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#1 |
...tart
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 660
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Free Thought Project Meme
I just recently facebook-friended the nicest lady. We seem to have similar political views and share interest in such obscure things as the fate of Radio Shack. Then this morning, this shows up in my feed
I posted that any expert on physics could tell her the claims are nonsense. Since I'm not an expert on physics, is there a simple summation I can give her if she challenges me? |
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"LMAO! pure intelligets, have you read my posts?"--superlogicalthinker
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#2 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,391
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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#3 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 5,702
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That's way too simple an explanation....
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There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
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#4 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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I'd ask her to explain exactly what laws of physics were violated and how. After she fails at that, ask her for calculation to show there was not enough energy.
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#5 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,101
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In my experience people who believe in conspiracies have emotional reasons for doing so.
"it violates the laws of physics" actually means: "I am assuming this thing here somehow validates what I want to believe, but I don't know any of the details and will interpret critical questions as a personal attack." So my advice would be: don't bother. |
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#6 |
このマスクによっ
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,775
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There is an extremely verbose way to cover this but the short technical explanation is that towers would only behave in the fashion CT's think if they were monolithic structures with no in-between smaller interconnected pieces. Referencing the lower stories not being on fire is irrelevant... everything that failed below the impact regions failed because the elements along the collapse interface got overloaded and too eccentrically loaded in rapid succession to act as part of the overall structural system.
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#7 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,868
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#8 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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The problem is, there is no actual claim as to what laws of physics were violated, so what would they be "debunking"?
This whole "campaign" is a no starter at face value. It's based on a false starting assumption and it really just goes down hill from there. Their energy bullet points are kind of funny considering they more or less express the same thing but fail to explain an interaction. ![]() I'm sure their target audience will total get what they are saying. |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#9 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,605
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Can you people please stop not thinking? - Gorgonian The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. -Good luck America with President Trump |
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#10 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,391
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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#11 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,910
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oops, already covered
The WTC was a very strong building, a system of made up of a core, a shell and floors. The floors are "hanging" on the core and shell and provide that important connection to the shell and core. The shell is the lateral support for the WTC, making it possible to stand in hurricane force winds, the core and shell hold up the WTC, the floors only hold up themselves attached to the core and shell. The floor connections at the shell and core fail above 29,000,000 pounds about the mass of ~12 floors; thus dropping a mass of 15 floors will destroy each floor connections in turn with the shell being ripped up into parts as it was built, and the core failing since it can't stand without the shell for lateral support.
The strength of the WTC is also its weakness. Unlike the Empire State Building, the WTC could stop aircraft impacts at 200 mph with energy of 200 pounds of TNT. The ESB could not stop an 18 pound of TNT impact. Floors fail above 29,000,000 pounds. But prepare for the Gish Gallop of cold fire, steel can't fail, thermite, thermate, C4, Planes can't fly fast, terrorists can't fly, nukes, free-fall, squibs, explosives in the basement; and if she comes up with something new, share it. |
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#12 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 2,828
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So many idiots and so little time. |
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#13 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 2,828
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So many idiots and so little time. |
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#14 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,910
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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein "... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232 |
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#15 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,605
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From NIST FAQ #12
"The individual connection capacities ranged from 94,000 pounds to 395,000 pounds, with a total vertical load capacity for the connections on a typical floor of 29,000,000 pounds (see Section 5.2.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1-6C)." If that is not the live load I'll stand corrected. Edit: Ok I think I see where I am going wrong. Live Load refers to the people and furnishings. Gravity Load refers to the Live and Dead loads together. I see your point regarding Live Load and it agrees with the estimate by Thomas Eager: "With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t [2,600,000 lbs] beyond its own weight." Thank you for the clarification. |
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Can you people please stop not thinking? - Gorgonian The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. -Good luck America with President Trump |
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#16 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,854
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) |
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#17 |
このマスクによっ
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,775
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By they way... simple explanation on this might be to compare how basic college level physics problems are treated vs what the towers actually are. I recall my college level classes started in basics with single-element problems, where you dealt with one simple solid mass, following one simple direction of motion in a frictionless environment...
The towers had tens of thousands of interconnected pieces scaled exponentially higher than simple physics problems. Look at what engineers have to do in order to calculate how these things have to be designed before they're constructed, in order for the final product to work as intended... That meme follows the casual simple body concept of physics and tries to scale it to that of a skyscraper... there's a pretty simple, uncomplicated reason why that line of thinking is wrong. |
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My new side hobby.... giving online game cheaters a rough time ._. Current Set:http://i.imgur.com/IoqiUdK.jpg |
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#18 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,829
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Exactly it is a result of connections being forced to work individually because of essesive loading in a dynamic Collapse, that results in rapid energy transfer that can not be shared or compensated for by sharing loads in the structure, as outlined by James Clark Maxwell.
Connections are most effected by the time interval of sudden undesigned for loads, the faster the loading occurs the less time for the energy to dissipate though the structure. That's what Maxwell said in his pinned beam equations. That's why the top block represention is so wrong. |
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#19 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,829
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The live load is meaningless once the forces become dynamic, because load timing comes into play the faster the loading and momentum of impacts the less time for collective load sharing between connections.
Time, momentum, and individual strength of the connections are the key factors the Cters argument is so pour that it can't even be considered physics. |
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