak today. Yesterday I was watching a documentary on marsupials and how echidnas (I already knew of some fish) use electroreception to detect prey. Anyone know what strength these bioelectric fields are? I have got lost in a maze of medical fields I never knew existed.
Those fields are really weak.
Have heard of cods refusing to bite on a trolling machine with an earth failure. That is 24V at the end on 100-200m of nylon line through salt water. Should not be measurable.
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