ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 9/11 conspiracy theories , aidan monaghan , air traffic controllers , Journal of 9/11 Studies , transponders

Reply
Old 15th May 2017, 12:58 PM   #1
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,542
New JoNES article to shoot down: Transponder Activity

After two years in hibernation, Kevin Ryan's "Journal of 9/11 Studies" has published a new article:

"Implications of September 11 Flight Transponder Activity" by Aidan Monaghan, May 2017.

Abstract:
Originally Posted by Aidan Monaghan
It has been the consensus of informed observers that the loss or alteration of Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR) information for the four September 11 flights was caused by accused hijackers allegedly seizing control of the aircraft flight decks and manually turning off or adjusting each plane’s Mode S (Mode Select) transponder. This was presumably for the purpose of evading detection and interception by U.S. air defense systems. However, this view appears to be based only on circumstantial information - the simple loss or change of SSR flight data to Air Traffic Control (ATC) – and seems unsupported by conclusive facts. Following these transponder operation changes, ATC was still able to tag and track the primary radar returns of three flights and estimate their locations, directions, ground speeds, and even altitude changes.
I haven't read it, but since Monaghan is a Truther, Ryan is a Truther, and the JoNES is a Truther magazine, and since a 9/11 Truther, by my definition, is a person who is systematically wrong about almost every 9/11-related issue they utter an opinion on, I strongly expect it to be stupid crap. So have at it, beachy, Reheat, and anyone else interested in the air traffic issues.

EDIT: Nevermind. No edit.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

Last edited by Oystein; 15th May 2017 at 01:02 PM. Reason: I undid an edit
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2017, 02:03 PM   #2
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,183
Reading the article my question would be, So what?

The article assumes there would be an immediate need for ATC to track the plane. This would not be the case because it was still assumed the planes were under control of a responsible pilot. ATC would contact the flight and try to correct the situation all the while assuming the pilot was still going to fly his/her assigned route.

The article shows a basic lack of understanding of procedures using 20/20 hindsight to show what he thinks controllers should have done.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2017, 03:31 PM   #3
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,492
First of all, his basic premise is wrong. What other reason other than the hijackers turning off the transponder could there possibly be for the disappearance of their SSR info? Electrical failure is pretty remote and the most logical reason is that the hijackers wanted to make the airplanes more difficult to see and track. He continues to not understand how SSR works. ATC was NOT able to determine altitude and ground speed with the transponder off. This is plainly proven by controller statements and radio transmissions between the controllers and other aircraft. They had no idea of the altitude and only gross estimates of the speed. True, in some cases they could determine the location via primary radar, but it was somewhat spotty and in the case of AA77 and UA93 they could determine the location at all.

Transponders don't transmit heading information as he indicates. Yes, a track can be determined after the aircraft moves, but there is no heading displayed as he infers.

AA77 was a special case in that the transponder was turned off in an area which did not have primary radar coverage, therefore it was not tracked contemporaneously for that reason. After the fact, it was able to be tracked on the tapes from different radars.

Is he trying to impress someone with his knowledge? If so, it is a utter failure. It's not clear what the purpose of the article is, but whatever it is it's a failure as he gets basic facts wrong.

The whole thing is not even worthy of attention as it's just another "so what" failure by the truther crowd to create doubt or confusion about 9/11 conclusions. Next....
__________________
[Noc]

Last edited by Reheat; 15th May 2017 at 03:43 PM.
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2017, 02:07 AM   #4
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,033
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Transponders don't transmit heading information as he indicates. Yes, a track can be determined after the aircraft moves, but there is no heading displayed as he infers.
This!

The idiot has been watching too much "Air Crash Investigation", and totally misunderstanding the meaning of this type of often seen display...



The ONLY information in this block that is actually sent by the transponder is the altitude (15,100 ft) and the AC ident information (AAL76 = American Airlines Flt 76; the "H" warns ATC the aircraft is a "Heavy", a wide body jet such as a 747 or A340, and therefore capable of generating significant wake turbulence. The "T" on the right tells ATC that the aircraft is equipped with TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System). The transponder also sends "squawk codes" which can tell ATC a number of things about the aircraft, from the fact that it is flying VFR to whether there is an emergency on board.

