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Old 22nd May 2008, 05:33 PM   #241
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What I've asked multiple times is for you to actually provide evidence to support your claims. You keep referring to this testimony as evidence. Now all you have to do is provide it.

If testimony exists to support your "magic fireball" theory, please provide quotes and links to said testimony.
Bump for thewholesoul.
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Old 22nd May 2008, 06:33 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
A major problem for your new modified theory is revealed by the following quote:
(NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p32 PDF) “We have two elevators serving only particular floors, beginning from basement level 1, Car 6 and 7. Though their lowest elevator opening was in basement level 1, their shafts went as deep as basement level 4”.

Page 32 pdf of NCSTAR 1-7 is "intentionally left blank" and the numbered page 32 of the document (page 70 pdf) does not contain the above quote. Can you please source this quote?
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Old 22nd May 2008, 08:41 PM   #243
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we all make mistakes LASHL

Originally Posted by LashL View Post
Page 32 pdf of NCSTAR 1-7 is "intentionally left blank" and the numbered page 32 of the document (page 70 pdf) does not contain the above quote. Can you please source this quote?
your right my friend i slipped up

the NIST quote contains the following information

Quote:
In addition to the passenger elevators, there were seven freight elevators in each tower; most served a particular zone, while Car 50 served every floor.
• Car #5: B1-5, 6, 9-40, 44
Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107 (Dual-use express, see below)
[…]
There were two express elevators (#6 and #7) to Windows on the World (and related conference rooms and banquet facilities) in WTC 1 and two to the observation deck in WTC 2. There were five local elevators in each building: three that brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby, one that ran between floors 106 and 110, and one that ran between floors 43 and 44, serving the cafeteria from the skylobby. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation requirements.
from this information and floorplans of shaft continuity seen here: http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts and here http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/819...blevelswg5.jpg we can conclude that the shft of 6 and 7 did not pass beyond B-4.

from Page 32 pdf of NCSTAR 1-7 outlined above we learn that 6 and 7 were express elevators and that they did not serve the basement levels meaning that there was no doorways.

so my mistake was i posting my conclusion based from the NIST pages i quoted. my mistake and i apologise.



but getting back on theme

you care to tell me how a fireball or jet fuel could pass car 50 in less than 15 seconds?

peace
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Old 22nd May 2008, 08:52 PM   #244
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Debunkers are NEVER wrong

Originally Posted by Drs_Res View Post
Seems to me that the "explosions" in the basement would have been the shock wave from the plane impact traveling through the structure and to the foundation of the building.
do you think that the shock wave generated from the impact would increase or decrease over time and distance from the impact zone? if you figure out this much then you should realise the absurdity of your suggestion.

Originally Posted by Drs_Res View Post
You would hear the impact from above later. The fireball would also occur later as well.
look up the testimony of Mike McQuaid

Originally Posted by Drs_Res View Post
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
your right my debunking friend just keep posting it
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Old 22nd May 2008, 08:57 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney View Post
when talking about fireballs in elevator shafts, pls also mention the elevatorshaft number so we can see if it was possible. cause most elevator shafts did not run from sublevels or basement till top or impact area.
sure why would they do that when they cant even explain shaft to shaft transfer of jet fuel.

debunkers prefer to keep it nice and vague and obscure

i am still waiting for a rational response. i debunked fireball down freight shaft and express shaft. i debunked jet fuel down freight shaft. debunkers have no explanation left, or if they do i am waiting for it.

if they are unable to provide a rational explanation or repsonse to my debunking i am moving on to debate tower 7.
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Old 22nd May 2008, 09:13 PM   #246
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i shot the sheriff

Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Soul:
What do you plan to do with your "smoking gun"?
the inability of anyone in this forum to counter it is sufficient for me

peace
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Old 22nd May 2008, 09:24 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
What a tour de force in word twisting far, far beyond what your sources warrant, thewholesoul. I'll see if I get around to comment on some of it during the weekend. But that I will only do for the benefit of the lurkers and new readers who might stumble across this thread in the future.
calling the kettle black i see.

you butchered the testimony of Marlene Cruz
- you ignored the sequence of events
- you conflated falling debris with explosions
- you even inserted and bolded the word "oil" which she never even said http://911stories.googlepages.com/in...ccounts%2Clobb

so i dont think you are in the position to lecture me on word twisting when you practically invent your own!!

when you respond my friend
- just quote me the sentence from NIST where it states that the express
elevator had doorways below B-1.
- show a video of a fireball travelling through path of most resistence
- quote me some testimony of a fireball coming from express shaft below B-1

peace
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Old 22nd May 2008, 09:40 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
from this information and floorplans of shaft continuity seen here: http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts and here http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/819...blevelswg5.jpg we can conclude that the shft of 6 and 7 did not pass beyond B-4.

from Page 32 pdf of NCSTAR 1-7 outlined above we learn that 6 and 7 were express elevators and that they did not serve the basement levels meaning that there was no doorways.
Again, page 32 pdf is "intentionally left blank" and page 70 (numbered 32 in the actual document) does not say that. You might have meant to reference page 72 pdf (p. 34 in the document) but it also does not say that.

In any event, I do not think that you can conclude that there were no doorways on the sub basement levels to the 6 and 7 hoistways. I think that it's fair enough to conclude that there were no elevator exit doors on those floors which were not served by those particular elevators, but I don't think that you can conclude that there were no man doors for access to the bottom of the hoistways and to the elevator pits.


Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
so my mistake was i posting my conclusion based from the NIST pages i quoted. my mistake and i apologise.

No worries.



Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
but getting back on theme

you care to tell me how a fireball or jet fuel could pass car 50 in less than 15 seconds?

While I do not see any impediment to fireballs and/or jet fuel doing so, where does the 15 second time frame come from?
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Old 22nd May 2008, 09:47 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What I've asked multiple times is for you to actually provide evidence to support your claims. You keep referring to this testimony as evidence. Now all you have to do is provide it.

If testimony exists to support your "magic fireball" theory, please provide quotes and links to said testimony.

Bump for thewholesoul.
look man i was going to ignore you but i am not that kind of person.

so i will try once again to explain your misunderstanding.

the first report of a fireball in descending freight elevator shaft towards basement is this “Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed." this testimony was from arturo Griffith

now i know we both agree that this event actually happened.

but then you say this "If testimony exists to support your "magic fireball" theory, please provide quotes and links to said testimony"

you will find all the quotes and testimony here http://911stories.googlepages.com/in...ccounts%2Clobb

do you know why i call it the magic fireball theory? i call it that because i beleive that it doesnt exist. now because it doesnt exist you will not find any testimony of the "magic fireball" i.e. the fireball before the one mentioned above.

strangely you think that that counts for debunking me? when it is the offical story that advocates the "magic fireball" theory - NOT ME.

now what you do find in the testimony is references to explosions and "strcutrual damage". the official story claims that this damage was caused by a fireball. i argue that this damage was not caused by a fireball that this damage was done BEFORE the fireball menationed above in griffith's testimony reached the basement.

i hope that was clear enough my friend

but seriously if you ask the same question again i might not respond.

peace
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Old 22nd May 2008, 09:57 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
sure why would they do that when they cant even explain shaft to shaft transfer of jet fuel.
I think that where you're going astray here is that you seem to think that each hoistway was in a separate "shaft" but they were not. This was discussed several pages ago. You would probably benefit from talking to people well versed on elevator operations in high rise buildings, and you would certainly benefit from talking to members of specialized high rise fire rescue teams, who can explain these things to you. You might also consider talking to elevator maintenance personnel in high rise buildings as they are also well versed in the differences between hoistways and "shafts" and can easily explain to you why you are wrong in your assumptions.


Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
i debunked fireball down freight shaft and express shaft. i debunked jet fuel down freight shaft.
No, you have done no such thing. All you have done, in my view, is exhibit your lack of knowledge about elevator cars and their mechanics, high rise buildings, hoistways, and shafts.


Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
if they are unable to provide a rational explanation or repsonse to my debunking i am moving on to debate tower 7.
It is poor form to blame others for your own lack of knowledge and your own failure of comprehension.

Last edited by LashL; 22nd May 2008 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 22nd May 2008, 10:38 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by LashL View Post
In any event, I do not think that you can conclude that there were no doorways on the sub basement levels to the 6 and 7 hoistways. I think that it's fair enough to conclude that there were no elevator exit doors on those floors which were not served by those particular elevators, but I don't think that you can conclude that there were no man doors for access to the bottom of the hoistways and to the elevator pits.
its a valid point.

all i have is floorplans of shaft continuity that end in B4 for 6 and 7 here http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/4...figure4fh2.jpg.

and the quote from NIST that states that
Quote:
There were five local elevators in each building: three brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby, one that ran between floors 106 and 110, and one that ran between 43 and 44 (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p32 – PDF)
nowhere in NIST does it state that car 6 and 7 served sub basement floors. B1 is the lowest doorway.

however perhaps it had man doors to access the bottom of hoist way? perhaps not. your point is reasonable but i think you will need to provide more evidence.

if it is the case then my argumnet against norseman is admittedly weakened
but not refuted as i have other lines i could use. for instance i would imagine the man door, if any, would be located at B4. so his fireball still had to blast down shaft wall at b2 and thus acting contrary to how fireballs behave. and there is no testimony of people in b4 reporting a fireball coming through a man door.

Originally Posted by LashL View Post
While I do not see any impediment to fireballs and/or jet fuel doing so, where does the 15 second time frame come from?
i thoroughly debunked the magic fireball theory and the jet fuel theory.

the 15 seconds is a guestimate: we know that car 50 ascended for approx 7 seconds from B2. when the cables were cut it went into free fall for a few seconds. then the emergency breaks were applied which would naturally slow the elevator down until it finally stopped at B1-2. in fact 15 seconds is probably an overstatement. it could well have taken a lot less someting like 7 seconds?


the problem for you to explain is how jet fuel could travel down 90+floors to b1 quicker than car 50. i think its impossible. and i think when you think about it you will think the same as me
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Old 22nd May 2008, 11:04 PM   #252
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lashl go debunk my post #237 - i dare you

Originally Posted by LashL View Post
I think that where you're going astray here is that you seem to think that each hoistway was in a separate "shaft" but they were not. This was discussed several pages ago. You would probably benefit from talking to people well versed on elevator operations in high rise buildings, and you would certainly benefit from talking to members of specialized high rise fire rescue teams, who can explain these things to you. You might also consider talking to elevator maintenance personnel in high rise buildings as they are also well versed in the differences between hoistways and "shafts" and can easily explain to you why you are wrong in your assumptions.
well since you talked with all these experts perhaps you can easily explain why i am wrong. specifically address my post 207 but i have others in this thread on shaft to shaft transfer of jet fuel.

with respect however your above rant is not an argumnet. your basically saying go talk to some experts and your falsly assuming of course, that they will agree with you!

look i can read floor plans and the shafts did not vertically go from basemnt to ceiling. this means that jet fuel had to pass horizontally at some point. go read my post #207 and if your interested in serious debate then address the points i made as opposed to "go talk to the experts" approach.

o yes, and one more thing, I CAN READ.

