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Old 2nd September 2007, 11:25 AM   #1
Norseman
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Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

After doing a bit of research the last days, here are some thoughts on why the jet fuel fireballs on sublevel B4 and in the lobby of WTC 1 could be so destructive.

The keyword is backdraft. The burning jet fuel cascading/raining down the elevator shafts of car number 6,7 and 50 would consume all available oxygen in the shaft on its way down. Behind the burning front of the fireball, in the shafts, there would follow a cloud of expanding hot gasses including evaporated jet fuel, CO and likely pyrolyzed jet fuel, all lacking oxygen to combust.

When the fireball shot out of the shafts at the bottom, all the unburned gasses mixed with fresh air and rapidly deflagrated, causing the overpressure that blew out walls and windows.

Normally backdraft occurs in fires when fresh air suddenly enters the confined space of an oxygen starved fire. The principle would be the same for an oxygen starved fireball that shoots in to a room filled with fresh air.

Here is a YouTube video from Uruguay showing the effect of a backdraft. And it also gives an impression of what it would have looked like when the fireballs shot out of the elevator shafts.

Here is an artificially created backdraft.

According to this article by Vincent Dunn moderate amounts of over-pressure can fail walls. Here is another article discussing violent fire deflagrations including backdraft.

Regarding the time for the fireballs to reach the bottom of the shafts witness Edward McCabe gives the following account:
Quote:
I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4.I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building.I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant.
According to Wikipedia large raindrops impacts ground with a speed of 9 m/s. This gives a fall time for a fuel drop from the impact area to the bottom of the shafts of about 40 seconds. But the time would very likely be somewhat shorter due to down draught from falling elevators and expanding fire-gasses. So the timing of Edward McCabe looks very reasonable. By the way, evaporated/pyrolyzed jet fuel creates white smoke.

Nothing earth shattering, but hopefully it gives a better understanding of the events.

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Old 2nd September 2007, 11:39 AM   #2
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This is the kind of thing you'd never see a Twoofer do. A carefully explained, scientifically sound explanation of an event on 9/11. Perhaps not earth shattering, but orders of magnitude more plausible than anything any Twoofer could come up with. Nicely done.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 12:10 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
According to Wikipedia large raindrops impacts ground with a speed of 9 m/s. This gives a fall time for a fuel drop from the impact area to the bottom of the shafts of about 40 seconds. But the time would very likely be somewhat shorter due to down draught from falling elevators and expanding fire-gasses. So the timing of Edward McCabe looks very reasonable. By the way, evaporated/pyrolyzed jet fuel creates white smoke.
Just to add to your useful and perfectly reasonable comments,

We expect the "droplets" of jet fuel to be much, much larger than rain droplets. The jet fuel is not all coalescing out of vapor phase. Instead, the droplet size will be driven by Plateau-Rayleigh instability, which states that the droplet radius will be approximately equal to the radius of the original stream of fluid -- potentially quite large. Larger droplets would fall much faster.

I would actually expect the rate of fuel travel to be limited by wetting effects on the sides of elevator shafts, rather than aerodynamic considerations. Not sure how to estimate this without conducting an experiment. In any event, the timing seems plausible to me.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 02:04 PM   #4
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Planted explosives are much more sinister, therefore more plausible to the truth avoiders.

Here's the thing. If it was explosives what was their purpose? The towers didn't collapse for another hour, so they obviously didn't initiate collapse. Maybe they were planted and blown because the perps didn't think flying airliners into the towers at 500 mph would scare people enough? "Sir, one or two extra sticks of TNT might be just enough to cause panic."
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Old 2nd September 2007, 04:27 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Just to add to your useful and perfectly reasonable comments,
Thanks. And just to elaborate a little bit more.

Quote:
We expect the "droplets" of jet fuel to be much, much larger than rain droplets. The jet fuel is not all coalescing out of vapor phase. Instead, the droplet size will be driven by Plateau-Rayleigh instability, which states that the droplet radius will be approximately equal to the radius of the original stream of fluid -- potentially quite large. Larger droplets would fall much faster.
That would be correct initially, but when the speed increases water droplets with a size above 5 mm becomes unstable, and breaks up in to droplets of smaller diameters. Here is an interesting AMS article from 1970 about this that I found, where they started with a water flowing under zero pressure from a hose 60 meters above the ground. And here is an illustration of rain droplet breakup. At exactly what size jet fuel droplets breakup, in situations comparable to rain, I have not found, but this should be within the ballpark.

