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Old 18th August 2012, 01:08 PM   #81
paloalto
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
When did the FBI know the 2 guys were in the states? When? Date? Are you as good as CBS? Was it before 911?
The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. At this time the FBI HQ knew that these al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill many Americans. This information was know by FBI IOS HQ Agent Dina Corsi, FBI ITOS Deputy Chief Tom Wilshire and FBI IOS Agent Margaret Gillespie. Just after meeting with Gillespie, Wilshire and Corsi, about this information, this information went to the rest of the CIA, to the FBI, unknown where it went inside of the FBI, and to the State Department.

This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators by these agents and the CIA, as was the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing, in January 2000, actually planning the bombing of the USS Cole.
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Old 18th August 2012, 01:09 PM   #82
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Reading between the lines of all the reported facts it looks like high level US officials told US intelligence to back off Saudi links to al Qaeda. After the attacks the very same high level officials pretended that they had no idea that such conduct would lead to something bad and besides (they told the public) al Qaeda was an enemy of the Saudi government so of course there were no intentional associations between al Qaeda and the Saudi government.

This explanation best fits all the facts. Translated into a talking point fit for public consumption this explanation became known as bureaucratic inefficiency.

To date none of the US intelligence officials involved in the al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar withholding have seen fit to explain their conduct to the public. We haven't heard a word from Rich Blee or Rod Middleton who ran Bin Laden units at the CIA and FBI.

Here is an email address for Dina Corsi: dmc59@georgetown.edu. I would love her to explain what happened at the UBLU in the lead up to 9/11. I realized the chances of her responding to an email from a stranger are zero. I have contacted US media to try to understand why they have not used their clout to get interviews with people like Blee, Middleton and Corsi. They don't feel any need to respond to a member of the public.
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Old 18th August 2012, 01:17 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. ...
2001, not 2002? oops, you said...


Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
...
This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI ...

Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. ...
Secret? Why were they put on the FBI terror watch-list on the 24th, 18 days before 911? You said it was secret they were terrorists, or what?


Please explain why your algorithm for KNOWING the future does not prevent accidents. I KNOW there is going to be a fatal accident today, why does your algorithm fail to stop it from happening? I KNOW, why can't I stop it from happening? Now we have arrest everyone who KNEW there was going to be fatal accidents today. ?
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Old 18th August 2012, 01:24 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
2001, not 2002? oops, you said...







Secret? Why were they put on the FBI terror watch-list on the 24th, 18 days before 911? You said it was secret they were terrorists, or what?

The Story that is called Straight.
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Old 18th August 2012, 02:46 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
2001, not 2002? oops, you said...

Secret? Why were they put on the FBI terror watch-list on the 24th, 18 days before 911? You said it was secret they were terrorists, or what?
?
No I have it exactly right, the date was August 22, 2001.

They were put on the State Department Tipoff watchlist on August 24, 2001 because of Margaret Gillespie’s alert sent to the State Department, an alert that went through out the CIA on August 22, 2001. Unfortunately the Tipoff watch list is not used to check for passengers getting on a US commercial airliner.

I said:

"This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators by these (ITOS FBI HQ) agents and the CIA, as was the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing, in January 2000, actually planning the bombing of the USS Cole."

The FBI Cole bombing investigators were not given this information until after the attacks on 9/11. Had they been given this information, they never would have allowed FBI HQ ITOS Agent Dina Corsi to shut down their criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi on August 28, 2001. This was exactly the information they needed in order to start a criminal investigation for these al Qaeda terrorists. It is also clear that is exactly why this information had been hidden from them by both the CIA and FBI HQ.

Last edited by paloalto; 18th August 2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 18th August 2012, 10:24 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by thatsmystory View Post
Reading between the lines of all the reported facts it looks like high level US officials told US intelligence to back off Saudi links to al Qaeda.
Very specific fantasy presented as fact.

Quote:
After the attacks the very same high level officials pretended that they had no idea that such conduct would lead to something bad
Which you know, how?

Quote:
besides (they told the public)
Who is "they?"

Quote:
al Qaeda was an enemy of the Saudi government so of course there were no intentional associations between al Qaeda and the Saudi government.
Given that al Qaeda is an enemy of the Saudi government and actively seeks to overthrow it, your point?

Quote:
This explanation best fits all the facts. Translated into a talking point fit for public consumption this explanation became known as bureaucratic inefficiency.
No, this fantasy best conforms to your pre-arrived POV. You might want to look up some of your more common logical fallacies, "Black Swan Theory" for one.
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Old 18th August 2012, 10:50 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
Again a rather inconvenient truth.

The CIA and FBI HQ knew about Mihdhar and Hazmi for 21 months prior to the attacks on 9/11, and then even knew a huge al Qaeda attack was about to take place inside of the US and then found out when Mihdhar and Hazmi were discovered inside of the US that they were here in order to take part in this massive al Qaeda attack that would cause mass casualties. Then these two agencies shut down the FBI criminal investigation of FBI Agent Steve Bongardt of Mihdhar and Hazmi and even blocked the FBI criminal investigation by Harry Samit of Zacarias Moussaoui.

What has any of this got to do with hind sight?