Quote:
at the top of of each elevator bank, the machinery to lift the cabs occupied the next higher floor. from the next higher floor up to the bottom of the next elevator bank, there was no need for an elevator shaft" NIST NCSTAR 1-7 p32 PDF.
now ask yourself, what if people below this area with no shaft were incinerated from a fireball. how would you explain that to their family members? the official story hinges on fireballs travelling down shafts!!!!!! do you see the problem i have with acceoting the official story?

Originally Posted by LashL View Post
No, you have done no such thing. All you have done, in my view, is exhibit your lack of knowledge about elevator cars and their mechanics, high rise buildings, hoistways, and shafts.
so with all your knowledge on the subject why dont YOU go read my post#237 and try and debunk it. i BET a shiney penny you cant.


Originally Posted by LashL View Post
It is poor form to blame others for your own lack of knowledge and your own failure of comprehension.
what sort of rubbish are you talking?

listen this a forum for rational discourse not silly baseless conjecture. you already made that point 3 or more times in this one post alone.

since you obviously dont lack any knowledge why dont you go ahead read my post #237 and then come back to me champ.

until then your wasting my time and yours with these non productive opinions
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Old 23rd May 2008, 03:28 AM   #253
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afaik only 3 elevator shaft runned from basement to impactzone.
and a jetfuel fireball is prolly not powerfull enough to destroy the basement like it was destroyed.

but the "debunkers" dont even go take a look at the blueprints. they just make stuff up and declare it a fact....

once again the "debunkers" claims dont have to be backedu by anything, when they specualte and make up things, they consider it hard facts.

laughable.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 11:16 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
do you know why i call it the magic fireball theory? i call it that because i beleive that it doesnt exist. now because it doesnt exist you will not find any testimony of the "magic fireball" i.e. the fireball before the one mentioned above.
I fully understand your use of the term "magic fireball theory" and was merely using it as shorthand to describe the phenomenon you claim occurred (i.e. structural damage etc. to the basement levels that preceded the arrival of the fireball of which you have acknowledged the existence).

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
now what you do find in the testimony is references to explosions and "strcutrual damage". the official story claims that this damage was caused by a fireball. i argue that this damage was not caused by a fireball that this damage was done BEFORE the fireball menationed above in griffith's testimony reached the basement.
And this is exactly what I want proof of. You keep making this argument and treat it like it's accepted fact. You provide no evidence to back it up (i.e. the witness testimony you keep claiming supports it).

I see that you provided a link to a very long page of witness testimony and expect that to qualify. I'm sorry, but that is basically a step above the old Truther tactic of telling me to "do my research". Unacceptable.

I provided you with specific quotes with links to their original sources to bolster my arguments. I expect no less from you.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 01:52 PM   #255
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Correction of Transcription

Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
This is what Marlene Cruz, who was in the elevator with Arturo Griffith, said in an interview with NBC on September 13th 2001 from the hospital:
Quote:
...all of a sudden I heard that explosion and the doors blew and the elevator dropped and there was smoke and fire, water, oil all over the place, debris, concrete, you name it just fell on top of us...
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

The interview with Marlene Cruz starts at 3:25 into the video.
The word oil should not be in the above quote, as pointed out by thewholesoule. This should be evident for everyone listening to the interview. The correct quote should therefore read:
Quote:
...all of a sudden I heard that explosion and the doors blew and the elevator dropped and there was smoke and fire, water all over the place, debris, concrete, you name it just fell on top of us...
When I listened through the interview before I was going to transcribe the quote, I was sure she said "oil", while what she actually said was "all", which has a pronunciation close to the word "oil". But since we are discussing burning jet fuel here, it seemed quiet reasonable that she should mention "oil". But that was quit simply my mind jumping to conclusions. Unfortunately the belief that she said "oil" stuck, even though I listened through the interview several times to make sure that my transcription was correct, though I listened mostly to it in short bits as I transcribed it. It sure sounded right every time.

Here is the transcription Mark Roberts did, just to show that I did my own transcription.
Quote:
All of a sudden I heard that explosion, and the doors blew, and the elevator dropped, and there was smoke, and fire, and water all over the place. Debris, concrete: you name it, just fell on top of us.
As the keen reader should notice, Mark Roberts has among other details used a different punctuation in his quote than I did. But I notice that even Mark has put in a word she never said, the bolded "and" before "water". Surly another trick of the mind since it looks very reasonable that there should be an "and" there, though she never said it. But this is of course an insignificant mistake compared with my mistake.

I have written many posts where I have read through the post several times before posting, just to discover after posting mistakes and missing words. And every time I read through the post my brain automatically filled in the blanks.