Quote:
I would actually expect the rate of fuel travel to be limited by wetting effects on the sides of elevator shafts, rather than aerodynamic considerations. Not sure how to estimate this without conducting an experiment.
If I understand you correctly, some amount of droplets should be picked up by the shaft sides on the way down. Yes, that should definitely be a limiting factor. Considering this it seems likely that no liquid jet fuel traveled all the way to the bottom, just the gasses. Therefore the fall rate of liquid droplets would possibly not be an reliable indicator to time the fireball with. Then we would have to consider how fast the fire gasses could expand downward in the shafts. But as you say, I guess we would need an experiment or an elaborate simulation to give us any exact answers on this.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 04:41 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
Thanks. And just to elaborate a little bit more.

That would be correct initially, but when the speed increases water droplets with a size above 5 mm becomes unstable, and breaks up in to droplets of smaller diameters. Here is an interesting AMS article from 1970 about this that I found, where they started with a water flowing under zero pressure from a hose 60 meters above the ground. And here is an illustration of rain droplet breakup. At exactly what size jet fuel droplets breakup, in situations comparable to rain, I have not found, but this should be within the ballpark.
Also correct. The conditions in the WTC Towers would be quite complicated...

One interesting scenario would be for jet fuel to "pool" on or around a large elevator, say the main freight elevator, about the time said elevator had its cables cut by the impact. The fuel would then fall with the elevator at "virtually free-fall" speeds , resulting in a fireball in the sublevels only a few seconds after impact.

Lots of possibilities.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 04:51 PM   #7
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R mackey, lifts, tend to have an anti fall device fitted, so that if the cables snap, restraining bolts spring out, catching the lift... So its doubtful that any lifts would have fallen, however, there are gaps and burning fuel would 1 pass into the lift itself (if it found an opening), and two, some of it would go around the lift, following the path of the least resistance.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 05:25 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by peteweaver View Post
R mackey, lifts, tend to have an anti fall device fitted, so that if the cables snap, restraining bolts spring out, catching the lift... So its doubtful that any lifts would have fallen, however, there are gaps and burning fuel would 1 pass into the lift itself (if it found an opening), and two, some of it would go around the lift, following the path of the least resistance.
Anti-falling devices notwithstanding, there were lifts that did fall. I wouldn't have suggested this otherwise. The huge fireball in the sublevels cited by William Rodriguez did, in fact, issue from a freight elevator shaft after the elevator fell due to the impacts.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 10:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Anti-falling devices notwithstanding, there were lifts that did fall. I wouldn't have suggested this otherwise. The huge fireball in the sublevels cited by William Rodriguez did, in fact, issue from a freight elevator shaft after the elevator fell due to the impacts.
I should think that there would be a set speed at which the brakes would engage, and that there would be some provision for graduated deceleration so that passengers are not driven out the bottom of the elevator car when it stops.

At any rate, the fuel travelling into the basement would have been highly aerosolized and quite probably oxygenated to a point that it would create quite a blast in the basements, if it hit a source of ignition. I am sure that there are plenty such sources on a mechanical floor. However, I would further not expect all available fuel to have been consumed in one god-awful WHOOF! Some of it may have also been forced into other areas to ignite later. I am not sure where, but I recall reading a narrative in which a team of fire fighters heard "something shifting and thumping" on one of the mechanical floors. Quite likely, it seems to me, some of the fuel exploded and knocked equipment driven by electric motors out of its mountings, but did not cut off electrical supplies. There is also a clip somewhere on YouTube of a young man who opened a door and was met by a major explosion. No question in my mind what that would have been.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 06:34 AM   #10
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Elevator braking devices only work if the elevators remain on their guiderails.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 07:19 AM   #11
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Fair points, I stand corrected.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 03:44 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
At any rate, the fuel travelling into the basement would have been highly aerosolized and quite probably oxygenated to a point that it would create quite a blast in the basements, if it hit a source of ignition. I am sure that there are plenty such sources on a mechanical floor.
Could be, but I still think that the backdraft scenario with a burning front, that I described in the opening post of this thread, best fits the available witness accounts I have read so far. But I will keep it in mind when I elaborate further on the issue. The ignition source in your scenario could also be the fireball traveling down the shafts behind the front of the fuel droplets, while it sustains itself on the falling fuel. Good input.

