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Old 11th September 2019, 11:44 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Or... now, hear me out because I know this sounds crazy... but maybe, just maybe there are people who are genuinely concerned about the children dying from neglect while in the custody of the government.
The constant mischaracterizations and histrionics are an indication that posters here are feigning concern.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:11 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The constant mischaracterizations and histrionics are an indication that posters here are feigning concern.
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Old 12th September 2019, 02:59 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Thanks for setting the record straight.

Six children dying due to neglect while in the care of our government would of course have been unacceptable.
Thats crazy, of course it is OK. You have to accept a certain amount of breakage whenever you take people into forced custody. I mean the beatings and ignoring from the guards is a given so what else does one expect?

Next you are going to be upset by guards laughing at prisoners as they die or something normal like that. The deaths are simply a natural, normal, and expected consequence of locking them up. To question that is to question the entire system of forced confinement in the US.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:00 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
While I feel much compassion for those victims and their families you mention, we must not forget the serious issue of the long term psychological impact the traumatic experience of being separated from their parents for extended periods will have on these children. Most of them will take a long time to recover - some might never do so.
But inflicting that trauma was the entire point of the exorcise!
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:35 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Richard Spencer is in his 40s
Gavin McInnes turns 50 next year
David Duke is just about 70

I'm doubting it's a phase.
Perhaps now is as good a time as any to quote a wise man who knew a thing or two about evildoers....

"In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers, we are not simply protecting their trivial old age, we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations."
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn in "The Gulag Archipelago"
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:46 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Or... now, hear me out because I know this sounds crazy... but maybe, just maybe there are people who are genuinely concerned about the children dying from neglect while in the custody of the government.
As we all know, there are sociopathic people in this world. People who simply cannot comprehend the concept of compassion. There is currently one such person occupying the US White House. His presence there emboldens other american sociopaths to crawl out from under their rocks and put their illness on full display for the world to see.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:55 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
As we all know, there are sociopathic people in this world. People who simply cannot comprehend the concept of compassion. There is currently one such person occupying the US White House. His presence there emboldens other american sociopaths to crawl out from under their rocks and put their illness on full display for the world to see.
Lol

Far out it is going to be funny when the idiot gets a second term
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:16 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Lol

Far out it is going to be funny when the idiot gets a second term
I do not see the humor.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:20 AM   #89
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Me neither.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:31 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Lol

Far out it is going to be funny when the idiot gets a second term

Do you think the incarcerated children at the border will find it funny?
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:35 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Do you think the incarcerated children at the border will find it funny?
Well, SCOTUS just solved that one. No more asylum seekers.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:07 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The constant mischaracterizations and histrionics are an indication that posters here are feigning concern.
I think it's bad if children - no matter their immigration status - die in US custody.

Agree or disagree?
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:09 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There are literally going to be thousands of tragic cases like this. Many of them will be a lot worse. These children are going to have ongoing psychological problems well into adulthood, not just from their separation from their parents, but also from the sub-human conditions under which they are being caged.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But inflicting that trauma was the entire point of the exorcise!

That sounds like satire, but it's really not. That kind of separation and abuse is known to cause long-term psychological trauma, which makes it more difficult for children to form bonds, and very often result in poor socialization and increased aggression in children. Long-term, this means that they perform below their peers in school, have difficulty forming meaningful relationships, tend to act out more often and more violently, and generally have poorer life outcomes.

And this is not by any means speculation; we have decades of research data on this, involving minority communities -- mainly African-American and First Nations -- primarily as an aftermath of the War on Drugs destroying minority families, and the school-to-prison-pipeline that has resulted.

The current administration has been trumpeting the dangers of non-white immigrants, loudly declaring them to be dangerous violent criminals who cannot function in "civilized" society. These policies and practices are a very large step toward ensuring that is the case. This is very much a manufactured crisis, one which the GOP will no doubt be very quick to blame on Democrats when the fallout from it becomes unavoidable. When (if) the Dems regain power, they're going to have to deal with the damage caused, the difficulty of integrating these victims of maltreatment into society; which the GOP will no doubt be happy to use as a bludgeon to "prove" they were "right about these people all along".