So let this just be a minor illustration of the main point of the New York times article I linked in my last post. Here it is again:
New York Times: Ideas & Trends; For Air Crash Detectives, Seeing Isn't Believing
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Old 23rd May 2008, 03:12 PM   #256
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All the backdraft videos show atleast some sign of smoke, fire, soot etc.

Minutes after the first impact, firefighters arrive at the north tower lobby. The glass windows appear blown out, and the marble wall coverings blown off.
But interestingly no signs of smoke, fire, soot etc were visible in the lobby, unlike the backdraft videos.

Interesting!

Source-
Go to Google videos type - "9/11: North Tower lobby blown out"
Since I cant link the url yet.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 03:15 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Russ_Dalton View Post
All the backdraft videos show atleast some sign of smoke, fire, soot etc.

Minutes after the first impact, firefighters arrive at the north tower lobby. The glass windows appear blown out, and the marble wall coverings blown off.
But interestingly no signs of smoke, fire, soot etc were visible in the lobby, unlike the backdraft videos.

Interesting!

Source-
Go to Google videos type - "9/11: North Tower lobby blown out"
Since I cant link the url yet.
Welcome.

AND? Do you have something to add?
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Old 23rd May 2008, 04:23 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Russ_Dalton View Post
All the backdraft videos show atleast some sign of smoke, fire, soot etc.

Minutes after the first impact, firefighters arrive at the north tower lobby. The glass windows appear blown out, and the marble wall coverings blown off.
But interestingly no signs of smoke, fire, soot etc were visible in the lobby, unlike the backdraft videos.

Interesting!

Source-
Go to Google videos type - "9/11: North Tower lobby blown out"
Since I cant link the url yet.
Welcome to the forum.

But I have to point out that you are ignoring countless of witness accounts of smoke and fire in the Lobby.

And this screen shot was posted by hard lines last year:
Originally Posted by hard lines View Post
Here we see a poor quality screenshot taken from the east of the core, looking west.
It shows the confined area between the elevator banks inside the core of the WTC 1 lobby. Note the black sooted roof and walls a bit down the hallway. Also note the burned signpost standing just to the right of the turnstiles. The two elevator shafts of cars #50, #6 and #7 leading all the way up to the impact zone had their exit doors in the middle of this area.

ETA
Note that I do not exactly agree with the conclusions hard lines made in his post.

You will find numerous witness accounts here:
http://911stories.googlepages.com/in...ccounts%2Clobb

Last edited by Norseman; 23rd May 2008 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 05:22 PM   #259
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Everyone knows they places bombs in the lower floors which served no other purpose then to create an explosion effect that might possibly foil the entire plot by exploding at the time of impact but causing absolutely no structural damage and contributing in no way to the collapse of the building.

How does that not make sense?
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Old 23rd May 2008, 06:36 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And this is exactly what I want proof of. You keep making this argument and treat it like it's accepted fact. You provide no evidence to back it up (i.e. the witness testimony you keep claiming supports it).

I see that you provided a link to a very long page of witness testimony and expect that to qualify. I'm sorry, but that is basically a step above the old Truther tactic of telling me to "do my research". Unacceptable.

I provided you with specific quotes with links to their original sources to bolster my arguments. I expect no less from you.
go to the testimony of arturo griffith and explain what caused the thick white smoke he saw before the fireball. ask yourself what caused those explosions he was refering to? ask yourself what caused the structural damage to the elevator door?

go to felipe davids testimony. ask yourself what burned him and what caused the explosion he heard below

go to philip morelli's testimony. ask yourself what caused the explosion that threw him to the c¡ground and caused the walls to shaking and breaking up?

if your read their testimony you will have you proof of damage done to the basement before the fireball arrived.

peace
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Old 23rd May 2008, 06:54 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
go to the testimony of arturo griffith and explain what caused the thick white smoke he saw before the fireball. ask yourself what caused those explosions he was refering to? ask yourself what caused the structural damage to the elevator door?
I'm not an expert, but if I were to guess, I would say that the big explosion at the top of the elevator shaft did several things:

1. Pushed fire, smoke, fuel, and super-heated air into the shaft
2. Used up all the oxygen in the shaft
3. Found the path of least resistance to relieve the pressure in the shaft, which would most likely be an elevator door
4. Once it found this path, it also found a new oxygen supply, starting a new fire.

As I said, I'm not an expert. But it seems much more likely than a conspiracy to plant explosives in the basement for no apparent benefit.

Quote:
go to felipe davids testimony. ask yourself what burned him and what caused the explosion he heard below
Fire burned him. Explosions don't so much burn people as they blow pieces off.

Quote:
go to philip morelli's testimony. ask yourself what caused the explosion that threw him to the c¡ground and caused the walls to shaking and breaking up?
A PLANE RAN INTO THE BUILDING. Perhaps you saw it on television?

Quote:
if your read their testimony you will have you proof of damage done to the basement before the fireball arrived.

peace
Surprisingly, not all eyewitness testimony is 100% accurate.