Quote:
I am not sure where, but I recall reading a narrative in which a team of fire fighters heard "something shifting and thumping" on one of the mechanical floors. Quite likely, it seems to me, some of the fuel exploded and knocked equipment driven by electric motors out of its mountings, but did not cut off electrical supplies.
This account from WTC1 was given by Joseph Shearin:
Quote:
The 41st-floor mechanical room had sustained considerable damage – equipment formerly located in the ceiling was down on the floor and water was gushing from crushed pipes.
In addition to likely fuel or fireball entering the mechanical room causing damage, I also find it very likely that vibrations and swaying of the building from the airplane impact could also cause serious damage to the mounting of heavy equipment.
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Old 4th September 2007, 04:43 PM   #13
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Just for some excitement, here's another backdraft explosion

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Old 4th September 2007, 04:49 PM   #14
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My oh my, the silence from the truthers is deafening in this thread.
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Old 26th November 2007, 09:04 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
While checking a PDF I have on file for the number of ABM employees who died on 9/11 (17: see page 12), I came across an account that I'd somehow missed before. It's the story of James Barrett, like Rodriguez an ABM janitor, who was in the north tower basement when both planes hit. I don't know what level he was on. His account is notable for several reasons:

1) He didn't hear either plane impact, wasn't aware of any explosions, and didn't know anything was wrong until he went up to the plaza level on routine business.

2) He is the one who helped Rodriguez rescue the men in the north tower freight elevator who had sprinkler water pouring on them. Before today, I'd never known his identity. Rodriguez says he met this man in the north tower.

3) His account makes an interesting addition to the accounts of people who didn't hear the impacts. On this page I quote several people in each tower who were closer to the impact zones than was Rodriguez and who felt, but didn't hear, the impacts. Below, I've reprinted part of the accounts of Edward McCabe, on the B-4 level, who felt a slight shift of the building and about 30 seconds later saw a door blow off its hinges, followed by white smoke; and Mike Pecoraro, on the B-6 level, who felt and saw nothing, but whose co-worker noticed the lights flicker, then they saw white smoke that smelled like kerosene.

4) I think Barrett's account illustrates the localized nature of the jet fuel explosion in the basement core, and lends credence to the idea that Rodriguez didn't hear flight 11's impact.

See also Salvatore Giambanco's corroboration of the elevator rescue on this page, and the Port Authority radio transcripts on this page.

Other interesting basement stories (more here):
Oh god, not this jet fuel basement explosion thing again....this has been analyzed to death and found without merit.

Start here for one of the most throughouh analysis: Basement Explosion

As a follow up you can read more here: North Tower Basement Explosion.

For true believers perhaps you can explain the following issues:

1. Simply trace the route of the jet fuel, in liquid or fireball form from the initial impact to the basement areas.

2. Determine how the fireball, if that is what you truly think caused the damage in the basement areas, had enough energy to cause the local destruction witnessed at impact, and yet not destroy the shafts on the way down to the basement, and then have the energy to destroy parts of the basement areas underneath both towers.

3. Explain how people closest to impact survived the initial blast and jet fuel explosion and then explain how parts of the basement, furthest away from impact, did not.

4. List the accounts of survivors who witnessed pools of jet fuel streaming down the shafts and/or puddling in the area.

5. Find witnesses who were not later TOLD what had happened. I point this out as Gravy uses Ed's account but he, like many if not all of the people in the basement, were later TOLD what happened.