If you know huge al Qaeda attack is just about to take place inside of the US and then know that two al Qaeda terrorists, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al Hazmi, are inside of the US in order to take part in this huge al Qaeda attack, and then you deliberately shut down the one FBI criminal in investigation that could have found these terrorists before they carried out this attack, how is that hind sight?

It seems to me that you have stretched the definition of hind sight all out of proportion.

Even the FBI agents who wanted to search and find Mihdhar and Hazmi before they had time to carried out this huge attack told the FBI HQ agents who were shutting down their criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, that these two al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US in order to carry out a al Qaeda terrorist attack, and that people will die if their investigation was shut down.

Again, how is that hind sight?

Clinton was to busy with a dress and a cigar to care?
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Old 18th August 2012, 11:05 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by beachnut
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. ...
2001, not 2002? oops, you said...


Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
...
This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI ...

Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The FBI HQ found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US on August 22, 2001. ...
Secret? Why were they put on the FBI terror watch-list on the 24th, 18 days before 911? You said it was secret they were terrorists, or what?

...

Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
No I have it exactly right, the date was August 22, 2001.

They were put on the State Department Tipoff watchlist on August 24, 2001 because of Margaret Gillespie’s alert sent to the State Department, an alert that went through out the CIA on August 22, 2001. Unfortunately the Tipoff watch list is not used to check for passengers getting on a US commercial airliner.

I said:

"This information was deliberately kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators by these (ITOS FBI HQ) agents and the CIA, as was the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing, in January 2000, actually planning the bombing of the USS Cole."

The FBI Cole bombing investigators were not given this information until after the attacks on 9/11. Had they been given this information, they never would have allowed FBI HQ ITOS Agent Dina Corsi to shut down their criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi on August 28, 2001. This was exactly the information they needed in order to start a criminal investigation for these al Qaeda terrorists. It is also clear that is exactly why this information had been hidden from them by both the CIA and FBI HQ.
The FBI don't have access to the terror watchlist?
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Old 19th August 2012, 10:03 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
The FBI don't have access to the terror watchlist?
There are a number of watch lists maintained by the US government. The State Department Tipoff list was intended to alert INS when certain people entered the US. But Mihdhar and Hazmi were already in the US, so it made no sense to add them to this list. These names should have been put on a no fly list for people making airline reservations.

I don't think the FBI agents on the Cole bombing were looking at the Tipoff list every day or at all. This list was for INS. If the CIA and FBI HQ had the names of two al Qaeda terrorists and knew that these al Qaeda terrorists had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing at the January 2000 al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur, why did they just not turn this information over immediately to the FBI Cole bombing investigators so these FBI investigators could immediately start a FBI criminal investigation to find these terrorists before they had time to carry out another al Qaeda terrorists attack, this time inside of the US?

This makes no sense.

And what makes even less sense is why did the FBI HQ, with the full knowledge of the CIA, shut down the FBI criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi when both agencies knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US only in order to take part in a al Qaeda terrorist attack?

This makes even less sense.

If two al Qaeda terrorists are inside of the US, and the CIA and FBI HQ know these al Qaeda terrorists are going to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that will kill many Americans, and then the CIA and FBI HQ shut down the one criminal investigation that could have found these terrorists before they carried out this attack, then it seems reasonable to assume that these agencies knew their actions would result in allowing the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out an attack inside of the US that would kill many Americans.

This is what this set of facts clearly show.

I cannot make this any clearer.

Last edited by paloalto; 19th August 2012 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 19th August 2012, 10:25 AM   #90
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Hi Paloalto,
Had the terrorists been arrested, what charges would have been made against them and what evidence would have been produced ?

A short answer please and please don't repeat what you have already posted.
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Old 19th August 2012, 10:32 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
Soufan had asked the CIA for any information on a al Qaeda planning meeting in southeast Asia or Kuala Lumpur and on Walid bin Attash at least three times and was told that the CIA had no information on any of this. But it turns out that they had copious information on bin Attash and this meeting and the fact that bin Attash had been at this meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi actually planning the Cole bombing.

Was this bureaucratic FUBAR or the crime of withholding material information from an ongoing criminal FBI investigation.

Tom Wilshire was denied permission twice in July 2001 by his CIA managers Blee, Black and Tenet, from giving the CIA information obtained from the surveillance of the Kuala Lumpur meeting, to the FBI Cole bombing investigators, information that bin Attash had been at the Kuala Lumpur meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi actually planning the Cole bombing, even though he worked at the FBI HQ as a high level FBI manager in charge of all FBI investigations of al Qaeda terrorists in the world.

Was this bureaucratic FUBAR or the crime of withholding material information from an ongoing criminal FBI investigation.

Both Corsi and Middleton also knew that bin Attash had been at this Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi actually planning the Cole bombing. Yet not only did they with hold this information from FBI Agent Steve Bongardt, but they shut his investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi down when these FBI HQ agents and managers knew a huge al Qaeda attack was about to take place inside of the US and knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were in the US in order to take part in this attack.

Was this bureaucratic FUBAR or the crime of withholding material information from an ongoing criminal FBI investigation.

