Find me petitions, please!

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Oystein

...
Some recognizable names (well, Jon recognizes them, I recognize only some) among the signatures are:

...
Chris Sarns
...

Hehe: No longer. Jon deleted Chris Sarns. Chris had beefed up his signature with a comment that WTC7 is the smoking gun.
Seems like Jon Gold disagrees

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

I love the smell of truther FAIL in the evening. Smells like thermite.

More like two day old, in a warm spot, fish sauteed lightly in thermite.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

I love the smell of truther FAIL in the evening. Smells like thermite.

More like two day old, in a warm spot, fish sauteed lightly in thermite.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Oystein

...
Michiel has this irrational hope that this would "go viral":

Haha! I documented another petition in my blog that one particular truther hoped would go viral: http://oystein-debate.blogspot.de/20...bout-wtc7.html
...

O noes - Jon Gold dives into that delusion head-on now with a new post at 911Blogger:
http://www.911blogger.com/news/2012-08-09/great-start

Originally Posted by Jon Gold

I am hoping this statement goes viral. I am hoping that millions sign it. Can you imagine how powerful a statement that would be? I am hoping that people still care enough to do so.

He'll be in for a HUGE disappointment. Already yesterday, the steam was going out of this thing - 21 signatures in a day is the worst he had in the first five full days this petition was out, and it's a no-brainer to predict that this will have fizzled out to the usual <2/day by the end of the month. He wants 1,000,000, but 'll never make 1,000. The gap between his imagination and reality will be astounding. To illustrate: This box has 100x100 = 10,000 pixels. Let each pixel represent 100 signatures. The 10 red pixels then represent the 1,000 signatures that Jon will never reach, the 9,990 gray pixels represent what's missing to get to his imagined million.




ETA: He posted the same text on Cindy Sheehan's blog:
http://cindysheehanssoapbox.blogspot...eat-start.html

I just wrote a comment, which is awaiting moderation. It shall be interesting to see if it gets approved:

Jon,

in recent months (since march) I have monitored four other petitions for 9/11 Truth issues. Only one exceeded 1,000 signatures, two are stuck under 200 after several months, and one (ae911t's "President Obama, 9/11 families ask you to watch Gage video") is under 700 after seven weeks and slowly growing at just 4 or 5 per day. The others are practically stuck where they are.

The truth of the matter is: These petitions don't go viral. They just don't. You are climbing out on a limb by announcing your hope for "millions" to make the statement "powerful", but what if you stay well below 1,000? Will you then concede that the statement is "powerless"?

Aren't you worried that these petitions actually document how small, irrelevant and uninterested 9/11 Truth is in the reality of 2012?

The one recent petition that got more than 1,000 signatures was started by ae911t's Mark Graham, and promoted at 911Blogger. Poster "kawika" did what you did: Hope this would go viral and reach a million. I documented the huge gap between dream and reality in my blog:
Monitoring Truther Petition about WTC7 at Avaaz

This was my conclusion:
"Those truthers who expect their petitions and news and everything to go viral, grow exponentially, gain momentum, have impact, are seriously out of contact with reality. As with many of the irrelevant petitions at Avaaz and other platforms, such initiatives loose steam only days after they are first announced and spread. It appears that the Truth Movement cannot muster more than a few thousand individuals world-wide to even fill out a form on the internet."

[Orphia Nay]

I see the comment was allowed, and you've had a bit of a discussion.

Originally Posted by Jon Gold

As I wrote in my article entitled "The Facts Speak For Themselves, "we don’t need to come up with a narrative (theory) because our facts speak for themselves." All we have to do is show that the investigations we got into 9/11 were compromised and corrupt, that we were lied to about a great many things about that day, and that there needs to be real accountability and justice. Ya know... real accountability. If you were working at a job, and you screwed up, costing the company millions, you would be held accountable. Not rewarded, and not promoted. If people in our Government were "negligent," then they need to be held accountable for that "negligence."

I don't understand this vindictiveness at all.

Those who dropped the ball leading up to 9/11 surely will suffer for the rest of their lives knowing something they didn't do caused such violence.