6. And what about Jenny Carr's audio record of the day? Can you explain that loud sound just prior to the apparent impact of the plane?
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Old 26th November 2007, 09:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Oh god, not this jet fuel basement explosion thing again....this has been analyzed to death and found without merit.
where exactly do you think the "basement explosions" originated?
straight-forward answer please.

BV
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Old 26th November 2007, 11:13 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
1. Simply trace the route of the jet fuel, in liquid or fireball form from the initial impact to the basement areas.

Down the freight elevator shaft. Thanks.


Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
2. Determine how the fireball, if that is what you truly think caused the damage in the basement areas, had enough energy to cause the local destruction witnessed at impact, and yet not destroy the shafts on the way down to the basement, and then have the energy to destroy parts of the basement areas underneath both towers.
The fireball was created at the bottom of the shaft.


Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
3. Explain how people closest to impact survived the initial blast and jet fuel explosion and then explain how parts of the basement, furthest away from impact, did not.
The damaged basement survived the initial explosion fine. It was the secondary explosion caused by jet fuel spilling down shafts that did it.


Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
4. List the accounts of survivors who witnessed pools of jet fuel streaming down the shafts and/or puddling in the area.
WTF would anyone be doing in the elevator shaft? (And not in an elevator).


Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
6. And what about Jenny Carr's audio record of the day? Can you explain that loud sound just prior to the apparent impact of the plane?
Judging by most of the other Truther "explosion" evidence, I'd guess it's probably fake.

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Old 26th November 2007, 11:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Oh god, not this jet fuel basement explosion thing again....this has been analyzed to death and found without merit.

Start here for one of the most throughouh analysis: Basement Explosion

As a follow up you can read more here: North Tower Basement Explosion.

For true believers perhaps you can explain the following issues:

1. Simply trace the route of the jet fuel, in liquid or fireball form from the initial impact to the basement areas.

2. Determine how the fireball, if that is what you truly think caused the damage in the basement areas, had enough energy to cause the local destruction witnessed at impact, and yet not destroy the shafts on the way down to the basement, and then have the energy to destroy parts of the basement areas underneath both towers.

3. Explain how people closest to impact survived the initial blast and jet fuel explosion and then explain how parts of the basement, furthest away from impact, did not.

4. List the accounts of survivors who witnessed pools of jet fuel streaming down the shafts and/or puddling in the area.

5. Find witnesses who were not later TOLD what had happened. I point this out as Gravy uses Ed's account but he, like many if not all of the people in the basement, were later TOLD what happened.

6. And what about Jenny Carr's audio record of the day? Can you explain that loud sound just prior to the apparent impact of the plane?
So you are suggesting that there were secondary explosive devices planted in the basement? What purpose did they serve, seeing as how the towers collapsed from the top down?
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Old 26th November 2007, 11:40 AM   #19
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You know, when firefighters entered the building, there was a stench of Kerosene and people by the elevators burnt to death where they stood (or sat in the case of the guard.)

I suppose Thermite explains that?
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Old 27th November 2007, 06:58 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
So you are suggesting that there were secondary explosive devices planted in the basement? What purpose did they serve, seeing as how the towers collapsed from the top down?
Quote:
cloudshipsrule Planted explosives are much more sinister, therefore more plausible to the truth avoiders.
Here's the thing. If it was explosives what was their purpose? The towers didn't collapse for another hour, so they obviously didn't initiate collapse. Maybe they were planted and blown because the perps didn't think flying airliners into the towers at 500 mph would scare people enough? "Sir, one or two extra sticks of TNT might be just enough to cause panic.
1. To destroy the pumping system that would help fight the fire in the upper parts of the tower.

2. To split the firefighting and rescue efforts.

3. A secondary attack on the structure in case they didn't suffer global collapse.


Quote:
Gumboot
Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
1. Simply trace the route of the jet fuel, in liquid or fireball form from the initial impact to the basement areas.