What was the purpose of the explosives in the basement, since the collapse didn't begin there?
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Old 23rd May 2008, 06:58 PM   #262
Jonnyclueless
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
go to the testimony of arturo griffith and explain what caused the thick white smoke he saw before the fireball. ask yourself what caused those explosions he was refering to? ask yourself what caused the structural damage to the elevator door?

go to felipe davids testimony. ask yourself what burned him and what caused the explosion he heard below

go to philip morelli's testimony. ask yourself what caused the explosion that threw him to the c¡ground and caused the walls to shaking and breaking up?

if your read their testimony you will have you proof of damage done to the basement before the fireball arrived.

peace

No no, we want YOUR explanation. YOU tell us what caused it.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 07:16 PM   #263
thewholesoul
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hey aggle

i appreciate your post. but you are wrong go to my post#237 it debunks both the fireball and jet fuel hypothesis and ALL your explanations below. a bold statement i know so go prove me wrong - tackle post #237

i just want to address one explanation.

you say that Morelli was thrown to the ground from the impact of a plane 90+ floors above!!

if your going to address post 237 with logic you will face a lot of difficulties.

you know that people on the 91st floor didnt even feel the imapct 2 floors above? and your saying that Morelli 90+ floors below the imapct was thrown to the ground.

to make matters worse you use CAP LOCKS to express your absurdity

perhaps you watch too much television my friend?


where is the rebuttal to post 237 from anyone in this room

DGM? missing in action
Johnny Karate? missing in action
Gumboot? a.w.o.l
lashl? missing in action
jonnyclueness?
aggle-rithem?

LETS HAVE IT DEBUNKERS I PROVED YOUR HYPOTHESIS IMPOSSIBLE ARE YOU GOING TO LIE DOWN AND IGNORE IT?

IS THERE NO-ONE IN THIS ROOM THAT CAN CHALLENGE POST 237?

peace

Last edited by thewholesoul; 23rd May 2008 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 07:20 PM   #264
Jonnyclueless
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Still waiting for thewholesoul's explanation....

And of course ignoring that the claims from post 237 are simply incorrect.

Last edited by Jonnyclueless; 23rd May 2008 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 07:29 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
go to the testimony of arturo griffith and explain what caused the thick white smoke he saw before the fireball. ask yourself what caused those explosions he was refering to? ask yourself what caused the structural damage to the elevator door?

go to felipe davids testimony. ask yourself what burned him and what caused the explosion he heard below

go to philip morelli's testimony. ask yourself what caused the explosion that threw him to the c¡ground and caused the walls to shaking and breaking up?

if your read their testimony you will have you proof of damage done to the basement before the fireball arrived.

peace
Why is it so difficult for you to provide an actual sourced quote?

I'm not about to slog through witness testimonies to find comments that support your claims.

So once again, please provide evidence that there was damage, explosions, etc. in the basement levels caused by the "magic fireball" prior to the arrival of the actual fireball.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 07:33 PM   #266
thewholesoul
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Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless View Post
No no, we want YOUR explanation. YOU tell us what caused it.
dear jonny

i dont give a damn if the explosion in the basement was caused my penguins dressed up in monkey suits.

i PROVED THAT THE OFFICIAL HYPOTHESIS IS IMPOSSIBLE

go do something useful, go and debunk post 237

unless that is your just another toothless debunker gone a.w.o.l
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Old 23rd May 2008, 07:36 PM   #267
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debunking is easy: just say you're "simply incorrect"

Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless View Post
Still waiting for thewholesoul's explanation....

And of course ignoring that the claims from post 237 are simply incorrect.
finally we got a bite

ok which claims are wrong and why.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 07:49 PM   #268
thewholesoul
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Why is it so difficult for you to provide an actual sourced quote?

I'm not about to slog through witness testimonies to find comments that support your claims.

So once again, please provide evidence that there was damage, explosions, etc. in the basement levels caused by the "magic fireball" prior to the arrival of the actual fireball.
to quote star trek - "are you out of your fulcan mind"

listen are not embarressed yet asking the same worn out question over and over and over and over and over again? i have answered you every time.

for the very last time read the testimony of arturo griffith, felipe david, and philip morelli

if, or should i say when, you ask the same question again i do apologise in advance because i will not be responding.

peace
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Old 23rd May 2008, 07:54 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
when you respond my friend
- just quote me the sentence from NIST where it states that the express
elevator had doorways below B-1.
- show a video of a fireball travelling through path of most resistence
- quote me some testimony of a fireball coming from express shaft below B-1
Here it is thewholesoul, the doorway into the pit of the elevator shaft that contained the elevator cars #6 and #7 down on B4.


(Note to new readers. B4 = Sub-Level #3, while B1 is labeled Service Level in the blueprints)

The red arrows and the numbers have been put in by me to indicate the shaft that contained the hoistway for car #50 and the shaft that contained the hoistways for car #6 and #7. Yes they shared the shaft.

A complete blueprint is hosted on the conspiracy theory site 9-11 Resarch here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evid...ans/table.html
Chose the one labeled: "SubLevels3_4_5CorePlan"

That door has been there every time I have looked at that blueprint since I became aware of them nearly a year ago. I note that you have posted a link to a crop from the same blueprint in your post #243:
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
from this information and floorplans of shaft continuity seen here: http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts and here http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/819...blevelswg5.jpg we can conclude that the shft of 6 and 7 did not pass beyond B-4.
Phillip Morelli says he was walking by the main freight car when he was thrown to the floor. Note that he would be close to both the shaft of the #50 car and the shaft of cars #6 and #7. As I have tried to indicate to you earlier, there must have been a lot of heavy stuff coming down from the impact zone. That stuff would not exactly be noiseless when it hit the bottom the elevator shafts, or the car with Arturo Griffith og Marlene Cruz for that matter.