Firing them after 9/11 would have placed the US and the world in an even more vulnerable state. These people knew the ropes, and the pitfalls of the intelligence culture. They have demonstrated that they have worked on these pitfalls and have prevented any terror attacks in the US ever since.

Calling for retribution is the mark of a small, petty mind.

It also implies to me that Jon Gold has been a "Truther" for so long, he just wants something to show for it, no matter how petty that is.

[Orphia Nay]

On the topic of other petitions...

Here's one that started on July 27.

Demand the Australian Government End Puppy Factories in Australia

It has 2716 signatures and is just short of its goal of 3000.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

On the topic of other petitions...

Here's one that started on July 27.

Demand the Australian Government End Puppy Factories in Australia

It has 2716 signatures and is just short of its goal of 3000.

It actually has 3849 signatures just short of its goal of 4,000.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

I don't understand this vindictiveness at all.

Those who dropped the ball leading up to 9/11 surely will suffer for the rest of their lives knowing something they didn't do caused such violence.

Firing them after 9/11 would have placed the US and the world in an even more vulnerable state. These people knew the ropes, and the pitfalls of the intelligence culture. They have demonstrated that they have worked on these pitfalls and have prevented any terror attacks in the US ever since.

Calling for retribution is the mark of a small, petty mind.

It also implies to me that Jon Gold has been a "Truther" for so long, he just wants something to show for it, no matter how petty that is.

I do understand the vindictiveness. What I don't understand is what he wants in actionable terms. He's too vague about what actual change he wants, and what "accountability" means specifically. What a "new ivestigation" is supposed to investigate, who will bear the cost and who will benefit in what way. Jon admits he doesn't know what the truth is that he is seeking. This really means that he doesn't even know IF there is anything of great interest yet to be discovered. He is chasing mirages.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

...
It has 2716 signatures and is just short of its goal of 3000.

These petition websites choose and adjust these "goals" automatically - these are not real goals. Once 3000 is reached, the system will automatically change the goal to some next-highest "round" number.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

On the topic of other petitions...

Here's one that started on July 27.

Demand the Australian Government End Puppy Factories in Australia

It has 2716 signatures and is just short of its goal of 3000.

Originally Posted by Oystein

These petition websites choose and adjust these "goals" automatically - these are not real goals. Once 3000 is reached, the system will automatically change the goal to some next-highest "round" number.

It now has 10,973 signatures and a goal of 11,000.

I just did a search for
"demand-the-australian-government-ban-puppy-farms-in-australia" (quotes included).

Came up with 22 sites that link to that one. It does not include this forum so I probably missed a few. Now do a search for some of the 9/11 petitions. I predict you will not find so many links. More evidence that 9/11 truth is not very popular.

[ozeco41]

Originally Posted by Oystein

These petition websites choose and adjust these "goals" automatically - these are not real goals...

That makes it look like they are run by truthers.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Jon Gold, activist for some of the victims' family members, has started yet another petition:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/s...or-911-justice

Started on august 4th with 20 signatures
Continued in the days that followed with 79, 64, 66 and 36, so the usual downward trend already there. They are currently at 271
...

Currently 479. By day:
Aug 09: 21
Aug 10: 32
Aug 11: 44
Aug 12: 39
Aug 13: 18
Aug 14: 26
Aug 15: 10
Aug 16: 21

Jon got 318 signatures in the first week, 161 in the second (so far, with day 7 just begun), so sorry, Jon, this didn't go viral just yet! At the pace of the past 6 days, it would take 20 more days (till sep 05) to get to 1000.

I predict that Jon will get fewer and fewer signatures per day, and not reach 1000 before october 1st, if ever. Contrast that with his own imagination that it could go into the "millions" (plural!).

[Orphia Nay]

The puppy factory petition now has over 17,000 signatures.

Jon Gold's has 516.