They've created the scapegoat they will need to justify their xenophobic and racist agenda. Possibly deliberately, possibly incidentally, but it's done nevertheless.
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Last edited by luchog; 12th September 2019 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:38 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The constant mischaracterizations and histrionics are an indication that posters here are feigning concern.
You've made your position on dead children abundantly clear. You don't care. We get it. I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep announcing it.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:47 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
As we all know, there are sociopathic people in this world. People who simply cannot comprehend the concept of compassion. There is currently one such person occupying the US White House. His presence there emboldens other american sociopaths to crawl out from under their rocks and put their illness on full display for the world to see.
Labeling people who don't agree with an open borders policy as "sociopaths" is the sort of marginalization that gets people like Trump elected.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:47 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I think it's bad if children - no matter their immigration status - die in US custody.

Agree or disagree?
Going further out on that limb, children simply in the US shouldn't be dying of treatable conditions.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:49 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Labeling people who don't agree with an open borders policy as "sociopaths" is the sort of marginalization that gets people like Trump elected.
Imagine if you will, that some midground exists between open borders and children in cages with no access to soap.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:50 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Imagine if you will, that some midground exists between open borders and children in cages with no access to soap.
Commie.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:56 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
They've created the scapegoat they will need to justify their xenophobic and racist agenda.
Years in advance, in fact. It's evil genius at work.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:16 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Labeling people who don't agree with an open borders policy as "sociopaths" is the sort of marginalization that gets people like Trump elected.
Disingenuously misrepresenting someone else's position is the sort of fallacious argumentation that gets people not taken seriously on this forum.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:53 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Years in advance, in fact. It's evil genius at work.

I don't know that I'd call it genius, it's a pretty obvious move. Especially for a party that had spent the better part of two decades pushing anti-Clinton propaganda in anticipation of her potential presidential run; and longer than that gerrymandering districts in key battleground states. Not to mention the massive disinfo, agent provocateur, and assassination campaigns of COINTELPRO. Hell, the entire War on Drugs has been little more than a thinly-disguised ruse to marginalize and suppress minority communities.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:55 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Imagine if you will, that some midground exists between open borders and children in cages with no access to soap, adequate toilet facilities, or decent food.

FTFY
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:07 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Hell, the entire War on Drugs has been little more than a thinly-disguised ruse to marginalize and suppress minority communities.
I wonder if the enactors of those policies viewed it that way, of if it just fit their existing biases.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:33 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I wonder if the enactors of those policies viewed it that way, of if it just fit their existing biases.


There's that quote from Nixon aide John Ehrlichman

Quote:
The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.
I've always been a little suspiscious of how perfectly damning this quote came across. But then again, listen to the Nixon tapes, and this sort of mustache twirling villainous racism doesn't seem out of character from how that administration worked.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:54 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
There's that quote from Nixon aide John Ehrlichman



I've always been a little suspiscious of how perfectly damning this quote came across. But then again, listen to the Nixon tapes, and this sort of mustache twirling villainous racism doesn't seem out of character from how that administration worked.
On the other hand it seems to target political opposition, not race specifically.

Of course it's still mustache-twirling villainy.
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:01 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
On the other hand it seems to target political opposition, not race specifically.

Of course it's still mustache-twirling villainy.
I mean, it did target black people specifically.

And if you mean that the goal was political rather than a pure expression of direct desire to harm black people because of hatred, that's pretty much how the vast majority of institutionalized racism works. Its not about targetting minoritys just to target minorities. It's the willingness to massively harm them for your other ends.

Slavery in the US didn't come about because the white people here hated Africans so much from afar that they had to go over there and grab them just to torture them for a few centuries. It happened because they had an economic desire for cheap labor and they could get away with treating black people as less than human to acheive that goal.

The targeting of race can pretty much always come down to some self interest.
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I mean, it did target black people specifically.
Oh, definitely. But not because they were black; because they voted democrat or just opposed the administration, statistically.

I'm sure there was an element of racism in there was well, but it didn't seem to be the driving force.

Quote:
And if you mean that the goal was political rather than a pure expression of direct desire to harm black people because of hatred, that's pretty much how the vast majority of institutionalized racism works. Its not about targetting minoritys just to target minorities. It's the willingness to massively harm them for your other ends.
But is it racism, though? If hurting white people served your political ends, they'd do it as well.