Things like:
  • Steel beams
  • Aircraft parts
  • Broken gypsum plates
  • Bodies
  • Concrete from the floors in the impact zone
  • Elevator counterweights
  • Etc.............

The counterweights would normally have a weight equal to the elevator car plus 40-50% of the elevator capacity. In other words we are talking about several thousand pounds here for each elevator. This a description of the damage caused by one of the counterweights falling into the pit of the Empire State Building elevator shafts after a B-25 bomber crashed into the building on July 28th 1945:
Quote:
The counterweight (balancing weight) was at about the 50th floor when the cables were cut. Over 10,000 lbs of iron started down. The two safety cables, also cut, struck the pit buffer block, went through 12" of concrete, shearing thirty 1" rivets; two 15" channels imbedded in concrete. (The column was only five feet away from the buffer block, the buffer piston and the weight oil buffer.) A steel rod -- 4" and about nine feet long -- went right through the concrete, broke a water main pipe, flooded the sub-basement, went through an 8" solid brick wall and landed in a storeroom in the sub-basement.
Source: http://www.elevator-world.com/magazi...1/9603-002.htm

It is quiet likely that the impact of for instance the counterweights could have destroyed the enclosure walls of the express elevator shaft opposite the freight elevator shaft down on B-4.

The fact is that the impact of objects from the aircraft crash zone is a very, very plausible and reasonable explanation of what the witnesses down in the basement levels experienced before the arrival of the jet fuel fireball. It was the jet fuel deflagration that caused all the damage down on B4, apart from any damage caused by falling objects inside the elevator shafts. This is well supported by all the available information.

So when people described the impact of bodies as explosions, what do you think that the impact of counterweights, concrete, steel beams and so on would sound like thewholesoul:
Quote:
Also, while I was there in the lobby, the guy
who was looking up when the bodies were jumping, the
bodies would jump and you'd hear a huge explosion and
you'd see just blood spatter on the windows.
Source: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110420.PDF

All the things falling down the elevator shafts would hit the basement levels within 10 seconds after the aircraft crashed into the building. There is no need for any "magic fireball" or bombs to explain what happened before the jet fuel fireball arrived.

Here is a couple of another witness accounts from B4:
Quote:
B4 Level, Hursley Lever: "I was in the B-4 level. ... I heard a bomb. So, I says, 'Probably a transformer again blew up.' So I step back, finish what I had to finish, and I started towards the door again. And there came a big blast with a big ball of fire. And that's when I got hit. It hit me right back down on the ground and I realized my ankle was shattered."
Quote:
B4 level
In the 2002 taped statement, (Jose) Sanchez recalls, at the same time Rodriguez and the others heard the explosion, being in a small sub-level 4 workshop with another man who he only knew by the name of Chino when, out of nowhere, the blast sounded as the two men were cutting a piece of metal.

“It sounded like a bomb and the lights went on and off,” said Sanchez in the tape recording. “We started to walk to the exit and a huge ball of fire went through the freight elevator. The hot air from the ball of fire dropped Chino to the floor and my hair got burned,” said Sanchez in the tape recording. “The room then got full of smoke and I remember saying out loud ‘I believe it was a bomb that blew up inside the building.
For source of both accounts see:
http://911stories.googlepages.com/in...ccounts%2Clobb

Note the sequence of events here. First something that sounded like an explosion but no fire or destruction. Then a pause where they did something else. And finely the arrival of the fireball. This is quiet consistent with the scenario I described above. These guys were most likely working away from the elevator shafts, while Phillip Morelli walking by the freight elevator would have experienced this a bit differently.

Last edited by Norseman; 23rd May 2008 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Edited for clarity and missing link
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Old 23rd May 2008, 08:03 PM   #270
Jonnyclueless
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
finally we got a bite

ok which claims are wrong and why.

No no no, first you have to offer an explanation. What's the matter? You can['t do it? Did you go AWOL too? You can't simply dismiss others speculation without making your own, that's not research, that's being a troll. So please tell us what happened and stop copping out.

THEN I might tell you why you are wrong in your assumptions. Also, please tell us which elevators exactly are being referred to and which towers that each one is in.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 08:06 PM   #271
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Ah damn. Norseman did it. I was hoping to milk it, but it's just as well. I would still like to see the troll provide a better explanation. He knows he can't do it and doing so would make him look like the fool he thinks he isn't being seen as.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 08:34 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
for the very last time read the testimony of arturo griffith, felipe david, and philip morelli
Why should I do the work for you? You made the claim, you support it with sourced quotes. Telling me to "read the testimonies" is a cop out. I want to see the actual quotes from these witnesses that support your claims.

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
if, or should i say when, you ask the same question again i do apologise in advance because i will not be responding.
Your concession is noted. If you couldn't support your argument with evidence, you should have just said so to begin with and saved us both a lot of time.
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Old 23rd May 2008, 08:37 PM   #273
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great post norseman

Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless View Post
Ah damn. Norseman did it. I was hoping to milk it, but it's just as well. I would still like to see the troll provide a better explanation. He knows he can't do it and doing so would make him look like the fool he thinks he isn't being seen as.
jonny you were going to do jack .... you can climb off norsemans back now.

full credit to norseman, it was a great post.

but its by no means bullet proof.

peace
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Old 23rd May 2008, 09:39 PM   #274
Jonnyclueless
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
jonny you were going to do jack .... you can climb off norsemans back now.

full credit to norseman, it was a great post.

but its by no means bullet proof.

peace
Who are you kidding? It's your turn kid. It's now time for you to do what you request of everyone else. Please provide us with a plausible explanation. What's the problem kid? You can't do it can you? You don't mind trolling, but when it comes to doing the same thing, you are AWOL. Pathetic.