[shure]

Debra Burlingame - "I am asking all my Facebook friends to go the this website and sign the petition to pass the JASTA bill, which would allow 9/11 victims to sue the government of Saudi Arabia for its role in the 9/11 attacks. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (where 15 of the 19 hijackers were from) funded and facilitated the attacks, even deploying Omar Bayoumi--a Saudi agent in San Diego--to assist two of the hijackers on my brother's plane. Please sign the petition and post this link on your FB page. Thank you."

http://www.justiceagainstterrorism.org/

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by shure

Debra Burlingame - "I am asking all my Facebook friends to go the this website and sign the petition to pass the JASTA bill, which would allow 9/11 victims to sue the government of Saudi Arabia for its role in the 9/11 attacks. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (where 15 of the 19 hijackers were from) funded and facilitated the attacks, even deploying Omar Bayoumi--a Saudi agent in San Diego--to assist two of the hijackers on my brother's plane. Please sign the petition and post this link on your FB page. Thank you."

http://www.justiceagainstterrorism.org/

Thanks

When was this started? Last december, or thereabouts? Petition had 1627 signatures when I first looked at it. Couldn't find a list of names, unfortunately.

In the meantime, it has grown to by 2 to 1629 - after two gentleman, Mr. Santa Clause and Rudolph Reindeer signed. You see, you can increase the counter by just entering a first name, last name, ZIP code. No address, no phone, not even an email address.

I can't take this very serious. With just the name, there is no way to confirm the validity of the signatures. With no publicly accessible list of names, anyone can pimp the number at their heart's desire and then go on and make up a list with names.

[Ivan Kminek]

Oystein: Since I'm still a bit bored, I have just noticed this SnowCrash post in the truthaction thread dealing with a new truther's petition:

"Tell that dateless nerd Oystein he should start a debunker petition of his own and see how far he gets with it."

Perhaps quite interesting idea (but I'm not sure if really new one).
Just hypothetically, what would be a content of such our "debunker" petition? Any proposals?
And how quickly we would gather let say thousands of signatures?

[Orphia Nay]

Debunkers don't need to start a petition. The failure of all the twoof petitions is proof enough.

Besides, who would we be petitioning? We'd need to be calling on someone to do something.

We're quite happy laughing at all the truthers who accomplish nothing.

[ozeco41]

Originally Posted by Oystein

...In the meantime, it has grown to by 2 to 1629 - after two gentleman, Mr. Santa Clause and Rudolph Reindeer signed. You see, you can increase the counter by just entering a first name, last name, ZIP code. No address, no phone, not even an email address.

I can't take this very serious. With just the name, there is no way to confirm the validity of the signatures. With no publicly accessible list of names, anyone can pimp the number at their heart's desire and then go on and make up a list with names.

Including persons who cannot spell their own name?

[Oystein]

Ivan, that wouldn't work. Just like the Twoof Movement is tiny and irrelevant, so is the "debunker movement". They are a handful of people, we are a handful of people.
However, theirs is a cause supposedly of dramatic impact and life-changing importance, ours is a cause of mere curiosity and scientific interest. SnowCrash is perhaps correct to call me a nerd - debunking da Twoof is a nerdy hobby, not a political movement. See the asymmetry?

So what would be the content of such a petition? Call on the government to do nothing because everything is fine already?

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by ozeco41

Including persons who cannot spell their own name?

I think that's par for da Twoof

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek

Just hypothetically, what would be a content of such our "debunker" petition? Any proposals?

We, the undersigned, admit that reality is what it is.

Dave Rogers.

[Ivan Kminek]

Oystein, Orphia: Believe me, I really have not considered any kind of serious petition which could be send to some US officials, senators or so

I meant it just as a kind of additional "fun" we could have here, facing to so called "truthers", and perhaps as an attempt to concisely formulate our attitudes and findings.

[Oystein]

OK, Ivan, can you propose a statement of facts on 9/11 that we could all agree on and sign? Forget about the wording for now, just throw out some bullets with what and what not to include!

ETA: Perhaps a new thread?

[ozeco41]

There has to be some goal to achieve based on the recipients of the petition taking some action.

So what action do you/we want? And who do we want to take that action?

And how do we deal with non US citizens involvement - what is the basis of legitimacy for them?