The "23" is ground speed... 230 knots. This information (as well as any heading information that may appear on other ATC displays), is provided by what is known as "Hit Processing" . The data from PRIMARY radar is fed to a ground station (Radar Signal Processing) where it is analyzed to plot the position of the aircraft on each sweep of the radar beam. After a number of sweeps, as the aircraft moves, the ground speed and track can be determined and continually refined for accuracy. This derived information is then combined with information from the interrogated transponder (the SECONDARY radar) and is fed to ATC and displayed in their screens

Turning off the transponder only makes the altitude and A/C ident disappear, but the Primary radar can still track it and still determine the ground track and ground speed.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2017, 12:17 PM   #5
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,542
Thanks guys!

I, too, wondered what this "paper" is all about, as I couldn't discern an interesting purpose or hypothesis from the abstract.
Good to see that Monaghan delivers according to expectation.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2017, 04:41 PM   #6
BasqueArch
Graduate Poster
 
BasqueArch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,858
As is always the case when Falsers assert inside job fabrications, they reveal not what they know, but provide permanent confirmation of how much they don’t know; or choose not to know. Always.
__________________
In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.

Last edited by BasqueArch; 16th May 2017 at 04:44 PM.
BasqueArch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2017, 10:34 PM   #7
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,744
Another 9/11 truth paper which offers nothing of value. The conclusion ignores evidence, and does not make sense.

The transponders don't have much of a factor on 9/11. We have terrorists first flight, and appears they had no SIOP for use of transponders.


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Thanks guys!

I, too, wondered what this "paper" is all about, as I couldn't discern an interesting purpose or hypothesis from the abstract.
Good to see that Monaghan delivers according to expectation.
I agree, I can't figure out what the purpose was.

Maybe Monaghan paranoid mind was trying to say the transponders were jammed for some reason, as he includes transponders dropping off in France... I was thinking about checking the France stuff, but since 19 terrorists did 9/11 and there was no standardization in transponder use after hijackers took over, it does not mean much more that some facts about what was discovered.

Maybe a 9/11 truth follower can explain, or add their 24 bits worth, to a possible paranoid plot implied by the transponder paper.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232

Last edited by beachnut; 16th May 2017 at 10:39 PM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2017, 12:16 PM   #8
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,033
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Maybe Monaghan paranoid mind was trying to say the transponders were jammed for some reason
Well, jamming transponders isn't really possible unless the jammer is on the aircraft carrying the transponder being jammed. While the transponder transmission is omni-directional, the receiver is directional; the SSR antenna is mounted on top of the Primary Radar antenna and rotates with it.



For a jammer to work, it would have to constantly move to remain somewhere near line of sight between the aircraft and the antenna. Four airliners would require four continually moving jamming transmitters. This is not practical in any real sense.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2017, 01:56 PM   #9
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 14,952
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, jamming transponders isn't really possible unless the jammer is on the aircraft carrying the transponder being jammed. While the transponder transmission is omni-directional, the receiver is directional; the SSR antenna is mounted on top of the Primary Radar antenna and rotates with it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1wbpaad03q...R-SSR.jpg?dl=1

For a jammer to work, it would have to constantly move to remain somewhere near line of sight between the aircraft and the antenna. Four airliners would require four continually moving jamming transmitters. This is not practical in any real sense.
Yaay, learned something new. Thanks, smartcooky.
__________________
"Realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have." (Eckhart Tolle, 2004)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2017, 03:24 AM   #10
cjnewson88
Graduate Poster
 
cjnewson88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,676
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
AA77 was a special case in that the transponder was turned off in an area which did not have primary radar coverage, therefore it was not tracked contemporaneously for that reason.
Well, it did but that's a different story..
__________________
Common sense has clearly been snuck up on from behind beaten several times on the head and left to bleed.
Over 140 pieces of evidence showing American 77 hit the Pentagon http://therightbloggerbastard.blogspot.co.nz/
http://www.youtube.com/user/cjnewson88
cjnewson88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2017, 06:09 AM   #11
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,492
Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
Well, it did but that's a different story..
Yes, I know. I gave the simple explanation. It's a bit complicated to go thru the technical details of the actual issues involved.
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:12 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.