Down the freight elevator shaft. Thanks.
Down the elevator shaft? Which one? And how does that correspond with the survivors in the elevator? On a graphic of the elevator layout, please show this route.
Quote:
6. And what about Jenny Carr's audio record of the day? Can you explain that loud sound just prior to the apparent impact of the plane?
Judging by most of the other Truther "explosion" evidence, I'd guess it's probably fake.
ROFLMAO! Ok. Take that up with Jenny Carr. I don't think calling it a fake is going to get you out of this one. Please provide scientific evidence proving the recording is a fake.
The interesting thing on the tape is that the first explosion(sound) sounds nearly identical to the plane impact explosion.

Quote:
bonavada
Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Oh god, not this jet fuel basement explosion thing again....this has been analyzed to death and found without merit.
where exactly do you think the "basement explosions" originated?
straight-forward answer please.

BV
Parking garage.

Quote:
R.Mackey
Anti-falling devices notwithstanding, there were lifts that did fall. I wouldn't have suggested this otherwise. The huge fireball in the sublevels cited by William Rodriguez did, in fact, issue from a freight elevator shaft after the elevator fell due to the impacts.
Can you please accurately source the information for the elevator fell due to impacts? Thanks. We know the elevator fell, but it didn't fall into the elevator pit areas. That is pure speculation on NIST's part which has no evidence to support their assumption.

Quote:
Norseman
Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby
After doing a bit of research the last days, here are some thoughts on why the jet fuel fireballs on sublevel B4 and in the lobby of WTC 1 could be so destructive.

The keyword is backdraft. The burning jet fuel cascading/raining down the elevator shafts of car number 6,7 and 50 would consume all available oxygen in the shaft on its way down. Behind the burning front of the fireball, in the shafts, there would follow a cloud of expanding hot gasses including evaporated jet fuel, CO and likely pyrolyzed jet fuel, all lacking oxygen to combust.
No, the key word is energy. How much energy needs to be expended to cause the damage on some many basement levels. Here is a hint, it isn't from jet fuel.
Quote:
Regarding the time for the fireballs to reach the bottom of the shafts witness Edward McCabe gives the following account:
Quote:
I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4.I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building.I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant.
According to Wikipedia large raindrops impacts ground with a speed of 9 m/s. This gives a fall time for a fuel drop from the impact area to the bottom of the shafts of about 40 seconds. But the time would very likely be somewhat shorter due to down draught from falling elevators and expanding fire-gasses. So the timing of Edward McCabe looks very reasonable. By the way, evaporated/pyrolyzed jet fuel creates white smoke.
Unfortunately you are assuming that it was jet fuel that caused the explosion and white smoke. Ed is TOLD what it was later. And as far as that jet fuel falling down the shafts, there is going to be something in the way...the elevator itself. And for the jet fuel vapor being white, what you need to do now is explain the process in relation to the environment of how that jet fuel went to liquid then unstable vapor form in the alloted time frame.
So your theory is now dependent upon the size of a rain drop? LOL!
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Old 27th November 2007, 07:05 AM   #21
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Swing, this has been pointed out to you before so I don't suspect you'll take notice of it now....but the people in the sub-levels suffered BURNS - not blast injuries.
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Old 27th November 2007, 09:46 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
1. To destroy the pumping system that would help fight the fire in the upper parts of the tower.

2. To split the firefighting and rescue efforts.

3. A secondary attack on the structure in case they didn't suffer global collapse.
None of which was effective... You cannot "split" a firefighting effort when one of them is 78 stories above, and only accessible by foot. The firefighting system (I assume you mean the standpipes) was destroyed quite effectively by the aircraft impact, making the comparatively minor blasts down below pretty much pointless. And the effect of the explosions (caused by fuel, though you deny it) was negligible in terms of structural damage.

Pretty far out conclusion you've got there, as usual.

Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Can you please accurately source the information for the elevator fell due to impacts? Thanks. We know the elevator fell, but it didn't fall into the elevator pit areas. That is pure speculation on NIST's part which has no evidence to support their assumption.
Sigh. I sourced it in the post that you quoted. It comes from USA Today, not NIST.

I also have no idea where you get the idea that "the elevator fell, but not into the elevator pit areas." O RLY? Where did they fall, then, and can you please "accurately source" that?