When you look at the facts and what people knew, and what they did with this information, with all due respect, your argument that this was bureaucratic FUBAR just does not add up.
I never said bureaucratic FUBAR couldn't be criminal.I was questioning the motives behind it. That's the conspiracy we're talking about. I think a lot of people should have been put in prison. It was ridiculous what went on. BUT THE MOTIVE WAS NOT TO ALLOW AQ TO KILL 3000. They had no clue. You connected those dots. It's a shame they didn't. Your hindsight is perfect but your interpretation of it sucks.
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Old 19th August 2012, 10:54 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
Hi Paloalto,
Had the terrorists been arrested, what charges would have been made against them and what evidence would have been produced ?

A short answer please and please don't repeat what you have already posted.
Good question.

The pilots could have been charged with being part of a al Qaeda criminal conspiracy to carry out terrorists attacks inside of the US. The German government had evidence that they had been recruited by al Qaeda in Germany, by Mohammed Zammer, a al Qaeda recruiter. The fact they all had training on large commercial airliner simulators, several on B767/757 simulators would have been additional evidence they were connected to a plot to hijack the airliners they were on.

The non-pilot terrorists could have been charged with the same thing but the US government had very little evidence against the non-pilot terrorists other than they were on the same flights as the al Qaeda terrorist pilots and many were connected to the al Qaeda paymaster in the UAE, who was connected by phone calls to Ramzi bin al-Shibh in Hamburg Germany. But there may be much more evidence I am unaware of that may not be in the public domain.

Once FBI Agent Harry Samit had information that bin Al-Shibh sent money to Zacarias Moussaoui, he was able to tie “most” of the terrorists in this plot to the al Qaeda paymaster in the UAE. He was not allowed by the FBI to obtain this receipt until after the attacks on 9/11 had taken place.
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Old 19th August 2012, 11:19 AM   #93
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I don't think your producing enough evidence to put people in prison for any length of time.

The simplicity of their crime was their success. No crime with evidence was committed until they had boarded the planes and taken off, by this time it was to late for anything to be done.
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Old 19th August 2012, 12:40 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
There are a number of watch lists maintained by the US government. The State Department Tipoff list was intended to alert INS when certain people entered the US. But Mihdhar and Hazmi were already in the US, so it made no sense to add them to this list. These names should have been put on a no fly list for people making airline reservations.

Ummmm, excuse me...

What "No Fly List" before 9/11/01?

Last edited by tfk; 19th August 2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 19th August 2012, 12:53 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Justin39640 View Post
I never said bureaucratic FUBAR couldn't be criminal. I was questioning the motives behind it. That's the conspiracy we're talking about. I think a lot of people should have been put in prison. It was ridiculous what went on. BUT THE MOTIVE WAS NOT TO ALLOW AQ TO KILL 3000. They had no clue. You connected those dots. It's a shame they didn't. Your hindsight is perfect but your interpretation of it sucks.
Let me repeat:

Tom Wilshire was denied permission twice in July 2001, on July 13, 2001, and on July 23, 2001, by his CIA managers Blee, Black and Tenet, from giving the CIA information obtained from the surveillance of the Kuala Lumpur meeting, to the FBI Cole bombing investigators, information that bin Attash had been at the Kuala Lumpur meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi and Attash, mastermind of the USS Cole bombing, actually planning the Cole bombing, even though Wilshire worked at the FBI HQ as a high level FBI manager in charge of all FBI investigations of al Qaeda terrorists in the world.

The is after Blee, Black and Tenet have already gone to the White House on July 10, 2001, to a meeting deliberately kept secret by the 9/11 Commission, to tell Rice, Clarke, and Hadley that a massive al Qaeda attack was about to take place, likely to the US, that would cause mass US casualties.

The CIA and FBI HQ knew about this huge al Qaeda attack. The CIA knew it had refused permission to allow Wilshire to give this information to the FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing, and even knew that this would prevent these investigators, and FBI Agent Steve Bongardt from starting a any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, two al Qaeda terrorists that the CIA and FBI HQ knew will take part in this al Qaeda attack. They knew that this was the very evidence that Bongardt would need in order to be able to start any criminal investigation of these two al Qaeda terrorists. Without some evidence of a substantial Federal crime, Bongardt could not start any criminal investigation for these two. When the information was given to the FBI HQ, Corsi and Wilshire, and the CIA, Blee, Black, and Tenet, on August 22, 2001 that both Mihdhar and Hazmi are inside of the US in order to take part in this attack, these high level managers at both agencies knew these terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in a huge al Qaeda terrorists attack. Yet Corsi and Middleton, who were supervised by Wilshire, shut down Bongardt’s criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.

The CIA and FBI HQ may not have known that 3000 people would be killed in this attack, or even the exact details of this attack, but they did know the names of at least two of the al Qaeda terrorists who be involved, information that could have been used by Bongardt and his team to not only link directly to many of the other al Qaeda terrorist involved in this attack but to prevent these attacks.
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Old 19th August 2012, 12:59 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
I don't think your producing enough evidence to put people in prison for any length of time.

The simplicity of their crime was their success. No crime with evidence was committed until they had boarded the planes and taken off, by this time it was to late for anything to be done.
Mihdhar and Hazmi were already linked to the Cole bombing and the east Africa bombings and were linked to many of the other terrorists on those 9/11 flights. Mihdhar and Hazmi and many of the other terrorists were also all linked to al Qaeda. That should have been enough had this information not been kept secret from the FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing and the east Africa bombings.
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Old 19th August 2012, 01:11 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by tfk View Post
Ummmm, excuse me...