Your assumptions that you make which are the basis for you making these childish claims of impossibility are of course much MUCH less bullet proof. Plus you failed to answer the questions which are important to your assumptions.

So are you going to be an adult, or are you going to continue trolling?
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Old 23rd May 2008, 11:37 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
B1 is the lowest doorway.
I don't think that's correct. As I said above, it is reasonable to conclude that there were no elevator exit doors on floors that elevators did not serve, although there were most likely man doors for access to the shafts even on floors that the elevators did not serve. But the floor plans indicate that 6, 7 and 50 did have doors below B1.

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
perhaps it had man doors to access the bottom of hoist way? perhaps not. your point is reasonable but i think you will need to provide more evidence.
My information on this comes from discussions with experts in elevator design, repair, and maintenance, as well as from a FDNY battalion commander with specific knowledge of the WTC towers, so it is anecdotal in nature and not "evidence" that I can disclose here, I'm afraid. Therefore, I do not expect you - or anyone - to take my word for it or accept it as "evidence", naturally, but I do suggest that you also consult experts on elevator design, repair and maintenance in order to educate yourself about the subject matter, which will help inform your conclusions.

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
i thoroughly debunked the magic fireball theory and the jet fuel theory.
No, you did no such thing.

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
the 15 seconds is a guestimate:
And is, therefore, more useless as "evidence" as my anecdotal evidence above.

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
the problem for you to explain is how jet fuel could travel down 90+floors to b1 quicker than car 50. i think its impossible. and i think when you think about it you will think the same as me
I do not accept your premise that the jet fuel had to "travel down 90+ floors to B1 quicker than car 50" because your premise is not sufficiently grounded on evidence. Therefore, it should go without saying that I do not accept your assertion that this is something I have to "explain" and it should go without saying that I do not "think the same as [you]" about the matter.

The reality is that the preponderance of the evidence supports the conclusion that there were fires and fireballs travelling through the cores of the towers by way of elevator shafts, utility shafts, mechanical shafts, etc. and that these caused damage, destruction and horrible deaths. I do not understand why you choose to ignore reality in favour of a fanciful and, frankly, delusional view of the events, but you are, of course, free to do so. Just don't try selling that fanciful, unfounded view as reality.


Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
well since you talked with all these experts perhaps you can easily explain why i am wrong. specifically address my post 207 but i have others in this thread on shaft to shaft transfer of jet fuel.

As I have said previously, it seems that you do not understand the difference between hoistways and shafts, and you continue to labour under the misconception that each hoistway operated within a separate shaft. This is not accurate.


Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
with respect however your above rant is not an argumnet.
I do not think it's accurate to characterize my post as a "rant". A fair reading of it will show it to be quite calm, polite, and rational.

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
your basically saying go talk to some experts and your falsly assuming of course, that they will agree with you!
I suggested that you should talk to some experts because you have repeatedly made assertions that are unsupported and untenable, because you have repeatedly demonstrated that you are unaware of even basic information about the subject matter (i.e. you seem not to comprehend even the basic but very important difference between a "hoistway" and a "shaft"), and because doing so would help you to understand how elevator systems are designed and how they work in tall buildings.

And, no, I am not "falsly[sic] assuming of course, that they will agree with [me]" As any good researcher would do, I consulted with relevant and qualified experts on the subject matter before offering my views on it. I am suggesting that you would benefit from doing the same.


Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
look i can read floor plans and the shafts did not vertically go from basemnt to ceiling. this means that jet fuel had to pass horizontally at some point. go read my post #207 and if your interested in serious debate then address the points i made as opposed to "go talk to the experts" approach.
If you can read the floor plans, you must acknowledge that there were elevator shafts that went from the sub-basements to the impact zones, (more in the south tower than the north). And you still seem to be a bit confused about the difference between shafts and hoistways. Also, as previously noted, there were also mechanical and utility shafts that ran from the sub-basements to the impact zones.

It is disingenuous to ignore the totality of the components that contributed to the distribution of jet fuel throughout the buildings, and to ignore reality.

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
now ask yourself, what if people below this area with no shaft were incinerated from a fireball. how would you explain that to their family members? the official story hinges on fireballs travelling down shafts!!!!!! do you see the problem i have with acceoting the official story?
Are you suggesting that there were people killed by fire in locations where fire did not and could not exist? I'm not sure I'm following this particular hypothetical question/argument of yours but it looks like a red herring or non sequitur at first blush. Can you please clarify what it is that you are suggesting here?

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
so with all your knowledge on the subject why dont YOU go read my post#237 and try and debunk it. i BET a shiney penny you cant.
As I said above, I do not accept the faulty premise upon which your prior post is based. Unless and until you can support your theory with facts and evidence rather than unfounded supposition and speculation, there is nothing to debunk.

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
listen this a forum for rational discourse not silly baseless conjecture.
Damn, where's my irony meter when I need it?

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
until then your wasting my time and yours with these non productive opinions
Oh, here it is.