[Orphia Nay]

Snowcrash is talking crap again. Debunkers/Sane People don't need to petition anyone. Snowcrash should be suggesting we start a poll.

Notwithstanding the lack of "Is water wet?" or "Is gravity gravity?" websites to publish such a poll on, or the fact that online polls can be spammed, here's a suggestion for a giggle:


Is believing that America purposely killed 2,976 of their own residents in the 9/11 attacks stupid?

[ ] Yes

There should be no "no" answer, because that would encourage truthers to spam the poll.

[Oystein]

Oz, we could demand "Truth" and "Honesty" from "America". That would be on par with Jon Gold's petition, which he calls a "statement"

[Oystein]

For fun, and to escape the heat of siesta time, I looked at the petition at change.org President Obama: 9/11 Families Ask You to Watch “9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out” that is currently (since Jun 19, 64 days) run by AE911Truth.

It has currently 739 supporters in 2 months (11.5 / day)

At the bottom right of that petition page they show the most recent 9 signers of the petition. You can click on the names to see their activities at change.org. I did that with the 9 most recent names, looked at the most recent other petition they signed, and how well these other petitions have done. Here are the results:

(* OS) Ric Watkins (Phoenix, AZ): Help my autistic son get a life-saving heart transplant - 259,428 supporters, 253,428 of these since Aug 08 (>16,000 / day)

lesley St Nicholas (Pt. Roberts, WA): Stand with Barack Obama and Joe Biden against the Go Back Team - 25,971 supporters, almost all of these today (>25,000 / day)

Noel Barbash (Denver, CO): CEO of AT&T: Urge the Boy Scouts to Drop Ban on Gay Leaders and Troops - 80,807 supporters, and Victory, within about 4 weeks (>2,800 / day)

Khandaker Islam (Ingleburn, Australia): United Nations: TIPAIMUKH DAM MUST BE STOPPED - 52,138 supporters within about half a year (>250 / day)

Lynnette Alexander (Eugene, OR): [none]

Fran Burke (Cordes Lakes, AZ): Urge the Obama Administration: Stop Mountaintop Removal Mining - 28,882 supporters within about a month (>900 / day)

(* OS) George Ripley (Washington, DC): Safe passage for Julian Assange - Salvoconducto para Julian Assange - 1,025 supporters within 3 days (>300 / day)

Donald Heffern (Mission Viejo, CA): Stand with StudentsFirst and Support Comprehensive Anti-Bullying Legislation - 652,437 supporters since last November or October (>2000 / day) and 152,437 supporters in the last 3 weeks (>7000 / day)

(* OS) Amy Harlib (New York, NY): Selma City Council: No More Monuments to KKK Hate! - 61,225 supporters in 1 week (>8,000 / day)


It seems like the vast majority of causes supported by those who support Gage are more popular, or more successful in gathering votes than Gage by factors of 20 to >1,000


It's not that such petition platforms don't work - the do work. It is totally obvious that 9/11 Twoof simply is not an issue supported by more than a small fringe.



(ETA: Those denoted with a (* OS) have also signed the AE911Truth petition as "Other Supporters")

[Orphia Nay]

Not a petition, but a fundraiser I thought you might find interesting:

The online comic "The Oatmeal" has raised over $1,000,000 in 9 days.

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/tesla_museum_1m

They're buying Tesla's old laboratory and building a Tesla Museum.

[Oystein]

Amazing, Orphia!

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Amazing, Orphia!

Indeed!

I started a thread about it in the Science sub-forum.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=242551

They've now raised $1,126,609 so far, and 34 days to go.

[Oystein]

Jon Gold's petition has been translated to French and been promoted on French language CT sites:
http://www.reopen911.info/11-septemb...our-la-verite/

This gave him an influx of several dozend new signatures from people with French names, and three to four times as many signatures as he had before that event.

The page linked above also has links to more 9/11 petitions:
http://firefightersfor911truth.org/?page_id=469
Do you remember WTC 7 ? (By Chris Sarns) - 223 signatures since Feb 10, 2012
(and some others that have disappeared, or are not 9/11-related)

[Orphia Nay]

I see Niels Harrit is pimped as a signatory of Jon Gold's petition on the French site.