What "No Fly List" before 9/11/01?
The FAA had a no fly list before 9/11. One of the people on that list was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed., the master mind of the 9/11 attacks. But by June 12, 2001, according to the 9/11 Commission Report the CIA knew that KSM was recruiting many al Qaeda terrorists for a terrorist attack inside of the US and knew that these new recruits were being sent to the US in the summer on 2001 in order to link up with then other al Qaeda terrorists already inside of the US to carry out an attack that the CUA already had been warned about.

The CIA also knew that Nawaf al-Hazmi was already in the US on March 5, 2000 and that his travel companion, Khalid al-Mihdhar, had a multi-entry visa for the US in order to join Hazmi in a al Qaeda terrorist attack inside of the US.

So if KSM was already barred from any US flight these other al Qaeda terrorist should also have been barred from any flight. On August 22, 2001 the CIA and FBI knew that both Mihdhar and Hazmi, were in the US in order to take part in this attack. These terrorists should have been put on the FAA no fly list.
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Old 19th August 2012, 01:20 PM   #98
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There was "a FBI no fly list", 16 people were on it on 911. Not an issue, and not support for your ability to know 911 was a crime before it was a crime.

You think people can know who is going to do what in the future. Good one. There was a movie with they arrested murderers before they murdered. Fiction.

Last edited by beachnut; 19th August 2012 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 19th August 2012, 01:38 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
There was "a FBI no fly list", 16 people were on it on 911. Not an issue, and not support for your ability to know 911 was a crime before it was a crime.

You think people can know who is going to do what in the future. Good one. There was a movie with they arrested murderers before they murdered. Fiction.
It was the charter of the CIA to prevent another Pearl Harbor, and the FBI argued many times for an increase in their budget so they would have the funds necessary to prevent a terrorist attack inside of the US.

Both of this agencies were in effect chartered to stop a terrorists attack before it took place, you might say a terrorist attack in the future.

So your logic that "You think people can know who is going to do what in the future" is refuted by the CIA and FBI themselves, this is exactly what they were claiming they were trying to do but failed doing on 9/11.

HELLO!
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Old 19th August 2012, 01:55 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
It was the charter of the CIA to prevent another Pearl Harbor, and the FBI argued many times for an increase in their budget so they would have the funds necessary to prevent a terrorist attack inside of the US. ...
You make up the charter, then add gossip.

Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
... Both of this agencies were in effect chartered to stop a terrorists attack before it took place, you might say a terrorist attack in the future. ...
You believe you can stop things in the future, 100 percent accuracy?

Let see, OH MY GOD, the budget for knives, FBI should have see the BIG expenditure for 19 knives as the RED FLAG for terror attack!

Hijacking? OMG, should have known all hijackings were really practice to use a WMD. Yes, I would say something with the heat energy of 315 TONS of TNT (jet fuel) and the KE of 2,000 pound bomb, is a WMD, waiting for use, the price of First Class ticket.

The USA was the best place to learn to fly, no wonder there were so many RED flags for pilots taking lessons. Wowzer.



Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
... So your logic that "You think people can know who is going to do what in the future" is refuted by the CIA and FBI themselves, this is exactly what they were claiming they were trying to do but failed doing on 9/11.

HELLO!
You are full of nonsense. You never had an accident? You know the future. BTW, you will have an accident, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Sorry, you failed.
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Old 19th August 2012, 02:09 PM   #101
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It's a shame they didn't, have enough time to find them.

Please excuse the copy paste

The FBI contacted Marriott on August 30, requesting that they check guest records, and on September 5, they reported that no Marriott hotels had any record of Mihdhar checking in.[50] The day before the attacks, the New York office requested that the Los Angeles FBI office check all local Sheraton Hotels,[50] as well as Lufthansa and United Airlines bookings, because those were the two airlines Mihdhar had used to enter the country.[51] Neither the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network nor the FBI's Financial Review Group, which have access to credit card and other private financial records, were notified about Mihdhar prior to September 11.[36]
Regarding the CIA's refusal to inform the FBI about Mihdhar and Hazmi, author Lawrence Wright suggests the CIA wanted to protect its turf and was concerned about giving sensitive intelligence to FBI Agent John P. O'Neill, who Alec Station chief Michael Scheuer described as duplicitous. Wright also speculates that the CIA may have been protecting intelligence operations overseas, and might have been eying Mihdhar and Hazmi as recruitment targets to obtain intelligence on al-Qaeda, although the CIA was not authorized to operate in the United States and might have been leaving them for Saudi intelligence to recruit.[16][53]
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Old 19th August 2012, 03:05 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
It's a shame they didn't, have enough time to find them.