As before, there is nothing at all here inconsistent with jet fuel phenomena. Nor can you concoct, even speculatively, a scenario in which setting off explosives is either possible or makes sense.
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Old 27th November 2007, 09:53 AM   #23
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Explosions can also be caused by gasses from incomplete combustion.

A oxygen-depleted room full of hot carbon monoxide and smoke is the usual cause of a backdraft.
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Old 27th November 2007, 10:01 AM   #24
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Oh, one more laugher from Swing

Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
No, the key word is energy. How much energy needs to be expended to cause the damage on some many basement levels. Here is a hint, it isn't from jet fuel.
Let's see some numbers.

And as you assemble those, you might want to keep in mind that, in terms of energy content, jet fuel is roughly four to ten times higher than explosives, pound for pound. The amount of fuel draining into the lower structure, estimated by NIST, is roughly 24,000 pounds in each Tower.

In other words, you've just made an argument that there must have been at least 100,000 pounds of explosives in each basement.

Got you.

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Old 27th November 2007, 10:13 AM   #25
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You do indeed "got him".

Plus I don't think he has any way to QUANTIFY the damage to the basements in the first place, so there is no possibility of him coming up with a number that means anything.
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Old 27th November 2007, 10:19 AM   #26
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R. Mackey:

To be fair, you should specify what type of explosives you're comparing to...You know, it would be twice as much black powder as TNT, for example...and about 40% more TNT than C-4.

Not that this will make any appreciable difference to your conclusion, but certain individuals will likely claim it does, if we aren't perfectly clear (or even if we are, but still)
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Old 27th November 2007, 10:42 AM   #27
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Has anyone ever played with a "spud gun" as a kid?

Where's crazy chainsaw, he probably still has one in his garage.
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Old 27th November 2007, 10:46 AM   #28
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If by "kid" you mean "college student" and if by "played" you mean "synchronized with many others to simultaneously bombard the campus security office from four different firing positions" then yes

ETA: ALthough, to be fair, these weren't actually spud guns. We used tennis ball cans and tennis balls.

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Old 27th November 2007, 01:11 PM   #29
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[quote]
Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
None of which was effective... You cannot "split" a firefighting effort when one of them is 78 stories above, and only accessible by foot. The firefighting system (I assume you mean the standpipes) was destroyed quite effectively by the aircraft impact, making the comparatively minor blasts down below pretty much pointless. And the effect of the explosions (caused by fuel, though you deny it) was negligible in terms of structural damage.
Sure you can.
1. Lots of firefighters.
2. Some go to the impact zone.
3. Some go to the basement levels. Why would you waste our time on this elementary suggestion for one possible motive?
You must have not read Ed McCabe's description of firefighters without flashlights who actually left him alone in the sub-basement to check on secretaries who were injured by what they thought was a bomb going off in their offices.
Hmmm firefighters after impact and and after basement explosions in the basement instead of the impact zone. It sure sounds like firefighting efforts were split to me.

The standpipe's 294A and B as well as the jockeypump were located in the basement hence the desire to eliminate this firefighting process.

You realize that the explosion on the 22nd floor knocked out the Secure Command Center's ability to manually start the sprinkler system? Oh well, sorry I got off topic there.

Quote:
Rmackey-Sigh. I sourced it in the post that you quoted. It comes from USA Today, not NIST.
I'm sorry but if you would have sourced it, I would not have asked for your source.
Quote:
I also have no idea where you get the idea that "the elevator fell, but not into the elevator pit areas." O RLY? Where did they fall, then, and can you please "accurately source" that?
Where did I get the idea? From NIST. I thought you were the resident expert on the NIST report.
Quote:
Two of the interviewee's associates were injured by flying concrete block on the B2 and/or B4 levels when the 50 Car elevator crashed to the bottom of WTC 1. (NIST NCSTAR1-8, p.80 - PDF) and For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 ( Bank B ) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. …Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so.(NIST NCSTAR1-7, p.160 - PDF)
Arturo Griffith's account from the USA Today source of course disproves the car 50 crash nonsense as do the emergency brakes on the other car and their maintenance.
Quote:
As before, there is nothing at all here inconsistent with jet fuel phenomena. Nor can you concoct, even speculatively, a scenario in which setting off explosives is either possible or makes sense.
Explosives doesn't make sense? LOL. Lets examine the 1993 bombing and see what it reminded some of.
1. A truck bomb detonates and It felt like an airplane hit the building Bruce Pomper, eyewitness Source: BBC.
It is also interesting to note that "Most of those who died are believed to have been crushed by the station ceiling." not apparently from the blast effects associated with the truck bomb.
Yet when a similar explosion takes place in the basement that reminded others of the 1993 truck bomb and indeed caused damage that reminded them of a truck bomb, instead of accepting the most logical excuse, a truck bomb, the implausibility of a jet fuel explosion is offered with only assumptions to support that theory.