CD much, Jon?

[Orphia Nay]

Here's a funny petition.

http://www.change.org/petitions/dece...-for-the-truth

Quote:

This petition for the TRUTH is meant to serve as a plea to our world government leaders for answers, acknowledgment or denial that they know or are aware that a life changing event is going to occur on or before the highly anticipated date of December 21 2012.

This plea is based on the seemingly endless number of prophecies, predictions and theories surrounding what many believe could be the end of the world as we know it.

Millions of people around the world strongly believe in the realities of coming disaster, while others simply ponder the possibilities.

The people of our planet are frightened and are looking for true and honest answers from our trusted leaders.

It’s time for the leaders of our free nations to step up and tell us what they know or don’t know about the coming events of December 21 2012.

It has 2,993 signatures. Can't see a date of inception, but the video that goes with it was uploaded on Feb 20, 2012.

I see some parallels with the truth movement and the 2012 apocalypsers.

[Oystein]

Orphia,

yes, Niels is on it, Justin Keogh (former ae911t board member), too. A few dozend of the comments also suggest that these signers believe in CD, but such comments are a minority, which Jon is happy to include.
By the way, Jon's petition enjoyed only 3 days of breaking the downward trend from someone having the text promoted in French, but yesterday it was back to only the usual handful of signatures. I predicted earlier in the thread that there'd be only around 2 signatures per day by the end of the month - he beat me ti that. I also predicted he wouldn't get to 1,000 before october 1st, if ever. With the ca. 100 extra signatures from the French initiative, he might beat that by a couple of weeks - we'll see.

The end-of-the-world petition is indeed funny ^^ (and far more successful than any of the twoofer petiotions will be until the world ends in december ^^)

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Another one:

http://www.petition2congress.com/647...l-review/view/

Quote:

9/11 Congressional Review
93 People Have Sent 284 Letters and Emails

This was started on March 29 2012 - about 45 days ago.
2 supporters per day ain't stellar ^^

Anyway, this is now advertised on 911Blogger.

I just came across this at 911JusticeCanada.

It now shows

"158 People Have Sent 440 Letters and Emails".

[Oystein]

I am 5 days late with this, but still, here comes the

End of August update

I am now monitoring six Twoofer petitions that have been started since February.

And here is how they fared in August:

Petition	Created by	Started	Total sig 07/31	new sig August	Total sig 08/31
Do you remember WTC 7 ?	Chris Sarns	Feb	179	+44	223
9/11 Congressional Review	?	Mar	153	+5	158
Properly Investigate the Crimes of 9/11	James Hufferd	Apr	187	+2	189
Revise the US gov final report on Building 7	Mark Graham	May	1524	+44	1568
Obama: Watch “Experts Speak Out”	AE911Truth	Jun	638	+158	796
Statement For 9/11 Justice	Jon Gold	Aug	0	+752	752

So we see the newer a petition is, the more signatures it got last month (Sarns got a boost when his was co-promoted on a French twoofer website along with Gold's). The following diagram shows how signatures/day developed on each petition month by month:



This has 26 data points. Of these, only six are above 10 signatures/day, five of those representing the first calendar month a petition was online (which was only between 2 and 11 days for three of these). 16 data points are under 1.5 signatures per day.


I am quite happy to see that Jon Gold, whom I consider to be the most reasonable guys among those who set up petitions (he is not a CD nut and goes after the political rather then the technical aspects) has in the meantime surpassed the AE911Truth petition (Jon is at 957 right now, after 33 days, while Gage is left behind at 838, after 79 days). Of course, Jon has written on blogs that he hopes to get this into "the millions". I predicted earlier that he wouldn't reach 1000 before october, and it looks like I was wrong. He got two boosts after the initial pace died down:



The first of the recent peaks, centered around Aug 27th, came when his petition was translated and posted on a French twoofer board (there were more than 60 signatures with French names or comments). I haven't found a cause for the second peak, around Sep 2nd/3rd, yet.