Please excuse the copy paste

The FBI contacted Marriott on August 30, requesting that they check guest records, and on September 5, they reported that no Marriott hotels had any record of Mihdhar checking in.[50] The day before the attacks, the New York office requested that the Los Angeles FBI office check all local Sheraton Hotels,[50] as well as Lufthansa and United Airlines bookings, because those were the two airlines Mihdhar had used to enter the country.[51] Neither the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network nor the FBI's Financial Review Group, which have access to credit card and other private financial records, were notified about Mihdhar prior to September 11.[36]
Regarding the CIA's refusal to inform the FBI about Mihdhar and Hazmi, author Lawrence Wright suggests the CIA wanted to protect its turf and was concerned about giving sensitive intelligence to FBI Agent John P. O'Neill, who Alec Station chief Michael Scheuer described as duplicitous. Wright also speculates that the CIA may have been protecting intelligence operations overseas, and might have been eying Mihdhar and Hazmi as recruitment targets to obtain intelligence on al-Qaeda, although the CIA was not authorized to operate in the United States and might have been leaving them for Saudi intelligence to recruit.[16][53]
The FBI UBLU unit knew and intentionally made up excuses to keep the Cole investigators out of the loop. Evidently the public is asking too much to expect anyone from this unit to come forward and explain who told them to obstruct an active al Qaeda investigation.

The question that has never been answered by anyone at Alec Station or the UBLU is why the al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar criminal investigation was obstructed. Why is there a need for so much secrecy about this conduct?

In regard to the no fly list before 9/11:

Claudio Manno headed the FAA Intelligence Division in the lead up to 9/11. Here is his testimony during the Joint Inquiry Commission:

Quote:
Senator WYDEN. With respect to al Mihdhar and al-Hazmi, did your agency have the names of those two hijackers prior to September 11, 2001?

Mr. MANNO. No, we did not.

Senator WYDEN. If you had, what steps would have been taken, had you had that information?

Mr. MANNO. Well, prior to 9/11, we had a process, we had a socalled watch list which was disseminated to the industry via the security directive process. In fact, a number of the people that we suspected were involved in what we call the Manila plot, the Bojinko plot, as you referred to it, were on that list. Again, what we would—the purpose of that process was to highlight for the air carriers particular individuals, individuals that had ties to terrorist groups and that presented a threat to aviation who should either be denied boarding or should be, if they showed up for the boarding, called to the attention of law enforcement. Had we had information that those two individuals presented a threat to aviation or posed a great danger, we would have put them on that list, and they should have been picked up in the reservation process.

Claudio Manno testimony

Last edited by thatsmystory; 19th August 2012 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 19th August 2012, 03:17 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
It's a shame they didn't, have enough time to find them.

Please excuse the copy paste

The FBI contacted Marriott on August 30, requesting that they check guest records, and on September 5, they reported that no Marriott hotels had any record of Mihdhar checking in.[50] The day before the attacks, the New York office requested that the Los Angeles FBI office check all local Sheraton Hotels,[50] as well as Lufthansa and United Airlines bookings, because those were the two airlines Mihdhar had used to enter the country.[51] Neither the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network nor the FBI's Financial Review Group, which have access to credit card and other private financial records, were notified about Mihdhar prior to September 11.[36]
Regarding the CIA's refusal to inform the FBI about Mihdhar and Hazmi, author Lawrence Wright suggests the CIA wanted to protect its turf and was concerned about giving sensitive intelligence to FBI Agent John P. O'Neill, who Alec Station chief Michael Scheuer described as duplicitous. Wright also speculates that the CIA may have been protecting intelligence operations overseas, and might have been eying Mihdhar and Hazmi as recruitment targets to obtain intelligence on al-Qaeda, although the CIA was not authorized to operate in the United States and might have been leaving them for Saudi intelligence to recruit.[16][53]
Thanks for this information. But with all due respect, is Lawrence Wright suggesting that the CIA allowed Mihdhar and Hazmi to take part in al Qaeda terrorists attacks inside of the US and kill almost 3000 people in order to prevent giving sensitive intelligence to FBI Agent John P. O'Neill, or to recruit Mihdhar and Hazmi. This does not seem to make any sense, and also does not explain why even the FBI HQ kept this same information on Mihdhar and Hazmi secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators. Was FBI HQ trying to keep this information from their own FBI field agents, in order to keep sensitive intelligence from FBI Agent John P. O'Neill or trying to recruit Mihdhar and Hazmi?

I think Wright may have had no idea on why the CIA and FBI HQ hid this information from the FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing, and just threw this out as wild unsupported speculation.

Every point I tried to make I tried to back up with a US official government document or report.

Wright cannot explain why FBI Director Louis Freeh hid the information on Mihdhar and Hazmi and the meeting in Kuala Lumpur from his own FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing. While his book, Looming Tower, was the very first to describe FBI Agent Ali Soufan’s request to Freeh, in November 2000, to make a official FBI request to the CIA for any information the CIA had on any al Qaeda planning meeting in southeast Asia in January 2000, and on Walid bin Attash. According to Wright, Freeh told Soufan that the CIA had none of this information.

But according to page 181 of the 9/11 Commission report and page 238/239 of the DOJ IG report, Freeh had gotten much of this information from the CIA in January 2000 and from the NSA in December 1999. Wright never went beyond describing Soufan’s request and Freeh’s answer. Since the 9/11 Commission report came out in June 2004, two years before his book, and the DOJ IG report in November 2004 he had plenty of time to research this and have this information in his book.

In spite of Looming Tower winning a Pulitzer prize, Wright must never have read the 9/11 Commission report, and never read the DOJ IG report. But it is almost inconceivable that he had not read these reports. Had he done this, his book could have taken on a whole new level of importance.
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Old 19th August 2012, 03:24 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by thatsmystory View Post
The FBI UBLU unit knew and intentionally made up excuses to keep the Cole investigators out of the loop. Evidently the public is asking too much to expect anyone from this unit to come forward and explain who told them to obstruct an active al Qaeda investigation.