Quote:
Slavery in the US didn't come about because the white people here hated Africans so much from afar that they had to go over there and grab them just to torture them for a few centuries. It happened because they had an economic desire for cheap labor and they could get away with treating black people as less than human to acheive that goal.
Because they didn't see them as equal to whites to begin with!
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:43 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, definitely. But not because they were black; because they voted democrat or just opposed the administration, statistically.

I'm sure there was an element of racism in there was well, but it didn't seem to be the driving force

Because they didn't see them as equal to whites to begin with!
The more mindless and primal sort of feeling of bigotry, and the more overtly political, calculated kinds of racial strategizing are all part of one big racist soup with this stuff. They can't really be separated from each other. They cause each other and are intrinsically intertwined in experience.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:42 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Do you think the incarcerated children at the border will find it funny?
Trump gets a second term, the US will be in state of de facto civil war before it's half over.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:42 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, definitely. But not because they were black; because they voted democrat or just opposed the administration, statistically.

I'm sure there was an element of racism in there was well, but it didn't seem to be the driving force.

Judging from my study of history, it does seem to be the driving force; that is, the extension of de facto slavery by whatever means they could manage. That -- preserving the de facto institution of slavery after its de novo prohibition -- was the primary impetus for the dramatic restructuring of the US prison system after the Civil War, as well as numerous vagrancy and "sundown" laws, and a good deal of Jim Crow legislation as well.

Quote:
But is it racism, though? If hurting white people served your political ends, they'd do it as well.

They certainly did hurt white people for a political end; hence the bits about the anti-war movement. But their focus on the black community went far beyond ordinary conservative politics; and the racism of Republican politicians at the time, and their Southern Democrat cum Republican supporters, was quite unambiguously expressed. It simply wasn't possible to separate racism from politics, as kellyb noted above. Which is fairly obvious if you read up on the COINTELPRO history and Nixon's tapes. There are passages of him expressing very strong opposition to the burgeoning Civil Rights movement, and a desire to stop leaders from mobilizing the movement. Nixon makes statements about want to "prevent a black messiah" or other charismatic leaders from energizing and focusing the movement, and similar comments along those lines.

That's why the persistent government harassment of and disinformation campaign against Dr. Martin Luther King and the Black Panther Party leaders, and the government-staged assassination of Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. There's strong circumstantial evidence that the government was behind the assassination of Dr. King as well.

No other minority group in the US has been targeted the way that African-Americans have.

Quote:
Because they didn't see them as equal to whites to begin with!

That's not strictly true either. Early on, certainly pre-Revolutionary War, slavery did not exclusively target Africans. Irish were also commonly targeted, although in their case it was euphemized as "indentured servitude". There was always considerable debate on the humanity of Africans, and it became a huge sticking point during the constitutional conferences, resulting in the "Three-Fifths Compromise", which enabled the slaveholder states to effectively deny franchise to their slaves and avoid white people being outvoted, while preserving the desired union of states.

The real push to portray black people as subhumans little better than animals was a later development, again originating predominantly in the slaveholder states, as a reaction to the both the increasing outlawing of slavery across Europe, and the abolition movement in the US. The latter in particular. At the time, the abolition movement was gaining ground in the US, using Europe as an example, and was based strongly on religious principles -- black people being children of G-D, fellow humans, and therefore deserving of being treated equally to white people -- with many of the movements leaders being prominent religious figures.

The northern states began outlawing slavery and freeing slave (which they didn't have many of in any case), and the movement and view of Africans began to gain increasing numbers of adherents. In reaction, pro-slavery religious leaders in the South began pounding away at their assertion that black people were not, in fact, fully human, and therefore not "equally children of G-D"; so in their view it was perfectly natural to enslave them much the same as any other animal. This was rapidly picked up by the governments of Southern states, and incorporated into their legislation, finding its fullest expression in the letters of secession of the various states and the constitution of the Confederacy. While there were certainly those in the north who held the same view, they were not nearly as numerous as in the south.
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Last edited by luchog; 12th September 2019 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:49 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I do not see the humor.
One reason I don't like "hipsters" very much is they make jokes about things you really should not joke about.
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Old 12th September 2019, 02:07 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Slavery in the US didn't come about because the white people here hated Africans so much from afar that they had to go over there and grab them just to torture them for a few centuries. It happened because they had an economic desire for cheap labor and they could get away with treating black people as less than human to acheive that goal.