Jon's almost 1000 signatures is relatively impressive (compared to the others) since his chosen platform, ipetitions.com, seems to be relatively obscure. I have seen hardly any petition there that scores more than 1000, while three of the other four platforms (avaaz.org, signon.org, change.org) routinely have even regional and local issues easily run into the tens and hundreds of thousands of signatures.



We are now five days away from the 11th anniversary. Perhaps that helps some petitions to gain exposure and a few more clicks. Eventually, of course, none will have achieved anything better than to document that the Twoof Movement in 2012 is down to a tiny fringe of a few thousand followers worldwide.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Oystein

...
We are now five days away from the 11th anniversary. Perhaps that helps some petitions to gain exposure and a few more clicks. Eventually, of course, none will have achieved anything better than to document that the Twoof Movement in 2012 is down to a tiny fringe of a few thousand followers worldwide.

And how I was right!

I am still monitoring 6 online-petitions opened by truthers during 2012. Three of these are practically dead, these gained only 2 signatures each during the entire month of september, and they all have no more than 225 signatures total after more than 5 to 7 months:
Do you remember WTC 7? (Chris Sarns): 225 signatures since February
9/11 Congressional Review: 160 since March
Properly Investigate the Crimes of 9/11 (James Hufferd): 191 since April


Three other petitions, started between May and August, have now each gathered between 1151 and 1639 signatures.
More than 1000 may seem respectable, even impressive, but should always be gauged against other petitions on the same platform, many of which easily reach tens and hundreds of thousands; and more importantly against the hopes and expectations of truthers - Jon Gold actually hoped to get "millions" of people to sign his!

Revise the U.S. government final report on the collapse of Building 7 (Mark Graham): 1639 signatures since May, 71 new in September
President Obama: ... Watch “9/11: Explosive Evidence” (Richard Gage): 1258 since June, 462 new in september
Statement For 9/11 Justice (Jon Gold): 1151 since August, 399 in September

Here is how they developed during september - remember, I predicted there would be more signatures around the 11th anniversary of 9/11, and indeed all three petitions peaked at and around that date:




All six petitions since they were started show a commom pattern of starting strong and dropping sharply, then fading out:



There is the notable exception of Gage's petition, which is prominently featured on the top right of the AE911Truth homepage, which managed to get more signatures in September than the previous month. Almost all of that increase was due to the anniversary-peak, which most likely was helped by ae911truth.org getting many times as many page hits around that date than usual:



So this is currently the best promoted petition, but its success is by no means viral, it is correlated to page hits.

For october, I predict the two leading petitions (Gage and Gold) to have daily clicks drop sharply, below the August level. All others are already near a flatline.

[Oystein]

I found yet another new petition:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...-zero/jSsWs2Nc

Quote:

we petition the obama administration to:
Conduct a new investigation of 9/11/01 that takes into account the presence of Active Thermitic Material at Ground Zero.

A team of scientists, led by Danish chemist Niels Harrit, conducted research that indicates the presence of Active Thermitic Material in all dust samples taken from the 9/11/01 World Trade Center catastrophe.

Here is the science: http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...002/7TOCPJ.pdf

In the version of events presented by the 9/11 Commission Report, there is no mention of this finding. Nor is there any mention of the fact that WTC 7, a forty-seven story, steel-framed structure collapsed, at free-fall acceleration, at 5:20 pm on the day of the attack.

The "War on Terror" will never end until the fundamental lie of 9/11 is exposed. There can be no peace here or abroad until the actual criminals of 9/11 have been tried in a court of law.

We demand truth, justice, and peace.
Created: Nov 14, 2012

Five days old, has 5 signatures right now, needs 25,000 by December 14




(As for the other six petitons: I am still tracking, but you haven't missed a thing, all are pretty quiet.)

[Ivan Kminek]

Oystein:

(From the petition: "Here is the science: http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...002/7TOCPJ.pdf")

Hehe

[Oystein]

Hehe yeah. If there were an index for scientific papers that tracked a ratio between the numbers of times they are cited by science peers vs. non-scientists/outside their field, this paper would definitely be in the bottom-10, or tied in last place at a ratio of 0.000