The question that has never been answered by anyone at Alec Station or the UBLU is why the al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar criminal investigation was obstructed. Why is there a need for so much secrecy about this conduct?

In regard to the no fly list before 9/11:

Claudio Manno headed the FAA Intelligence Division in the lead up to 9/11. Here is his testimony during the Joint Inquiry Commission:
"Senator WYDEN. With respect to al Mihdhar and al-Hazmi, did your agency have the names of those two hijackers prior to September 11, 2001?

Mr. MANNO. No, we did not.

Senator WYDEN. If you had, what steps would have been taken, had you had that information?

Mr. MANNO. Well, prior to 9/11, we had a process, we had a socalled watch list which was disseminated to the industry via the security directive process. In fact, a number of the people that we suspected were involved in what we call the Manila plot, the Bojinko plot, as you referred to it, were on that list. Again, what we would—the purpose of that process was to highlight for the air carriers particular individuals, individuals that had ties to terrorist groups and that presented a threat to aviation who should either be denied boarding or should be, if they showed up for the boarding, called to the attention of law enforcement. Had we had information that those two individuals presented a threat to aviation or posed a great danger, we would have put them on that list, and they should have been picked up in the reservation process."



thatsmystory, Thanks for your information on the FAA and their no fly list.
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Old 19th August 2012, 03:35 PM   #105
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Hey Paloalto,
On 25th July 2000 Concorde crashed killing everyone on board. I know that the accident was caused by debris on the runway puncturing the fuel tank.

Why didn't they remove the debris. And why is no one taking action against the airport authority.

Sounds stupid ehh

Now tell me what the difference is with what your saying.
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Old 19th August 2012, 04:05 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
Hey Paloalto,
On 25th July 2000 Concorde crashed killing everyone on board. I know that the accident was caused by debris on the runway puncturing the fuel tank.

Why didn't they remove the debris. And why is no one taking action against the airport authority.

Sounds stupid ehh

Now tell me what the difference is with what your saying.
This was just a pure accident. Perhaps the airport was negligent in not inspecting the runway prior to the take off of the Concorde. Given the enormous air pressures in the tires this should have been standard practice before every take off. Two or three trucks just driving down the run way looking for debris just prior to the take off should have been enough.

This just was never done.
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Old 19th August 2012, 04:22 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
This was just a pure accident. Perhaps the airport was negligent in not inspecting the runway prior to the take off of the Concorde. Given the enormous air pressures in the tires this should have been standard practice before every take off. Two or three trucks just driving down the run way looking for debris just prior to the take off should have been enough.

This just was never done.
I think your missing my point. They didn't know the debris was there and had never had the problem before.

Anyway I'm not really getting where your coming from and what your goal is.

What are you trying to achieve in supplying us with this information. Is it to coincide with a book or something ?
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Old 19th August 2012, 04:37 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
This was just a pure accident. Perhaps the airport was negligent in not inspecting the runway prior to the take off of the Concorde. Given the enormous air pressures in the tires this should have been standard practice before every take off. Two or three trucks just driving down the run way looking for debris just prior to the take off should have been enough.

This just was never done.
911 was even tougher to predict, because it was planned. Accidents are not planned, unless you know for sure no one planted the debris.

Oh, now you want to back in runway checks before flight?
Oh, now you want to ban all knives on flights?

Hindsight. You make up crazy conclusions, all based on failed opinion and faulty analysis. You like Witch-Hunts.
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Old 19th August 2012, 05:34 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
Good question.

The pilots could have been charged with being part of a al Qaeda criminal conspiracy to carry out terrorists attacks inside of the US. The German government had evidence that they had been recruited by al Qaeda in Germany, by Mohammed Zammer, a al Qaeda recruiter. The fact they all had training on large commercial airliner simulators, several on B767/757 simulators would have been additional evidence they were connected to a plot to hijack the airliners they were on.
Had they been picked up before 9/11 they would never have hijacked an airliner. You might think that the training was intended to allow them to hijack a plane but historcally hijackers didn't take control of aircraft directly, they just coerced crews with threats so that wouldn't be an immediated red flag. None of the other flights that they'd taken had been hijacked by them so the only way you'd have direct evidence against them would be if some of the attacks still took place while they were in custody.
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Old 19th August 2012, 06:10 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
It was the charter of the CIA to prevent another Pearl Harbor,
Lie.

Quote:
and the FBI argued many times for an increase in their budget so they would have the funds necessary to prevent a terrorist attack inside of the US.
So? There was common knowledge terrorists wanted to attack the US. The FBI has a budget. This means, what?

Quote:
Both of this agencies were in effect chartered to stop a terrorists attack before it took place, you might say a terrorist attack in the future.
Lie.

Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
This was just a pure accident. Perhaps the airport was negligent in not inspecting the runway prior to the take off of the Concorde. Given the enormous air pressures in the tires this should have been standard practice before every take off. Two or three trucks just driving down the run way looking for debris just prior to the take off should have been enough.