Last edited by LashL; 23rd May 2008 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 24th May 2008, 12:22 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
DGM? missing in action
Johnny Karate? missing in action
Gumboot? a.w.o.l
lashl? missing in action
jonnyclueness?
aggle-rithem?

Don't flatter yourself, thewholesoul. Perhaps unlike yourself, most of us work for a living in addition to having rather full, busy and active lives outside of this sub-forum. We get around to you when we get around to you, if and when time permits and if and when we feel like it. Threads have a long shelf life here, so it is quite silly to claim that someone is "missing in action" or "awol" just because they haven't posted as quickly as you might have liked. Sheesh, how juvenile.

Last edited by LashL; 24th May 2008 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 24th May 2008, 09:02 AM   #277
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thewholesoul? missing in action
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Old 24th May 2008, 09:39 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
hey aggle

i appreciate your post. but you are wrong go to my post#237 it debunks both the fireball and jet fuel hypothesis and ALL your explanations below. a bold statement i know so go prove me wrong - tackle post #237
Okay, see below.

Quote:
i just want to address one explanation.

you say that Morelli was thrown to the ground from the impact of a plane 90+ floors above!!

if your going to address post 237 with logic you will face a lot of difficulties.

you know that people on the 91st floor didnt even feel the imapct 2 floors above? and your saying that Morelli 90+ floors below the imapct was thrown to the ground.
The impact had secondary effects. It appears, from the evidence, that a blast wave traveled all the way down the elevator shaft, following the path of least resistance. Once it found an oxygen supply, the jet fuel ignited.

There is evidence that this happened; there is no evidence of an explosive device.

Quote:
to make matters worse you use CAP LOCKS to express your absurdity
(shrug) It's faster than the bold or italics tags. Does it confuse you?

Quote:
perhaps you watch too much television my friend?
Undoubtedly. But I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Quote:
where is the rebuttal to post 237 from anyone in this room

DGM? missing in action
Johnny Karate? missing in action
Gumboot? a.w.o.l
lashl? missing in action
jonnyclueness?
aggle-rithem?

LETS HAVE IT DEBUNKERS I PROVED YOUR HYPOTHESIS IMPOSSIBLE ARE YOU GOING TO LIE DOWN AND IGNORE IT?

IS THERE NO-ONE IN THIS ROOM THAT CAN CHALLENGE POST 237?

peace
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
Below I will debunk Gumboot using testimony and a little common sense.

....snip.....

so gumboot, i will waiting for your response. and please avoid ducking or avoiding the main problems i.e. the arguments that prove your JREF unofficial explanation - IMPOSSIBLE

peace
Prior to 9/11, we have no precedent for a large, fully-fueled airliner crashing into a building. It is not at all surprising that there were counter-intuitive events in the wake of the crash.

Now: Please present your evidence that explosives were used. All the metal in the WTC was examined by experts; no-one noticed any evidence of explosives.
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Old 24th May 2008, 11:26 AM   #279
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The WTC 1 Third Floor Burned Out Elevator

Throughout this thread the thewholesoule has posted three accounts that he believes are evidence of fireballs in elevator shafts that did not lead all the way up to the aircraft impact zone of WTC 1. Therefore jet fuel could not have entered these shafts, something he believes can be used to support his belief about bombs in the basement of WTC 1. But the three accounts does not support thewholesoul's point of view at all. I will cover the three accounts in separate posts for readability.

The first one is:
Quote:
Lobby & 3rd floor: Firefighter Peter Blaich
As we got to the third floor of the B stairway, we forced open an elevator door which was burnt on all three sides. The only thing that was remaining was the hoistway door. And inside the elevator were about I didn’t recognize them initially, but a guy from 1 Truck said oh my God, those are people. They were pretty incinerated. And I remember the overpowering smell of kerosene. That’s when Lieutenant Foti said oh, that’s the jet fuel. I remember it smelled like if you’re camping and you drop a kerosene lamp.
For source see: http://911stories.googlepages.com/in...ccounts%2Clobb

An inspection of the third floor core plan tells us that this elevator very likely must have been freight elevator #49. That is the first elevator the firefighters would encounter when they came out of the B stairway. There is no surprise at all that the #49 elevator would have been burned by the jet fuel in that position, since elevators #49 and #50 ran inside the same shaft from B1 to Floor 74. There was no separating wall between them. What we see in the drawing is just a beam.


For readability I have labeled the relevant elevators and stairway with red letters.
The complete blue print is hosted on the conspiracy theory site 9-11 Reasearch: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evid...ans/table.html
It is labeled "3rdFloorCorePlan". (Readers who are not familiar with the blueprints will find a list of the abbreviations used in the blueprints in the file labeled "FinishScheduelZone1_2_3". While the file labeled "FinishScheduleZone5_7" contains a list of the material keys and symbols used in the drawings. Relevant elevator plans are labeled "Shuttle_FreightElevatorsRiser_PlotPlan" and "FreightElevator48_49_50_ElevationsSecondary_Machi neRoomPlans".)

In other words the third floor burned out elevator inside WTC 1 does not support thewholesoule's point of view at all. It just supports the well established fact from day one that jet fuel went down the elevator shafts from the impact zone with tragic consequences, nothing odd at all.
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Old 24th May 2008, 11:33 AM   #280
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hey all just learnin g how to inert link

http://science.howstuffworks.com/elevator3.htm
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