Because they didn't see them as equal to whites to begin with!

Not true. Cavemonster got it right. African slaves were an improvement to plantation owners and colonialists over the indentured servitude of white Europeans because they were enslaved permanently and could easily be recognized as slaves if they tried to escape. Slave traders met and negotiated with the Africans who sold them the slaves, i.e. treated them basically the same way they would have treated other people they did business with.

Racism is the ideology that legitimizes this condition: Black people aren't suppressed, aren't exploited by us; we are actually doing them a favor because they don't know what's good for them. They even serve the wrong gods, a sin that only we can help them overcome. They are indeed the White Man's Burden, a burden that we are willing to take upon ourselves out of the goodness of our hearts.

The desire to exploit Africans for financial gain comes before the racist apologetics.
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Old 12th September 2019, 02:14 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Not true. Cavemonster got it right. African slaves were an improvement to plantation owners and colonialists over the indentured servitude of white Europeans because they were enslaved permanently and could easily be recognized as slaves if they tried to escape. Slave traders met and negotiated with the Africans who sold them the slaves, i.e. treated them basically the same way they would have treated other people they did business with.

There were some who considered Africans to be subhuman all along, just like there were some who considered the Irish to be subhuman, and some who considered the Slavic ethnic groups to be subhuman. That was always a justification, just not the primary justification; until the abolition movement really started to pick up steam, and slavery was on the verge of being outlawed entirely.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:21 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
TragicMonkey has a point that men tend to outgrow criminality by their late 20s to 30s or so.

But as long as the ethnonationalist "the browns and blacks are gonna outbreed us" myth hangs over their heads unchecked it could be cause for alarm for decades to come.
It's going to be hard to sustain that myth much longer what with the plummeting birthrates of browns and blacks and the exploding white population. I just got back from Los Angeles and all I saw everywhere I went were white faces. Even the gardeners and nannies had blonde hair and blue eyes and spoke the Queens English.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:29 PM   #115
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Today it's the people from South and Central America that are exploited for cheap labor, which is why neither "side" has done anything about illegal immigration worth talking about. Too much power and money is at stake.

Except that instead of buying them we just look the other way while they come over all by themselves. Our government wants them, but they do not want to help them. That is not why we let them in. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

Wasn't there a movie called "A Day Without A Mexican" that supposedly showed how bad we'd be without their cheap labor? To me it showed how good we are at ignoring what is happening (poor living conditions, no insurance, poor (even illegally low) wages, no benefits, the fact that it's illegal...) so we can have cheaper veggies and get our lawns mowed.

Different, yet the same. The people with power and money reap the benefits while they rest of us are suckered into allowing it to continue because "we care".
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:34 PM   #116
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's going to be hard to sustain that myth much longer what with the plummeting birthrates of browns and blacks and the exploding white population. I just got back from Los Angeles and all I saw everywhere I went were white faces. Even the gardeners and nannies had blonde hair and blue eyes and spoke the Queens English.

Yep. How many homeless are illegals that had no money and no place to go when they got here? You see all these people at the border with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Not all, but many.

We let in hundreds of thousands of poor people and wonder where the homeless are coming from, especially in southern and central California.

Hello, McFly???!!! The stupid is just piling on here.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:39 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You've made your position on dead children abundantly clear. You don't care. We get it. I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep announcing it.
This proves I'm right. I have never stated a position. My argument is that your and others' concern is feigned. Your sole interest is shaming. You're using the alleged mistreatment of children in a pitiful attempt to shame.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:46 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Labeling people who don't agree with an open borders policy as "sociopaths" is the sort of marginalization that gets people like Trump elected.
Then it seems to be a good thing that I did not do that.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:09 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Imagine if you will, that some midground exists between open borders and children in cages with no access to soap.
I hadn't heard of the highlighted before but I will take your word for it.

The problem remains that no matter where you set the bar, some people won't qualify and if they resist deportation then you will have "children in cages".
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:38 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I hadn't heard of the highlighted before but I will take your word for it.

The problem remains that no matter where you set the bar, some people won't qualify and if they resist deportation then you will have "children in cages".
The people in detention centers aren't there for resisting deportation.

Perhaps you hadn't heard about the soap issue because you are completely oblivious to what we're talking about and what's happening in this country.
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