Why is everyone so resistant to a truck bomb in the basement anyway? Yet accept without question and without proof, jet fuel.

You shouldn't have any problems answering these questions in regards to the jet fuel phenomena. Or did you avoid them?

1. Simply trace the route and the amount of the jet fuel, in liquid or fireball form from the initial impact to the basement areas and still account for the survivors located within the elevators.

2. Determine how the fireball, if that is what you truly think caused the damage in the basement areas, had enough energy to cause the local destruction witnessed at impact, and yet not destroy the shafts on the way down to the basement, and then have the energy to destroy parts of the basement areas underneath both towers.

3. Explain how people closest to impact survived the initial blast and jet fuel explosion and then explain how parts of the basement's multiple levels, furthest away from impact, did not. Was there more energy released after impact than during the impact?

4. List the accounts of survivors who witnessed pools, puddles, streams, or large drops of jet fuel streaming down the shafts and/or puddling in the area.

5. Find witnesses who were not later TOLD what had happened. I point this out as Gravy uses Ed's account but he, like many if not all of the people in the basement, were later TOLD what happened.

6. And what about Jenny Carr's audio record of the day? Can you explain that loud sound just prior to the apparent impact of the plane?

Quote:
Rmackey-Let's see some numbers. And as you assemble those, you might want to keep in mind that, in terms of energy content, jet fuel is roughly four to ten times higher than explosives, pound for pound. The amount of fuel draining into the lower structure, estimated by NIST, is roughly 24,000 pounds in each Tower. In other words, you've just made an argument that there must have been at least 100,000 pounds of explosives in each basement.
Got you.
Hey we agree on something!! Let's see some numbers in support of the jet fuel excuse. I've been looking for years for that and I can't seem to find any.
First, before I accept this information, can you source the 24,000 pounds of fuel from the NIST report.
Second, what class of explosives are you referring to?
Third, can you provide the necessary numbers to prove jet fuel caused the amount of damage in the basement levels?

Fourth, why are you using the energy equivalent of remaining jet fuel after the impact to prove 100,000 pounds of explosives in each basement had to be used? You would be better off to show the process and data behind the jet fuel to prove it caused the destruction witnessed.

If you sincerely believe in the jet fuel excuse then it should be easy to answer the following questions:
1. Can you source the amount in pounds of jet fuel in each tower after the initial impact and explosion?

2. Second, can your provide the fuel/air ratio necessary for the explosion as well as blast pressure data?

3. Third, can you provide the calculations supporting the official story that jet fuel fireball caused the damage in the basement? You know those energy
numbers NIST didn't provide in their report.

4. Fourth, can you provide any witnesses who saw the amount of jet fuel you claimed did or could do the damage in the multiple levels of the basement?


Quote:
BenBurch Plus I don't think he has any way to QUANTIFY the damage to the basements in the first place, so there is no possibility of him coming up with a number that means anything.
Yet debunkers accept as fact the jet fuel excuse without anyway to quantify the damage to the basement with numbers that mean anything despite the historical record of terrorists, the FBI's working theory, the eyewitness descriptions, etc, etc.! Go figure!
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Old 27th November 2007, 01:27 PM   #30
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Swing;
How do you explain the lack of blast injures to the victims. That seems to be a pesky inconsistency to explosives.
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Old 27th November 2007, 01:46 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Swing;
How do you explain the lack of blast injures to the victims. That seems to be a pesky inconsistency to explosives.
That raises an interesting question. What's the typical speed of a blast wave (probably not the correct technical term) from the detonation of explosives as compared to the speed of a backdraft?
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Old 27th November 2007, 01:56 PM   #32
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Corsair:

Depends on the explosive used. If you take C-4 or Compound B, your detonation speed is about 24000fps (IIRC). Cratering charges, such as an ANFO mixture, tend to be about 18000 to 20000fps.