This just was never done.
And the direct parralel to your argumnet about FBI/CIA "criminal acts" just went right over your head didn't it!?

Originally Posted by Reactor drone View Post
You might think that the training was intended to allow them to hijack a plane but historcally hijackers didn't take control of aircraft directly, they just coerced crews with threats so that wouldn't be an immediated red flag.
Yep. Their plan was to take advantage of the hijacking paradigm of the time. They used weapons undetectable to the technology of the time and/or legal to have on the plane. They used psychology in their manipulation of the passengers and crew. They used compartmentalization to segregate information even within their own teams on a "need to know" basis.

All that and their plan ceased to be functional by the fourth hijacking.
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Old 21st August 2012, 10:51 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
I think you’re missing my point. They didn't know the debris was there and had never had the problem before.

Anyway I'm not really getting where your coming from and what your goal is.

What are you trying to achieve in supplying us with this information. Is it to coincide with a book or something ?
I originally researched this question of why the CIA and FBI HQ had not given the information they had on Mihdhar and Hazmi for almost 21 months when I thought this question had not been adequately answered for the American people. This was the question pursued by both the Joint Inquiry Committee and the 9/11 Commission, without any results,. The Joint Inquiry Committee and the 9/11 Commission had both been trying to answer this exact same question, because this was the information that had it been given to the FBI in time, would have prevented the attacks on 9/11.


Tenet stated at the 9/11 Commission public hearings that the reasons this information was never given to the FBI Cole bombing investigators until after the attacks on 9/11 was “that mistakes were made”.

That was it, no further explanation.

I thought there might be more to this story than what was presented to the American people and looked into it in great detail. It turns out that the entire account of why the CIA and FBI HQ hid the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with Walid bin Attash actually planning the Cole bombing is well documented in the official US government reports from the investigations on 9/11. The whole story is however not together in any single one report. They have to be aggregated to see the entire picture. Each report had left out important details so no one could read any one report and see the whole picture.

After seeing many questions concerning this same area in this forum, I posted information I had found, in this blog, so other people could see what I had found out with respect to the attacks on 9/11 and why they were allowed to take place.

I can see why some people might be disturbed by this information. I was shocked at first when I put this story together myself, but it is what it is. It shows that a number of people at the huge intelligence agencies had allowed these attacks on 9/11 to take place. Not many but enough to have been able to hide the information that the CIA had, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing at Kuala Lumpur.

Some of these people then shut down FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s investigation of these two al Qaeda terrorists when they were found to be inside of the US. These actions were taken when both the CIA and FBI HQ knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US. Even today there is no official explanation of the actions that were taken at the CIA and FBI HQ to allow the attacks on 9/11 to take place, and no single report from any of the investigations of 9/11 has put this account back together again in one place.
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Old 21st August 2012, 11:30 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
I originally researched this question of why the CIA and FBI HQ had not given the information they had on Mihdhar and Hazmi for almost 21 months when I thought this question had not been adequately answered for the American people. This was the question pursued by both the Joint Inquiry Committee and the 9/11 Commission, without any results,. The Joint Inquiry Committee and the 9/11 Commission had both been trying to answer this exact same question, because this was the information that had it been given to the FBI in time, would have prevented the attacks on 9/11.


Tenet stated at the 9/11 Commission public hearings that the reasons this information was never given to the FBI Cole bombing investigators until after the attacks on 9/11 was “that mistakes were made”.

That was it, no further explanation.

I thought there might be more to this story than what was presented to the American people and looked into it in great detail. It turns out that the entire account of why the CIA and FBI HQ hid the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting with Walid bin Attash actually planning the Cole bombing is well documented in the official US government reports from the investigations on 9/11. The whole story is however not together in any single one report. They have to be aggregated to see the entire picture. Each report had left out important details so no one could read any one report and see the whole picture.

After seeing many questions concerning this same area in this forum, I posted information I had found, in this blog, so other people could see what I had found out with respect to the attacks on 9/11 and why they were allowed to take place.

I can see why some people might be disturbed by this information. I was shocked at first when I put this story together myself, but it is what it is. It shows that a number of people at the huge intelligence agencies had allowed these attacks on 9/11 to take place. Not many but enough to have been able to hide the information that the CIA had, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing at Kuala Lumpur.

Some of these people then shut down FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s investigation of these two al Qaeda terrorists when they were found to be inside of the US. These actions were taken when both the CIA and FBI HQ knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US. Even today there is no official explanation of the actions that were taken at the CIA and FBI HQ to allow the attacks on 9/11 to take place, and no single report from any of the investigations of 9/11 has put this account back together again in one place.
I might buy it if information overload in bloated federal administrations weren't such a compelling explanation.
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Old 21st August 2012, 11:40 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Who's defending who, from what?

The only one that can be accused of sheltering (whoever) is you. Why do you refuse to bring this to the proper authorities? We're not stopping you.

Can you explain your inaction? Do you think we are the right "authority" to bring this to?

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Until you go to the IG and get indictments based on your assertions, you're just running your mouth with this ****.

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Then you know where to bring your case file.

Have at it and report back.

Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Let us know how it goes.

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Repost for paloalto:



We're waiting.

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Secondly, paloalto, you keep posting these walls of text, claiming you have evidence of injustice.

What do you want us to do about it?

Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
I see that Myriad beat me to the key point but let's follow through a bit:
(BTW paloalto you have quote mined BUT there is enough to work with for now.)
Elements of proof:
1) Identify 'Whoever'
Don't go a step further until you satisfy this element of proof.
2) What is the relevant 'record, document, or tangible object'?
Don't go a step further until you satisfy this element of proof.
3) What action do you allege was taken 'alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry' - you will have to be specific as to which. AND, as Myriad has said, 'omission' is not an offence.
Don't go a step further until you satisfy this element of proof.
4) What is the 'matter'?
Don't go a step further until you satisfy this element of proof.
5) What is your proof of 'intent'? To the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' - the same standard for all these elements of proof.
Don't go a step further until you satisfy this element of proof.
6) How did the act of the accused 'impede, obstruct, or influence the....'
Don't go a step further until you satisfy this element of proof.
7) Demonstrate 'within the jurisdiction of' any department or agency
Don't go a step further until you satisfy this element of proof.
8) Identify which 'department or agency'.

Those will do for starters.

I haven't asked him. Have you?
I was going to add "that's nice, what are you going to do about it?" to the chorus, but then I read:

Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The short answer is "Not my yob!"
So copy-pasting on internet forums really is the end game. Ok, then. Mission Accomplished. Congrats.


Last edited by carlitos; 21st August 2012 at 11:42 AM. Reason: quotes
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Old 21st August 2012, 12:18 PM   #114
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So had the FBI known the whereabouts of Mihdhar and Hazmi in sept 01 and they captured them. 3000 lives would have been saved.

OR

Had they captured Mihdhar and Hazmi, the pentagon would not have been hit.
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Old 21st August 2012, 01:02 PM   #115
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This thread needs this.

CIA Realizes It's Been Using Black Highlighters All These Years!!

http://www.theonion.com/articles/cia...ters-all,1848/
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Old 21st August 2012, 02:48 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
So had the FBI known the whereabouts of Mihdhar and Hazmi in sept 01 and they captured them. 3000 lives would have been saved.

OR

Had they captured Mihdhar and Hazmi, the pentagon would not have been hit.
The value in knowing about Mihdhar and Hazmi was in finding out about their credit cards and their other contacts through phone records, and putting them on surveillance before and while they boarded their flight.

The fact that the FBI could have traced their credit card record to the flights on 9/11 departing the airport they were departing from would have been a big clue that if there were other flights that were going to be hijacked, that would have been departing at the same time these other flights also left the other airports.

Since it was reported that the credit cards of Mihdhar and Hazmi were used to purchase 10 of the airline tickets used on 9/11 and since one of the flights had only 4 terrorists on it, just these credit card purchases might have located at least three of the flights hijacked on 9/11, and could likely also have identified the three airport that all of the flights hijacked on 9/11 were taking off from. Had they been arrested this might also have prevented the attacks on 9/11. KSM stated that if he had known about the Moussaoui arrest, he would have called off the attacks on 9/11, at least temporarily

Last edited by paloalto; 21st August 2012 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 21st August 2012, 03:01 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
CIA Realizes It's Been Using Black Highlighters All These Years!!

http://www.theonion.com/articles/cia...ters-all,1848/
Almost all documents at the CIA had a back up copy somewhere else at the CIA. It is not believable that they would actually high light with a black pen or marker, this was done to redact information in these documents which the CIA did on a regular basis.

But the documents that were redacted, in my opinion, must have had a back up copy somewhere else in the CIA and the redactions were only done when the CIA did not want the original documents with secret information shown to someone outside of the CIA.

Whoever marks up an original copy of a source or otherwise original document?

No one would believe that the CIA would be this dumb. This is another one of those dog ate my home work excuses to show that information was lost. Like the tapes of torture that the CIA said were not available until it was found out after the court asked for them that they had been available but then had been secretly destroyed just after the court's request.

Last edited by paloalto; 21st August 2012 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 21st August 2012, 07:39 PM   #118
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Having been around as long as I have, I have no problem believing that someone in any law enforcement or intelligence agency is that stupid.

And PA, FTR, The FBI and CIA have employees who do nothing other than hang paper on other employees for bending or breaking the sop rules and regs, let alone criminal statutes.

If your connect-the-dots investigator role play was even close to being provable in a court of law, the individuals in question would have been .

So. when are you going to D.C. and announce your findings?
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Old 21st August 2012, 09:36 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The fact that the FBI could have traced their credit card record to the flights on 9/11 departing the airport they were departing from would have been a big clue that if there were other flights that were going to be hijacked, that would have been departing at the same time these other flights also left the other airports.
Not to interrupt the use of your super-hindsight powers to tell us what "should have been done" but do you have any idea how long it takes - ouside of TV and movies (which apparently is where you do most of your research) - for a credit card company to respond to a federal grand jury subpoena?

Last edited by Robrob; 21st August 2012 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 21st August 2012, 10:31 PM   #120
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So in your extensive research, your did not find out that Mihdhar and Hazmi paid $2300 in cash for their tickets ?

You seem to forget that it is not an offence to buy airline tickets.

Your whole quest is about what if and attempting to divert the blame.

Has it not occurred to you that if America had something to hide they would not put it on the www ?

Last edited by Spanx; 21st August 2012 at 10:38 PM.
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