These number are from memory, but should be fairly close. I'll see if I can refine them for you.
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
Depends on the explosive used. If you take C-4 or Compound B, your detonation speed is about 24000fps (IIRC). Cratering charges, such as an ANFO mixture, tend to be about 18000 to 20000fps.
Thanks. It was my general impression that the blast wave from explosives was in the tens of thousands of feet per second range.

Now we just need the other half, how fast a backdraft typically moves...
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:12 PM   #34
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IN regards to fuel, try looking at this site
Quote:
Most vapor cloud explosions are deflagrations, not detonations. Flame speed of a deflagration is subsonic, with flame speed increasing in restricted areas and decreasing in open areas.
So, subsonic would mean slower than about 1000fps. That's assuming a jet fuel ignition (and I doubt conditions would have been perfect for a true detonation). The above link also gives some equations to determine the distance to a 1 psi overpressure (for comparison, TNT gives as much as 4000psi overpressure).

I'd suspect strongly that a backdraft would also be subsonic, and have similar attributes to a fuel vapor deflagration.
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:27 PM   #35
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There was no damage to the floors in the basements or parking levels. There were no persistant car fires in the garages. That rules out bombs in the garages. The most badly-burned victims were in elevators or near them. Doors on elevators were blown outward. It had to have been from something that originated in the elevators.

Blast damage on floors other than the basements are attributable to the fact that not all elevators ran more than a third of the height of the bulidngs, but many terminated on sky lobby flloors.

That most of the injuries were from moving walls and fire, it is obvious that the blast was a rather soft one, more consistant with a backdraft than with HE. No one describes having their eardrums broken by the blast, also inconsistant with HE.

Nothing in any report is consistant with the detonation of HE in the basements.
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:29 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
IN regards to fuel, try looking at this site


So, subsonic would mean slower than about 1000fps. That's assuming a jet fuel ignition (and I doubt conditions would have been perfect for a true detonation). The above link also gives some equations to determine the distance to a 1 psi overpressure (for comparison, TNT gives as much as 4000psi overpressure).

I'd suspect strongly that a backdraft would also be subsonic, and have similar attributes to a fuel vapor deflagration.
Yes but in the movies all explosions are orangy fuel delfagrations...so how do you expect a truther to tell the difference.
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:32 PM   #37
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leftysergeant:

I agree, but would like to point out that backdraft and jet fuel conflagration would share many of the same characteristics...I don't want to see us lock inot a backdraft theory and ignore the fuel that was a possibility, as well. Fuel conflagration woudl also generate a "softer" pressure wave: they tend to produce a lower total pressure than explosives but over a longer duration...which is why they are good at things like knocking down light walls and similar structures.

The reports are not consistent with HE, either in terms of the material damage or the casualties. It is consistent with a backdraft type scenario or a fuel conflagration. Personally, I find the fuel conflagration more likely by applying Occam (we know fuel was there and it doesn't involve any additional assumptions about pressures or oxygen levels or similar). Of course, new evidence could change my mind
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:32 PM   #38
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Had explosives been used in the quantity Swanger would have them used in, Rodriguez would have been a smear of protoplasm and the towers would have fallen pretty much instantly. This is ALMOST what happened in 1993, where it stove in floor after floor of subbasement.
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:35 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
Yes but in the movies all explosions are orangy fuel delfagrations...so how do you expect a truther to tell the difference.
[troother mode]
Too shay!!
[/troother mode]

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Old 27th November 2007, 02:51 PM   #40
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"6. And what about Jenny Carr's audio record of the day? Can you explain that loud sound just prior to the apparent impact of the plane?"

Cripes, you mention this all the time, but would it kill you to actually you know, give us a link to it?
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